Guild Wars 2

Why does the class balance team not talk with the players? I can understand all other teams not doing it too much, but the balance team should talk and discuss with the players on the forum A LOT.

With 2 people they can’t master/fully understand every class, they need help from the (top)players.

ATM it is going downhill in a race carr. As an example, I think ’’every’’ player would have told them not to give necro more conditions.
I’m seriously thinking that they should bring everything back to how it was when gw2 launched (exept for the bugs ofc). And change stuff from there on with help from the players.

This is not a ’’I’m sooooo angry, I hate them’’ thread.
This is a ’’I’m really concerned’’ thread.

Because as they stated something like: “we would rather work for you, than talk to you while we could be delivering you the stuff you want"

Basically what I think they mean is they dont have a lot of time, and the little time they got they could be working on the features rather than telling us that they are doing X and why, thus having no time to actually work on said features.

Thats the thing, yeah we know they dont talk to us because they are always busy working on balancement, but surely I am not the only one who would be willing to wait an extra month if they talk with us and make sure they dont overdo some changes (for example im sure many people saw giving necros burn was a bad idea).

Balance is crucial for a serious pvp game, so i think balance team should interact more with players (top) and forum. If they have not time to do this, they need to structure better this team, pvp coordinator is a good role but there need to be another pvp coordinataor specifically dedicated for balance.

It’s too much important.

PS I appreciate a lot Allie but i think this area needs a lot of attention, is real important.

To understand really well pvp mechanics you need to play A LOT of hours in tpvp matches, so i think devs can’t do this alone, top player support is really crucial.

And i think this community has really good players with brain that can judge very well metagame and its weakness.

I don’t buy the “it detracts from our jobs” argument. Seriously, how long does it take to respondto a question? How large does a post have to get in order to contain a small “we plan to bla bla” list?
Yes, I am aware that every communique needs to go through some sort of a PR department, but the PR department is not working on the balance changes, it does PR.

There should be a PTR/S (Public test realm/server) where they load proposed PvP changes into for testing before rolling them out. The playerbase is much better suited to generate consistent data, and honest players giving their feedback would expose OP FOTM builds quickly. We could give our feedback and interact with the Dev’s based on our experience there. It works extremely well in other situations, and those games aren’t even trying to be an esport.

agreed. they always keep it secret till the last moment and then booom, we are stuck with a terrible meta, mesmers and warriors are still weak, ele got also put to the bottom and spvp is all about 4 classes now(necro, ranger, engi, thief). i dont feel like playing spvp atm, due to my main class, not being viable.

meanwhile warriors, necros, thieves in wvw dominate more and more, while mesmers and eles hit bottom there aswell. alone the fact that they don’t split wvw and spvp balance, shows that the balance team seems to be overwhelmed.

then they make runes that outshines every confusion mesmer in the game and gives it to every class in the game that has interrupts, tormenting runes that they hotfixed, because they realized that engis could get perma 25 stacks of torment, then they nerf some classes pretty hard while giving other classes big buffs at the same time. of course this is gonna end up in a new imbalance!

idk if anet even plays all classes. they make changes based on numbers and then they are surprised when one classe becomes op while others become up.

warrior is not weak its one of the stronger classes in the current meta almost unbeatable in duels.

Devs activity has dropped down again. Seems like we have to buy Jonathan Sharp another ticket to China

yeah warriors are pretty strong and part of the meta in wvw atm. and with the new rune they will be the new confusion class too, but im sure that one will get nerfed.
but sometimes it feels like anet has been favoring certain classes and disslike certain classes, or they really are lost with balancing the classes. i think they have get someone new into their balance team. someone that doesnet know all the classes yet, someone that will analize the stuff in a different way or maybe somone that plays all classes and doesnt pick favourites.

Yah no. That would kitten up this game even more. The majority of people in this game have no sense about balance. Even in this thread we have someone calling warriors OP and almost unbeatable in 1v1s. While in the real world no team would ever dare run with a warrior. A public test server is a great idea that is why every other mmo out currently has one.

Derps.7421:

Yah no. That would kitten up this game even more. The majority of people in this game have no sense about balance. Even in this thread we have someone calling warriors OP and almost unbeatable in 1v1s. While in the real world no team would ever dare run with a warrior. A public test server is a great idea that is why every other mmo out currently has one.

yeah in spvp warriors are definitely not op at all. in wvw warriors are more top tier atm though,but i think in spvp things need to change in order to get warriors, that arent perma cc’ing, into at least middle tier. right now warriors, mesmers and eles are bottom and then there is a long long gap, till the other tiers are reached.
the warrior that destroys u u will only meet in wvw.

we need test servers! such terrible metas would have never existed if they would have allowed us to test it and look at it now: mesmers, eles and warriors will not be part of any tournaments. anet uses numbers and assumes that how they can balance it. how about the balance team plays EVERY CLASS in spvp and then in wvw and then they might see where the problems are!

I dont know if anet have a balance team some times it feel like thay dont care for spvp or as if thay give up balance to some high school self learner programer who is drunk/hihg all the time.Think about it befor spirti rangars it was necros befor thenm it was BM rangar befor this it was s/d tihef and befor the thief i think it was the trap rangar i realy cant remember tho do you see the pathern here. Yes alot of ppl on forums dont know anything for class balance wen they get killd several times from some one who is bether then them its omg your op or your cheating perhaps this is why anet dosont read the forum but seriosly for who do you amke this game anet ??? Pople constantly disaggre with the changes you do!! There will aways be some one who will not be happe there is no way out of this but BUT seriorsly you cant make same mistakes over and over again buffing one class to the point wich it ruls the game.My sugestion is get new blood in your balance team nerf alittle necro and a bit more rnagas and then think long and kitten your next balance post your thouth on the forum so you know hwat ppl think and realy do some testing befor release it becouse comunity at large dosont have much patience left.
Beta test surver will be some lith in the tunnel.Give acces to top teams and high rank plears ( like top 400 and rank 45+ ). See what happes.
Put bether rewards for pvp so far your giving evry cool thing for pve. Give more achivment points for pvp achivments it takes weeks to get a champ title yet you get few achivments for it.Ye alot of pvp ppl dont care for achivments but it will be a start to pull more ppl to pvp !!

I cannot imagine the signal:noise ratio would make such an endeavor worthwhile.

Basically because players make the worst designers possible. You could literally pull random dudes off the street and get a better balanced outcome than you could by asking players.

That’s why I wouldn’t anyway.

I think this is not the best idea, to talk with players, because those pepole who get involved by those talkes, will not be allowed to talk about, but they will know the changes bevor others do, this can cause i big advantage for them.

And i totally agree witht he fact, that players of gw2 are not the best disgners, because we dont see the game form above, we dont have the view that they have. But i agree that it would be awesome to get more answers from them to our ideas and posts.

Yeah but the balance team is kittening stuff up. So it’s worth a try imo.

Yeah, they should really participate actively in community-driven initiatives you know, like discussing during podcasts with top players/shoutcasters.
…
Wait a minute ?

Ouroboros.5076:

Yeah, they should really participate actively in community-driven initiatives you know, like discussing during podcasts with top players/shoutcasters.
…
Wait a minute ?

Where in the world have you ever seen a DISCUSSION? Lol

All I ever seen in SotG was kitten -licking. X player says something, everyone else nods. Rinse and repeat for every other member that is going to speak.

There’s not enough balance explanations in depth, the “explanations” given all feel so shallow.

And then the balance notes come. Thats another problem. In other games, they have a note at the most important balance changes (eg. We brought down X damage because Y and also because of Z) EXPLAINING WHY THEY DID WHAT THEY DID, where is this happening in GW2?

Yeah, it’s not happening. Not the mention the ninja balance-changes they do and don’t list on the patch notes. This whole balancing process seems like its made by 5-6 different people that have no communication with each other.

Quickfoot Katana.8642:

All I ever seen in SotG was kitten -licking. X player says something, everyone else nods. Rinse and repeat for every other member that is going to speak.

There’s not enough balance explanations in depth, the “explanations” given all feel so shallow.

And then the balance notes come. Thats another problem. In other games, they have a note at the most important balance changes (eg. We brought down X damage because Y and also because of Z) EXPLAINING WHY THEY DID WHAT THEY DID, where is this happening in GW2?

Yeah, it’s not happening. Not the mention the ninja balance-changes they do and don’t list on the patch notes. This whole balancing process seems like its made by 5-6 different people that have no communication with each other.

You know what’s funny? They did it right in gw1. Each balance patch was previewed with a list of its purposes and some possible expected changes, explaining what they wanted to archive and head to with balance.

This is, for instance, the last balance patch gw1 had.
http://www.guildwars.com/gameplay/developer_updates/september_2012_skill_balances.php

^
Not to be mean, but that’s almost the single update of the year, 7 years after release. Probably an update on which they worked for months and that completely changed the class. With all that, sure, they had the time to take 5 days writing a huge blog post and get the translations before releasing it.

Sorry mate, GW2 updates goes at a MUCH faster pace. There’s just no time for this. And there has not been such a drastic change to any class like that. Really irrelevant.

Ouroboros.5076:

^
Not to be mean, but that’s almost the single update of the year, 7 years after release. Probably an update on which they worked for months and that completely changed the class. With all that, sure, they had the time to take 5 days writing a huge blog post and get the translations before releasing it.

Sorry mate, GW2 updates goes at a MUCH faster pace. There’s just no time for this. And there has not been such a drastic change to any class like that. Really unrelevant.

You sure?
What about the big june patch? It was pretty much gamechanging.

Also:
22 May 2011 patch: http://guildwars.com/gameplay/developer_updates/may_2011_skill_balances.php
2 June 2011 patch:
http://guildwars.com/gameplay/developer_updates/june_2011_pvp_update.php

11 days.

Every balance patch had its own developers updates page, with full documentation and explaination of every change.

Just check this page:
http://guildwars.com/support/gameupdates/default.php

GW1 has had that for a while now, it isn’t like they just started detailing their patches on the sunset of the game…
Sometimes I can’t believe it is the same studio that did both games…

This entire thread is literally a double-edged sword. From experience, when Devs are b@lls deep with the community, and not getting what they want, all you hear is “get back to the drawing board and actually work!”

But, when the Devs are working their kitten of, and not as open with the community, we QQ and ask for more communication.

It has been openly said; MULTIPLE TIMES, that after Pax has been settled you WILL see balance patches.

“We don’t believe in changing too much prior to a major tourny we’re invested in.” -Peters

Now, so you know, the Devs are always fishing through streams and forums looking for feedback. As a matter of fact, think about every class/spec we’ve considered OP since launch. They have been fixed/changed/balanced to meet the communities requests. It will be NO different from the current meta as well.

Slack is needed, QQ is not.

^Nice try Jon Peters

The real question is, are a lot of the players worth talking to? I argue with people a lot on these forums, and I do this for a very simple reason: I think they are wrong and their way of thinking is destructive to the game.

And I have to do this on so many different issues. Now, I assume that Anet sees at least half of the problems I see, and half of the problems I don’t see. So, when players are demanding something unreasonable or not thought out, the devs communicating with that player will ultimately result in the bureaucratic equivalent of telling them to stop whining. And no player wants to hear that from mean ole’ Anet.

If we assume Anet doesn’t just dismiss everything other players say, then we have to consider that Anet can choose to listen to the wrong players for the wrong reason. It ticked many necromancer’s off when a thread giving a one-sided analysis on Necros became popular with the devs largely because it was made by a somewhat famous tPVP player.

We also have to consider that some players are wholly misrepresented on these forums. I didn’t hear hide nor hair from the perspective of a spirit ranger until very recently. The weeks up until that point had been full of nothing but players complaining the ranger was OP, and other players claiming they didn’t have much issue fighting the rangers. This means that spirit rangers aren’t really going to the forums all that much, so we don’t get their perspective on that issue.

Misrepresentation is a bigger problem than you would think. Certain kinds of forums attract a very specific kind of person; usually those who are belligerent enough to start arguments, exhibitionist, likes to write and express themselves, and so on. You’re never going to get an appropriate representation of people, let alone whether the representations you get are intelligent or accurate. I mean, what if the lone guy defending some build like Stun Warriors happens to not be very smart, and can’t see the fallacies and logical gymnastics other players are using to call him the devil?

QtVain.5803:

This entire thread is literally a double-edged sword. From experience, when Devs are b@lls deep with the community, and not getting what they want, all you hear is “get back to the drawing board and actually work!”

But, when the Devs are working their kitten of, and not as open with the community, we QQ and ask for more communication.

It has been openly said; MULTIPLE TIMES, that after Pax has been settled you WILL see balance patches.

“We don’t believe in changing too much prior to a major tourny we’re invested in.” -Peters

Now, so you know, the Devs are always fishing through streams and forums looking for feedback. As a matter of fact, think about every class/spec we’ve considered OP since launch. They have been fixed/changed/balanced to meet the communities requests. It will be NO different from the current meta as well.

Slack is needed, QQ is not.

1 = you don’t know how hard they work…
2 = "all you hear is “get back to the drawing board and actually work!” " — So because some players say that, that is what “the community” thinks?
3 = no QQ"er yet. Your first one in the thread. :/
4 = “We don’t believe in changing too much prior to a major tourny we’re invested in.” -Peters -- they broke that statement
5 = i’m sure they look at the forums, but yet have to see something of it being used

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

The real question is, are a lot of the players worth talking to?

While it would be cool if they listened to some of us, I’d be happy with the “we think this is currently OP/UP/bugged, so we’re working on it” approach. You know, just so we get a glimpse of what sort of gameplay they’re aiming for, instead of trying to recreate it blindly after the patch hits.
I hate comparing devs to devs, but it’s fitting in this situation. Riot does a great job of communicating their intentions and their plans for champions, items and maps weeks, if not months in advance.

Dragonar.1342:

QtVain.5803:

This entire thread is literally a double-edged sword. From experience, when Devs are b@lls deep with the community, and not getting what they want, all you hear is “get back to the drawing board and actually work!”

But, when the Devs are working their kitten of, and not as open with the community, we QQ and ask for more communication.

It has been openly said; MULTIPLE TIMES, that after Pax has been settled you WILL see balance patches.

“We don’t believe in changing too much prior to a major tourny we’re invested in.” -Peters

Now, so you know, the Devs are always fishing through streams and forums looking for feedback. As a matter of fact, think about every class/spec we’ve considered OP since launch. They have been fixed/changed/balanced to meet the communities requests. It will be NO different from the current meta as well.

Slack is needed, QQ is not.

1 = you don’t know how hard they work…
2 = "all you hear is “get back to the drawing board and actually work!” " — So because some players say that, that is what “the community” thinks?
3 = no QQ"er yet. Your first one in the thread. :/
4 = “We don’t believe in changing too much prior to a major tourny we’re invested in.” -Peters -- they broke that statement
5 = i’m sure they look at the forums, but yet have to see something of it being used

yeah true not too many changes were expected until the tourny was over….unfortunately that change meant no mesmers.(we had no chance with this meta) and necro has turened into a beast in spvp and wvw, and thats not ok. this tourney pretty much messed up the whole balance.

The Boz.2038:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

The real question is, are a lot of the players worth talking to?

While it would be cool if they listened to some of us, I’d be happy with the “we think this is currently OP/UP/bugged, so we’re working on it” approach. You know, just so we get a glimpse of what sort of gameplay they’re aiming for, instead of trying to recreate it blindly after the patch hits.
I hate comparing devs to devs, but it’s fitting in this situation. Riot does a great job of communicating their intentions and their plans for champions, items and maps weeks, if not months in advance.

There we go. See the problem? Riot is in charge of only one “game”. Guild Wars 2 doesn’t have the same success LoL does, and besides, it’s separated into three different “games”.

Lower budget + lower amount of devs responsible for balance = Misconception

Unless they up the PvP teams’ resources that sort of things is NOT going to happen anytime soon.

Well, if you want it like that, they’ve also separated their game into FOUR completely different PvP modes and two modes vs AI that they don’t seem to care much about.

It’s not even close to being the same thing. Don’t compare the two things.

1 is a MOBA. 1 is a MMO. Guess which one is more resource heavy.

…I would assume the more resource-heavy is the game with the larger playerbase by an order of magnitude…

Assumes the mob has logic, most of the time it doesn’t.

We need to bring in the PvE and PvP Test Krewe’s again.

Dragonar.1342:

QtVain.5803:

This entire thread is literally a double-edged sword. From experience, when Devs are b@lls deep with the community, and not getting what they want, all you hear is “get back to the drawing board and actually work!”

But, when the Devs are working their kitten of, and not as open with the community, we QQ and ask for more communication.

It has been openly said; MULTIPLE TIMES, that after Pax has been settled you WILL see balance patches.

“We don’t believe in changing too much prior to a major tourny we’re invested in.” -Peters

Now, so you know, the Devs are always fishing through streams and forums looking for feedback. As a matter of fact, think about every class/spec we’ve considered OP since launch. They have been fixed/changed/balanced to meet the communities requests. It will be NO different from the current meta as well.

Slack is needed, QQ is not.

1 = you don’t know how hard they work…
2 = "all you hear is “get back to the drawing board and actually work!” " — So because some players say that, that is what “the community” thinks?
3 = no QQ"er yet. Your first one in the thread. :/
4 = “We don’t believe in changing too much prior to a major tourny we’re invested in.” -Peters -- they broke that statement
5 = i’m sure they look at the forums, but yet have to see something of it being used

Fortunately, I do know how hard they work. I have a couple friends who have recently been employed by ANET, and talking to them alone has filled me in on that.

They haven’t broken the statement about balance patches prior to the tourny? I’m really not quite sure where you’re getting your info. This is actually why this thread is coming up in the first place, lol.

BTW, “Class Balance” team does talk with the players. I’m not sure if you’re aware, but they do include themselves in SOTG’s. Actually, that is exactly what SOTGs are meant for.

“I’m not getting what I want. I must throw tantrums.” -GW2 Community

Only reaction possible to this.
Not going to react anymore.

if they have people they talk to and employ to give them imputs, i sure hope that each class gets a fair representative. maybe choose someone from the podcasts. those people have a lot of good input.
we need people that are active in the class communities and are mature and realistic.
i think recruiting people from SOAC would be great, as all classes have amazing representative.