The biggest problem with the pip system

The biggest problem with the pip system

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Posted by: Malediktus.9250

Malediktus.9250

The biggest problem with the current pip system is that it rewards winstreaks more than non winstreaks, even if both equals a 50% winrate.
Lets see (w= win, d= defeat)
P1: W D W D W D W D = 0 pips
P2: D D D D W W W W = 7 pips
P1: W D W D W D W D W D W D W D W D = 0 pips
P2: D D D D W W W W D D D D W W W W = 11 pips
Both models show a 50% winrate, but the 2nd player is 11 pips ahead despite having the same win rate as the 1st player. It is imposible to say that player 2 is better than player 1, yet he is still ahead over 2 tiers.

Conclusion: The old system where you could gain -3 to +3 pips per match was a lot better.

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(edited by Malediktus.9250)

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Posted by: Pure Heart.1456

Pure Heart.1456

A related concept is that it’s sometimes better to lose 3 matches in a row.

For example, starting from zero pips (after a losing streak and then winning) gets you two pips, so you only need 3 wins in a row to hit next tier.

However, if you’re at 1 pip, you need to win -4- matches in a row so statistically it’s harder to hit next tier than in the example of starting from zero pips.

Lame.

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Posted by: BrotherBelial.3094

BrotherBelial.3094

A related concept is that it’s sometimes better to lose 3 matches in a row.

For example, starting from zero pips (after a losing streak and then winning) gets you two pips, so you only need 3 wins in a row to hit next tier.

However, if you’re at 1 pip, you need to win -4- matches in a row so statistically it’s harder to hit next tier than in the example of starting from zero pips.

Lame.

Indeed. When ever I’ve found my self on my third match after Two losses. I pray my team will be bad so the next match I can get 2 pips and only have to string 3 wins together. But with that said, I’ve never thrown a match. It would not be fair on the other players.

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Posted by: Daroon.1736

Daroon.1736

A related concept is that it’s sometimes better to lose 3 matches in a row.

For example, starting from zero pips (after a losing streak and then winning) gets you two pips, so you only need 3 wins in a row to hit next tier.

However, if you’re at 1 pip, you need to win -4- matches in a row so statistically it’s harder to hit next tier than in the example of starting from zero pips.

Lame.

Indeed. When ever I’ve found my self on my third match after Two losses. I pray my team will be bad so the next match I can get 2 pips and only have to string 3 wins together. But with that said, I’ve never thrown a match. It would not be fair on the other players.

Indeed, I pointed this out in a thread at the start of the season
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/AFK-is-back/first#post6003788

Nice to see you have a similar attitude to not throwing games as I do, but sadly I fear this attitude is not the prevalent one and along with the **** matchmaking and lack of action by Anet,. has contributed to the situation where afk’ing during matches is now becoming an ‘acceptable’ norm.

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Posted by: Celeras.4980

Celeras.4980

A related concept is that it’s sometimes better to lose 3 matches in a row.

For example, starting from zero pips (after a losing streak and then winning) gets you two pips, so you only need 3 wins in a row to hit next tier.

However, if you’re at 1 pip, you need to win -4- matches in a row so statistically it’s harder to hit next tier than in the example of starting from zero pips.

Lame.

Indeed, I pointed this out in a thread at the start of the season
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/AFK-is-back/first#post6003788

Nice to see you have a similar attitude to not throwing games as I do, but sadly I fear this attitude is not the prevalent one and along with the **** matchmaking and lack of action by Anet,. has contributed to the situation where afk’ing during matches is now becoming an ‘acceptable’ norm.

Are you guys serious? This is never the case. Ever. Even if you’re at a checkpoint in the irrelevant lowbie brackets that nobody cares about. It is NEVER better to lose for a losing streak than it is to win.

You can’t just say “yeah I only need 3 wins” and completely disregard the LOSS it took to give you the losing streak. Yeah, without a losing streak its 4 wins to get 5 pips. But in order to get the losing streak, you first have to LOSE. AKA L-W-W-W. AKA 4 games.

It’s not complicated. It’s a benefit for you if you already lost. It is never better to lose for the streak.

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Posted by: BrotherBelial.3094

BrotherBelial.3094

A related concept is that it’s sometimes better to lose 3 matches in a row.

For example, starting from zero pips (after a losing streak and then winning) gets you two pips, so you only need 3 wins in a row to hit next tier.

However, if you’re at 1 pip, you need to win -4- matches in a row so statistically it’s harder to hit next tier than in the example of starting from zero pips.

Lame.

Indeed, I pointed this out in a thread at the start of the season
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/AFK-is-back/first#post6003788

Nice to see you have a similar attitude to not throwing games as I do, but sadly I fear this attitude is not the prevalent one and along with the **** matchmaking and lack of action by Anet,. has contributed to the situation where afk’ing during matches is now becoming an ‘acceptable’ norm.

Are you guys serious? This is never the case. Ever. Even if you’re at a checkpoint in the irrelevant lowbie brackets that nobody cares about. It is NEVER better to lose for a losing streak than it is to win.

You can’t just say “yeah I only need 3 wins” and completely disregard the LOSS it took to give you the losing streak. Yeah, without a losing streak its 4 wins to get 5 pips. But in order to get the losing streak, you first have to LOSE. AKA L-W-W-W. AKA 4 games.

It’s not complicated. It’s a benefit for you if you already lost. It is never better to lose for the streak.

Yes, 4 wins to get 5 pips, or if you are losing, some people seem to think, lose 3, then they need to win 3 to get 5 pips. So you can see why some people do this.

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Posted by: Pure Heart.1456

Pure Heart.1456

A related concept is that it’s sometimes better to lose 3 matches in a row.

For example, starting from zero pips (after a losing streak and then winning) gets you two pips, so you only need 3 wins in a row to hit next tier.

However, if you’re at 1 pip, you need to win -4- matches in a row so statistically it’s harder to hit next tier than in the example of starting from zero pips.

Lame.

Indeed, I pointed this out in a thread at the start of the season
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/AFK-is-back/first#post6003788

Nice to see you have a similar attitude to not throwing games as I do, but sadly I fear this attitude is not the prevalent one and along with the **** matchmaking and lack of action by Anet,. has contributed to the situation where afk’ing during matches is now becoming an ‘acceptable’ norm.

Are you guys serious? This is never the case. Ever. Even if you’re at a checkpoint in the irrelevant lowbie brackets that nobody cares about. It is NEVER better to lose for a losing streak than it is to win.

You can’t just say “yeah I only need 3 wins” and completely disregard the LOSS it took to give you the losing streak. Yeah, without a losing streak its 4 wins to get 5 pips. But in order to get the losing streak, you first have to LOSE. AKA L-W-W-W. AKA 4 games.

It’s not complicated. It’s a benefit for you if you already lost. It is never better to lose for the streak.

No, I’m sorry it is better to lose. Because this is a gamble, not a game of skill. The wins and losses are givens in a random system. You don’t control the wins or losses. If it was all about skill, then you’re closer to being right, but it ain’t that.

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Posted by: PowerBottom.5796

PowerBottom.5796

Both the winstreaks and not being able to loose pips at 0 pips of a new division (or even tier) makes the order of your wins much too important. S2 is IMHO much better than S1, but it’s still a very flawed system that needs a complete rework.

Just give us back tournaments or implement a working ELO-system.

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Posted by: Celeras.4980

Celeras.4980

Yes, 4 wins to get 5 pips, or if you are losing, some people seem to think, lose 3, then they need to win 3 to get 5 pips. So you can see why some people do this.

Sorry, those people are idiots. It is always, 100%, the same number of games at best. There is zero benefit to losing intentionally and there is no argument to the contrary. Counting to 5 isn’t complicated math.

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Posted by: Deniara Devious.3948

Deniara Devious.3948

The old pip system used in Season 1 was far better as I have commented in multiple threads.

Deniara / Ayna – I want the original WvWvW maps back – Desolation [EU]

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Posted by: BrotherBelial.3094

BrotherBelial.3094

Yes, 4 wins to get 5 pips, or if you are losing, some people seem to think, lose 3, then they need to win 3 to get 5 pips. So you can see why some people do this.

Sorry, those people are idiots. It is always, 100%, the same number of games at best. There is zero benefit to losing intentionally and there is no argument to the contrary. Counting to 5 isn’t complicated math.

Never said it was, but it is easier to win 3 games than 4. And if by winning 3 games you can get the same amount of pips as 4, well you must be able to see why some people do it. Like I said, if you’ve lost 2 games already, winning the next will not be of any great benefit in some peoples eyes.

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Posted by: Pure Heart.1456

Pure Heart.1456

Yes, 4 wins to get 5 pips, or if you are losing, some people seem to think, lose 3, then they need to win 3 to get 5 pips. So you can see why some people do this.

Sorry, those people are idiots. It is always, 100%, the same number of games at best. There is zero benefit to losing intentionally and there is no argument to the contrary. Counting to 5 isn’t complicated math.

People with mindsets like yours are why the gaming experience is so kittening awful. As ‘beautiful’ or ‘correct’ as the math or programming might be, human experience doesn’t correlate.

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Posted by: Yasi.9065

Yasi.9065

You have 5 pips, you loose 2 due to defeats. Now you are at 3 pips.

Now there’s two ways:
1. Loose next match and win after -> down to 2 pips, up to 4 pips
2. Win next match -> up to 4 pips

First method is risky, you might not win that match after throwing the third match, which lets you loose more pips.
Second method is also better because you can get back on winning streak one match sooner.

I dont even know why this could be any kind of issue. Its so glaringly obvious.

(edited by Yasi.9065)

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Posted by: BrotherBelial.3094

BrotherBelial.3094

You have 5 pips, you loose 2 due to defeats. Now you are at 3 pips.

Now there’s two ways:
1. Loose next match and win after -> down to 2 pips, up to 4 pips
2. Win next match -> up to 4 pips

First method is risky, you might not win that match after throwing the third match, which lets you loose more pips.
Second method is also better because you can get back on winning streak one match sooner.

I dont even know why this could be any kind of issue. Its so glaringly obvious.

If only we could individually control what matches we win. I always aim to win. Sadly that’s not what always happens, from my personal experience with the league, I’ve had more luck stringing 3 wins together to move up than 4. My wins streaks have only been as big as 7, next biggest is 6. I’ve only had these win streaks once each. The current league set up is very demoralizing for the average pvp player. I know I’m not as positive heading in to matches as I was at the start of the season. If I was to make it in to ruby tomorrow, I’d probably stop playing the league there and then.

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Posted by: Malediktus.9250

Malediktus.9250

You have 5 pips, you loose 2 due to defeats. Now you are at 3 pips.

Now there’s two ways:
1. Loose next match and win after -> down to 2 pips, up to 4 pips
2. Win next match -> up to 4 pips

First method is risky, you might not win that match after throwing the third match, which lets you loose more pips.
Second method is also better because you can get back on winning streak one match sooner.

I dont even know why this could be any kind of issue. Its so glaringly obvious.

Exactly this

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Posted by: antichecker.1675

antichecker.1675

You have 5 pips, you loose 2 due to defeats. Now you are at 3 pips.

Now there’s two ways:
1. Loose next match and win after -> down to 2 pips, up to 4 pips
2. Win next match -> up to 4 pips

First method is risky, you might not win that match after throwing the third match, which lets you loose more pips.
Second method is also better because you can get back on winning streak one match sooner.

I dont even know why this could be any kind of issue. Its so glaringly obvious.

Thank you for point out exactly what I was thinking while reading this nonsense. I really wonder how mindless some ppl can be.
Losing the 3rd consecutive game on purpose is never a better option than winning it.

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Posted by: Trevor Boyer.6524

Trevor Boyer.6524

The biggest problem with the current pip system is that it rewards winstreaks more than non winstreaks, even if both equals a 50% winrate.
Lets see (w= win, d= defeat)
P1: W D W D W D W D = 0 pips
P2: D D D D W W W W = 7 pips
P1: W D W D W D W D W D W D W D W D = 0 pips
P2: D D D D W W W W D D D D W W W W = 11 pips
Both models show a 50% winrate, but the 2nd player is 11 pips ahead despite having the same win rate as the 1st player. It is imposible to say that player 2 is better than player 1, yet he is still ahead over 2 tiers.

Conclusion: The old system where you could gain -3 to +3 pips per match was a lot better.

I see what you’re saying but did you purposely leave out the negative integers from defeats? the numbers should look more like this:

P1: W+1, D-1, W+1, D-1, W+1, D-1, W+1, D-1 = 0 pips
P2: D-1, D-1, D-1, D-1, W+2, W+1, W+2, W+2 = +3 pips
P1: W, D, W, D, W, D W, D, W, D, W, D, W, D, W, D would be = 0 pips
P2: D, D, D, D -4, W, W, W, W +7, D, D, D, D -4, W, W, W, W +7 = +6 pips

But yes, the pip system is broken and in no way should division be used for match making. That should be left entirely up to MMR.

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(edited by Trevor Boyer.6524)

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Posted by: Yasi.9065

Yasi.9065

I think the thought behind pip range was, that it will bracket mmr on itself, because higher mmr players breeze only through.

And I mean, it could work… if only you couldnt grind into ruby.

Id like to see some statistics, but I bet the current mmr range on ruby and diamond is bigger than in lower divisions.

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Posted by: Daroon.1736

Daroon.1736

Yes, 4 wins to get 5 pips, or if you are losing, some people seem to think, lose 3, then they need to win 3 to get 5 pips. So you can see why some people do this.

Sorry, those people are idiots. It is always, 100%, the same number of games at best. There is zero benefit to losing intentionally and there is no argument to the contrary. Counting to 5 isn’t complicated math.

Those idiots obviously understand that of course there is an argument to the contrary, unfortunately though it requires slightly more complicated math than your simple example of being able to count to 5.

You are not dealing with a situation where you are guaranteed to win any given game – assuming a matchmaking win probability of 50/50 – the likelihood of you achieving a 3 win streak is the same probability of landing a coin flip on the same side of your choosing 3 times in a row.

You can google the math but (roughly) you have a 12% chance of stringing a 3 game streak together against a (roughly) 6% of getting 4 wins in a row.

Put simply, you are twice as likely to be able to put a 3 win streak together as a 4 win streak.

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Posted by: Pure Heart.1456

Pure Heart.1456

You can google the math but (roughly) you have a 12% chance of stringing a 3 game streak together against a (roughly) 6% of getting 4 wins in a row.

Put simply, you are twice as likely to be able to put a 3 win streak together as a 4 win streak.

This!

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Posted by: Yasi.9065

Yasi.9065

Uhm, this does however NOT take into account that you get quite easily winstreaks as long as your enemies are below your skill level.

And as soon as you reach that zone where you “belong”, aka where all others of your skill level are, you arent supposed to get easy winstreaks anymore.

So basically, you should stop getting winstreaks as soon as you get 50/50 matchmaking.
Every winstreak will put you in a <50% winchance zone, which is why you start loosing more until you are back in your “comfort zone”.

At least, thats the theory. Sadly, reality is division locks and tier locks that keep players from dropping down into their comfort zones after they got lucky – mind you, lucky, not got better.

(edited by Yasi.9065)

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Posted by: Deimos Tel Arin.7391

Deimos Tel Arin.7391

Conclusion: The old system where you could gain -3 to +3 pips per match was a lot better.

no. the old system where -2 or -3 may happen is utterly kittened due to how stupid match prediction can be.

with the new system, as least if we have more wins and losses, we can progress slowly.

in the old system, stupid match prediction will screw you over by giving you -2 and -3 pips constantly.

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Posted by: SkyShroud.2865

SkyShroud.2865

S2 is comparably easier to rank up than S1, with enough grind that is.

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Posted by: shrek.1046

shrek.1046

S2 is comparably easier to rank up than S1, with enough grind that is.

No its not.

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Posted by: Ithilwen.1529

Ithilwen.1529

The division locks are one of the few things holding the system together. With this matchmaking, many would be stopped in amber. Then they’d give and leave.

The current system is not “skill based” so arguments based on that are not going to work, a priori.

It’s very clear that players are not landing in the right ranks. The system rewards playing particular classes and social networking to get good teams. It does not reward individual player skill.

In addition, the system has made it so hard to advance that the top players can’t get matches. So, they alt back through the ranks punishing lower ranking players again. This erases the whole notion of speeding high level players through the ranks. In doing so, it invalidates a lot of the thinking behind the Season 2 system.

Removing division locks would intensify the problem.

Nor is there much if any “prestige” in being high ranked at this point.

The vast majority of players aren’t here for Esports. They are here to have a good time. Ultra competition belongs in tournaments. It does not belong in mainstream PvP with a largely casual audience.

The backpack is meant as a carrot to attract casual players to PvP. So, it doesn’t make a lot of sense to expose those newcomers to hardcore competition. They were attracted by a reward they were promised they could win.

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Posted by: Yasi.9065

Yasi.9065

There is no prestige in being high ranked, because league is grindable thanks to locks. It just takes longer than in season1.

And there is enough players in legendary, but the quality of matches is bad and lots of players stop playing as soon as they reach legendary. Why bother if you get matched with and against players that belong in ruby.

Following scenario:
Backpiece precursor is the last reward in a multi-tiered reward track (make it 4-6 one-time reward tracks with getting 25 ap per reward track finished).
Amber stays training wheels division, division lock removed starting sapphire, loose pips and tiers in emerald.
Do you really think casuals would be bothered when they stay in emerald but get good matches there? Do you really think casuals would give a duck on that badge being green, blue or red?
The only thing casuals would miss out on, would be the 1ap title, and the badge.
But at the same time, being legendary would count for something… same as being ruby and diamond.

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Posted by: Shylock.4653

Shylock.4653

The biggest problem with the current pip system is that it rewards winstreaks more than non winstreaks

No the biggest problem is that it is easier to win pips then to lose them. So people can move to leagues where they don’t belong. After being in a league which is above your skill level you can’t lose league and you are captured in bad matches till the end of season.