Guild Wars 2

It’s not solely the broken damage output.

It’s the fact that it pretty much renders any power spec worthless. Why play any other power spec besides revenant?

because some power specs last more than the 3 seconds that the average power rev lasts vs the condi cancer classes out there.

Spartacus.3192:

because some power specs last more than the 3 seconds that the average power rev lasts vs the condi cancer classes out there.

I’d argue that all power specs get destroyed by condi builds, not just revenant. That claim doesn’t hold any worth.

Jelzouki.4128:

Spartacus.3192:

because some power specs last more than the 3 seconds that the average power rev lasts vs the condi cancer classes out there.

I’d argue that all power specs get destroyed by condi builds, not just revenant. That claim doesn’t hold any worth.

you can argue if you like but everyone knows that the biggest weakness of Power Rev is condi and its way worse than any other spec. Power Rev meta build has the least condi clears out of any power spec class.

DH has wings of resolve, Smite Condition (utility as well as on heal effect). Can trait for Remove condition on block also.

Scrapper has remove conditions on elixir and heal use. Elixir gun has cleanse conditions. Can remove conditions by combo of light field.

Thief can clear conditions on evade/dodge. Can clear in stealth.

Sorry but Power Rev is bottom of the list when it comes to condi cleansing.

I would say that the biggest problem of rev is not only that fulfills exactly the same role than other classes but with more succes, which is only balance wise and can be tweaked, but the horrible design that he has. Rev needs an overall rework.

Spartacus.3192:

Jelzouki.4128:

Spartacus.3192:

because some power specs last more than the 3 seconds that the average power rev lasts vs the condi cancer classes out there.

I’d argue that all power specs get destroyed by condi builds, not just revenant. That claim doesn’t hold any worth.

you can argue if you like but everyone knows that the biggest weakness of Power Rev is condi and its way worse than any other spec. Power Rev meta build has the least condi clears out of any power spec class.

DH has wings of resolve, Smite Condition (utility as well as on heal effect). Can trait for Remove condition on block also.

Scrapper has remove conditions on elixir and heal use. Elixir gun has cleanse conditions. Can remove conditions by combo of light field.

Thief can clear conditions on evade/dodge. Can clear in stealth.

Sorry but Power Rev is bottom of the list when it comes to condi cleansing.

Yet it still proves to be more survivable than these classes. That’s hilarious. Give it condi cleanse see what happens.

Krysard.1364:

I would say that the biggest problem of rev is not only that fulfills exactly the same role than other classes but with more succes, but the horrible design that he have. Rev needs an overall rework imo.

It definitely needs rework.

The class has good potential. I have noticed though that compared to say necro and DH which pretty much anyone can pick up and be decent at very very quickly, with rev there are sooooo many terrible ones out there. The difference between the average power rev and a good power rev is huge and it comes down to skill.

When I’m on my Scrapper, DH or condi Rev i would much rather face a power rev than another Scrapper,DH or condi rev because i know there is a high chance they will be average and much easier to kill.

Spartacus.3192:

Krysard.1364:

I would say that the biggest problem of rev is not only that fulfills exactly the same role than other classes but with more succes, but the horrible design that he have. Rev needs an overall rework imo.

It definitely needs rework.

The class has good potential. I have noticed though that compared to say necro and DH which pretty much anyone can pick up and be decent at very very quickly, with rev there are sooooo many terrible ones out there. The difference between the average power rev and a good power rev is huge and it comes down to skill.

When I’m on my Scrapper, DH or condi Rev i would much rather face a power rev than another Scrapper,DH or condi rev because i know there is a high chance they will be average and much easier to kill.

Having high skill floor actually is a well designed facet of revs I would say.

Krysard.1364:

Having high skill floor actually is a well designed facet of revs I would say.

I agree

Rev is just a thief with more blocks, lifesteal, and health. They are by no means op, but are the only burst class (besides dh) that works in the meta right now due to more sustain options.

Spartacus.3192:

Jelzouki.4128:

Spartacus.3192:

because some power specs last more than the 3 seconds that the average power rev lasts vs the condi cancer classes out there.

I’d argue that all power specs get destroyed by condi builds, not just revenant. That claim doesn’t hold any worth.

you can argue if you like but everyone knows that the biggest weakness of Power Rev is condi and its way worse than any other spec. Power Rev meta build has the least condi clears out of any power spec class.

DH has wings of resolve, Smite Condition (utility as well as on heal effect). Can trait for Remove condition on block also.

Scrapper has remove conditions on elixir and heal use. Elixir gun has cleanse conditions. Can remove conditions by combo of light field.

Thief can clear conditions on evade/dodge. Can clear in stealth.

Sorry but Power Rev is bottom of the list when it comes to condi cleansing.

Mesmer power specs have zero cleanse, and never have XD

Ross Biddle.2367:

Mesmer power specs have zero cleanse, and never have XD

Does anyone play power Mesmer ? I was kinda speaking about the current meta builds and to be fair Mesmer is not a class I know very well.

Jelzouki.4128:

Yet it still proves to be more survivable than these classes. That’s hilarious. Give it condi cleanse see what happens.

Not sure if you are being serious or trolling but if you are saying a power rev has more survivability than a scrapper, then I’m done with this thread. LOL.

And power rev was designed with weakness to condi in mind from the very start. It would be highly unlikely that they would give it more condi cleanse.

Jelzouki.4128:

Yet it still proves to be more survivable than these classes. That’s hilarious. Give it condi cleanse see what happens.

More survivable in what context and at what level of play?

I’ve watched power revenants get blown up very quickly by condis even in pro league.

I actually find the lack of condi cleanse very interesting, as a Rev main I wouldn’t want it given any other ways to deal with them and end up kittening up the class. Only Ventari and maybe Jallis need some tweaks now, even reverting Mallyx to auto inflict conditions would also be nice I guess.

And you OP make it sound like Rev was a low skill class, lol I come from playing Guardian and Warrior and Revenant is in fact way more complex and much more entertaining for me, and even then it is barely better than those other two classes but as in a Jack of all Trades, master of none.

Their survivability comes from active defenses and feeding from the opponent’s mistakes., so yeah for sure more complex than having a Healing Signet healing for nearly 400 HP per sec and having a high HP pool.

Spartacus.3192:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Mesmer power specs have zero cleanse, and never have XD

Does anyone play power Mesmer ? I was kinda speaking about the current meta builds and to be fair Mesmer is not a class I know very well.

No, because meta builds need condi cleanse, and also power rev has removed all other power specs from the game XD

Also, many other reasons.

XxsdgxX.8109:

I actually find the lack of condi cleanse very interesting, as a Rev main I wouldn’t want it given any other ways to deal with them and end up kittening up the class. Only Ventari and maybe Jallis need some tweaks now, even reverting Mallyx to auto inflict conditions would also be nice I guess.

And you OP make it sound like Rev was a low skill class, lol I come from playing Guardian and Warrior and Revenant is in fact way more complex and much more entertaining for me, and even then it is barely better than those other two classes but as in a Jack of all Trades, master of none.

Their survivability comes from active defenses and feeding from the opponent’s mistakes., so yeah for sure more complex than having a Healing Signet healing for nearly 400 HP per sec and having a high HP pool.

That baseline 3200 HP difference, so strong man… Healing Signet so strong, totally not obvious counterplay with smart uptime of poison and a good ping-pong between pressure and kitting (dug up from Hambow days). More highly telegraphed skills and cast times for war, please. Not enough as it is, more non-evade animation-lock too.

Random chaining Riposting Shadows/evades and superspeed on demand is so complex too… must be the 600 radius AoE Skull Crack Elite instead, uhmm no, no…. maybe all the armour ignorant life siphoning and unblockable attacks, hmm, not that… the better Defiant Stance heal? nah… must be having to gain crucial distance by sacrificing a non-evade movement skill while making sure you save something for re-engagement and that your re-positioning is impeccable (since you are mostly full mêlée and all)… `cause it`s not like you have a 1200 range, 5 sec CD, LoS ignoring port that can go up vertical elevation (+Riposting Shadows)… oh, wait
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“Rev main”, mkay…

Forgot about the only trait line in the game where all minors and traits that can be chosen are passive, a.ka. Retribution line. Goes somewhere there along the lines of my above post.

Versed in Stone, stability on dodge, Eye for an Eye, so “complex” to use man
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Krysard.1364:

Having high skill floor actually is a well designed facet of revs I would say.

10/10 for comedy by using the phrase ‘high skill’ in GW2, grats.

It’s funny how most of you forget about the fact that the rev has to micromanage energy and just throw skill names in the list as if it is generic warrior firing off abilities

Just goes without saying what skillfloor you guys are at.

XxsdgxX.8109:

And you OP make it sound like Rev was a low skill class, lol I come from playing Guardian and Warrior and Revenant is in fact way more complex and much more entertaining for me, and even then it is barely better than those other two classes but as in a Jack of all Trades, master of none.

Their survivability comes from active defenses and feeding from the opponent’s mistakes., so yeah for sure more complex than having a Healing Signet healing for nearly 400 HP per sec and having a high HP pool.

Wow another comedian, “active defenses”, you mean like versed in stone, or 10% reduced damage whilst below 75% HP, or how about eye for an eye, I guess not, then surely you mean the trait that reduces damage from over 360 distance by 10%, I guess you don’t mean that either, maybe you mean those passive life syphons, or maybe not…

It’s funny you mention warrior, because whilst it also has some passive defences, in terms of offense it takes actual thought to land stuff (at least for melee weapons), you want to hit HB, eviscerate (ignoring current bug), etc you actually have to set it up, because you won’t hit anyone who isn’t a potato otherwise, rev on the hand you just roll your face across the keyboard because you have skills that play the game for you to apply your damage, like a 1200 range blink that also makes attacks unblockable on a 5 sec cooldown, or a 450 range multi blink that just sticks to your target for you on sword 3.

P.S – There is no such thing as a high skill class in GW2, they are all low skill.

Ravenmoon.5318:

It’s funny how most of you forget about the fact that the rev has to micromanage energy and just throw skill names in the list as if it is generic warrior firing off abilities

Just goes without saying what skillfloor you guys are at.

It`s funny how most of you forget about the fact the war has to “micromanage” his position relative to terrain and his limited access to defences/mitigations, don`t read what the full context of the skills being listed was, and don`t comprehend the concept of stalling in this game

Did I do it right ? I would`ve included a thing about how the general mentality is that most warriors are generic and “just fire skills off”, but was getting too long compared to the original.

Warrior stalling/maintaining distance

1. has to sacrifice key mobility skills on medium CD (but made high by comparison due the amount of mobility/range other classes have now);
2. must have the right terrain to allow this;
3. to reposition;
4. to let some CDs recharge;
5. to leave healing signet to do its work, coupled with Adrenal Health if carrying Defence line;
6. in some instances to wait for some adrenaline: Signet of Rage passive, berserker Stance to fill bars;
7. not baiting or draining anything on the opponents while doing this, except if you gain a good position for using a ranged wep like rifle.

Revenant stalling/maintaining distance

1. to leave energy bar to fill allowing access to more usage of already low CD powerful skills, with the added potential of some powerful CC chains – most rewarded class for stalling;
2. to let some CDs recharge;
3. all the CDs and energy costs on the Shrio/Glint sword/staff meta flow quite nicely into a good tango of offence, defence and positioning;
4. usually one dodge and a Riposting Shadows is enough distance gained while also curing movement-impairing conditions and gaining stab if carrying Retribution line;
5. minimal sacrifice is made by doing the above and mechanics like: Infuse Light,Versed in Stone, full endurance bar again, powerful offence against singled-out targets, don`t really put you in any danger of being insta-nuked;
6. you have: Infuse Light, Staff block, Staff evade, Shield block, still potent damage, to allow in your skill rotations while outside Shiro; and since Glint is quite forgiving on the energy usage…
7. your use of LoS is more powerful then that of opponent and some positioning mistakes can be easily rectified, both because of access to 1200 port that ignores LoS;
8. alternatively, in some cases 1 sec of Impossible Odds (fresh air anyone?) is enough for obtaining a significantly better position;
9. all of your mitigations and evade chaining are very effective at baiting skills of opponents, even more so coupled with powerful nr.1 and nr.2 wep skills on low CDs and low energy costs.

Revenant has to “micromanage energy” just as all the other classes have to not waste dodges, CDs and their active mitigations/defences.

kappa
Precision strike: 5 energy cost (replenish rate is 5 per sec with no upkeep), 4 sec CD, 600 range, no animation-lock, 3-bar eviscerate baseline damage (2371 evi vs 2184 on Marauder with strength runes, no dmg modifiers). Energy micromanagement, yo!
/kappa

Spartacus.3192:

because some power specs last more than the 3 seconds that the average power rev lasts vs the condi cancer classes out there.

Where are you getting this from? Power rev kills condi necro 1v1 if the necro starts with less than 20% shroud. Between the dodges/blocks/cc/glint heal, there’s more than enough time to burst the necro down before the condis become an issue.

Om Im.7863:

Forgot about the only trait line in the game where all minors and traits that can be chosen are passive, a.ka. Retribution line. Goes somewhere there along the lines of my above post.

Versed in Stone, stability on dodge, Eye for an Eye, so “complex” to use man
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Most power revs have moved from the retribution line and are now taking the Invocation line for the damage. But yes retribution is very good for survivability.

Jelzouki.4128:

I’d argue that all power specs get destroyed by condi builds, not just revenant. That claim doesn’t hold any worth.

So then why play power anything?

Spartacus.3192:

Krysard.1364:

I would say that the biggest problem of rev is not only that fulfills exactly the same role than other classes but with more succes, but the horrible design that he have. Rev needs an overall rework imo.

It definitely needs rework.

The class has good potential. I have noticed though that compared to say necro and DH which pretty much anyone can pick up and be decent at very very quickly, with rev there are sooooo many terrible ones out there. The difference between the average power rev and a good power rev is huge and it comes down to skill.

When I’m on my Scrapper, DH or condi Rev i would much rather face a power rev than another Scrapper,DH or condi rev because i know there is a high chance they will be average and much easier to kill.

No I’m not saying that rev is more survivable than scrapper but it is more survivable then any of the other classes you mentioned, when running a power spec.

And yes it is easy to pick up reaper and deal damage with it, but like your observation about revenanrs, there are a lot of bad reapers out there because they have bad positioning. Reaper being one of the easiest classes to lock down and always has been, will never come close to being easier to play than a revenant.

The mindless hate towards Revenant is so obvious. I really don’t want to waste anymore time explaining except for just some simple things.

You either go Invocation for damage or Retribution for the defense passives, and on Herald line either Soothing Bastion for the shield 5 proc on low HP or Enhanced Bulwark for the extra Stability or Elder’s Force for extra damage while having boons.

Every single time someone complains about them they talk as if every Revenant was using all the build threes and traits simultaneously and like 3/4 Legends also at the same time, and 0 cd with 0 energy cost skills.

And then I also just found out some people think JALLIS is OP, great joke there.
So yep as always the PvP forums here are mostly a bad joke, sorry for the very few people who actually give real constructive criticism, although that only happens once for each 100 posts of crying. No wonder ANET goes read and replies in reddit instead of here.

dragon hunter is a great power build that is good vs condis, its weak in the meta because of rev and tempests being so prominent

XxsdgxX.8109:

The mindless hate towards Revenant is so obvious. I really don’t want to waste anymore time explaining except for just some simple things.

You either go Invocation for damage or Retribution for the defense passives, and on Herald line either Soothing Bastion for the shield 5 proc on low HP or Enhanced Bulwark for the extra Stability or Elder’s Force for extra damage while having boons

Makes mindless comparison between rev and war using incorrect statements, gets extensive argumentation on why his view is distorted, calls argumentation mindless hate, proceeds to “explain” something that has nothing to do with the things stated.

XxsdgxX.8109:

Every single time someone complains about them they talk as if every Revenant was using all the build threes and traits simultaneously and like 3/4 Legends also at the same time, and 0 cd with 0 energy cost skills.
And then I also just found out some people think JALLIS is OP, great joke there.

Absolutely no post made it seem that more than three traitlines or 2 legends were being used at the same time, that`s your imagination. Most (including myself) commented on the meta spec that STILL uses Retribution, some commented on Invocation separate from other lines, Corruption line or condi specs weren`t even hinted on, Salvation is a dead line that no one ever discusses.

You need to learn your class mister/miss “rev main”. Versed in Stone ~= Jalis. Stability gain ~= Jalis. Or maybe you just like to take things out of context.

All rev weapon skills are intentionally designed to be very powerful and potent, especially on the low energy costs + low CDs nr.1 and nr.2; this is done under the pretext of being locked into: a smaller pool of utilities (legend mechanic) and energy management. The only other weps that come close to this type of power-creep potency are scrapper hammer, followed somewhere very far along the line by druid staff.

CDs on rev are overall low, regardless of the energy management argument. Anyone that thinks otherwise, would`ve loved to see you play fresh air ele or shatter mesmer back in the day.

Shiro and Glint are significantly more forgiving on managing energy than the other Legends, and significantly more powerful utility skills. No one was arguing that Jalis, Ventari or Malyx is a spam of op utility skills. And again, no comprehension of stalling in one`s game play. Revenant is the most rewarded class for stalling, which coupled with the low CDs, can make already powerful skills be quite easy to repeat.

No argument against passives or about how passives carry bad players. Pretty legit. Shouldn`t be surprising really when in your first post on this thread you advocate for Malyx to “auto inflict conditions”. Guess actually timing such an important mechanic and having some sacrifices for the outcome , like a cast time and a telegraph, is too difficult.

Since the “take Invocation for damage” statement was used by two posters, a few comments on the Invocation line.

Most of the damage comes from Equilibrium. Apart from that you get a measly 7% damage modifier while under fury; Devastation line modifiers (including vuln and might) equate to significantly more than this. Without Invocation, a Herald spec with Glint already has good access to fury. On Marauder Amulet, with normal fury you have a 74% chance to crit, and with Roiling Mists you have 94%. That +20% over 50% is not worth it, even on hammer; it`s not like you are a war relying on your big telegraph evi to crit or you die/get out sustained/get kitted.

Thus, on Marauder, Equilibrium is really your big source of damage in Invocation. Sacrificing that damage and the wasting of 50% energy it implies (for dmg) is quite an obvious choice in favour of the defences of the Retribution line. Berserker amulet is another story… since you lose the vitality and are already weak to condi, its best to go full yolo on high damage. And because precision is 46%, Roiling Mists actually becomes important towards the damage output.

Retribution vs Invocation, you loose the stab on dodge for a stun break on legend swap. With the amount of CC that HOT introduced, gee, I wonder which one is more potent… hmm… big dilemma! And even if CC was kept to pre-HOT levels, it surely can`t be the passive option, right ?

Problem with Equilibrium: it is instant with no telegraph and high AoE damage. Mechanics of other classes that are/were non-telegraphed or close to it (e.g. close range shatters, steal, backstab, tactical strike, instant procs on going into shroud, Judge`s Intervention burst) are/were part of the overall class design in such a way that allowed them to be somewhat expected at certain times during the battle. For example, if you see a thief in the distance coming at you from the sides or back, its a pretty high chance that he will open with steal. Another example, mesmers of old had to actually do set-up work for a good shatter and were forced to cast shatters in order to keep pressure.

Swapping legends does not have even a remotely predictable timing during a battle, unless you are already locked in Surge of the Mists after your CDs have been drained. You either eat Equilibrium or waste 2 dodges/a stunbreaker if you think he will use it after one of the other CCs.

edit: Mistaken the name of revenant staff nr.5 for Charged Mists, which is a GM in Invocation. Now corrected.

500 damage, much high, so unstop, wow, wow

Ravenmoon.5318:

500 damage, much high, so unstop, wow, wow

500 damage on Equilibrium is baseline in PvP with no amulet, no runes and no traits selected.

Let us consider only Marauder amulet with strength runes and no other damage modifiers in the equation (no traits, sigils etc).
Equilibrium tooltip damage is a bit above 1000. That is comparable (under the same constraints) to one meteor from Meteor Shower, third auto-attack in thief sword chain, a level 2 Mind Wrack, warrior Skull Crack, third auto-attack in guardian greatsword chain, third auto-attack in warrior hammer chain, Fierce Blow – to name a few. What do these things have in common ? They are mostly meele, with a cast time and require predictable set-up to land leading to obvious counters.
On top of the amulet and runes, revenant also has damage modifiers and great potency to crit (as does thief, but their access to precision enhancing mechanics and damage modifiers are more situational). Have you ever stopped to notice what damage on crit one meteor did to you back when damage/zerker builds on ele were viable?

Gotta love how one`s affinity towards a class comes first over logic and argumentation, to the extent of even spreading false information.

Wait.. Equilibrium is a problem now? A trait that actually need a buff bc it req for energy to deal damage sux balls? You guys are amazing. That damage is nothing special on it.

Ele has similiar trait which they can proc many times due to air attunement resetting on crit and that one is fine? Autopitol steal with no casttime, shatter (at mes loc) with no casttime is fine, but this one specific trait is op? Your bias is real guys.

Burtnik.5218:

Wait.. Equilibrium is a problem now? A trait that actually need a buff bc it req for energy to deal damage sux balls? You guys are amazing. That damage is nothing special on it.

Ele has similiar trait which they can proc many times due to air attunement resetting on crit and that one is fine? Autopitol steal with no casttime, shatter (at mes loc) with no casttime is fine, but this one specific trait is op? Your bias is real guys.

The fact that they weren`t mentioned doesn`t mean they are not acknowledged. When I described its [Equilibirum`s] problems, I opted for simple examples of “designing it well”, where skilful play and thought was promoted. It was already a long post. The situations you brought up call for a more ample discussion.

As a mini sidenote: I wouldn`t call the dmg from one meteor crit or third auto-chain on theif sword “nothing special”.

Some counter-arguments to your statements:

• Proper use of Glint always puts you above 50% energy easily. You are mostly going to use the actives for pressure or an offensive defence. Coupling the upkeeps with Hardening Scales instead is subpar for defence by comparison;
• In rotational play, because of the port and mobility in Shiro, you can position yourself smartly to keep the status of “in combat” on and stall for a bit to get energy. An interesting idea, as food for thought, would be to overall tweak rev to have energy decay back to 50% while remaining in a legend when going OOC, instead of instant drop to 50%;
• on Marauder amulet with Strength runes and no damage modifiers considered, Electric Discharge has 550 tooltip damage, compared to Equilibirum 1000. You can add that to Lighting Strike which is 950 (totalling 1500), but the sceptre skills has 10 secs CD (6 secs when traited). I think you meant the combination of the two;
• ele has minimal access to precision enhancing mechanics compared to revenant;
• ele and mesmer don`t have the non-situational damage modifiers and high damage skills that revenant has. A shatter build, a fresh air build and power revenant meta, are all focused on single target damage though.
• The flow of revenant defences allows for minimal gaps that a shatter build or fresh air can profit from and minimal baiting of his skills. During this flow, the revenant has ample opportunity for defensive offence (e.g Surge of the Mists, UA) on low CD, that can hit hard through the many more windows that ele and mesmer have in their defensive flows;
• Steal in most scenarios is predictable, especially as an opener. Also, its CD can be monitored. I had a comment on this in a previous post. Even in rotations (lets assume with no communication), if a thief comes to fast gank you from stealth or behind some terrain prop where you can`t see, you should expect a thief to +1 you and be very mobile on the map. And you should react accordingly if the 1v1 or whatever scenario is not in your favour or lingering on. Disengage and get on some terrain prop where you can control the thief`s ports. Headshot plus Impacting Disruption is the actual minimal non-telegraph with minimal predictability problem when it comes to thief; but projectile hate is grossly prevalent these days;
• Revenant port isn`t forced to be cast in the 1200 range as Steal. And the Unblockable effect doesn`t require for the port to hit a target. It has telegraph though. Both ignore LoS, except for the places were terrain is coded badly of course;
• see below post for a story about the non-telegraph skills you mentioned and their predictability.

edit: Mistaken the name of revenant staff nr.5 for Charged Mists, which is a GM in Invocation. Now corrected.

Equilibrium 2 stronk, forget the opportunity cost of 50 energy.

Blast from the past (pre 23 June 2015)

1. Fresh Air trait used to have an internal CD that was 5 seconds, if I remember right. People that played properly and took the time to get mechanically good would count the 5 seconds in their skill rotations, and prepare accordingly against the instant Lighting Strike plus Blinding Flash combo. The ele build had to continuously be casting because of Signet of Restoration sustain, and was forced to go back to air on Fresh Air CD most of the time in order to keep the pressure up. In other words, even if it was non-telegraph, instant with potent sustained damage in range, it could be expected and had counterplay.
2. Illusionary Persona was a Grandmaster trait in the Illusions line that gave the shatter effect on the mesmer as well. Even with Deceptive Evasion trait (already 30+15 points occupied), to maximise its efficiency in combat (actually do good damage), the mesmer had to properly set-up clones, bait key skills, then land a Mirror Blade plus shatter at the exact right time. All that set-up work made the effect predictable in most cases. Even for condi builds, it was necessary to hit the shatter at specific moments since the conditions were low duration Torment and Confusion.In regards to defence, it was obvious when you forced the mesmer enough such that he had to use a shatter.

3 specialisation trait system (23 June 2015 – HOT release)

1. Power creep, both general as well as specific to some of the classes` individualities, was introduced;
2. Fresh Air CD was removed, thus reducing counter play. However, the build evolved into being dependent on Stone Heart for sustain. Through this, the timing of going back into air from mitigating some damage in earth was made somewhat obvious. And even if attunements swapping was spammed for fast and many Electric Discharge plus Lighting Strike combos, it would sacrifice key effects from other attunements (a rupt and some heal in water, damage in fire, the sustain from earth). To this day, Lighting Strike still has a cooldown, which can be monitored.
3. Illusionary Persona was made a class mechanic. Mesmer received many traits as baseline to the class on that patch. Was quite the display in terms of power creep. But needed as claimed by the majority of mesmer mains. Deceptive Evasion was made into a Grandmaster trait, thus limiting some access to illusion generation. The fact that efficiency in combat required a set-up for a shatter remained the same. PU buff made sustain a problem for a while. If we are talking about powerful non-telegraph and unpredictable in this era, Confounding Suggestions plus Mantra of Distraction, is the main culprit – the 5 second CD nerf didn`t really solve the unpredictability issues in any way.

Fast-forward to present day HOT

1. Even more power creep everywhere, where good design aspects achieved after many years of works were shoved under the rug;
2. The devs attempted to buff Fresh Air as a build in many iterations since HOT-release in order to match-up to the amount of power-creep of other things that were introduced. Reality is that the build is subpar with meta elite specs.
3. Illusionary Reversion, Chronophantasma, Time Catches Up removed the need for deep thought and difficulty of setting up your shatters. Especially on the condi sustain meta build we have currently. On that build, low couldown sword skills, and staff illusion creation skills, coupled with Alacrity, plus Persistence of Memory, plus reduced recharge on shatters, throws any predictability out the window. You are left with proper use of cleansing and positioning, and maybe a gut feeling on how the mesmer will proceed.

Tl;dr At some point in the PvP game`s past, non-telegraph instant skills actually had predictability and thoughtful counter play.

Revenant legend swap mechanic doesn`t offer any of this when coupled with Equilibrium because the class is designed and highly rewarded for stalling. In addition, the power version of the class already has too many defence wasters.

Spartacus.3192:

because some power specs last more than the 3 seconds that the average power rev lasts vs the condi cancer classes out there.

what….rev has the second most reliable way to remove chills(first of thief but thief is not viable), the strongest condition in the current meta….the only thing it has to be careful is mesmer shatter..but rev also has plenty of evades and blocks to avoid the shatters…also rev has a medium HP..

Equilibrium is generally used for added damage to a staff 5. The goal is to be close to the opponent, switch to staff and switch to shiro, essentially procing sigil of hydromancy and equilibrium on top of a staff 5

Spartacus.3192:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Mesmer power specs have zero cleanse, and never have XD

Does anyone play power Mesmer ? I was kinda speaking about the current meta builds and to be fair Mesmer is not a class I know very well.

Yet you name DH and thief, both not in the meta. Furthermore, maybe power mes isn’t in the meta because it has no condi cleanse and survivability.

Nah m8, riposting shadows alone is plenty condi remove compared to shatter mes.

lighter.2708:

Spartacus.3192:

because some power specs last more than the 3 seconds that the average power rev lasts vs the condi cancer classes out there.

what….rev has the second most reliable way to remove chills(first of thief but thief is not viable), the strongest condition in the current meta….the only thing it has to be careful is mesmer shatter..but rev also has plenty of evades and blocks to avoid the shatters…also rev has a medium HP..

You did bring your jokes bag with you this morning

Spartacus.3192:

because some power specs last more than the 3 seconds that the average power rev lasts vs the condi cancer classes out there.

This is only a problem of random groups, because:

- More condi-classes are played even though it makes no sense
- People don’t focus properly, if they would, power would have a huge advantage in design alone over conditions
- People often don’t run the proper builds/lack support
- People run certain Reaper builds for example that would get destroyed within seconds against good teams because they run offensive utilities and don’t get punished for it.

FrownyClown.8402:

Equilibrium is generally used for added damage to a staff 5. The goal is to be close to the opponent, switch to staff and switch to shiro, essentially procing sigil of hydromancy and equilibrium on top of a staff 5

It is used during Surge of the Mists or UA for guaranteed hits and extremely potent wasting of defences. The reality of many match-ups will have you proc it outside these two scenarios.

The combo that you described is also probably one of the biggest cancers in this game. It is certainly up there. As if Surge of the Mists wasn`t ridiculous power creep with minimal counter play as it is, on its own…

Tested on a zerker power build with Devastation + Invocation + Herald, runes of strength, all damage modifiers traited. Was casual skill rotations, focused on keeping might stacks close to 25 and some boons for Elder`s Strength rather than having Rapid Lacerations at max. Done on Svanir below 50% (for Swift Termination). Hydromancy proc: 2k crit, Equilibrium proc: 5k crit, Surge of the Mists proc: 13k (with 9 crits). Total: a 20k lock.

Yes, it requires some set-up, the degree of the reward though… that dmg in the combo is AoE btw. Still minimal counter play if used right and most of the set-up is part of your usual rotation of skills.

edit: Mistaken the name of revenant staff nr.5 for Charged Mists, which is a GM in Invocation. Now corrected. Also, miscounted number of hits of Surge of the Mists (9 vs 12) in combat log, now corrected, damage values were always correct.

Om Im.7863:

FrownyClown.8402:

Equilibrium is generally used for added damage to a staff 5. The goal is to be close to the opponent, switch to staff and switch to shiro, essentially procing sigil of hydromancy and equilibrium on top of a staff 5

It is used during Charged Mists or UA for guaranteed hits and extremely potent wasting of defences. The reality of many match-ups will have you proc it outside these two scenarios.

The combo that you described is also probably one of the biggest cancers in this game. It is certainly up there. As if Charged Mists wasn`t ridiculous power creep with minimal counter play as it is, on its own…

Tested on a zerker power build with Devastation + Invocation + Herald, runes of strength, all damage modifiers traited. Was casual skill rotations, focused on keeping might stacks close to 25 and some boons for Elder`s Strength rather than having Rapid Lacerations at max. Done on Svanir below 50% (for Swift Termination). Hydromancy proc: 2k crit, Equilibrium proc: 5k crit, Charged Mists proc: 13k (with 11/12 crits). Total: a 20k lock.

Yes, it requires some set-up, the degree of the reward though… that dmg in the combo is AoE btw. Still minimal counter play if used right and most of the set-up is part of your usual rotation of skills.

Charged mists is the Invocation GM that is never used (might on threshold) what exactly are you referring to?

Varezenem.2813:

Charged mists is the Invocation GM that is never used (might on threshold) what exactly are you referring to?

Exactly. Who even uses Charged Mists GM trait? It gives 2 stacks of might when you use a skill that drops your Energy below 50, when compared to Roiling Mists which is a free extra 20% crit chance when you have Fury.

Varezenem.2813:

Om Im.7863:

FrownyClown.8402:

Equilibrium is generally used for added damage to a staff 5. The goal is to be close to the opponent, switch to staff and switch to shiro, essentially procing sigil of hydromancy and equilibrium on top of a staff 5

It is used during Charged Mists or UA for guaranteed hits and extremely potent wasting of defences. The reality of many match-ups will have you proc it outside these two scenarios.

The combo that you described is also probably one of the biggest cancers in this game. It is certainly up there. As if Charged Mists wasn`t ridiculous power creep with minimal counter play as it is, on its own…

Tested on a zerker power build with Devastation + Invocation + Herald, runes of strength, all damage modifiers traited. Was casual skill rotations, focused on keeping might stacks close to 25 and some boons for Elder`s Strength rather than having Rapid Lacerations at max. Done on Svanir below 50% (for Swift Termination). Hydromancy proc: 2k crit, Equilibrium proc: 5k crit, Charged Mists proc: 13k (with 11/12 crits). Total: a 20k lock.

Yes, it requires some set-up, the degree of the reward though… that dmg in the combo is AoE btw. Still minimal counter play if used right and most of the set-up is part of your usual rotation of skills.

Charged mists is the Invocation GM that is never used (might on threshold) what exactly are you referring to?

Thank you for pointing that out, my mistake. Was stuck in my head that the name of staff 5 is Charged Mists, opposed to Surge of the mists. Corrected now in all posts.

Spartacus.3192:

Varezenem.2813:

Charged mists is the Invocation GM that is never used (might on threshold) what exactly are you referring to?

Exactly. Who even uses Charged Mists GM trait? It gives 2 stacks of might when you use a skill that drops your Energy below 50, when compared to Roiling Mists which is a free extra 20% crit chance when you have Fury.

From the context and the way in which it was described, it would have been quite obvious that staff 5 was being discussed if one had stopped to think about it.

Om Im.7863:

Spartacus.3192:

Varezenem.2813:

Charged mists is the Invocation GM that is never used (might on threshold) what exactly are you referring to?

Exactly. Who even uses Charged Mists GM trait? It gives 2 stacks of might when you use a skill that drops your Energy below 50, when compared to Roiling Mists which is a free extra 20% crit chance when you have Fury.

From the context and the way in which it was described, it would have been quite obvious that staff 5 was being discussed if one had stopped to think about it.

Staff 5 has 9 hits not 11~12… Also it’s far from a AoE it’s a 3 target line cast skill the chances of hitting more than one target with the full damage are negligible. Also proc refers to passive stuff Surge of the mists is a active skill.

Ravenmoon.5318:

lighter.2708:

Spartacus.3192:

because some power specs last more than the 3 seconds that the average power rev lasts vs the condi cancer classes out there.

what….rev has the second most reliable way to remove chills(first of thief but thief is not viable), the strongest condition in the current meta….the only thing it has to be careful is mesmer shatter..but rev also has plenty of evades and blocks to avoid the shatters…also rev has a medium HP..

You did bring your jokes bag with you this morning

seriously l2p issue on your part, i bet you are the kind of person who spams skills and use sword 3 when you see 10 stacks of confusion on you

lighter.2708:

Ravenmoon.5318:

lighter.2708:

Spartacus.3192:

because some power specs last more than the 3 seconds that the average power rev lasts vs the condi cancer classes out there.

what….rev has the second most reliable way to remove chills(first of thief but thief is not viable), the strongest condition in the current meta….the only thing it has to be careful is mesmer shatter..but rev also has plenty of evades and blocks to avoid the shatters…also rev has a medium HP..

You did bring your jokes bag with you this morning

seriously l2p issue on your part, i bet you are the kind of person who spams skills and use sword 3 when you see 10 stacks of confusion on you

Im doing that all the time. From low to full hp in no time. That said theres no reason for UA to proc confu 6 times just like there is no reason to break channel on stealth targets.

Burtnik.5218:

lighter.2708:

Ravenmoon.5318:

lighter.2708:

Spartacus.3192:

because some power specs last more than the 3 seconds that the average power rev lasts vs the condi cancer classes out there.

what….rev has the second most reliable way to remove chills(first of thief but thief is not viable), the strongest condition in the current meta….the only thing it has to be careful is mesmer shatter..but rev also has plenty of evades and blocks to avoid the shatters…also rev has a medium HP..

You did bring your jokes bag with you this morning

seriously l2p issue on your part, i bet you are the kind of person who spams skills and use sword 3 when you see 10 stacks of confusion on you

Im doing that all the time. From low to full hp in no time. That said theres no reason for UA to proc confu 6 times just like there is no reason to break channel on stealth targets.

Indeed that’s one of the more eepffective ways I found in fighting mesmers.