Guild Wars 2

Hi frands, Teef Teef Teef Teef here, retired best multiclass NA!

I have come to share my closing thoughts on the biggest glaring issue with PvP! The biggest problem with this game is.. you guessed it, TEEF.

/VeeWeeMode

Thief is the most overpowered class in the game. It has the highest map mobility, the highest map control in general, the highest burst setup combined with the 3rd best burst, virtual invincibility with instant 1200 range teleports combined with long stealth durations and high evasiveness via weapon skills, without even traiting for acro.

Now, obviously most top players don’t see Thief as overpowered in 1v1. While in an actual duel a thief will never lose, in a conquest setting it is often not ideal for a thief to engage in 1v1s. Why is this? It’s because with the amount of map control the class has, it’s better to literally run around the map insta killing people in +1s and decapping points than it is to actually contest anything, because thief can force a camp as well, because otherwise the second an enemy leaves a point it’ll get decapped. No other class can influence the map even close to this extent.

Not only that, but then there’s the element of stealth. You might think you have the map under control, but the second you leave a point, there will literally be a thief that pops out of stealth and decaps it before you can react. This is an awful mechanic because there is no counterplay to stealth AT ALL in this game.

Finally, my personal biggest problem. Thief hardcounters necro, mes, and ranger in a conquest environment as well as a 1v1 environment. Having been a necro main when I quit the game, this was one of the worst parts for me. The chances of a good thief losing to a necro in any situation is minimal… same for mes and ranger. This would be ok if you could get away but noooooooo thief will ALWAYS catch you. There is no escape from the most OP class.

Suggested nerfs to Thief:

Reduce all shadowstep ranges by 1/3. i.e. SS max range 800.

Reduce all stealth durations on ALL classes by 1/3. i.e. BP would give 2s stealth instead of 3s.

Change the maximum stealth duration to 5s, down from 13s or whatever it is now.

Reduce thief blind durations to 1s, right now kittenty thieves just spam DP 3 and win instead of actually using it to predict something and dodge it.

Give pistol 4 a 1s cast time and raise initiative cost to 6. In return give it a 2s daze.

Remove panic strike from the game, replace it with some useless trait so people go back to CS Thief.

Gut vampirism runes.

These changes would keep Thief strong as a burst class and wouldn’t effect its 1v1 too much, but it would give the class more counterplay.

I’ll make more threads on what I think the PvP in this game needs. ArenaNet will obviously do none of it, but I don’t really have much to do over the summer XD

I don’t think my necro has ever lost to a thief.

Uhh so you quit the game and are posting an essay on why something is “broken”? Your input on the matter is valuable to the community. Thank you.

P.S. Thieves are fine.

He’s kind of right though.

…..yes please uh, one rocket to Mars. I’d like to watch the earth explode from a safe distance.

serenke.4806:

He’s kind of right though.

Only the prowess abilities that thief brings to conquest:
+1 abilities
node backcapping.

That’s it.
Do these area’s needs to be nerf? I really don’t think so. Why have a Thief on your team if they can’t do these two roles effectively? Nerf them any more and you might as well replace it with a self-sustaining class..

Thief is complete easymode in its current form. And yes, its the perfect roamer. Moving around in stealth, picking off low health targets.

I personally like the fact that you have to be aware of where the thief is. But the fact that the thief is so forgiveable, makes it far too effective for the risk taken.
Thief hard counters mesmer so hard, that with near perfect play (when the thief is not a total kitten) he will destroy you. Which is mostly never the case, as a smart thief will just wait till you are fighting something else, and one shot you out of stealth.

Only knowing that a thief is near, even when he’s not, can make you pop valuable cd’s.
All hail my old main.

Elitist.8701:

Hi frands, Teef Teef Teef Teef here, retired best multiclass NA!

I have come to share my closing thoughts on the biggest glaring issue with PvP! The biggest problem with this game is.. you guessed it, TEEF.

/VeeWeeMode

Thief is the most overpowered class in the game. It has the highest map mobility, the highest map control in general, the highest burst setup combined with the 3rd best burst, virtual invincibility with instant 1200 range teleports combined with long stealth durations and high evasiveness via weapon skills, without even traiting for acro.

Now, obviously most top players don’t see Thief as overpowered in 1v1. While in an actual duel a thief will never lose, in a conquest setting it is often not ideal for a thief to engage in 1v1s. Why is this? It’s because with the amount of map control the class has, it’s better to literally run around the map insta killing people in +1s and decapping points than it is to actually contest anything, because thief can force a camp as well, because otherwise the second an enemy leaves a point it’ll get decapped. No other class can influence the map even close to this extent.

Not only that, but then there’s the element of stealth. You might think you have the map under control, but the second you leave a point, there will literally be a thief that pops out of stealth and decaps it before you can react. This is an awful mechanic because there is no counterplay to stealth AT ALL in this game.

Finally, my personal biggest problem. Thief hardcounters necro, mes, and ranger in a conquest environment as well as a 1v1 environment. Having been a necro main when I quit the game, this was one of the worst parts for me. The chances of a good thief losing to a necro in any situation is minimal… same for mes and ranger. This would be ok if you could get away but noooooooo thief will ALWAYS catch you. There is no escape from the most OP class.

Suggested nerfs to Thief:

Reduce all shadowstep ranges by 1/3. i.e. SS max range 800.

Reduce all stealth durations on ALL classes by 1/3. i.e. BP would give 2s stealth instead of 3s.

Change the maximum stealth duration to 5s, down from 13s or whatever it is now.

Reduce thief blind durations to 1s, right now kittenty thieves just spam DP 3 and win instead of actually using it to predict something and dodge it.

Give pistol 4 a 1s cast time and raise initiative cost to 6. In return give it a 2s daze.

Remove panic strike from the game, replace it with some useless trait so people go back to CS Thief.

Gut vampirism runes.

These changes would keep Thief strong as a burst class and wouldn’t effect its 1v1 too much, but it would give the class more counterplay.

I’ll make more threads on what I think the PvP in this game needs. ArenaNet will obviously do none of it, but I don’t really have much to do over the summer XD

Next thread will be on healing and why it’s broken in this game.

i wonder why someone whose only notable achievement is repeatedly forcing their shallow gimmick of a persona on the forums for attention is pretending to know what they’re talking about concerning game balance?

literally all of your points are arguments straight out of 2012 that’ve been repeatedly dispelled through the years and yet here you are; requesting one of the few professions that have been balanced be nerfed.

are you just bitter crate can’t guarantee a win in 1v1s anymore? or one of the most disproportionally rewarding builds in the games’ history has been (to the pleasure of nearly everyone) gutted?

the only profession thief has been known to actively hard counter (mesmer) can actually contend with it now thanks to how strong GS + s/t mesmer with mantra of distraction + halting strike is. basing your reasoning for nerfing ANYTHING on the fact that it can beat ranger is even more inane, as it’s by FAR the worst profession in the game; it’s like demanding everyone in a class get an F on a test because a kid who didn’t study got an F on his.

From my personal point of view: I main a thief, I play pvp (and pve). I have never ever had any trouble against thieves on my thief or other professions (including a power necro). Yes, on occasion a good thief kills me on w/e profession I am playing at the time. Good for them, they outplayed me, just like any other good player with another class could have.

But most of the time thieves don’t even offer much of a challenge, not alone at least. OP why do you think that is? I’m not a super good player, average at best. I think it’s because I know what they can do so I can predict their moves to some degree. And ironically, my thief seems to be the most vulnerable against a thief.

Thief is meant to excell at 1v1, but cannot contribute much in a bigger fight, something the other professions can do. Mobility is the sole reason thieves are even in the meta still, they can turn 1v1 into 2v1 faster than any other profession (aside from a mesmer with portal). Take that away and you will see thieves in pvp no more. Stealth is not invulnerability and neither is mobility, you can still cc them and hit them through stealth.

IDK if i agree with all of your points, but i have to say as someone who plays thief mainly the class is really easy mode in most situations. Im not saying being a good thief is easy, just that you can help out your team a lot without much risk.

Panic strike should go away for sure, idk about your other points atm.

Maris.3164:

From my personal point of view: I main a thief, I play pvp (and pve). I have never ever had any trouble against thieves on my thief or other professions (including a power necro). Yes, on occasion a good thief kills me on w/e profession I am playing at the time. Good for them, they outplayed me, just like any other good player with another class could have.

But most of the time thieves don’t even offer much of a challenge, not alone at least. OP why do you think that is? I’m not a super good player, average at best. I think it’s because I know what they can do so I can predict their moves to some degree. And ironically, my thief seems to be the most vulnerable against a thief.

Thief is meant to excell at 1v1, but cannot contribute much in a bigger fight, something the other professions can do. Mobility is the sole reason thieves are even in the meta still, they can turn 1v1 into 2v1 faster than any other profession (aside from a mesmer with portal). Take that away and you will see thieves in pvp no more. Stealth is not invulnerability and neither is mobility, you can still cc them and hit them through stealth.

Thieves contribution to big fights is tremendously important. They can pop in and out and kill other low target or enemy dps quickly without anyone seeing it come. Its ridiculous to say they aren’t extremely strong in teams.

And most thieves suck out there, but that doesnt mean the class isnt broken. Although i don’t think its as broken as TEEF TEEF TEEF TEEF says it is but it definitely isn’t the high skill cap, huge risk, huge reward class it used to/ should be

I’d say he’s right! Thieves are OP! Lowest HP pool in the game and shabby condi removal, quite a hard choice between survivability and burst overall, no invulnerability, stability, summons or decent condi damage. No spammable skills due to initiative restrictions, but yes! OP! Remove the stealth and the half-broken shadowsteps, pl0x! And while at it, remove their weapons too! Give them a broom!

It’s on the same note with “Ranger OP! 1500 Rapid Shot happy wefs!” and “Necro OP! Remove Death Shroud and Lich Form pl0x!”. How about remove the attunements from eles too?! Make each weapon only give 1 att or 2. And give mesmers only 1 clone, remove the virtues and Elite Focus from guardians and maybe the stances from warriors. You might as well, take the grenades and elixirs away from engineers! Hell! Even better! Give every class a broom as the only weapon!

Edit: Nevermind the broom! Make the Carved Bone Spoon a weapon! And as skills Eat Cereals, and Head Smack, both spammable, 100 range for the attack skill. The “Eat Cereals” will heal for 500 hp, the “Head Smack” will damage for 500 hp. Fair and square!

Vampirism is a legit complain thats pretty much it…

Whats up with all these thief nerf threads lately? They were entertaining at first but getting old pretty quickly….

Thief hardcounters necro kind of made me laugh though good job on that one

I never considered Thief being OP in competitive PvP.
And seeing the balance work, probably will never see.

Some people need to l2p a bit.

:)

Omocha.4931:

I’d say he’s right! Thieves are OP! Lowest HP pool in the game and shabby condi removal, quite a hard choice between survivability and burst overall, no invulnerability, stability, summons or decent condi damage. No spammable skills due to initiative restrictions, but yes! OP! Remove the stealth and the half-broken shadowsteps, pl0x! And while at it, remove their weapons too! Give them a broom!

It’s on the same note with “Ranger OP! 1500 Rapid Shot happy wefs!” and “Necro OP! Remove Death Shroud and Lich Form pl0x!”. How about remove the attunements from eles too?! Make each weapon only give 1 att or 2. And give mesmers only 1 clone, remove the virtues and Elite Focus from guardians and maybe the stances from warriors. You might as well, take the grenades and elixirs away from engineers! Hell! Even better! Give every class a broom as the only weapon!

I get what you’re doing… It’s not funny. But I get it.
Although blind and fury-filled threads are not the best way to begin a discussion, it not a coincidence that so many threads for the thief exist nowadays. What the OP is trying unsuccessfully to do is to highlight the dominance of a specific class in the PvP environment. I do think that everyone kittenpects himself and does some basic pvp knows this to be true. And that’s nothing new.

The difference between the classes you mentioned and the thief is that none of those are represented in top tier pvp. Very very few exceptions. Don’t take this as patronizing, but ranger’s 1500 range and ‘’hurr durr second HP bar necroes’’ is not even close to the problem the thief is creating. Pushing basically every other possible zerk build out, and directly counter them without much retaliation. I am not saying rangers mesmers etc. cannot do the same role as the thief, it’s just that the thief outclass them and many others by a large margin.

tyresias.2306:

Omocha.4931:

I’d say he’s right! Thieves are OP! Lowest HP pool in the game and shabby condi removal, quite a hard choice between survivability and burst overall, no invulnerability, stability, summons or decent condi damage. No spammable skills due to initiative restrictions, but yes! OP! Remove the stealth and the half-broken shadowsteps, pl0x! And while at it, remove their weapons too! Give them a broom!

It’s on the same note with “Ranger OP! 1500 Rapid Shot happy wefs!” and “Necro OP! Remove Death Shroud and Lich Form pl0x!”. How about remove the attunements from eles too?! Make each weapon only give 1 att or 2. And give mesmers only 1 clone, remove the virtues and Elite Focus from guardians and maybe the stances from warriors. You might as well, take the grenades and elixirs away from engineers! Hell! Even better! Give every class a broom as the only weapon!

I get what you’re doing… It’s not funny. But I get it.
Although blind and fury-filled threads are not the best way to begin a discussion, it not a coincidence that so many threads for the thief exist nowadays. What the OP is trying unsuccessfully to do is to highlight the dominance of a specific class in the PvP environment. I do think that everyone kittenpects himself and does some basic pvp knows this to be true. And that’s nothing new.

The difference between the classes you mentioned and the thief is that none of those are represented in top tier pvp. Very very few exceptions. Don’t take this as patronizing, but ranger’s 1500 range and ‘’hurr durr second HP bar necroes’’ is not even close to the problem the thief is creating. Pushing basically every other possible zerk build out, and directly counter them without much retaliation. I am not saying rangers mesmers etc. cannot do the same role as the thief, it’s just that the thief outclass them and many others by a large margin.

you realize 90% of the people complaining are just trolls right?

Elitist.8701:

Hi frands, Teef Teef Teef Teef here, retired best multiclass NA!

I have come to share my closing thoughts on the biggest glaring issue with PvP! The biggest problem with this game is.. you guessed it, TEEF.

/VeeWeeMode

Thief is the most overpowered class in the game. It has the highest map mobility, the highest map control in general, the highest burst setup combined with the 3rd best burst, virtual invincibility with instant 1200 range teleports combined with long stealth durations and high evasiveness via weapon skills, without even traiting for acro.

Now, obviously most top players don’t see Thief as overpowered in 1v1. While in an actual duel a thief will never lose, in a conquest setting it is often not ideal for a thief to engage in 1v1s. Why is this? It’s because with the amount of map control the class has, it’s better to literally run around the map insta killing people in +1s and decapping points than it is to actually contest anything, because thief can force a camp as well, because otherwise the second an enemy leaves a point it’ll get decapped. No other class can influence the map even close to this extent.

Not only that, but then there’s the element of stealth. You might think you have the map under control, but the second you leave a point, there will literally be a thief that pops out of stealth and decaps it before you can react. This is an awful mechanic because there is no counterplay to stealth AT ALL in this game.

Finally, my personal biggest problem. Thief hardcounters necro, mes, and ranger in a conquest environment as well as a 1v1 environment. Having been a necro main when I quit the game, this was one of the worst parts for me. The chances of a good thief losing to a necro in any situation is minimal… same for mes and ranger. This would be ok if you could get away but noooooooo thief will ALWAYS catch you. There is no escape from the most OP class.

Suggested nerfs to Thief:

Reduce all shadowstep ranges by 1/3. i.e. SS max range 800.

Reduce all stealth durations on ALL classes by 1/3. i.e. BP would give 2s stealth instead of 3s.

Change the maximum stealth duration to 5s, down from 13s or whatever it is now.

Reduce thief blind durations to 1s, right now kittenty thieves just spam DP 3 and win instead of actually using it to predict something and dodge it.

Give pistol 4 a 1s cast time and raise initiative cost to 6. In return give it a 2s daze.

Remove panic strike from the game, replace it with some useless trait so people go back to CS Thief.

Gut vampirism runes.

These changes would keep Thief strong as a burst class and wouldn’t effect its 1v1 too much, but it would give the class more counterplay.

I’ll make more threads on what I think the PvP in this game needs. ArenaNet will obviously do none of it, but I don’t really have much to do over the summer XD

Next thread will be on healing and why it’s broken in this game.

I have never agreed with a post more. Your changes are also very good ideas. Withdraw and pistol 4 are balance errors

Maris.3164:

From my personal point of view: I main a thief, I play pvp (and pve). I have never ever had any trouble against thieves on my thief or other professions (including a power necro). Yes, on occasion a good thief kills me on w/e profession I am playing at the time. Good for them, they outplayed me, just like any other good player with another class could have.

But most of the time thieves don’t even offer much of a challenge, not alone at least. OP why do you think that is? I’m not a super good player, average at best. I think it’s because I know what they can do so I can predict their moves to some degree. And ironically, my thief seems to be the most vulnerable against a thief.

Thief is meant to excell at 1v1, but cannot contribute much in a bigger fight, something the other professions can do. Mobility is the sole reason thieves are even in the meta still, they can turn 1v1 into 2v1 faster than any other profession (aside from a mesmer with portal). Take that away and you will see thieves in pvp no more. Stealth is not invulnerability and neither is mobility, you can still cc them and hit them through stealth.

Are you really saying thief is bad in big fights lol?

You couldn’t be more wrong. Refuge is still a way to get resses off. But more than this, if you ever played in a game without a thief there is so much a good player can do to stay alive. A good necro will be kiting like a boss. Line of sighting, porting out. And the same goes for any class. A shoutbow will get low and start to kite. ALL OF THIS is nullified by a single thief. All of it. Now all those low targets will get finished off. Without a thief those targets will be hard to finish off.

As such, thief is the best class is all engagements. Its initiative regen is simply too high. The balance is just way off. A nerf to celestial (which is needed) is going to make thief even more broken. They must receive significant nerfs to their core profession mechanics.

Omocha.4931:

I’d say he’s right! Thieves are OP! Lowest HP pool in the game and shabby condi removal, quite a hard choice between survivability and burst overall, no invulnerability, stability, summons or decent condi damage. No spammable skills due to initiative restrictions, but yes! OP! Remove the stealth and the half-broken shadowsteps, pl0x! And while at it, remove their weapons too! Give them a broom!

It’s on the same note with “Ranger OP! 1500 Rapid Shot happy wefs!” and “Necro OP! Remove Death Shroud and Lich Form pl0x!”. How about remove the attunements from eles too?! Make each weapon only give 1 att or 2. And give mesmers only 1 clone, remove the virtues and Elite Focus from guardians and maybe the stances from warriors. You might as well, take the grenades and elixirs away from engineers! Hell! Even better! Give every class a broom as the only weapon!

Edit: Nevermind the broom! Make the Carved Bone Spoon a weapon! And as skills Eat Cereals, and Head Smack, both spammable, 100 range for the attack skill. The “Eat Cereals” will heal for 500 hp, the “Head Smack” will damage for 500 hp. Fair and square!

Shabby condition removal? The current d/p thief rivals staff ele and shoutbow for the class which is most immune to conditions. So you have literally no idea

What I was trying to say there, Tyresias is that every class has its own strengths and weaknesses. Thieves have mobility and good – but not really spammable – damage, while being extremely vulnerable to cc’s and conditions and with a quite fragile body (in terms of hp).
You would need to address those issues, giving them a much better survival in exchange for lowering mobility. However in that scenario, all classes would have to have the skills and perks that make them special too. Throwing them all in a blender and just give them generic names with not that much difference in playstyle.

Rangers have a lot of tools at their disposal, but most people complain about them being able to camp outside the general range and spam from there quite high damage and annoying skills. It’s not all they do and it’s arguably not the best or most fun way to play ranger
Necros have double hp bars, basically, good condi removal, good damage, both in dots and power builds and a devastating elite skill.
We could go on like this forever, pointing out strengths in all classes and argue a lot of wether they’re balanced or not. Fact is they are NOT. 1v1 or solo play in general isn’t all that supported by GW2’s environment. From instance mechanics to class complementing in pvp, it’s pretty much all about team play and cooperation.

A well played mesmer can make short work of a thief through condition pressure and stealth (Stealth! on a class that has so many other options available! QxQ). A well played mesmer with a well played thief can make a very deadly couple though, hm?!

The moment Anet will say that they’re looking into giving all the classes equal odds in 1v1, then we can start debating about one class being OP. Until then, I think it’s more important to actually learn to play better in a team.

Also, Tyresias. People tend to complain more about the things that are out of their grasp. Were the other players be given the mobility and stealth too, they’ll be more than happy! Can you imagine a necro with them? or a guardian? Can you also imagine a thief with a guardian’s survivability? or with the mesmer’s clones? or being able to spam 20 skills like the ele?
Thieves are pests and are designed to be treated as such. Lot of annoyance, very small chance of dying of old age or natural causes ^x^

On a side note, I’ve seen the fixing for the condition builds that is gonna arrive with HoT. That’s arguably a death sentence for this particular class. But that doesn’t matter much, I guess. It’s not about how easy a thief can die, but how fast he/she can down you and steal your cap point. That spells hypocrisy for me

Rickster.8752:

Are you really saying thief is bad in big fights lol?

In cluster F situations, thief simply have no window to join the fight, except spamming SB skills.
Otherwise he’ll eat all AoEs and simply die within a single second.
But in non cluster F fights but still Team Fights, Thief is the most deadly class in game.

:)

Omocha.4931:

What I was trying to say there, Tyresias is that every class has its own strengths and weaknesses. Thieves have mobility and good – but not really spammable – damage, while being extremely vulnerable to cc’s and conditions and with a quite fragile body (in terms of hp).
You would need to address those issues, giving them a much better survival in exchange for lowering mobility. However in that scenario, all classes would have to have the skills and perks that make them special too. Throwing them all in a blender and just give them generic names with not that much difference in playstyle.

Rangers have a lot of tools at their disposal, but most people complain about them being able to camp outside the general range and spam from there quite high damage and annoying skills. It’s not all they do and it’s arguably not the best or most fun way to play ranger
Necros have double hp bars, basically, good condi removal, good damage, both in dots and power builds and a devastating elite skill.
We could go on like this forever, pointing out strengths in all classes and argue a lot of wether they’re balanced or not. Fact is they are NOT. 1v1 or solo play in general isn’t all that supported by GW2’s environment. From instance mechanics to class complementing in pvp, it’s pretty much all about team play and cooperation.

A well played mesmer can make short work of a thief through condition pressure and stealth (Stealth! on a class that has so many other options available! QxQ). A well played mesmer with a well played thief can make a very deadly couple though, hm?!

The moment Anet will say that they’re looking into giving all the classes equal odds in 1v1, then we can start debating about one class being OP. Until then, I think it’s more important to actually learn to play better in a team.

Also, Tyresias. People tend to complain more about the things that are out of their grasp. Were the other players be given the mobility and stealth too, they’ll be more than happy! Can you imagine a necro with them? or a guardian? Can you also imagine a thief with a guardian’s survivability? or with the mesmer’s clones? or being able to spam 20 skills like the ele?
Thieves are pests and are designed to be treated as such. Lot of annoyance, very small chance of dying of old age or natural causes ^x^

On a side note, I’ve seen the fixing for the condition builds that is gonna arrive with HoT. That’s arguably a death sentence for this particular class. But that doesn’t matter much, I guess. It’s not about how easy a thief can die, but how fast he/she can down you and steal your cap point. That spells hypocrisy for me

If they make what you say true then thief will be fine. Currently that is not the case.

Vulnerable to CC – this is the opposite. Thieves are very strong to cc and also very very strong against immobalise with withdraw and ports.
Vulnerable to conditions – I presume you are unaware of the meta thief spec but it is essentially immune to conditions. It can even 1v1 a condition engineer with ease now. The stealth remvoes the conditions and they run 2 stealth utilities. In addition shadowstep is condition removal.
Not spammable damage – thieves core design with no cds means they can spam bursts at any time they want to.

Rickster.8752:

Maris.3164:

From my personal point of view: I main a thief, I play pvp (and pve). I have never ever had any trouble against thieves on my thief or other professions (including a power necro). Yes, on occasion a good thief kills me on w/e profession I am playing at the time. Good for them, they outplayed me, just like any other good player with another class could have.

But most of the time thieves don’t even offer much of a challenge, not alone at least. OP why do you think that is? I’m not a super good player, average at best. I think it’s because I know what they can do so I can predict their moves to some degree. And ironically, my thief seems to be the most vulnerable against a thief.

Thief is meant to excell at 1v1, but cannot contribute much in a bigger fight, something the other professions can do. Mobility is the sole reason thieves are even in the meta still, they can turn 1v1 into 2v1 faster than any other profession (aside from a mesmer with portal). Take that away and you will see thieves in pvp no more. Stealth is not invulnerability and neither is mobility, you can still cc them and hit them through stealth.

Are you really saying thief is bad in big fights lol?

You couldn’t be more wrong. Refuge is still a way to get resses off. But more than this, if you ever played in a game without a thief there is so much a good player can do to stay alive. A good necro will be kiting like a boss. Line of sighting, porting out. And the same goes for any class. A shoutbow will get low and start to kite. ALL OF THIS is nullified by a single thief. All of it. Now all those low targets will get finished off. Without a thief those targets will be hard to finish off.

As such, thief is the best class is all engagements. Its initiative regen is simply too high. The balance is just way off. A nerf to celestial (which is needed) is going to make thief even more broken. They must receive significant nerfs to their core profession mechanics.

All of.. your two examples? By the time the warrior is low on health, Thief would have left point ages ago. He can’t handle the AoE pressure in mid unless he’s spec’d to fight like a Warrior doing 1/4 of the damage… and what good is that? I’ve seen a thief get 1 shotted by a Lich. Let’s not pretend a Thief can hard counter a necro when the water’s boiling. The only thing you have as an argument is thief > mesmer > ranger IF that thief can get there. I’ve seen the complete opposite happen so many times.

A Thief is forced off point all too often. That reason alone is why few people dislike them. Again, if it wasn’t for their great +1 and backcap abilities they wouldn’t be utilized at all. Shadow Refuge is basically their only support option and is a hit or miss during downed states. But on a sync’d team, when it works, it works marvelously.

Saiyan.1704:

Rickster.8752:

Maris.3164:

From my personal point of view: I main a thief, I play pvp (and pve). I have never ever had any trouble against thieves on my thief or other professions (including a power necro). Yes, on occasion a good thief kills me on w/e profession I am playing at the time. Good for them, they outplayed me, just like any other good player with another class could have.

But most of the time thieves don’t even offer much of a challenge, not alone at least. OP why do you think that is? I’m not a super good player, average at best. I think it’s because I know what they can do so I can predict their moves to some degree. And ironically, my thief seems to be the most vulnerable against a thief.

Thief is meant to excell at 1v1, but cannot contribute much in a bigger fight, something the other professions can do. Mobility is the sole reason thieves are even in the meta still, they can turn 1v1 into 2v1 faster than any other profession (aside from a mesmer with portal). Take that away and you will see thieves in pvp no more. Stealth is not invulnerability and neither is mobility, you can still cc them and hit them through stealth.

Are you really saying thief is bad in big fights lol?

You couldn’t be more wrong. Refuge is still a way to get resses off. But more than this, if you ever played in a game without a thief there is so much a good player can do to stay alive. A good necro will be kiting like a boss. Line of sighting, porting out. And the same goes for any class. A shoutbow will get low and start to kite. ALL OF THIS is nullified by a single thief. All of it. Now all those low targets will get finished off. Without a thief those targets will be hard to finish off.

As such, thief is the best class is all engagements. Its initiative regen is simply too high. The balance is just way off. A nerf to celestial (which is needed) is going to make thief even more broken. They must receive significant nerfs to their core profession mechanics.

All of.. your two examples? By the time warrior is low on health the Thief would have left point because he can’t handle the AoE pressure in mid. The only thing you have as an argument is thief > mesmer > ranger IF that thief can get there. I’ve seen a thief get 1 shotted by a Lich. Let’s not pretend a Thief can hard counter a necro when the water’s boiling in mid. I’ve seen the complete opposite happen so many times.

A Thief is forced off point all too often. That reason alone is why few people dislike them. Again, if it wasn’t for their great +1 and backcap abilities they wouldn’t be utilized at all. Shadow Refuge is basically their only support option and is a hit or miss during downed states. But on a sync’d team, when it works, it works marvelously.

Those examples are literally every team fight with competent players. Good players dont just sit there and die when they are the focus target and are low on cds. They kite to stay alive and regen cool downs. This is nullified by thief. And that isnt a small issue. With good players that is everything. Otherwise most of the time all your dps will be wasted.

I am talking about only probably the top 100-200 players in the game I guess. Only those players have the skills needed to produce damage and kite at the same time. This skilled gameplay is shut down by thief because you cannot kite or disengage it.

+1 troll post, was a good read, troll approved.

tyresias.2306:

Omocha.4931:

I’d say he’s right! Thieves are OP! Lowest HP pool in the game and shabby condi removal, quite a hard choice between survivability and burst overall, no invulnerability, stability, summons or decent condi damage. No spammable skills due to initiative restrictions, but yes! OP! Remove the stealth and the half-broken shadowsteps, pl0x! And while at it, remove their weapons too! Give them a broom!

It’s on the same note with “Ranger OP! 1500 Rapid Shot happy wefs!” and “Necro OP! Remove Death Shroud and Lich Form pl0x!”. How about remove the attunements from eles too?! Make each weapon only give 1 att or 2. And give mesmers only 1 clone, remove the virtues and Elite Focus from guardians and maybe the stances from warriors. You might as well, take the grenades and elixirs away from engineers! Hell! Even better! Give every class a broom as the only weapon!

I get what you’re doing… It’s not funny. But I get it.
Although blind and fury-filled threads are not the best way to begin a discussion, it not a coincidence that so many threads for the thief exist nowadays. What the OP is trying unsuccessfully to do is to highlight the dominance of a specific class in the PvP environment. I do think that everyone kittenpects himself and does some basic pvp knows this to be true. And that’s nothing new.

The difference between the classes you mentioned and the thief is that none of those are represented in top tier pvp. Very very few exceptions. Don’t take this as patronizing, but ranger’s 1500 range and ‘’hurr durr second HP bar necroes’’ is not even close to the problem the thief is creating. Pushing basically every other possible zerk build out, and directly counter them without much retaliation. I am not saying rangers mesmers etc. cannot do the same role as the thief, it’s just that the thief outclass them and many others by a large margin.

Aside pushing all other zerk specs out from the meta, those problems thief is creating are way worse.

1. It forces point camping, cuz stealth and superior mobility ( this gives the thief UNMATCHED map control that alone forces meta into a certain way).

2. surv-damage/utility ratio is WAY WAY off.
D/P panic strike is basically immune to both damage ( stealth, teleports, blinds) and conditions ( condi remove in stealth + ridicolous stealth uptime thx to blinding powder, initiative latest buff and impro procs).

Inb4 " IMMUNE TO DAMAGE ROFL L2P";

Good panic strike thieves will never die unless out of cds. If a thief is out of CDs, he’s bad.

The only thing capable to kill a thief is another thief. This at high level play.

If you"next poster" disagree then you are so below that level that u can’t even imagine what a capable thief can do.

If so, don’t even reply to me, i won’t bother replying again.

Cele needs to be nerfed hard.

Thief needs to be nerfed harder ( especially air/fire and runes).

Thief was balanced only when played on crit strikes, current thief is simply a joke and should be gutted.

Rickster.8752:

Vulnerable to CC – this is the opposite. Thieves are very strong to cc and also very very strong against immobalise with withdraw and ports.

Assuming you get 1 cc every other fight, yes. The wide aoe cripple from rangers, coupled with pulls from guards, cripples and immob from necros and warriors… There’s a lot of cc’ing that the thief can’t handle all the time. Needless to add they are quite short on stability skills.

Rickster.8752:

Vulnerable to conditions – I presume you are unaware of the meta thief spec but it is essentially immune to conditions. It can even 1v1 a condition engineer with ease now. The stealth remvoes the conditions and they run 2 stealth utilities. In addition shadowstep is condition removal.

I’m totally unware of the meta. I do know that stealth removes 1 (one, not 10) conditions every 3 seconds and that mesmers and necros can put more than 3 in 1 second.
I’m also aware that Infiltrator’s skill on sword is a condi removal that eats up half the ini bar for 1 condition and that SS is removing conditions at the cost of stunbreaks and mobility. Your point is?!

Rickster.8752:

Not spammable damage – thieves core design with no cds means they can spam bursts at any time they want to.

No cds are well balanced by initiative. Thieves can “spam” any skill while their ini lasts. Which is roughly 4 HS’s or one stealth chain on S/P and 1 leap (which btw, is a rush, not a leap). Or 2 pistol whips, 4 Clusters… and that’s about it. Eles can spam 20 skills without caring much about cooldowns, and engineers can yolo grenades all the time. If not spammable, most skills on all classes have apropriate cooldowns. In general, it doesn’t feel like a gain, but more like a constraint.
Thieves can burst at any time they want if they don’t spam. They can’t spam. HS spammers aren’t being thought too much of, iirc.
I respect your opinion, but from my point of view (played almost all classes, to feel the difference), thieves are actually needing better both condition removal and damage. They’re however, not breaking the game and are not in a need of a nerf. If anything, the meta should consider their existence as possible and adjust to the cap/decaps and finishers (btw! staying put in a group fight so you can survive to finish of the running enemies is kinda depressing. Makes you feel like the cavalry that arrives at the end of the battle ^x^)
What DOES need nerfing is the proc chance of the sigils though. Fire, Air, etc.

Mrbig.8019:

tyresias.2306:

Omocha.4931:

I’d say he’s right! Thieves are OP! Lowest HP pool in the game and shabby condi removal, quite a hard choice between survivability and burst overall, no invulnerability, stability, summons or decent condi damage. No spammable skills due to initiative restrictions, but yes! OP! Remove the stealth and the half-broken shadowsteps, pl0x! And while at it, remove their weapons too! Give them a broom!

It’s on the same note with “Ranger OP! 1500 Rapid Shot happy wefs!” and “Necro OP! Remove Death Shroud and Lich Form pl0x!”. How about remove the attunements from eles too?! Make each weapon only give 1 att or 2. And give mesmers only 1 clone, remove the virtues and Elite Focus from guardians and maybe the stances from warriors. You might as well, take the grenades and elixirs away from engineers! Hell! Even better! Give every class a broom as the only weapon!

I get what you’re doing… It’s not funny. But I get it.
Although blind and fury-filled threads are not the best way to begin a discussion, it not a coincidence that so many threads for the thief exist nowadays. What the OP is trying unsuccessfully to do is to highlight the dominance of a specific class in the PvP environment. I do think that everyone kittenpects himself and does some basic pvp knows this to be true. And that’s nothing new.

The difference between the classes you mentioned and the thief is that none of those are represented in top tier pvp. Very very few exceptions. Don’t take this as patronizing, but ranger’s 1500 range and ‘’hurr durr second HP bar necroes’’ is not even close to the problem the thief is creating. Pushing basically every other possible zerk build out, and directly counter them without much retaliation. I am not saying rangers mesmers etc. cannot do the same role as the thief, it’s just that the thief outclass them and many others by a large margin.

Aside pushing all other zerk specs out from the meta, those problems thief is creating are way worse.

1. It forces point camping, cuz stealth and superior mobility ( this gives the thief UNMATCHED map control that alone forces meta into a certain way).

2. surv-damage/utility ratio is WAY WAY off.
D/P panic strike is basically immune to both damage ( stealth, teleports, blinds) and conditions ( condi remove in stealth + ridicolous stealth uptime thx to blinding powder, initiative latest buff and impro procs).

Inb4 " IMMUNE TO DAMAGE ROFL L2P";

Good panic strike thieves will never die unless out of cds. If a thief is out of CDs, he’s bad.

The only thing capable to kill a thief is another thief. This at high level play.

If you"next poster" disagree then you are so below that level that u can’t even imagine what a capable thief can do.

If so, don’t even reply to me, i won’t bother replying again.

Cele needs to be nerfed hard.

Thief needs to be nerfed harder ( especially air/fire and runes).

Thief was balanced only when played on crit strikes, current thief is simply a joke and should be gutted.

Lol what a joke srsly?

Good thieves will never die… i see thieves die in ESL tournaments all the time means they are all bad right?

This whole thread is a huge joke its not even funny anymore

Yesterday abjured won ESL monthly without a thief in their comp but a necro… how is that even possible? I mean enemies had a thief zerker necro should have been downstate 24/7, how was nos not dead all the time? Explain pls because obviously enemy thief should have zoned him out constantly.

Mrbig.8019:

The only thing capable to kill a thief is another thief. This at high level play.

If you"next poster" disagree then you are so below that level that u can’t even imagine what a capable thief can do.

If so, don’t even reply to me, i won’t bother replying again.

Cele needs to be nerfed hard.

Thief needs to be nerfed harder ( especially air/fire and runes).

And before they become that good, all thieves just need to be trampled by everyone, right?! ’Cause who cares about anything not “high-end”. Certainly not the elitists.

Also, might worth pointing out that thieves aren’t “fire/ele and runes” they’re a class, not gear upgrades.

Teef, your life is pretty sad if you need to constantly post on the forums for a game that you don’t like/play.

glock.6590:

Thief is not not OP but its game breaking . Even if they nerf it more than they already did it will still be broken due to the core mechanics of the class. The only solution is to redesign the class or leave it that way.

You could literally nerf everything by 30% and it would still be broken . Because other classes can’t match an initiative system which allows to spam daze/blind , high stealth/ evade uptime depeding on the build and multiple instant gap closers.

And long stealth duration in conquest is just stupid. If a thief goes stealth near your close point, you basically either have to afk there or move and get decapped 3 seconds later. No matter what you do ,the thief wins by making you waste time or kill your teammates outnumbered while you sit there and wonder if you gonna get decapped or not.

Stealth duration need a nerf for sure. Getting 1 sec of stealth for a blast/leap sounds reasonable and 5 sec on shadow refuge would be great too.

Since thief is so “broken” how did abjured win without a thief in their comp with enemy team running one? I mean obviously thief team should have cuz thief prof is so broken in this game, right?

Omocha.4931:

Rickster.8752:

Vulnerable to CC – this is the opposite. Thieves are very strong to cc and also very very strong against immobalise with withdraw and ports.

Assuming you get 1 cc every other fight, yes. The wide aoe cripple from rangers, coupled with pulls from guards, cripples and immob from necros and warriors… There’s a lot of cc’ing that the thief can’t handle all the time. Needless to add they are quite short on stability skills.

Rickster.8752:

Vulnerable to conditions – I presume you are unaware of the meta thief spec but it is essentially immune to conditions. It can even 1v1 a condition engineer with ease now. The stealth remvoes the conditions and they run 2 stealth utilities. In addition shadowstep is condition removal.

I’m totally unware of the meta. I do know that stealth removes 1 (one, not 10) conditions every 3 seconds and that mesmers and necros can put more than 3 in 1 second.
I’m also aware that Infiltrator’s skill on sword is a condi removal that eats up half the ini bar for 1 condition and that SS is removing conditions at the cost of stunbreaks and mobility. Your point is?!

Rickster.8752:

Not spammable damage – thieves core design with no cds means they can spam bursts at any time they want to.

No cds are well balanced by initiative. Thieves can “spam” any skill while their ini lasts. Which is roughly 4 HS’s or one stealth chain on S/P and 1 leap (which btw, is a rush, not a leap). Or 2 pistol whips, 4 Clusters… and that’s about it. Eles can spam 20 skills without caring much about cooldowns, and engineers can yolo grenades all the time. If not spammable, most skills on all classes have apropriate cooldowns. In general, it doesn’t feel like a gain, but more like a constraint.
Thieves can burst at any time they want if they don’t spam. They can’t spam. HS spammers aren’t being thought too much of, iirc.
I respect your opinion, but from my point of view (played almost all classes, to feel the difference), thieves are actually needing better both condition removal and damage. They’re however, not breaking the game and are not in a need of a nerf. If anything, the meta should consider their existence as possible and adjust to the cap/decaps and finishers (btw! staying put in a group fight so you can survive to finish of the running enemies is kinda depressing. Makes you feel like the cavalry that arrives at the end of the battle ^x^)
What DOES need nerfing is the proc chance of the sigils though. Fire, Air, etc.

1, Immobilize is literally worthless vs a thief. If we make withdraw a 20-25s cd then we can start to talk.
2, You basically won’t die to conditions on the meta spec. Not ever. The condition removal is so much. And any covering conditions for the damaging conditions are easily removed by…guess what…withdraw again! Which is always off cd because the cd is so so short.
3, Thief initative costs are balanced around the original iniative regen rate at release which has since been buffed considerably. This in effect worked to reduce all thief cds by 35%. Imagine this happened to another class. Imagine one day anet said "we are reducing all warrior weapon skills cd by 35%. It would be busted like thief is now! Take headshot as an example. It costs a mere 4 initiative for such a strong effect. That is regained in only 4 seconds. And you dont even have to wait that long if you dont want. You can spam it a few times. So its a very strong skill with (at most) a 4 second cooldown. That is totally ridiculous. They need to increase about 75-80% of thief weapon skills costs to rebalance them imo.

And a thief will have full initative in about 10 seconds even if they are out of it. Other classes you have to use a skill and then its gone for 40 seconds.

I do agree with sigils needing nerfs though. I respect yours and everyone elses opinion too. I just disagree strongly.

glock.6590:

Thief is not not OP but its game breaking . Even if they nerf it more than they already did it will still be broken due to the core mechanics of the class. The only solution is to redesign the class or leave it that way.

You could literally nerf everything by 30% and it would still be broken . Because other classes can’t match an initiative system which allows to spam daze/blind , high stealth/ evade uptime depeding on the build and multiple instant gap closers.

And long stealth duration in conquest is just stupid. If a thief goes stealth near your close point, you basically either have to afk there or move and get decapped 3 seconds later. No matter what you do ,the thief wins by making you waste time or kill your teammates outnumbered while you sit there and wonder if you gonna get decapped or not.

Stealth duration need a nerf for sure. Getting 1 sec of stealth for a blast/leap sounds reasonable and 5 sec on shadow refuge would be great too.

Well said. Don’t forget how frustrating it is to get the better of a thief but he drops refuge before he dies and self resses. But yeh it leads to frustrating game play all round. Camping close till a thief reappears 10 seconds later is really lame. It isn’t fun. And it is not fair. Because by the time you get to middle the thief will of killed everyone there by +1ing.

My Engi loves killing Thieves
( I didn’t want to write a long paragraph)

Rickster.8752:

Omocha.4931:

Rickster.8752:

Vulnerable to CC – this is the opposite. Thieves are very strong to cc and also very very strong against immobalise with withdraw and ports.

Assuming you get 1 cc every other fight, yes. The wide aoe cripple from rangers, coupled with pulls from guards, cripples and immob from necros and warriors… There’s a lot of cc’ing that the thief can’t handle all the time. Needless to add they are quite short on stability skills.

Rickster.8752:

Vulnerable to conditions – I presume you are unaware of the meta thief spec but it is essentially immune to conditions. It can even 1v1 a condition engineer with ease now. The stealth remvoes the conditions and they run 2 stealth utilities. In addition shadowstep is condition removal.

I’m totally unware of the meta. I do know that stealth removes 1 (one, not 10) conditions every 3 seconds and that mesmers and necros can put more than 3 in 1 second.
I’m also aware that Infiltrator’s skill on sword is a condi removal that eats up half the ini bar for 1 condition and that SS is removing conditions at the cost of stunbreaks and mobility. Your point is?!

Rickster.8752:

Not spammable damage – thieves core design with no cds means they can spam bursts at any time they want to.

No cds are well balanced by initiative. Thieves can “spam” any skill while their ini lasts. Which is roughly 4 HS’s or one stealth chain on S/P and 1 leap (which btw, is a rush, not a leap). Or 2 pistol whips, 4 Clusters… and that’s about it. Eles can spam 20 skills without caring much about cooldowns, and engineers can yolo grenades all the time. If not spammable, most skills on all classes have apropriate cooldowns. In general, it doesn’t feel like a gain, but more like a constraint.
Thieves can burst at any time they want if they don’t spam. They can’t spam. HS spammers aren’t being thought too much of, iirc.
I respect your opinion, but from my point of view (played almost all classes, to feel the difference), thieves are actually needing better both condition removal and damage. They’re however, not breaking the game and are not in a need of a nerf. If anything, the meta should consider their existence as possible and adjust to the cap/decaps and finishers (btw! staying put in a group fight so you can survive to finish of the running enemies is kinda depressing. Makes you feel like the cavalry that arrives at the end of the battle ^x^)
What DOES need nerfing is the proc chance of the sigils though. Fire, Air, etc.

1, Immobilize is literally worthless vs a thief. If we make withdraw a 20-25s cd then we can start to talk.
2, You basically won’t die to conditions on the meta spec. Not ever. The condition removal is so much. And any covering conditions for the damaging conditions are easily removed by…guess what…withdraw again! Which is always off cd because the cd is so so short.
3, Thief initative costs are balanced around the original iniative regen rate at release which has since been buffed considerably. This in effect worked to reduce all thief cds by 35%. Imagine this happened to another class. Imagine one day anet said "we are reducing all warrior weapon skills cd by 35%. It would be busted like thief is now! Take headshot as an example. It costs a mere 4 initiative for such a strong effect. That is regained in only 4 seconds. And you dont even have to wait that long if you dont want. You can spam it a few times. So its a very strong skill with (at most) a 4 second cooldown. That is totally ridiculous. They need to increase about 75-80% of thief weapon skills costs to rebalance them imo.

And a thief will have full initative in about 10 seconds even if they are out of it. Other classes you have to use a skill and then its gone for 40 seconds.

I do agree with sigils needing nerfs though. I respect yours and everyone elses opinion too. I just disagree strongly.

1. Withdraw maybe a bit too much yes
2. Withdraw always off CD lol… last time i checked i did have a CD pls stop making stuff up thanks. Also thief has to be in stealth to remove conditions and it is only 1 every 3 seconds he is in stealth. So in order for the thief to remove conditions he has to burn initiative or CDs… so op… yea… lol
3. You forgot to add that they nerfed ini gain from traits along with that base ini regen boost. This happened in order to open up more build diversity since back then pretty much everyone was running these traits. But how could you know, probably never played thief for more than 20 hours anyway.

10 sec to regain full initiative mhm mhm… making stuff up now arent we? You realize thief is the only class in this game that has global CDs for BOTH of this weapon sets right? Probably not.

babayum.1895:

Since thief is so “broken” how did abjured win without a thief in their comp with enemy team running one? I mean obviously thief team should have cuz thief prof is so broken in this game, right?

When did Abjured not play with Magic Toker?

Teutos.8620:

babayum.1895:

Since thief is so “broken” how did abjured win without a thief in their comp with enemy team running one? I mean obviously thief team should have cuz thief prof is so broken in this game, right?

When did Abjured not play with Magic Toker?

They played with toker but he was on engi… they played 2x engi, 1x ele, 1x necro, 1x warrior

My opinion regarding condition damage mitigating on thief comes from practicing vs my gf playing condi mesmer with a lot of stealths. I was even more new to the profession, but it’s enough to say that in 4 hours of pvp I could down her a couple of times only.
I agree to some of the skills being really strong (Headshot is a deliciously spammable cc, a lot more frustrating I guess than Point Blank Shot or Rapid Fire). I do believe though that the current balance for the thieves’ skills tend to take into consideration the less high-end players too. Make the profession too demanding and you can safely remove it from character creation, ’cause almost no one will bother.

There are two things that would sort things out. Redesigning the sigils (maybe splitting them for pve/pvp) and splitting the skills – gw1 style – for pvp too. It’s quite ridiculous to have the same skills used in 5v5 pvp where everyone’s hp is under 30k and in 5v5 pve where mobs’ health skyrockets. And while gw1 had roughly equal sized hp pools for both players and mobs, they still used split skills for balance purpose.
The classes’ nerfs needed in pvp (not only thieves’) would ruin the experience in pve quite drastically…

Meta specs. I have an idea! Remove all other possible gear/traits/skills combos from the game. And adjust the mechanics around the “meta” surviving builds! Maybe, just maybe, take into consideration that not all people follow the meta, not all people go for the high-end ranked pvp or high-end dungeon runs. And as such, the requested balances can really ruin most of the other possible builds.

Lastly, there was a guy requesting hyena’s cripple skill to be removed ’cause it was annoying him. Most of the posts seem like that. Regarding all classes.

babayum.1895:

They played with toker but he was on engi… they played 2x engi, 1x ele, 1x necro, 1x warrior

When was that? Just curious.

Teutos.8620:

babayum.1895:

They played with toker but he was on engi… they played 2x engi, 1x ele, 1x necro, 1x warrior

When was that? Just curious.

ESL monthly finals yesterday

won 2-0 without thief how is that possible ?!?!?

babayum.1895:

glock.6590:

Thief is not not OP but its game breaking . Even if they nerf it more than they already did it will still be broken due to the core mechanics of the class. The only solution is to redesign the class or leave it that way.

You could literally nerf everything by 30% and it would still be broken . Because other classes can’t match an initiative system which allows to spam daze/blind , high stealth/ evade uptime depeding on the build and multiple instant gap closers.

And long stealth duration in conquest is just stupid. If a thief goes stealth near your close point, you basically either have to afk there or move and get decapped 3 seconds later. No matter what you do ,the thief wins by making you waste time or kill your teammates outnumbered while you sit there and wonder if you gonna get decapped or not.

Stealth duration need a nerf for sure. Getting 1 sec of stealth for a blast/leap sounds reasonable and 5 sec on shadow refuge would be great too.

Since thief is so “broken” how did abjured win without a thief in their comp with enemy team running one? I mean obviously thief team should have cuz thief prof is so broken in this game, right?

Why aren’t the teef haters replying to this post? :O

Omocha.4931:

Maybe, just maybe, take into consideration that not all people follow the meta,

So you are saying: It does not matter how broken a certain spec is, because not everyone is playing it? Yes, the goal is to only shave op-builds and at the same time buff too weak builds. But then we are already discussing the details.

My personal opinion is, that the Vampirism-Rune Mist Form Proc needs to get removed asap. Discussing specific skills and utilities is currently useless, since there is a whole trait revamp on our way.

babayum.1895:

ESL monthly finals yesterday

won 2-0 without thief how is that possible ?!?!?

Do you remember who streamed it? Can’t find it.

I guess, it is just the overwhelming personal skill of Abjured compared to the rest of NA. Still think in an imaginary fight between Abjured with Toker on Thief would beat Abjured with Toker on Engi.

My main issues with thief is not that they are OP but that they are not fun to fight against. I would even be fine if they decrease their roaming ability(because they effectively cast aside any other class for the roaming role. With their superior map control). Decrease their stealth capabilities a bit(or provide more counter play) and then buff them a bit defense wise in other ways. This is probably not a great solution but i just want to fight a thief and have it be fun! Even if i win against a thief it still isn’t fun and for me they are the only class that does that

babayum.1895:

glock.6590:

Thief is not not OP but its game breaking . Even if they nerf it more than they already did it will still be broken due to the core mechanics of the class. The only solution is to redesign the class or leave it that way.

You could literally nerf everything by 30% and it would still be broken . Because other classes can’t match an initiative system which allows to spam daze/blind , high stealth/ evade uptime depeding on the build and multiple instant gap closers.

And long stealth duration in conquest is just stupid. If a thief goes stealth near your close point, you basically either have to afk there or move and get decapped 3 seconds later. No matter what you do ,the thief wins by making you waste time or kill your teammates outnumbered while you sit there and wonder if you gonna get decapped or not.

Stealth duration need a nerf for sure. Getting 1 sec of stealth for a blast/leap sounds reasonable and 5 sec on shadow refuge would be great too.

Since thief is so “broken” how did abjured win without a thief in their comp with enemy team running one? I mean obviously thief team should have cuz thief prof is so broken in this game, right?

Because they stacked celestial self-sustain bunker classes to win. Thats how. And thats the only reliable counter to thief. Being tanky and having good sustained damage/healing does well against thief.

glock.6590:

babayum.1895:

glock.6590:

Thief is not not OP but its game breaking . Even if they nerf it more than they already did it will still be broken due to the core mechanics of the class. The only solution is to redesign the class or leave it that way.

You could literally nerf everything by 30% and it would still be broken . Because other classes can’t match an initiative system which allows to spam daze/blind , high stealth/ evade uptime depeding on the build and multiple instant gap closers.

And long stealth duration in conquest is just stupid. If a thief goes stealth near your close point, you basically either have to afk there or move and get decapped 3 seconds later. No matter what you do ,the thief wins by making you waste time or kill your teammates outnumbered while you sit there and wonder if you gonna get decapped or not.

Stealth duration need a nerf for sure. Getting 1 sec of stealth for a blast/leap sounds reasonable and 5 sec on shadow refuge would be great too.

Since thief is so “broken” how did abjured win without a thief in their comp with enemy team running one? I mean obviously thief team should have cuz thief prof is so broken in this game, right?

Because they stacked celestial self-sustain bunker classes to win. Thats how. And thats the only reliable counter to thief. Being tanky and having good sustained damage/healing does well against thief.

But thief is so op there is no way to beat it unless it gets nerfed massively?!?!? I am confused now…

I see the thief as a class that actually improves competitive matches by a lot…people have to pay attention and actually have map awareness in conquest with a class like the thief. Without thief there would be WAY less risk to bringing a high damage zerker settup like mes, power necro and rangers…which would make THOSE classes OP. As it stands the thief makes people think twice about just running zerk, and they have to pay attention to their survival tools and positioning to ensure they don’t get caught out at a bad time. It’s a class that people have to think about dealing with…which may be too difficult for some. I’d understand wanting the game to be easier sometimes but that dosen’t help competitive play.

Also claiming that there are NO counterplays to stealth is just hyperbolic and dumb, massive AoE spam that most meta classes have access to can kill a thief or force him to reset easily if you pay attention to where they are moving. A good thief will make this harder, but again you need to use your BRAIN to learn what they are doing and stop them (ever try just waiting till you know they need to attack or get destealthed then aoe bombing yourself? Necro engie ele guard warr etc..). There is even reveal, which only a few classes have access to but that is LITERALLY a stealth counterplay mechanic.

For a little perspective, my main is a shatter mesmer, the class that thieves compete w/ for team space and role the most, and 1 that hard counters a mes when they +1 on them (which is pretty much their job in a team environment besides roaming and decapping). I’ve been killed by bad thieves, and I’ve killed good ones, positioning and CD management is the key here and a mesmer can kill them 1v1. I’d say I have an easier time on both my necro and my ranger than my mes, and even on my mes I see it as a hazard to being otherwise a really strong zerker burst class with high mobility and team utility. Everything needs a balance, and thieves help that so much. Would you prefer 5v5 all cele + bunker classes that teamfight all game or people actually use strategy and movement to make conquest more exciting?

glock.6590:

Because they stacked celestial self-sustain bunker classes to win. Thats how. And thats the only reliable counter to thief. Being tanky and having good sustained damage/healing does well against thief.

Then what if someone does stomp thieves in other builds except celestial ones?
Like with power builds, bunker builds, condi builds?

Must be a lie, right?
Or hax!

:’)

Fun story anet will change thief.

But probably thief will be more op than now with new traits change.

QQ will be real after the content patch.

Well as a mesmer, thief is my hardcounter however I can beat them it just takes a bit of patience and timing. If I kite out his stealth and manage to dodge his backstabs or pull off invulnerability when needed I just need to get in 1 good combo and he’s dead. I however dislike when he dies in that long stealth, everybody runs off and he gets himself up. However a thief needs these mechanics to be effective. Like others have said, you take away what a thief does best and you can essentially just replace him with any other class. A thieve’s ability to roam the map quickly and get in and out of situations is all part of the classes role. I would say nerf the rangers longbow (2) skill before worrying about the thief.

The more I’ve taken to learn my class as mesmer is mostly all I play, no class is hardcountering me. Yes back when I started out as a mesmer I got wrecked but I refrained from coming on the forums and moaning, instead I mastered it and now I can effectively get out of most situations and counter most fights. People could say I’m OP because my instant damage output but yet not everyone can pull it off. When looking at a nooby thief, they spam their backstab steal and I just circle them laughing as its a simple thing to avoid.
Know your class before making any assessments. I do think the thieve’s stealth may need a very little look at but otherwise don’t take away what they’re good at.

My conclusion would be to master your class. MASTER it. Don’t get into the odd situations with a hard counter and kitten why they were able to get you and not what you could have done differently. Everytime I die, it is my fault. It the team is severely loosing then I couldn’t have done anything differently without support. But effectively it is your fault. You have a brain right? If you come across a class you know is going to out do you in a certain way (stealth) then out think him/her. Predict movements. When a thief goes stealth towards me, I wait a few seconds and stealth out until they’re revealed. Most classes have a block/invulnerable skill that they could use in place of stealth. Plenty of ways to get out of situations but its easier to ask arena net to help you so you do better.

I HATED rangers, now I merely drop them in a heartbeat because most that play just pew pew and have no reaction for when I come out of the blue and combo them. Their number 2 skill is overpowered slightly. But all I ask is that you firstly look at all your other possible scenarios before coming out with a problem requiring a nerf. I read a necro can easily counter a thief. This isn’t an imbalance this is a lack of skill on your half. Please focus on the real problems of the game.
Like build diversity.

Rickster.8752:

Saiyan.1704:

Rickster.8752:

Are you really saying thief is bad in big fights lol?

You couldn’t be more wrong. Refuge is still a way to get resses off. But more than this, if you ever played in a game without a thief there is so much a good player can do to stay alive. A good necro will be kiting like a boss. Line of sighting, porting out. And the same goes for any class. A shoutbow will get low and start to kite. ALL OF THIS is nullified by a single thief. All of it. Now all those low targets will get finished off. Without a thief those targets will be hard to finish off.

As such, thief is the best class is all engagements. Its initiative regen is simply too high. The balance is just way off. A nerf to celestial (which is needed) is going to make thief even more broken. They must receive significant nerfs to their core profession mechanics.

All of.. your two examples? By the time warrior is low on health the Thief would have left point because he can’t handle the AoE pressure in mid. The only thing you have as an argument is thief > mesmer > ranger IF that thief can get there. I’ve seen a thief get 1 shotted by a Lich. Let’s not pretend a Thief can hard counter a necro when the water’s boiling in mid. I’ve seen the complete opposite happen so many times.

A Thief is forced off point all too often. That reason alone is why few people dislike them. Again, if it wasn’t for their great +1 and backcap abilities they wouldn’t be utilized at all. Shadow Refuge is basically their only support option and is a hit or miss during downed states. But on a sync’d team, when it works, it works marvelously.

Those examples are literally every team fight with competent players. Good players dont just sit there and die when they are the focus target and are low on cds. They kite to stay alive and regen cool downs. This is nullified by thief. And that isnt a small issue. With good players that is everything. Otherwise most of the time all your dps will be wasted.

I am talking about only probably the top 100-200 players in the game I guess. Only those players have the skills needed to produce damage and kite at the same time. This skilled gameplay is shut down by thief because you cannot kite or disengage it.

Actually, every team fight the Thief is 40% stealthed, 60% engagement, if that. He’ll try to control any class that needs controlling but he’s not known for his team fighting performances like Guard/Ele/War/Engi are. The Thief will go after the other Thief/Mesmer/Ranger/Necro 70% of the time. If one isn’t present, he’s going to do the best he can to help out in a team fight scenario, but he’s not going to out perform his teammates because the majority of the time, beyond the first engagement, he’ll be off point.

Again, all he has is SR. No one takes a Thief because, “Oh, I want teef because of SR”. Nope, backcapping and +1 abilities are the only reasons why a team takes a thief. Otherwise, take another self-sustaining class that can hold point long enough for another Ele/war/engi to come along and +1. Aka, The Abjured.

glock.6590:

And long stealth duration in conquest is just stupid. If a thief goes stealth near your close point, you basically either have to afk there or move and get decapped 3 seconds later. No matter what you do, the thief wins by making you waste time or kill your teammates outnumbered while you sit there and wonder if you gonna get decapped or not.

Stealth duration need a nerf for sure. Getting 1 sec of stealth for a blast/leap sounds reasonable and 5 sec on shadow refuge would be great too.

It’s playing mind-games with a subliminal class. That portion doesn’t need a nerf or a change.

The Thief isn’t doing any good camping in stealth, especially if your team is winning in mid or far. If not, it’s better for you to +1 that area and just leave point because you’ll be the one helping out your team. Switch out with your teammate Thief and have it be Thief vs Thief on point. Coordinated teams in Tournaments do that all the time.