Guild Wars 2

Let me say something before i start moaning. I am a really big fan of the way how combat works in GW2. I think it is the MMO with the highest potential combat wis.e.

Before i started playing this game i always saw GW2s idea of combat as a form of boxing. Where you attack, defend and counter. Where big attacks mean either a buildup or leaving yourself open for hard hitting counters.

However when you balance damage in a way where even a regular straight punch will instantly knock out anyone it hits, you will make the sport kind of a joke.

I think that is the biggest issue with pvp atm. A lot of the complaints come from getting bursted with minimal effort and without being able to fight back.

For example: Getting hit by thieves from stealth for 12 k (backstab), while being in full “defensive gear” (2840 armor) as engi is imo absurd. I cant imagine what he would hit me for if i was in zerker gear. 1 shot maybe?

The same applies for when im playing on my necro. Most people melt within the first fear if i have proper condis up on him. It doesnt even feel skillbased.

Once damage gets balanced in a way that people can actually react instead of being at 20% instantly….the game will improve big time.

Burst isn’t even a huge problem in the current meta, that was like two metas ago, and being hit by a 12k backstab with 2480 armour is mathematically impossible in a regular PvP situation (not sure if 25 stacks of might, bloodlust, and vuln would do it though).

If you’re talking about WvW, then what’s the problem? WvW is full of consumables, bloodlust, ascended, and all sorts of other crap that make the damage way too over the top, and even then a 12k backstab is incredibly unlikely without some sort of set up

WvW isn’t balanced on small fights, that’s what PvP is for.

Burst is actually underpowered in this meta.

Try some solo arenas. Hotjoins are bursty by nature because why not? No one ever leaves the herd so there’s safety in numbers, leaving people free to see those nice big red crit numbers pop up on their screen like they love.

In team/solo tournaments, people are usually trying to win, so they split up and use a variety of builds. Yes, a well-executed burst combo can potentially kill someone very quickly, but in reality that happens very, very rarely.

And if you’re talking about WvW…well yeah, that’s pretty much how it works there.

Im talking about dmg in general. Seeing people melt during one fear on my necro for example. Or warriors getting one hit in with their hammer and ppl being at 50% allready.

For bad players sure…ill be able to kite 2-3 of them nps. If ppl know how to burst etc. It literally takes 2-3 secs if they are lucky…even with 2840 toughness (not 2480).

Locuz.2651:

Im talking about dmg in general. Seeing people melt during one fear on my necro for example. Or warriors getting one hit in with their hammer and ppl being at 50% allready.

For bad players sure…ill be able to kite 2-3 of them nps. If ppl know how to burst etc. It literally takes 2-3 secs if they are lucky…even with 2840 toughness (not 2480).

But a single stunbreak negates most of your fear damage if used quickly. A single dodge negates a heartseeker. Turning around quickly halves the damage of a backstab.

Trust me, it seems very fast at first but once you get the hang of it fights last a long time (except in hotjoin, as I’ve already mentioned). It’s more like a super lightweight boxing match where people don’t absorb a lot of hits, but spend a lot of time being all fast and hard to hit and stuff.

If we made people able to soak more damage, we’d have to nerf dodging and probably healing and blocking. Besides, it’s much more fun when you have to avoid it.

He’s not talking about burst.

He’s talking about the overall extremely low TTK. It is a huge problem IMO.

It’s not as simple as “nerf everyone’s dmg” either.

Locuz.2651:

For example: Getting hit by thieves from stealth for 12 k (backstab), while being in full “defensive gear” (2840 armor) as engi is imo absurd. I cant imagine what he would hit me for if i was in zerker gear. 1 shot maybe?

What? the max a thief bs can hit me when I run a full glass cannon spec in sPvP is 10k and only if the thief is running a 25 30 x x x build with 10+ stack of might + assassin signet and if critical attack. That thief has 14k hp and has to use at least 2 out of 3 utilities and hope that everything goes well.
When I run a full tankish build with 3k armor, I see 5k BS at best.
Show some proofs of those 12k BS and link your build.

Yep, damage was already too high back in feb/march and following that they just buffed and buffed and buffed…

Kolly.9872:

Locuz.2651:

For example: Getting hit by thieves from stealth for 12 k (backstab), while being in full “defensive gear” (2840 armor) as engi is imo absurd. I cant imagine what he would hit me for if i was in zerker gear. 1 shot maybe?

What? the max a thief bs can hit me when I run a full glass cannon spec in sPvP is 10k and only if the thief is running a 25 30 x x x build with 10+ stack of might + assassin signet and if critical attack. That thief has 14k hp and has to use at least 2 out of 3 utilities and hope that everything goes well.
When I run a full tankish build with 3k armor, I see 5k BS at best.
Show some proofs of those 12k BS and link your build.

I guarantee you that I could backstab you for more than 5k easy lol. I was testing googles build out the other day and I backstabbed a bunker guardian for 9k without fire proc, might stack or vuln.

Knote.2904:

He’s not talking about burst.

He’s talking about the overall extremely low TTK. It is a huge problem IMO.

It’s not as simple as “nerf everyone’s dmg” either.

But the time to kill is not low. It’s quite high in GW2.

The time to kill someone who doesn’t defend is very low, but fortunately we’re not in an old-school trinity stand-and-swing MMO.

NevirSayDie.6235:

But a single stunbreak negates most of your fear damage if used quickly. A single dodge negates a heartseeker. Turning around quickly halves the damage of a backstab.

Trust me, it seems very fast at first but once you get the hang of it fights last a long time (except in hotjoin, as I’ve already mentioned). .

Wow thanks for the tips. Once i get the hang of it right? Once i get the hang of it ill use my psychic powers to predict backstabs coming from stealth. So ill follow these steps:

http://www.wikihow.com/Develop-Psychic-Abilities

And then ill learn to be as aware as you. The one who knows before seeing the thief to turn around.

You sound like that 1200 rated hunter in wow that tried to give my 2600 rated mage tips on how to fight vs hunters.

NevirSayDie.6235:

But the time to kill is not low. It’s quite high in GW2.

Ive seen multiple “top” players drop from 80% HP to 0 in a single stunn or fear. While being dmged by 1 guy ofc.

While this sounds amazing. And you probably shout really hard “pwned” when it happens….it is bad for the game.

LOL @ you complaining about Thieves backstabbing you out of stealth. You just completely invalidated your entire thread, good job.

Incurafy.6329:

LOL @ you complaining about Thieves backstabbing you out of stealth. You just completely invalidated your entire thread, good job.

So if a thief uses backstab as first attack out of stealth. My thread about damage overall being over the top is invalid?

With that post you made all of your posts useless. Please go back to the wow forums with your trolling.

Locuz.2651:

While this sounds amazing. And you probably shout really hard “pwned” when it happens….it is bad for the game.

Sorry, I miscommunicated. I don’t play any of the specs you mention and I generally dislike playing glass cannon builds.

All I meant was that the game contains mechanics that negate or greatly reduce damage (like quickly stunbreaking a fear). If damage were lower and those mechanics remained, it would be impossible to kill people. If damage were lower and those mechanics were removed, this would be WoW. I don’t like either of those options, which is why I tried to explain things that way. I didn’t mean to imply a l2p. Best of luck.

Locuz.2651:

Incurafy.6329:

LOL @ you complaining about Thieves backstabbing you out of stealth. You just completely invalidated your entire thread, good job.

So if a thief uses backstab as first attack out of stealth. My thread about damage overall being over the top is invalid?

With that post you made all of your posts useless. Please go back to the wow forums with your trolling.

So if I say something that you don’t agree with, I play WoW and usually troll on the WoW forums?

/logic

You invalidated your entire thread because you went from making reasonable arguments (with the exception of backstab, and you are still yet to prove that that is possible in PvP without a gimmick build or a set up) to claiming that Thieves backstabbing from stealth is a serious problem, then claiming that you need psychic powers (which don’t exist, btw) to counter it.

In other words, you admitted to knowing too little about PvP to even begin making a solid argument about the TTK being too low.

Locuz, your lack of any valuable information at all makes many people on here get turned off to your post. Instead of insulting others, perhaps provide some information about your problem and we might be able to help you. Otherwise, why are you posting here? Just to vent? If that is the case, then do what you have to do and move on.

What thief build are you having trouble dealing with? Did they have might involved with their spike? Any signets? What is the build you typically run? Is it spvp we are talking here (we all assume so, since this is the spvp forum) or is it wvw?

If you don’t want to provide this type of information, then I can only assume you’re just venting.

Incurafy.6329:

So if I say something that you don’t agree with, I play WoW and usually troll on the WoW forums?

/logic

You invalidated your entire thread because you went from making reasonable arguments (with the exception of backstab, and you are still yet to prove that that is possible in PvP without a gimmick build or a set up) to claiming that Thieves backstabbing from stealth is a serious problem, then claiming that you need psychic powers (which don’t exist, btw) to counter it.

In other words, you admitted to knowing too little about PvP to even begin making a solid argument about the TTK being too low.

This thread is about damage being over the top, especially damage with little to no buildup. I get it that you start crying since the random example i used is a backstab from a thief. But same applies to quite a few other high impact abbilities like signet of spite for example, or the dmg a necro does in shroud.

If a thief backstabs me from stealth …. he basicly lands an attack that removes half of my HP before I can react. There is no counterplay to that…..unless youre a psychic or took a lucky guess and dodged/turned at the right time.

If people come with posts stating “well youll get used to the speed of combat one day” or something like that….ill come with a solution even if its as absurd as being a psychic.

Tell me…how would you avoid the first attack from a thief if you didnt see him coming? Are you like randomly dodging and jump turning for no reason constantly? Just in a case a thief pops up?

Chicago Jack.5647:

Locuz, your lack of any valuable information at all makes many people on here get turned off to your post. Instead of insulting others, perhaps provide some information about your problem and we might be able to help you. Otherwise, why are you posting here? Just to vent? If that is the case, then do what you have to do and move on.

What thief build are you having trouble dealing with? Did they have might involved with their spike? Any signets? What is the build you typically run? Is it spvp we are talking here (we all assume so, since this is the spvp forum) or is it wvw?

If you don’t want to provide this type of information, then I can only assume you’re just venting.

My problem atm is that you didnt read my post. Please do that before you reply. It would help me a lot.

Hint: its not a post about thieves or even a specific pvp mode. Its about dmg being over the top.

Its not my problem either. Its the games problem. Its one of the main reasons why so many of the top players are quitting atm.

Well there are many things in this game that are not well telegraphed, but the best backstab builds are actually very well balanced – at least for spvp. So this made many here raise an eyebrow.

Chicago Jack.5647:

Well there are many things in this game that are not well telegraphed, but the best backstab builds are actually very well balanced. So this made many here raise an eyebrow.

If everyone only had 2 skills, an auto that did 10 dmg, and a long cooldown skill that instantly did 80 dmg with no way to see it coming and was completely instant, while giving everyone only 100 health.

That would be balanced, but it probably wouldn’t be fun. It takes almost no thought in order to 100-0 someone in this game completely upfront and sometimes almost impossible to even really see coming. This isn’t about “balance”.

Chicago Jack.5647:

Knote, I refuse to have a discussion in hyperbole. Give specifics about a certain thief build you’re having trouble with.

I’ve already agreed that there are plenty of things that arn’t well telegraphed that should be. So I can only assume you’re having trouble with some backstab build.

No, I’m not. Again you’re completely missing the point, it’s not a hyperbole because I’m not talking about balance, or specifically backstabs.

I’m about damage/attacks in general, part of it is the telegraphing.

Chicago Jack.5647:

Well there are many things in this game that are not well telegraphed, .

Agreed. If a high impact/damage abbilitie hits as fast and is as hard to counter as a jab you have a problem. Damage across the board is to high, that includes damage i can do on my own classes. But if all of those high impact/damage abbilities needed proper buildup or setup, the game wouldve been a lot better.

Who is many?….there is barely anyone left playing spvp. One of the main reasons is the one this thread is about.

Edit; at least Knote gets what im trying to say -_-

Damage in this game is to high and this are not News. You can see this even in pve where everyone just go berserker gear and faceroll everything with op damage^^.

Anyway – atm i trie to farm my champion title on guardian and very often there are situations when i feel like a glasscanon as full bunker even with protection up in teamfights.
Or guardian vs necros or engi or some rangerbuilds …. or eat some warrior stuns + ele burst in seconds. Often i dont even see whats killing me before im dead and read combatlog because its just to fast and im no progamer with uberfast reflexes im only a human^^

and i guess thats a reason too why noone wanna watch gw2 on twitch – theres tooo much going on in seconds so even the shoucasters dont know whats going on.

and oneshotting/oneshotskills are always bad design in ALL games/genres and this even when you press 20 buttons in a second.
Its very rare when you can use your heal in a fight a second time and THIS is the problem.
With good play it should always be possible to avoid the damage so you can heal again. So attacker have to use skills like CC, interupts, Condis like poison … with brain to can kill the enemy in this small window.

people have to outplay eachother – not to outburst

Stealthasaur.2198:

Kolly.9872:

Locuz.2651:

For example: Getting hit by thieves from stealth for 12 k (backstab), while being in full “defensive gear” (2840 armor) as engi is imo absurd. I cant imagine what he would hit me for if i was in zerker gear. 1 shot maybe?

What? the max a thief bs can hit me when I run a full glass cannon spec in sPvP is 10k and only if the thief is running a 25 30 x x x build with 10+ stack of might + assassin signet and if critical attack. That thief has 14k hp and has to use at least 2 out of 3 utilities and hope that everything goes well.
When I run a full tankish build with 3k armor, I see 5k BS at best.
Show some proofs of those 12k BS and link your build.

I guarantee you that I could backstab you for more than 5k easy lol. I was testing googles build out the other day and I backstabbed a bunker guardian for 9k without fire proc, might stack or vuln.

First 9k is not 12k as stated by the OP, it’s funny how these threads always start with high and unreal numbers and then after a couple of pages end up being nearer to the reality of things.

Second I have yet to see screenshots of those mythical 12k-9k BS in tPvP on a real and expert guardian bunker. Link the bunker guardian spec also. I can guarantee than on my bunker your damage alone is laughable for me.
Two coordinated high damage dpsser instead could be a problem, and it’s right in this way.

Third Google build is a 30 30 x x x build, a build focused for dealing the max single target damage possible for thieves, as I said it require perfect timing and the use of all its utilities just for 1 single hit, leaving the thief “naked” after that one and even then he cannot 1shot anyone from 100 to 0 in 1 second as the OP want us to believe.
Google build needs a coordinated spike damage with another dps, like every other dps build in this game. I have yet to see a build able to down from 100 to 0 in few seconds another build specced bunker in a 1v1 only situation, if the bunker is not afk and know what to do.

Fourth this is just another useless QQ thread

Getting bursted within milliseconds is really something that leaves a sour taste in my mouth, and it does happen way too much in this game. Especially in WvW with the out of control ascended, food buff and bloodlust nightmare, if you don’t react to a single backstab thief within 2 to 4 fast attacks you’ll be dead as an ele, even with 2900 toughness and 18000 hp (which is about as high as you can go on the squishtastic class). It’s unfortunately most magnified on active defense classes like this, as opposed to mammoth hp pool and armor warrior with endure pain triggered passively.

op asked about the moon while everyone who posted here was watching his finger. so nice

I have been telling this since Autumn 2012. The burst in this game (including condition) is way too high. The problem is at least twice as big in WvWvW, as it has all those buffs (Borderland bloodlust + guild buff etc), consumables and better gear (ascended). There you can theoretically have around 16k-20k backstab against that armor. And if you go full bunker, you won’t be able to burst down that thief before he stealths / shadowsteps away. In pvp this is less of a problem as you cannot anycase contest a point while stealthed. But Arenanet has informed they will be adding game modes (team deathmatch and king of the hill, plus guild-vs-guild comes to my mind). These problems need to be addressed before Team Death Match or anything becomes a reality.

I repeat this:
ALL very high damage skills should only inflict damage and do nothing else. Utility skills are for utility, not for damage (a good example is engi rifle #2, which does 2 s immobilize, but no damage). All very high damage skills should be well telegraphed (e.g. warrior’s killshot), slow animation and thus easy to dodge. The very fast, rapid, non-telegraphed attacks should do small damage. Now we have way too many skills which are doing too many things at same time and have unclear / rapid animations.

This would make the game more skill based.

Top tier classes : warr,necro,engi
Bottom tier : thief,ele

Nuff said , killed by a thief = l2p

Thief is bottom? lol!!

ofc direct dmg is way to high , and ofc condi dmg is to high, ofc we have to much CCs in this game , basicly there is to much of everything (power creep)

There’s a big problem with increasing TTK though: map size and number of objectives. Maps are tiny and there are only three real objectives. With the mobility available to roamers it’s already absurdly simple to counter roamer splits on most maps (especially foefire and khylo). If you increase TTK it will become virtually impossible to do anything effective at far point without splitting at LEAST 2 (more like 3) people and the game will degenerate back to the status quo at the start of them game: both teams cap their home point, send 4 mid, and whoever caps mid first wins the game.

I’m not saying that’s necessarily bad (or even that it wouldn’t be an improvement over the clusterkitten spam meta) but it’s definitely something to consider

Forsaker is right about the power creep. Eventually any MMORPG will be hit by power creep. I was just surprised and very sad that this game was so hard with massive power creep, which pretty much got us into this horrible spam spam meta. The game is just 14 months from launch and we have a massive power creep. There has been way too much buffing (even +50% or double there and there), instead of nerfing. A game developer must have a very good self-discipline (or strict senior mentor) to avoid power creep as obviously the player base is always screaming for buffs, rarely for nerfs. Now the only way to fix this is actually lot of smartly targeted nerfs. Players will moan about it, some threatening to quit the game, but in the long run it will be better for the game.

Maybe people misunderstood my post about making very high attack skills telegraphed and slow. I do not want to greatly increase the total time to kill (TTK), but this would really benefit from having attacks more clearly telegraphed (yes, I also mean Asuras). I can sometimes see even the high ranked player dodge/evade spam, dodges which are probably random. Such more or less random hit or miss, isn’t what I would want from a game.

Isn’t it logical that the highest damage skills should be slow and easy to avoid? While very fast attacks should do low damage?

Deniara Devious.3948:

Forsaker is right about the power creep. Eventually any MMORPG will be hit by power creep. I was just surprised and very sad that this game was so hard with massive power creep, which pretty much got us into this horrible spam spam meta. The game is just 14 months from launch and we have a massive power creep. There has been way too much buffing (even +50% or double there and there), instead of nerfing. A game developer must have a very good self-discipline (or strict senior mentor) to avoid power creep as obviously the player base is always screaming for buffs, rarely for nerfs. Now the only way to fix this is actually lot of smartly targeted nerfs. Players will moan about it, some threatening to quit the game, but in the long run it will be better for the game.

Maybe people misunderstood my post about making very high attack skills telegraphed and slow. I do not want to greatly increase the total time to kill (TTK), but this would really benefit from having attacks more clearly telegraphed (yes, I also mean Asuras). I can sometimes see even the high ranked player dodge/evade spam, dodges which are probably random. Such more or less random hit or miss, isn’t what I would want from a game.

Isn’t it logical that the highest damage skills should be slow and easy to avoid? While very fast attacks should do low damage?

The game has always had high spammy dmg, they just made it worse and more obvious.

Except for maybe a few cases where it was better, like when Ele’s were all about the combo’s.

It’s conditions and it’s beyond ridiculous. Look at the top damage dealers on death and it’s conditions that are killing you, for example, 31k of burning damage I took in 21 hits, I have 3 cleanses and STILL couldn’t clear burning, it can just be re-applied and all the time the person applying it is a kittening tank that you can hardly dent.

Again this stupid game is rewarding un-skilled passive play, It NEEDS to change, this ridiculous meta NEEDS to be changed otherwise no one will be left playing.

Locuz.2651:

-snip-

If a thief backstabs me from stealth …. he basicly lands an attack that removes half of my HP before I can react. There is no counterplay to that…..unless youre a psychic or took a lucky guess and dodged/turned at the right time.

Tell me…how would you avoid the first attack from a thief if you didnt see him coming? Are you like randomly dodging and jump turning for no reason constantly? Just in a case a thief pops up?

This is where I take issue with you and your obvious lack of experience. There is no such thing as a Thief that you don’t see coming if you’re actually paying attention to your surroundings. There is plenty of counter-play, the only time that a Thief will be able to burst you unexpectedly will be during a fight with another player where you’re focussed on the fight, and that’s when the Thief who bursts you is doing exactly what they’re supposed to do.

If you’re actually having trouble with Backstab Thieves then you have a lot of learning to do. I would seriously suggest politely posting in the Thief forum with context and details and we’ll be more than happy to help you learn how to counter us.

I’m sorry if you think that I’m getting off topic, but you asked me to explain how I think you’ve invalidated your own thread, and that was my answer.

Loco.4561:

It’s conditions and it’s beyond ridiculous. Look at the top damage dealers on death and it’s conditions that are killing you, for example, 31k of burning damage I took in 21 hits, I have 3 cleanses and STILL couldn’t clear burning, it can just be re-applied and all the time the person applying it is a kittening tank that you can hardly dent.

Again this stupid game is rewarding un-skilled passive play, It NEEDS to change, this ridiculous meta NEEDS to be changed otherwise no one will be left playing.

Burn usually deals between 350-650 damage per second depending on your opponents’ condition damage, so 31k damage would require about 60-70 hits.

Please remember that if you are hit from 20 different skills for 2k damage each, that’s 40k damage—but it shows up in your death log as a bunch of little 2k hits. On the other hand, if you get hit by 20 different skills that cause two seconds of burning (about 20k damage), all of that damage will appear the same on your death bar.

In other words, conditions always appear to do the most damage because their totals are cumulative from all skills. If the death breakdown was damage taken from all power skills vs. damage taken from all condition skills, power would win by a lot most of the time.

Also, conditions are not passive, they are dots. You still have to actively land them. The only difference is that they don’t do much damage up front.

NevirSayDie.6235:

Also, conditions are not passive, they are dots. You still have to actively land them. The only difference is that they don’t do much damage up front.

This is true only in cases where it’s an ability that’s actually applying it, like Ranger Torch.

Knote.2904:

NevirSayDie.6235:

Also, conditions are not passive, they are dots. You still have to actively land them. The only difference is that they don’t do much damage up front.

This is true only in cases where it’s an ability that’s actually applying it, like Ranger Torch.

It’s true that condition damage also has a couple of on-crit traits. Dhuumfire and Incendiary powder are the only significant ones. IP is stronger than Dhuumfire, but they are both essentially on par with a +10% damage trait or a sigil of fire/air (Dhuumfire is significantly weaker, IP is about the same or maybe even a bit stronger). There are also tiny amounts of passive bleeding on crit (usually something like 50-100 extra damage per second, depending on how heavily you invest in traits/sigils/precision if you don’t know any better).

Incurafy.6329:

This is where I take issue with you and your obvious lack of experience. There is no such thing as a Thief that you don’t see coming if you’re actually paying attention to your surroundings. There is plenty of counter-play, the only time that a Thief will be able to burst you unexpectedly will be during a fight with another player where you’re focussed on the fight, and that’s when the Thief who bursts you is doing exactly what they’re supposed to do.

If you’re actually having trouble with Backstab Thieves then you have a lot of learning to do. I would seriously suggest politely posting in the Thief forum with context and details and we’ll be more than happy to help you learn how to counter us.

I’m sorry if you think that I’m getting off topic, but you asked me to explain how I think you’ve invalidated your own thread, and that was my answer.

This isnt a thread about thieves. Youre literally picking a random example and treat it as if its the thing i complain about.

So youre either attempting to troll or unable to read simple posts. Im assuming the first, but ill bite:

I DONT have issues with backstab thieves at all. I win pretty much all my 1v1s vs thieves (and quite a few 1vs2) with little to no issues.

This thread isnt about that though….it is about the way dmg is applied and how bigger damage quite often is applied instantly with relatively little counterplay. This is a cross profession issue and not only related to thieves or warriors or….

Locuz.2651:

Incurafy.6329:

This is where I take issue with you and your obvious lack of experience. There is no such thing as a Thief that you don’t see coming if you’re actually paying attention to your surroundings. There is plenty of counter-play, the only time that a Thief will be able to burst you unexpectedly will be during a fight with another player where you’re focussed on the fight, and that’s when the Thief who bursts you is doing exactly what they’re supposed to do.

If you’re actually having trouble with Backstab Thieves then you have a lot of learning to do. I would seriously suggest politely posting in the Thief forum with context and details and we’ll be more than happy to help you learn how to counter us.

I’m sorry if you think that I’m getting off topic, but you asked me to explain how I think you’ve invalidated your own thread, and that was my answer.

This isnt a thread about thieves. Youre literally picking a random example and treat it as if its the thing i complain about.

So youre either attempting to troll or unable to read simple posts. Im assuming the first, but ill bite:

I DONT have issues with backstab thieves at all. I win pretty much all my 1v1s vs thieves (and quite a few 1vs2) with little to no issues.

This thread isnt about that though….it is about the way dmg is applied and how bigger damage quite often is applied instantly with relatively little counterplay. This is a cross profession issue and not only related to thieves or warriors or….

I’m sorry if this is too hard for you to understand, Locus, but it’s as simple as this…

According to this post:

Locuz.2651:

If a thief backstabs me from stealth …. he basicly lands an attack that removes half of my HP before I can react. There is no counterplay to that…..unless youre a psychic or took a lucky guess and dodged/turned at the right time.

… and this post:

Locuz.2651:

Tell me…how would you avoid the first attack from a thief if you didnt see him coming? Are you like randomly dodging and jump turning for no reason constantly? Just in a case a thief pops up?

… you have no idea how to counter Thieves, one of the biggest examples you gave of a very low TTK. This means that, in my opinion, you completely invalidated your own thread by admitting that you’re too inexperienced to make valid arguments against the TTK in this game.

Furthermore, this part of your post:

Locuz.2651:

I DONT have issues with backstab thieves at all. I win pretty much all my 1v1s vs thieves (and quite a few 1vs2) with little to no issues.

… is a blatant lie that directly contradicts your aforementioned posts. If you didn’t have any issue with Thieves then you wouldn’t believe that a Thief can approach you in stealth and hit you with an attack that can take half of your HP before you can react, you wouldn’t believe that there is “no counter-play” and you certainly wouldn’t believe that you have to be a psychic to avoid the damage or have to jump and doge around randomly for no reason.

In other words, you admitted to having no idea what you’re talking about when it comes to one of your biggest examples, admitted to not being able to counter them, and then lied and contradicted your previous posts.

You are in no position to make valid arguments against the TTK in this game, and that is my conclusion based on the posts that you have made in this thread. I really can’t explain this to you any more clearly, so I sincerely hope that your reading comprehension has improved.

Now, all of that being said, the TTK in this game is too low in some circumstances, but in my opinion that’s an issue with passive traits and instant cast abilities, not the level of damage capable of being dealt.

Think the game’s combat feel is pretty much set by fundamental design choices (like giving everybody dodges and lots of get-out-of-jail free cards) so if you want something more slow paced and strategic you’re SOL.

The logic that since conditions are overpowered that burst clearly is underpowered is worth a real chuckle…way to derail in such a humorous fashion guys!

Incurafy.6329:

You are in no position to make valid arguments against the TTK in this game, and that is my conclusion based on the posts that you have made in this thread. I really can’t explain this to you any more clearly, so I sincerely hope that your reading comprehension has improved.

---

Now, all of that being said, the TTK in this game is too low in some circumstances, but in my opinion that’s an issue with passive traits and instant cast abilities, not the level of damage capable of being dealt.

Ofcourse you are in a great position to be make valid statements about the TTK in this game. You have far more proper pvp experience in this game and in other games etc. Right? Youve been pushing for top 10 spots in several games, played tournaments and lead some of the best premade pvp teams in the world right?

Tell me how to play an engineer vs a thief? And how to be situational aware like you ofc? Maybe you can stream some footage of the master of awareness. doing his thing.

It would be really cool

Btw is this you on thief? http://www.twitch.tv/helsethgw2/c/1935123

That nub helseth lulz if only he was as aware as Incurafy. If he was he probably wouldve been an MLG tournament winner by now. Oo

Locuz.2651:

Ofcourse you are in a great position to be make valid statements about the TTK in this game. You have far more proper pvp experience in this game and in other games etc. Right? Youve been pushing for top 10 spots in several games, played tournaments and lead some of the best premade pvp teams in the world right?

Judging by your lack of experience with dealing with Thieves and your unfounded beliefs in regards to their abilities, I would say that yes, I have more PvP experience than you. I don’t need to be a top 10 PvP player to draw the personal conclusion that you are too inexperienced to make valid arguments against the TTK in this game.

Locuz.2651:

Tell me how to play an engineer vs a thief? And how to be situational aware like you ofc? Maybe you can stream some footage of the master of awareness. doing his thing.

It would be really cool

I don’t play an Engineer so I don’t know what utilities and skills to use against a Thief, that is not my area of knowledge. If you would like some advice on what to do as an Engineer, either post in the Engineer forums with specific questions, or post in the Thief forum with specific questions. As long as you’re not rude about it, you will receive loads of help, as I said earlier.

As for situational awareness, I don’t believe that I need to make a video. When you’re fighting someone, look around every now and then to make sure that they don’t have any reinforcements coming in. This is important whether you’re in a small skirmish in WvW, a zerg fight in WvW, or a small skirmish on a point in PvP. It’s something that you probably already do without even thinking about it. If you’re not doing it, then you’re tunnelling, and that’s bad in ANY PvP game from CS to DOTA2.

Locuz.2651:

Btw is this you on thief? http://www.twitch.tv/helsethgw2/c/1935123

That nub helseth lulz if only he was as aware as Incurafy. If he was he probably wouldve been an MLG tournament winner by now. Oo

That’s an example of someone not using a stunbreak. Helseth is well and truly capable of countering that, so I really don’t know why he didn’t eight months ago when that video was made, which incidentally, is roughly around the time that Jinzu’s Backstab build was incredibly popular.

I also died to that a lot when it came out, but then I learned what to do, and now I counter that crap 24/7 with a single Shadow Step, Shadow Return (from Infiltrator’s Strike which I always have up) or Infiltrator’s Signet. It’s not hard, and any player can do it.

I don’t even know why you’re still trying to argue with me any more. I said that it’s my opinion that you invalidated your entire thread with those posts and now you’re trying to argue… what, exactly? That my opinion is wrong? I really don’t get it, lol.

Incurafy.6329:

Judging by your lack of experience with dealing with Thieves and your unfounded beliefs in regards to their abilities, I would say that yes, I have more PvP experience than you. I don’t need to be a top 10 PvP player to draw the personal conclusion that you are too inexperienced to make valid arguments against the TTK in this game.

The story is about the first hit and how you cant avoid that if he sneaks up to you with stealth. Even the best player in the world cant avoid that if he doesnt know that that player is inc. Stop being stupid.

It has nothing to do with experience.

Incurafy.6329:

As for situational awareness, I don’t believe that I need to make a video. When you’re fighting someone, look around every now and then to make sure that they don’t have any reinforcements coming in. This is important whether you’re in a small skirmish in WvW, a zerg fight in WvW, or a small skirmish on a point in PvP. It’s something that you probably already do without even thinking about it. If you’re not doing it, then you’re tunnelling, and that’s bad in ANY PvP game from CS to DOTA2.

I played pvp games for like 15 years mostly at a high level. I never had any issues to get high rated and i never had any issues with my awareness. Just to name a random example: i have 7+ classes at 2200-2600 in wow including about 2 million honour kills spread across my characters. I played aom before that in the top 10 worldwide and played in the GGL for cash to name another example.

I doubt you have the same experience, but please enlighten me.

This was a thread about instant damage that has little counterplay. It was about single examples of attacks that hit hard OR have a high impact and have relatively little counterplay to it.

Almost every class has abbilities like this. So if i mentioned those….does that mean that i struggle with everything?

Locuz.2651:

Incurafy.6329:

Judging by your lack of experience with dealing with Thieves and your unfounded beliefs in regards to their abilities, I would say that yes, I have more PvP experience than you. I don’t need to be a top 10 PvP player to draw the personal conclusion that you are too inexperienced to make valid arguments against the TTK in this game.

The story is about the first hit and how you cant avoid that if he sneaks up to you with stealth. Even the best player in the world cant avoid that if he doesnt know that that player is inc. Stop being stupid.

It has nothing to do with experience.

Incurafy.6329:

As for situational awareness, I don’t believe that I need to make a video. When you’re fighting someone, look around every now and then to make sure that they don’t have any reinforcements coming in. This is important whether you’re in a small skirmish in WvW, a zerg fight in WvW, or a small skirmish on a point in PvP. It’s something that you probably already do without even thinking about it. If you’re not doing it, then you’re tunnelling, and that’s bad in ANY PvP game from CS to DOTA2.

I played pvp games for like 15 years mostly at a high level. I never had any issues to get high rated and i never had any issues with my awareness. Just to name a random example: i have 7+ classes at 2200-2600 in wow including about 2 million honour kills spread across my characters. I played aom before that in the top 10 worldwide and played in the GGL for cash to name another example.

I doubt you have the same experience, but please enlighten me.

I actually do have similar experience with other games, but it’s irrelevant so I’ll spare you the details.

As I expected then, you do know what situational awareness is. What you seem to refuse to acknowledge is that a Thief can’t approach you in stealth, it doesn’t work like that.

Again though I don’t even know why you’re arguing wiith me at this point. I have already explained to you several times why I drew the personal conclusion that you invalidated your own thread, but apparently what I say doesn’t really matter, so what the hell is the problem?

the balance between bunkering/damage is fine, at the moment we don´t have endless fights and there are no viable 5x burst teams in conquest game mode. You simply need both to rotate them and do different tasks. Glass canons could never hold a point like a bunker guardian.