Guild Wars 2

Dear thieves

It’s time to put down your torches and banners as you cry out for buffs and hear me. The meta is built around your specific class choice. It’s not your fault, but thief is so incredible at putting away so many other builds that the current meta has been designed around you..

To put that in perspective, the only meta build which fears you most is a shoutbow warrior. Other than that your job is to kill other thieves- take points and assist in ongoing fights.

Rest assured, if anyone was to try a theory crafted or outdated build of the historical meta you would most likely kitten their face. But as it stands everyone is building to last and slowly grind down opponents. If we tried anything different then teams of even more thieves would emerge

that is all.

This is all true…. as long as you are one of the top 10 thieves in the game. Otherwise, thief is the class that causes more losses to a team than any other.

Yes.
We’ve totally been trolling you guys with saying we’re the weak and saying how we need buffs and roll diversity and that you should stop nerfing us.
As a matter of fact we were doing so to keep people away from playing our beloved class. But now that more and more people are catching on how amazing the thief is, I guess we can tell you the truth….
We are OP, we’re amazing. The whole game revolves around us and only us.
So. If you want to be amazing like us, roll a thief.

TEEF MASTER RACE!!!!!

Zero Day.2594:

Yes.
We’ve totally been trolling you guys with saying we’re the weak and saying how we need buffs and roll diversity and that you should stop nerfing us.
As a matter of fact we were doing so to keep people away from playing our beloved class. But now that more and more people are catching on how amazing the thief is, I guess we can tell you the truth….
We are OP, we’re amazing. The whole game revolves around us and only us.
So. If you want to be amazing like us, roll a thief.

TEEF MASTER RACE!!!!!

The profession is extremely powerful as well as reliable but tends to fall short in a meta in which everyone is relatively tanky. Ironically the shoutbow warrior emerged to counter the meta which countered theives. Thus, shoutbow is weak against thieves.

Its that one profession no one can ignore, i mean lets face it, a good theif is invulnerable to normal DPS 90% of the time between dodging, invisibilty, and evading. The meta HAD to adapt- Most dps builds are generally slower- but theives acomplish incredible stopping power and interruption while also being extremely fast- and hard to kill!

The only reason you die so much now is due to how the current builds have been designed to survive your initiate and beat you. Even still- you are able to win regardless in some cases.

Invoker.5462:

Zero Day.2594:

Yes.
We’ve totally been trolling you guys with saying we’re the weak and saying how we need buffs and roll diversity and that you should stop nerfing us.
As a matter of fact we were doing so to keep people away from playing our beloved class. But now that more and more people are catching on how amazing the thief is, I guess we can tell you the truth….
We are OP, we’re amazing. The whole game revolves around us and only us.
So. If you want to be amazing like us, roll a thief.

TEEF MASTER RACE!!!!!

The profession is extremely powerful as well as reliable but tends to fall short in a meta in which everyone is relatively tanky. Ironically the shoutbow warrior emerged to counter the meta which countered theives. Thus, shoutbow is weak against thieves.

Its that one profession no one can ignore, i mean lets face it, a good theif is invulnerable to normal DPS 90% of the time between dodging, invisibilty, and evading. The meta HAD to adapt- Most dps builds are generally slower- but theives acomplish incredible stopping power and interruption while also being extremely fast- and hard to kill!

The only reason you die so much now is due to how the current builds have been designed to survive your initiate and beat you. Even still- you are able to win regardless in some cases.

Exactly. Totally agree. More people should be let in on this, so they can reap the glory.

woah,

are people implying Thieves are dying breed in sPvP? C’mon, as a Mesmer and Ranger player, that cant be more further from the truth. And suggesting Thieves need some buffs in order to compete with current “meta” is just delusional, the Anet might as well remove Mesmers, Rangers and Necros from sPvP. Those three are the classes that need “adjustment” for sPvP not thieves.

Don’t forget to abuse SB#5, may the thief’s success be with y’all we got plenty more in stock.

Thought serious until.

Invoker.5462:

the only meta build which fears you most is a shoutbow warrior

LOL.

No, but seriously. LOL.

honestly the only reason thief is in the state it is is because of its mobility, whats the point of having another zerker class if i cant move around quickly enough, i can guarantee my zerker engineer will do more damage and have a bigger impact on a fight then a thief but then again im not at far point yet decapping it and by the time i got there i didn’t get that burst on the enemy in mid and rotated out to help home or what ever else that needs doing.

What? What game are you playing that leads you to believe that a thief hard counters a shoutbow celestial warrior? Is this real life right now?

ukuni.8745:

honestly the only reason thief is in the state it is is because of its mobility, whats the point of having another zerker class if i cant move around quickly enough, i can guarantee my zerker engineer will do more damage and have a bigger impact on a fight then a thief but then again im not at far point yet decapping it and by the time i got there i didn’t get that burst on the enemy in mid and rotated out to help home or what ever else that needs doing.

Also the engi zerk dies about 1000 times easier.

Every zerker dies easier compared to a thief.

Stealth in this game is plain broken, with few counters other than guessing and flailing at thing air since blocks and blinds don’t reveal the thief.

And even if the thief fails the burst he can reset at will thanks to sword port/shadowstep/shadow refuge or hell just the good old BP>HS.

What did you think would happen if you gave a class the highest burst, the highest mobility, and plenty of resets plus constant access to invisibility?

They went and nerfed ranger endurance regen trait from 50% down to 25% yet thieves got to keep feline grace, which was a way better version since feline graces STACKS with vigor, while the ranger trait did not (endurance refund stacks with vigor, endurance regen caps at 100% with vigor up).

But apparently a thief with the equivalent of a serpent strike that can be chained several times and nukes people for way more damage on top of all the evades/ports/blinds a thief can have is totally fine.

This is kind-of true. Because thief exists, most classes can’t really roll bursty high-risk, high-reward builds. This is because thief has
- The best mobility, bar none
- Survival mechanics that in no-way depend on stats (evades, stealth, teleports)
- No CDs on stealth, giving them the ability to engage at-will

As such, a thief basically hard-counters or outperforms any other burst build (besides guardian). Mesmer has kind-of a niche due to portal, but is still not taken as often.

The classes that have no chance to compete with thief for a dps role, then need to compete for the role of support/point-holder. In order to survive 1v1’s with thief, this means high sustain and average pressure, leading to the cele builds that became popular. These are builds that can survive and consistently recover from opening bursts against thief and pose enough threat that the thief can’t just stick around and 1v1.

If thief had cooldowns (so it didn’t have the final say in when a fight starts/ends via stealth engages or ports ignoring LOS), had to make more sacrifices for its mobility (like mesmer does with portal), or was given less evasion, in exchange for more survivability from utilities, traits, and actual stats, you would see FAR more build diversity, and more zerkers.

When you actually start asking “why does X class run Y?…why why why…” you eventually will come to understand that this meta, and most metas have been defined, or heavily influenced, by thieves.

Fixing the z-axis teleport the “correct” way which is to get rid of it all together would’ve made the meta less enforced.

I do agree that Thief is extremely required on good comps, but so are D/D Eles. And what do they have in common? Ridiculous map control. The z-axis map control is unnecessary because Thief already has decent horizontal range and great kill/gank potential and D/D Ele already has the most face-roll 1v1 in the game and point holding potential plus horizontal range.

TL;DR If certain classes were a little more punishable, the meta wouldn’t be so enforced.

BlackTruth, I agree with MOST of what you said. However, I wanted to addresss 1 point.

BlackTruth.6813:

I do agree that Thief is extremely required on good comps, but so are D/D Eles.

That is the one thing I will disagree with you on. As evidence, I point only to oRNG and the Abjured. They have gone against the meta, running high-burst teams, against whom d/d eles are honestly useless. Yes, a d/d ele is probably the best 1v1 point-holder in the game. However, against comps that bring lots of damage and can set up bursts/focus fire, the d/d ele is a sitting duck. In those situations, invulnerabilities, blocks, and burst heals are necessary to have any chance holding a point. Burst comps work by just snowballing so every fight is 2v2 or greater, with at least 2 high-damage players in the game (able to instantly spike down a bruiser like d/d ele with little they can do about it).

D/D ele does, however, shine when everyone is running bruisers that can’t truly burst. It’s great against sustained damage, and poor against burst.

However, regardless of what the other team is running, every high-end team needs a thief or else they are at a significant disadvantage due to mobility alone.

Quadox.7834:

ukuni.8745:

honestly the only reason thief is in the state it is is because of its mobility, whats the point of having another zerker class if i cant move around quickly enough, i can guarantee my zerker engineer will do more damage and have a bigger impact on a fight then a thief but then again im not at far point yet decapping it and by the time i got there i didn’t get that burst on the enemy in mid and rotated out to help home or what ever else that needs doing.

Also the engi zerk dies about 1000 times easier.

when an enemy team focuses an engineer he cant teleport out of the fight, once again mobility, other then that its pritty effective at surviving assuming you know what your doing.

Jep i am playing a zerker engie my self , and its pretty nice to kill all those thieves ^^.

Yep, the meta is centered around Thieves…

That is why most optimal builds are like AoE happy machines that makes spectating for a new player seems as if they are watching Rainbow-Simulator 2…

… Or was the meta buid around, you know, conquest? Might sound silly, I know, but there might be a possibility no?

GoogleBrandon.5073:

Yep, the meta is centered around Thieves…

That is why most optimal builds are like AoE happy machines that makes spectating for a new player seems as if they are watching Rainbow-Simulator 2…

… Or was the meta buid around, you know, conquest? Might sound silly, I know, but there might be a possibility no?

Well, AoE is the best counter to stealth…

Obviously Conquest is still the ultimate goal, but there are quite a few builds that perform well in Conquest if an enemy thief is absent. None of these builds are meta. To say the Thief hasn’t shaped the meta is not accurate. Most professions have shaped the current meta (still unsure about Ranger, though).

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

GoogleBrandon.5073:

Yep, the meta is centered around Thieves…

That is why most optimal builds are like AoE happy machines that makes spectating for a new player seems as if they are watching Rainbow-Simulator 2…

… Or was the meta buid around, you know, conquest? Might sound silly, I know, but there might be a possibility no?

Well, AoE is the best counter to stealth…

Obviously Conquest is still the ultimate goal, but there are quite a few builds that perform well in Conquest if an enemy thief is absent. None of these builds are meta. To say the Thief hasn’t shaped the meta is not accurate. Most professions have shaped the current meta (still unsure about Ranger, though).

Yes AOE WOULD work if we weren’t in open areas. “Oh look a read danger zone, Imma just flip over it or walk around it.”

Actually the AoE that is used is used because it is superior to the other options for that class at the moment. Ele is always AoE with the exception of scepter which isn’t used because thief, mesmer and even ranger can offer more in the same role. Warrior is always AoE because longbow burst is the most reliable way to use cleansing ire, and secondly the burning damage just happens to be most effective in a meta where they have both condition damage and direct damage oriented stats. Necros run staff for the marks and life force generation, not because those marks are AoE; scepter, axe and dagger are not AoE, and yet necros are more in the meta than they have been in a while. Mesmers have never had much AoE, and have been very popular until recently, despite still being effective as consistently shown by some of the top competitive teams. Rangers have always had AoE, but only started to be used in the competitive scene after their last rebalance. If an engineer isn’t running grenades or bomb kit, they aren’t offering as much as they could; both sets happen to have AoE; toolkit and pistol are mostly single target. Thieves themselves run shortbow for no single reason; it’s as much for the mobility as it is the blast finisher, evade, AoE poison, and AoE damage. In fact, S/D can evade around AoE, while D/P is more vulnerable to it; in some cases we see them sitting in stealth for quite a while looking for an opening. Yet, D/P is more popular in the competitive scene than S/D at the moment. Nice try though.

Conquest is the ultimate culprit beyond any meta, no matter what people say or do.
In Conquest you must have builds that thrive on the point and others than benefit from staying out of it.

All professions can have both builds, but only one of them will be optimal

Dear poor old Gw2 thief……shutup!

Vieux P.1238:

Dear poor old Gw2 thief……shutup!

+1000

I actually feel bad for thieves (and mesmers and necros) cause this is practically the only way a thief can be played. Because of how the class is designed and designed so differently from the other 7 professions it’s only niche is burst damage. Whether it’s condi burst or power burst damage. Plus, if you stripped away a thief’s active defense abilities (blind, stealh, evade, and teleport) they are basically a walking dummy.
Both thieves and mesmers are examples of kitten poor design because their roles in PvP are near identical but thief outshines the mesmer (and other classes) due to it’s completely different mechanics (initiative, no CDs, superior active defense).

To be fair, Condition thieves are pretty strong attrition builds. They’re just no good in Conquest due to stealth giving up the capture point.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

To be fair, Condition thieves are pretty strong attrition builds. They’re just no good in Conquest due to stealth giving up the capture point.

I wouldn’t say that they suck because they give up cap points. They suck because there’s nothing they can do that a necro can’t do better.

I do think that Thief is overpowered in the sense that it kills too many specs. But at the same time I don’t think there’s a way to nerf the class without killing it vs the current meta. The only way to fix it would be a complete rework.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

GoogleBrandon.5073:

Yep, the meta is centered around Thieves…

That is why most optimal builds are like AoE happy machines that makes spectating for a new player seems as if they are watching Rainbow-Simulator 2…

… Or was the meta buid around, you know, conquest? Might sound silly, I know, but there might be a possibility no?

Well, AoE is the best counter to stealth…

Obviously Conquest is still the ultimate goal, but there are quite a few builds that perform well in Conquest if an enemy thief is absent. None of these builds are meta. To say the Thief hasn’t shaped the meta is not accurate. Most professions have shaped the current meta (still unsure about Ranger, though).

Well yea, but Stealth is not exlusive to Thieves :P

Also, every class has influenced every class in a way… Heavy CC means you have to get a stunbreak, conditions (and immobilize specifically) “forces” people to run condi removal etc. etc.
However, the fact that you see more Shoutbows than say a Zerker GS Warrior is not just due to a Thief… Take my level of play, where a Thief is way less key to winning the games – even in these you do not see many Zerker Warriors… This is because the gamemode itself favours certain builds, of which the most common ones are capable of sitting on a point for a said duration of time, can do proper AoE damage and support your teammates to an extend…
To say that Thieves form the meta to an extend is… meh, imho not worth the hassle… I mean, I love playing “Exotic” builds from time to time, but if they underpeform within the current meta of conquest, it is not worth taking – which is more than just seeing a Thief…

Now, if we were to strictly speak about roles, then you start to get onto another level of play – and on that I can agree that Thieves are and will always be unparralleled in what they do, because their role to +1 fights quickly will always be prevalent unless they remove their mobility…

Elitist.8701:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

To be fair, Condition thieves are pretty strong attrition builds. They’re just no good in Conquest due to stealth giving up the capture point.

I wouldn’t say that they suck because they give up cap points. They suck because there’s nothing they can do that a necro can’t do better.

I do think that Thief is overpowered in the sense that it kills too many specs. But at the same time I don’t think there’s a way to nerf the class without killing it vs the current meta. The only way to fix it would be a complete rework.

This is pretty much it. The thief is designed in a way that if you significantly nerf either it’s offensive potential or active defenses it would kill the class not only in pvp but in every aspect of the game.
It sucks cause you can’t do much to the thief without further pigeon-holing it into it’s pvp role or killing it entirely.

Zero Day.2594:

Yes.
We’ve totally been trolling you guys with saying we’re the weak and saying how we need buffs and roll diversity and that you should stop nerfing us.
As a matter of fact we were doing so to keep people away from playing our beloved class. But now that more and more people are catching on how amazing the thief is, I guess we can tell you the truth….
We are OP, we’re amazing. The whole game revolves around us and only us.
So. If you want to be amazing like us, roll a thief.

TEEF MASTER RACE!!!!!

Clever! Now they’ll all roll thief and realize what they were complaining about. I like it!

LOL this is fairly true actually, though I think it mostly has to do with the ability to open the engagement from a strong position. Just like White gets the first move in Chess and Black has to play defense until they can capitalize on a mistake and change the tempo and thus taking control of the initiative in the fight, other classes ostensibly have to be able to deal with a Thief’s opening thrust and eventually counter if they want to be viable in PvP. The Thief’s mobility (engage and disengage safely) and strong openers (Stealth – Backstab, LoS – Inf Strike) merely enable this role.

Obviously an army of Thieves won’t net you much, but in a team setting they certainly bring the initiative to their respective team. Hence the importance on the Thief vs Thief duel that takes place when there’s one on both teams in a match.

+1 Interesting topic

To fix thieves, the first step is bringing back weapon skill recharges to the table.

I’m not saying giving them 5s-50s second recharges. That’ll be way too much. But rather 0.25-5s ones, and not on all skills.

By making recharges a possibility, additional adjustements can be done to them. For example, a skill that can stun very frequently can be slowed down a bit with a mere 3s recharge. Or a skill that is often accidentally spammed can get a 0.25s recharge to prevent getting it queued so easily (e.g.: Shortbow 3).
Skills less used could get improved effects in exchange for up to 5s recharges; and skills too used can get a recharge instead losing power (or even along an increase in power), so they are still powerful and effective, but they must be used more strategically.

For example, the sword sneak attack could be a 3s stun instead a 2s daze and deal a bit more damage, but get a 10s recharge, so it must be used wisely when it seems the target has run out of stun breakers and stability.

Not recharges used as a tool to nerf, but as a tool to adjust.

Thief is not a problem itself. Thief is a “problem” within Conquest. So Conquest is the real problem.

Zero Day.2594:

TEEF MASTER RACE!!!!!

95% of my time played in Guild Wars 2 has been on a thief. First char created, leveled to 80 and the one I have 93% of games played in sPvP with.

So I can say I have joined the Teef Master Race since the very beginning!!!!

MithranArkanere.8957:

To fix thieves, the first step is bringing back weapon skill recharges to the table.

Nah. It negates class unique mechanic.
MB make SB 5th only horizontal port? Idk, too big nerf too.

Mak.2657:

MithranArkanere.8957:

To fix thieves, the first step is bringing back weapon skill recharges to the table.

Nah. It negates class unique mechanic.
MB make SB 5th only horizontal port? Idk, too big nerf too.

Mesmers class mechanic is to confuse players, Anet nerf its confusion output and make sure in your down state you get a big red arrow above your head to “confuse” the other players to not stomp you. Fair?

How about have Thieves leave a blood trail when you damage them and they go into stealth, that would be nice.

MightyMicah.7451:

Zero Day.2594:

Yes.
We’ve totally been trolling you guys with saying we’re the weak and saying how we need buffs and roll diversity and that you should stop nerfing us.
As a matter of fact we were doing so to keep people away from playing our beloved class. But now that more and more people are catching on how amazing the thief is, I guess we can tell you the truth….
We are OP, we’re amazing. The whole game revolves around us and only us.
So. If you want to be amazing like us, roll a thief.

TEEF MASTER RACE!!!!!

Clever! Now they’ll all roll thief and realize what they were complaining about. I like it!

Sure. Let’s go with just that.

GoogleBrandon.5073:

Yep, the meta is centered around Thieves…

That is why most optimal builds are like AoE happy machines that makes spectating for a new player seems as if they are watching Rainbow-Simulator 2…

… Or was the meta buid around, you know, conquest? Might sound silly, I know, but there might be a possibility no?

Yeah because aoe spam isn’t the only way to hit stealthed targets or pressure a thief from stealth stomping targets.

And if we’re gonna go for aoe, why aren’t frostbow or staff eles swarming the format, because no class comes even close to the aoe damage of those two.

I don’t want to hear about other classes having stealth. Mesmer has 3 seconds top of stealth, that doesn’t stack, and requires utilities of 32 and 90 second cooldowns respectively, or running a torch that has the worst, most worthless phantasm out of all weapons and The Prestige is a whopping 30 sec cd.

Don’t you even dare compare mesmer stealth to thief stealth, it’s not like mesmers get an invisible phantasm that crits people for 6k from stealth and has no telegraph and can be cast repeatedly instead of having the usual 20 sec cd.

Thief is the only class who gets the ability to crit for 5-6k+ from stealth.

Zenith.7301:

GoogleBrandon.5073:

Yep, the meta is centered around Thieves…

That is why most optimal builds are like AoE happy machines that makes spectating for a new player seems as if they are watching Rainbow-Simulator 2…

… Or was the meta buid around, you know, conquest? Might sound silly, I know, but there might be a possibility no?

Yeah because aoe spam isn’t the only way to hit stealthed targets or pressure a thief from stealth stomping targets.

And if we’re gonna go for aoe, why aren’t frostbow or staff eles swarming the format, because no class comes even close to the aoe damage of those two.

Because a normal D/D Ele suffices, plus it covers more than one role?

Just my uneducated guess… What do I know anyway

Edit

Apparently you misinterpret my AoE spam as AoE spike damage – this is not the same… but hey, whatever man…

I would love to see Anet doing a day without Thieves and see how much PvP changes… I will bet you that most teams will still be 3 Celes and 2 Bananas…

GoogleBrandon.5073:

Zenith.7301:

GoogleBrandon.5073:

Yep, the meta is centered around Thieves…

That is why most optimal builds are like AoE happy machines that makes spectating for a new player seems as if they are watching Rainbow-Simulator 2…

… Or was the meta buid around, you know, conquest? Might sound silly, I know, but there might be a possibility no?

Yeah because aoe spam isn’t the only way to hit stealthed targets or pressure a thief from stealth stomping targets.

And if we’re gonna go for aoe, why aren’t frostbow or staff eles swarming the format, because no class comes even close to the aoe damage of those two.

Because a normal D/D Ele suffices, plus it covers more than one role?

Just my uneducated guess… What do I know anyway

Edit

Apparently you misinterpret my AoE spam as AoE spike damage – this is not the same… but hey, whatever man…

I would love to see Anet doing a day without Thieves and see how much PvP changes… I will bet you that most teams will still be 3 Celes and 2 Bananas…

But like you pointed out, it’s silly that meta builds revolve around game modes and mechanics within the game mode. Meta builds clearly revolve around 1 and only 1 class, and that is the thief!

To further extend this, it’s possible that when they were developing the game modes, they made sure that they were building around one class, then once the game was in place people would have to create builds that build around that same one class and the mode that also builds around that one class – and that one class being the thief.

This is how game design works in practice, just picking the thief/rogue/assassin/ninja class and making things revolve around it. Also how they balance things.

Zenith.7301:

Thief is the only class who gets the ability to crit for 5-6k+ from stealth.

1) No. Rangers have a trait that enables them to regain opening strike when entering stealth, which in such a build is a guaranteed crit. Combined or not, with moment of clarity, greatsword can hit that high.
2) No. Anyone can crit 5-6k if built right, and any class can enter stealth. 4/8 can enter it themselves, and the other 4 can be given it from 3 of the other 4. What you mean is, thief is the only class that has a skill that hits that high that can only be used from/is restricted to stealth.
3) Anyone can play the X is the only class who can Y game. I’ll show you: Mesmer is the only class who gets the ability to (reliably) deal 5-6k+ damage from stealth, without getting revealed.

Edit: For clarification on point 3, even though it was an example - by reliably I don’t mean "they always will." I mean as opposed to rangers who theoretically can following the same concept - the AI deals the damage while you’re in stealth - but it is less reliable because it’s easier to avoid a pet than a phantasmal berserker. E.g. if you’re out of dodges, the berserker will hit, while the pet can be kited just by moving away.

Zenith.7301:

Every zerker dies easier compared to a thief.

Stealth in this game is plain broken, with few counters other than guessing and flailing at thing air since blocks and blinds don’t reveal the thief.

And even if the thief fails the burst he can reset at will thanks to sword port/shadowstep/shadow refuge or hell just the good old BP>HS.

What did you think would happen if you gave a class the highest burst, the highest mobility, and plenty of resets plus constant access to invisibility?

They went and nerfed ranger endurance regen trait from 50% down to 25% yet thieves got to keep feline grace, which was a way better version since feline graces STACKS with vigor, while the ranger trait did not (endurance refund stacks with vigor, endurance regen caps at 100% with vigor up).

But apparently a thief with the equivalent of a serpent strike that can be chained several times and nukes people for way more damage on top of all the evades/ports/blinds a thief can have is totally fine.

There definitely isn’t enough counterplay to stealth. Its also that there isn’t enough counterplay to certain abilities that shadowstep because they happen instantly wihtout any animation so you can’t dodge(besides the pistol shadow step). Like steal.

rainisword.7860:

There definitely isn’t enough counterplay to stealth.

AoE, cleaves, push backs, knock downs, immobilise, stuns, counter stealth, mobility, invulnerability, block. Plenty of counter play. I suppose most people that have the mindset for playing such deceptive, tricky, out-witting games are people who enjoy playing thief more than the other classes. So many players, seeing the enemy player enter stealth, will just stand there and wait to be hit, then complain. I mean, at least bloody move. Movement in itself is a counter – the weakest, granted – but they have to follow you, and that takes the same time it took you to cover that distance! It buys time, maybe even the full duration of the stealth causing it to wear off before they hit you, and it may even force them to use a resource(s) to close the gap. Counting is another underrated counter… Count the seconds, then enter stealth yourself or use an invulnerability skill or a block. Aegis too at least let’s you know the stealthed player is nearby.

rainisword.7860:

There definitely isn’t enough counterplay to stealth. Its also that there isn’t enough counterplay to certain abilities that shadowstep because they happen instantly wihtout any animation so you can’t dodge(besides the pistol shadow step). Like steal.

You mean like…
- Lightning strike (trait)
- Lightning strike (scepter)
- Blinding flash
- Hurl
- Arcane wave
- Arcane blast
- Lightning flash
- Spinal shivers
- Blink
- Phase retreat
- Smite condition
- Judge’s intervention
- Overcharged shot
- Numerous invulnerability skills like endure pain, defy pain, signet of stone (not counting mist form or elixir s because they have a tradeoff), and blocks, which can come out instantly to counter burst.
- And yes shadow step, and infiltrator’s signet. Leave steal alone, it’s a profession skill. Virtues, enter death shroud, attunement swap and alright not exactly the profession skill but practically: equip/unqeuip kit, have no cast time.

Thief has them… So does every other class. Ele and guard have the most.

Impact, why do you bother?

Zero Day.2594:

Impact, why do you bother?

I don’t know! Maybe because I think it helps?

Impact.2780:

Zenith.7301:

Thief is the only class who gets the ability to crit for 5-6k+ from stealth.

1) No. Rangers have a trait that enables them to regain opening strike when entering stealth, which in such a build is a guaranteed crit. Combined or not, with moment of clarity, greatsword can hit that high.
2) No. Anyone can crit 5-6k if built right, and any class can enter stealth. 4/8 can enter it themselves, and the other 4 can be given it from 3 of the other 4. What you mean is, thief is the only class that has a skill that hits that high that can only be used from/is restricted to stealth.
3) Anyone can play the X is the only class who can Y game. I’ll show you: Mesmer is the only class who gets the ability to (reliably) deal 5-6k+ damage from stealth, without getting revealed.

Edit: For clarification on point 3, even though it was an example – by reliably I don’t mean “they always will.” I mean as opposed to rangers who theoretically can following the same concept – the AI deals the damage while you’re in stealth – but it is less reliable because it’s easier to avoid a pet than a phantasmal berserker. E.g. if you’re out of dodges, the berserker will hit, while the pet can be kited just by moving away.

LOL. A Maul is one of the most obvious telegraphs ever, and opening strike on stealth is a GRANDMASTER trait which most people won’t even take because predator’s onslaught is significantly better.

I can tell by that list you just made you’re not the most unbiased source. Your types deserv e to be banned from playing thief for a while and be forced to play any other berk class against teams with berk thieves.

Clearly thieves are just fine, that’s why they’re easily replaced in any tournament and top teams by other berserker classes.

Personally having played many classes in pvp, not being good at most of them but i have played each enough to be an average player, i decided to stick to thief, simply because i think its one of the tougher classes to play. The only class that is harder imo is mesmer, and maybe some specific builds for classes such as s/f ele, altho i dont have enough knowledge on that.

Thief is all about patience, positioning, and knowing what your enemy is going to do. One wrong move and you die, especially in team fights. I dont see why people complain about thieves. Its really not an easy class to play, and the ones who are good only survive because they know what you are going to do. I really think thief should not be nerfed, and if buffed only a little bit because it has a nice balance of risk and reward, as well as taking a fair amount of skill to play. It just doesnt have a good place in solo pvp since teams dont understand the role of thief and the limitations.

If you have a hard time against a thief, 1. have better reactions so when they do try to burst you when you dont expect them you can move away, 2. accept that sometimes you cant win against a thief especially if you are zerk and they gank you, 3. Just take the time to learn how thieves play, and you will have an easy time countering them with any class.

Edit:
to the ranger person qqing above, i think they are a ranger, on thief ive faced some sword rangers, i forget what build but no bow, and they knew exactly how to fight thieves. They were able to dodge most of my bursts and it was one of the only hard fights against a ranger i had, because just like my build their build required some understanding to pull of properly in 1v1.

I mean,

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Maul_%28ranger_greatsword_skill%29

434, 1.5 coefficient

vs.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Backstab

806, 2.4 coefficient

This guy is so full of crap saying Maul can hit that high.

It’s so comically misinformed.

Thief burst isn’t the real issue. Guard could do the same with the focus pre-cast, face-tank/cleave a point better and arguably finish a downed person better. Burst is something you can’t take away from Thief really. But z-axis you can cause Thief is high skill cap even without it.

Zenith.7301:

LOL. A Maul is one of the most obvious telegraphs ever, and opening strike on stealth is a GRANDMASTER trait which most people won’t even take because predator’s onslaught is significantly better.

I can tell by that list you just made you’re not the most unbiased source. Your types deserv e to be banned from playing thief for a while and be forced to play any other berk class against teams with berk thieves.

Clearly thieves are just fine, that’s why they’re easily replaced in any tournament and top teams by other berserker classes.

Now you’ve missed your own point. From stealth right? I don’t think maul can be seen when invisible on account of it being… you know. Invisible.

As for your direct attack; I’m not going to get into what I do and don’t play, because this thread isn’t about me. I’d appreciate if you didn’t try bait responses that are specific to an individual’s playing habits irrespective of the original topic.

BlackTruth.6813:

Thief burst isn’t the real issue. Guard could do the same with the focus pre-cast, face-tank/cleave a point better and arguably finish a downed person better. Burst is something you can’t take away from Thief really. But z-axis you can cause Thief is high skill cap even without it.

Focus pre-cast is also a 45 sec cd.