Guild Wars 2

Zenith.7301:

BlackTruth.6813:

Thief burst isn’t the real issue. Guard could do the same with the focus pre-cast, face-tank/cleave a point better and arguably finish a downed person better. Burst is something you can’t take away from Thief really. But z-axis you can cause Thief is high skill cap even without it.

Focus pre-cast is also a 45 sec cd.

thanks, ill add that to my list of non sequiturs

champ.7021:

Personally having played many classes in pvp, not being good at most of them but i have played each enough to be an average player, i decided to stick to thief, simply because i think its one of the tougher classes to play. The only class that is harder imo is mesmer, and maybe some specific builds for classes such as s/f ele, altho i dont have enough knowledge on that.

Thief is all about patience, positioning, and knowing what your enemy is going to do. One wrong move and you die, especially in team fights. I dont see why people complain about thieves. Its really not an easy class to play, and the ones who are good only survive because they know what you are going to do. I really think thief should not be nerfed, and if buffed only a little bit because it has a nice balance of risk and reward, as well as taking a fair amount of skill to play. It just doesnt have a good place in solo pvp since teams dont understand the role of thief and the limitations.

If you have a hard time against a thief, 1. have better reactions so when they do try to burst you when you dont expect them you can move away, 2. accept that sometimes you cant win against a thief especially if you are zerk and they gank you, 3. Just take the time to learn how thieves play, and you will have an easy time countering them with any class.

Edit:
to the ranger person qqing above, i think they are a ranger, on thief ive faced some sword rangers, i forget what build but no bow, and they knew exactly how to fight thieves. They were able to dodge most of my bursts and it was one of the only hard fights against a ranger i had, because just like my build their build required some understanding to pull of properly in 1v1.

No profession has a “right” to be better if its skill cap is higher, if that were the case then mesmers would be on every team. From the start this game has been balanced around playstyles intentionally- which has worked out but made the meta boring for many.

Invoker.5462:

No profession has a “right” to be better if its skill cap is higher, if that were the case then mesmers would be on every team. From the start this game has been balanced around playstyles intentionally- which has worked out but made the meta boring for many.

I dont think i said that, and if i somehow did i didnt mean to. I was pointing out that thief is in a good place at the moment. When i was talking about skill i was pointing out that unlike many other classes a bad thief can essentially make the game a 4v5. Engies, eles, warriors, guards all have good sustain and have builds that they can bunker with meaning low skilled player can still benefit the team.

I think its a good thing to have the gameplay being based around playstyles but also around skill. And i think thief is a good example of that. You can play evasively with survivability through sword/dagger or you can be extremely bursty with dagger/pistol. Even when a thief is highly skilled hes not godlike and still fulfills a niche role, meaning that when it comes to bursting down targets or ganking other zerkers, a skilled thief will excel but when it comes to holding a point or surviving against 2 enemies a thief will not. This is the exact same thing for every class, a highly skilled engie will be able to hold down a point and put out consistent damage and heals, but will not be able to burst down targets extremely fast, stealth easily, or move around the map backcapping and +1ing.

The only reason why i think there is hate against thieves on the forums is when you are killed out of nowhere by a thief its noticeable and seems op. In reality thats just their role in pvp, and just like every other class, a skilled player should be able to fulfill it.

champ.7021:

Zenith.7301:

BlackTruth.6813:

Thief burst isn’t the real issue. Guard could do the same with the focus pre-cast, face-tank/cleave a point better and arguably finish a downed person better. Burst is something you can’t take away from Thief really. But z-axis you can cause Thief is high skill cap even without it.

Focus pre-cast is also a 45 sec cd.

thanks, ill add that to my list of non sequiturs

Clearly an irrelevant nuance to say a guardian can do thief burst every 45 seconds when a thief can do said burst with a fraction of the recharge time.

Impact.2780:

Zenith.7301:

LOL. A Maul is one of the most obvious telegraphs ever, and opening strike on stealth is a GRANDMASTER trait which most people won’t even take because predator’s onslaught is significantly better.

I can tell by that list you just made you’re not the most unbiased source. Your types deserv e to be banned from playing thief for a while and be forced to play any other berk class against teams with berk thieves.

Clearly thieves are just fine, that’s why they’re easily replaced in any tournament and top teams by other berserker classes.

Now you’ve missed your own point. From stealth right? I don’t think maul can be seen when invisible on account of it being… you know. Invisible.

As for your direct attack; I’m not going to get into what I do and don’t play, because this thread isn’t about me. I’d appreciate if you didn’t try bait responses that are specific to an individual’s playing habits irrespective of the original topic.

Yeah, thanks for glossing over the skill tooltips that just contradicted your whole “ranger can get as high with maul”.

All it tells me is you haven’t mained a ranger, like ever.

Zenith.7301:

champ.7021:

Zenith.7301:

BlackTruth.6813:

Thief burst isn’t the real issue. Guard could do the same with the focus pre-cast, face-tank/cleave a point better and arguably finish a downed person better. Burst is something you can’t take away from Thief really. But z-axis you can cause Thief is high skill cap even without it.

Focus pre-cast is also a 45 sec cd.

thanks, ill add that to my list of non sequiturs

Clearly an irrelevant nuance to say a guardian can do thief burst every 45 seconds when a thief can do said burst with a fraction of the recharge time.

no i know why u mentioned it. But what you’re saying makes no sense. So you want guards to be able to burst just as much as thieves and also do all those other things? every class has a burst they can use some have shorter cds some longer thats how its been balanced. Which is why it doesnt make sense to qq about how fast they kill.

Zenith.7301:

Yeah, thanks for glossing over the skill tooltips that just contradicted your whole "ranger can get as high with maul".

All it tells me is you haven’t mained a ranger, like ever.

1) Those weren’t tool tips. They were the names of skills.
2) It in no way contradicted what I said about ranger or any other class.
3) Unbuffed maul.
4) Maul with moment of clarity. Edit: Bah I missed the screenshot of the hit. It’s in the combat log though.
5) Maul with signet of the wild.
6) Maul with signet of the wild and some might stacks.
7) Maul with moment of clarity and some might stacks (I was actually going for a grand finale with moment of clarity, some might, AND signet of the wild, but I was a bit too slow).

"Why light golem?" It puts it into perspective really, since the 5-6k backstabs are on squishies. In fact, a shatter mesmer has 1850 armour, a meta thief has 1955 armour, and a pewpew ranger has 2055-2105 armour. That light golem has 2180 armour, so imagine those hits being a bit higher.

@Impact
I bet he’s going to say how it requires setup… (and probably that stealth doesn’t*)

Zero Day.2594:

@Impact
I bet he’s going to say how it requires setup…

That’s why I provided one without any buffs. Actually, I should have done one with might stacks only, as well, since that’s the most likely to happen in a match. I hope he’s smart enough to work out that with the difference in armour between a squishy player and the light golem, and even just a couple of might stacks, that it’ll put it over 5k.

Then the next thing up for attack is how accessible stealth is for a thief as opposed to ranger.

Impact.2780:

rainisword.7860:

There definitely isn’t enough counterplay to stealth.

AoE, cleaves, push backs, knock downs, immobilise, stuns, counter stealth, mobility, invulnerability, block. Plenty of counter play. I suppose most people that have the mindset for playing such deceptive, tricky, out-witting games are people who enjoy playing thief more than the other classes. So many players, seeing the enemy player enter stealth, will just stand there and wait to be hit, then complain. I mean, at least bloody move. Movement in itself is a counter – the weakest, granted – but they have to follow you, and that takes the same time it took you to cover that distance! It buys time, maybe even the full duration of the stealth causing it to wear off before they hit you, and it may even force them to use a resource(s) to close the gap. Counting is another underrated counter… Count the seconds, then enter stealth yourself or use an invulnerability skill or a block. Aegis too at least let’s you know the stealthed player is nearby.

rainisword.7860:

There definitely isn’t enough counterplay to stealth. Its also that there isn’t enough counterplay to certain abilities that shadowstep because they happen instantly wihtout any animation so you can’t dodge(besides the pistol shadow step). Like steal.

You mean like…
- Lightning strike (trait)
- Lightning strike (scepter)
- Blinding flash
- Hurl
- Arcane wave
- Arcane blast
- Lightning flash
- Spinal shivers
- Blink
- Phase retreat
- Smite condition
- Judge’s intervention
- Overcharged shot
- Numerous invulnerability skills like endure pain, defy pain, signet of stone (not counting mist form or elixir s because they have a tradeoff), and blocks, which can come out instantly to counter burst.
- And yes shadow step, and infiltrator’s signet. Leave steal alone, it’s a profession skill. Virtues, enter death shroud, attunement swap and alright not exactly the profession skill but practically: equip/unqeuip kit, have no cast time.

Thief has them… So does every other class. Ele and guard have the most.

Push backs and cc? Ye that works on shadow refuge lol. There isn’t enough counter play for when the thief is already stealth, thats the problem. D/P can permastealth as long as it wants, a good player will do that to bate out things like aegis or other abilities.

The reply to the shadowstep is not a good one either. Wasting a distortion or a focus 4 on earth to evade a quick steal with sigil procs isn’t a good trade off at all. Wasting big cooldowns in general to avoid an ability that thieves can do pretty frequently isn’t a good trade off either. Especially a low skill cap build like an S/D thief who can sneak in really quick and then shadowstep out. They shadowstep in, bait your cooldowns or your burst, then move back out, along with the fact that they have access to like 10 times the amount of evades as other players.

A lot of the skills you also listed as well that arn’t telegraphed probably should be. Especially some s/f ele skills. Big damage that isn’t telegraphed is essentially free and makes things too easy.

I agree that thief pushes a lot of builds out. Esp shatter.

But even if thiefs got nerfed to where specific builds were not forced rez fodder or a free 5 point feed. Our current imbalances affect more than just thief. Even if you could prove thieves were the reason the current apex preditors would still dominate at a lower skill floor and cap.

Impact.2780:

Zenith.7301:

Yeah, thanks for glossing over the skill tooltips that just contradicted your whole “ranger can get as high with maul”.

All it tells me is you haven’t mained a ranger, like ever.

1) Those weren’t tool tips. They were the names of skills.
2) It in no way contradicted what I said about ranger or any other class.
3) Unbuffed maul.
4) Maul with moment of clarity. Edit: Bah I missed the screenshot of the hit. It’s in the combat log though.
5) Maul with signet of the wild.
6) Maul with signet of the wild and some might stacks.
7) Maul with moment of clarity and some might stacks (I was actually going for a grand finale with moment of clarity, some might, AND signet of the wild, but I was a bit too slow).

“Why light golem?” It puts it into perspective really, since the 5-6k backstabs are on squishies. In fact, a shatter mesmer has 1850 armour, a meta thief has 1955 armour, and a pewpew ranger has 2055-2105 armour. That light golem has 2180 armour, so imagine those hits being a bit higher.

Are you, like blind?

It’s right there in the godkitten wiki links, the base damage and POWER SCALING COEFFICIENTS.

You posted only the screenshot of mauls, which hits for a pitiful 4.7k CRIT, and then wanted to beef it up with a 60 second cooldown signet of the wild.

Compared to a thief who can backstab as often as he can blackpowder, or hide in shadows, or shadow refuge. And how convenient of you to compare maul with backstab without bringing up might on signet use backstabs with the 15% damage boost.

By this point I just can’t take you seriously. You show someone the damage numbers from the wiki, with the coefficients, and they just proceed to ignore it. Do you have a moral objection against math or something?

rainisword.7860:

Push backs and cc? Ye that works on shadow refuge lol. There isn’t enough counter play for when the thief is already stealth, thats the problem. D/P can permastealth as long as it wants, a good player will do that to bate out things like aegis or other abilities.

The reply to the shadowstep is not a good one either. Wasting a distortion or a focus 4 on earth to evade a quick steal with sigil procs isn’t a good trade off at all. Wasting big cooldowns in general to avoid an ability that thieves can do pretty frequently isn’t a good trade off either. Especially a low skill cap build like an S/D thief who can sneak in really quick and then shadowstep out. They shadowstep in, bait your cooldowns or your burst, then move back out, along with the fact that they have access to like 10 times the amount of evades as other players.

Disabling effects and immobilise always work when they land, and are not restricted to shadow refuge. They work on thieves just as much as any other class, and when they land on a thief who isn’t able to immediately cleanse or break, he’s dead. If he survives it’s not his fault, it’s his attacker’s coordination being off, but he still needs to bail and recover.

You can’t say “but they just sit in stealth,” like the counter play isn’t countering. The fact they are forced out of the fight to sit in stealth, contributing nothing, means the counter play is working.

Any mesmer cool down is worth making a thief’s steal miss. Missing steal is huge. Thief counters mesmer very hard though, yes. S/D has a lot of evades, yes, but it has less blinds than D/P, less passive heals than an ele or warrior, is almost always playing squishy, has no blocks like warrior, guardian or engineer, has little cc, and no invulnerability skills like ele, warrior, ranger and mesmer. The “but it has so many evades,” really isn’t an argument because every other class has a way to mitigate or avoid damage too. S/D’s method is simply to use its high endurance regeneration. The difference? You don’t equip a weapon or skill, and push a button to become invulnerable for a duration. You have to build entirely around evasion, and you have to time those evades for every single hit you want to avoid.

Zenith.7301:

…
Compared to a thief who can backstab as often as he can blackpowder, or hide in shadows, or shadow refuge.
…

I will give myself a cookie.

Zenith.7301:

Are you, like blind?

It’s right there in the godkitten wiki links, the base damage and POWER SCALING COEFFICIENTS.

You posted only the screenshot of mauls, which hits for a pitiful 4.7k CRIT, and then wanted to beef it up with a 60 second cooldown signet of the wild.

Compared to a thief who can backstab as often as he can blackpowder, or hide in shadows, or shadow refuge. And how convenient of you to compare maul with backstab without bringing up might on signet use backstabs with the 15% damage boost.

By this point I just can’t take you seriously. You show someone the damage numbers from the wiki, with the coefficients, and they just proceed to ignore it. Do you have a moral objection against math or something?

No, just lazy when it comes to maths. See, I know for a fact that maul can hit "5-6k," which is the figure you gave, and the figure I worked with since. If I can prove something without typing out an equation, I will.

Do I really have to point out yet again that:
1) Light target golem has 330 more armour than light berserkers, and 225 more armour than medium berserkers.
2) I was not flanking, so add 10% to each of those (yes 4.7k*1.1=5170; i.e. over 5k).
3) I wasn’t even paying attention to movement impairments. You can see from those screens cripple being applied as I took the shot, which is obviously after maul landed, so I don’t think the 10% from Predator’s Onslaught was applied. That’s possibly 21% extra damage.

So maths... Ugh. Well it’s a bit insulting to be called "alergic to maths," when you’re the one that came here with a claim and haven’t done any yourself. I suppose you’re lazy too.

Alright, the thing to note about the formula is that it’s player-discovered, so there’s no guarantee that it is equal to the one used in the game engine. This is another reason for favouring one’s eyes, and thus another reason why I took the time to take and provide screen shots. Although, I’m starting to think you’re just don’t want to admit you’re wrong, because there’s no logical reason whatsoever for you to refute what I’ve said now. Anyhow...

Base power: 2333
Max greatsword strength: 1100
Critical damage: 1.9913 (199.13%, I’m using ogre runes)
Damage modifier: 1.2584 (Predator’s Onslaught * Hunter’s Tactics * Ogre(6))

Formula as I remember it:
damage = power*weapon*coefficient*modifiers
And if crit:
damage = damage*critical_damage
And then the target’s armour reduces it:
damage = damage/armour

So...

damage = 2333*1100*1.5*1.2584 = 4844147.88
damage = 4844147.88*1.9913 = 9646151.673444

Hit on the light golem:
damage = 9646151.673444 / 2180 = 4425
See, this is interesting. The maximum hit according to this is 300 odd less than my screenshot, and yet this took into account the damage modifiers that as I’ve already pointed out, weren’t present in my screenshots.

Let’s see on a mesmer:
damage = 9646151.673444 / 1850 = 5214
Oh look. It’s over 5k.

How about on a thief:
damage = 9646151.673444 / 1955 = 4934
That’s practically 5k, and taking into account the actual damage is proven to be higher than the formula shows, it will most definitely be well over 5k.

Now with even just a couple of might stacks, and definitely with moment of clarity or signet of the wild - which by the way isn’t a 60sec cool down, it’s 48; if you’re running two signets as a power ranger you take signet mastery... - it will be well over 6k.

Ok on the ignore list you go. I can’t bother with people who go “lalalala can’t hear you the tooltips and coefficients confirmed for over a year on the wiki for these weapon skills are wrong and maul totally does similar damage to a backstab lalalalala”.

It’s like years of youtube videos of dungeon runs with thieves and rangers in them don’t even exist. I’m being told by this guy something along the lines of Mind Wrack being equivalent damage to 100b.

EDIT: And since I actually felt like posting screenshots to end this bullcrap

Zenith.7301:

Ok on the ignore list you go. I can’t bother with people who go “lalalala can’t hear you the tooltips and coefficients confirmed for over a year on the wiki for these weapon skills are wrong and maul totally does similar damage to a backstab lalalalala”.

Zenith.7301:

Ok on the ignore list you go. I can’t bother with people who go “lalalala can’t hear you the tooltips and coefficients confirmed for over a year on the wiki for these weapon skills are wrong and maul totally does similar damage to a backstab lalalalala”.

It’s like years of youtube videos of dungeon runs with thieves and rangers in them don’t even exist. I’m being told by this guy something along the lines of Mind Wrack being equivalent damage to 100b.

Ok I get it. You’re definitely a troll. Even when I use your constantly-harped-on-about wiki-listed coefficients, you say I’m ignoring them. You cry for maths then pretend I’m acting like a child and ignoring it after I give you your desired numbers since you’re too lazy to make the effort yourself. You twist what is said because you can’t deal with it as it is. You put words into my mouth because you need something to argue against. Finally, you make a completely distorted analogy.

I truly do hope I am on your ignore list.

Thief. Full berk, ascended berk trinkets, exotic daggers with force sigil. 15 might stacks from signet.

Ranger. Full berk, ascended berk trinkets, ASCENDED greatsword with force sigil. Signet of the wild buff+ moment of clarity+rampage as one+ predator’s onslaught damage buff from crippling throw debuff.

same mob, same armor. Clearly 12k backstab= 7.4k maul.

Backstab and maul are not even on the same league, but feel free to pretend like they are equivalent burst.

What is your point exactly? You said only thief can crit 5-6k. I’ve said any class can crit for 5-6k. You started saying no ranger can’t, and now you’re showing me screenshots of it happening in WvW. I’m starting to get the impression you changed the topic without my knowing. I have no interest in discussing WvW though.

It’s not even WvW lol. And somebody can’t read the meaning of + on the number, because the whole point is no berk class can crit for what a thief does and do it as often. You yourself showed a 4.7k crit on maul average, needing a 60 sec cd, an elite, and a 30 sec cd signet to do with an ability what a thief does more unbuffed and more frequently if you want to get a maul above a 4.7k.

You’re the one wilfully ignoring the point. Thief burst is not equivalent to any other class, it’s just betetr and that’s why you see thieves instead of any other berk class in high level play.

This is about PvP. You’re now showing me damage scaling off PvE stats. It might be on an NPC, but those are the same stats used in WvW. Whatever the scenario, it’s not important. What is your point?

Impact.2780:

This is about PvP. You’re now showing me damage scaling off PvE stats. It might be on an NPC, but those are the same stats used in WvW. Whatever the scenario, it’s not important. What is your point?

The skills’ damage formula does not change based on whether it’s spvp or wvw/pve. A backstab will do that much more damage compared to a maul regardless, and that’s why the wiki tooltips are what people trust instead of your meaningless comparison that’s just plain wrong.

Do you want me to take the screenshots naked? Backstab will still outdamage maul by a fair margin. Sorry, you can’t wiggle your way out of base damage differences and a coefficient that’s almost twice that of maul.

Zero Day.2594:

Impact, why do you bother?

Mm?
Really, Impact.
Educating randoms on forums is not the best spend time. :P

Zenith.7301:

Impact.2780:

This is about PvP. You’re now showing me damage scaling off PvE stats. It might be on an NPC, but those are the same stats used in WvW. Whatever the scenario, it’s not important. What is your point?

The skills’ damage formula does not change based on whether it’s spvp or wvw/pve. A backstab will do that much more damage compared to a maul regardless, and that’s why the wiki tooltips are what people trust instead of your meaningless comparison that’s just plain wrong.

Do you want me to take the screenshots naked? Backstab will still outdamage maul by a fair margin. Sorry, you can’t wiggle your way out of base damage differences and a coefficient that’s almost twice that of maul.

Dear God man. I can own your whole little charade right now by saying DUH. Yes backstab hits higher. It always has. Now, kindly show me where anyone – specifically myself – said otherwise. Show me where the topic was “maul = backstab.” I think you’ll find it was you saying maul can’t hit 5-6k, and me saying yes it can. I’m starting to sound like a broken record. Now that I’ve proven it irrefutably to you, you’re just trying to save face by attempting to alter what this was about. As if I’d ever be so stupid as to say maul and backstab were equal. I’m insulted that you’d try to pull that. The only one wiggling here is you.

Dont some stats change between pvp and pve? for example people messed up thief rotations in pve by testing them in pvp, (thinking you should start hs at 50% instead of 25% health). My normal backstabs with crit strikes is 5-6k sometimes that jumps up with fire sigil procs

why has this thread become about backstab vs maul?? Rangers have #2 on LB and can hit at a distance of 1900, which i can definitely not do on thief. I think sb needs a buff

Impact.2780:

Zenith.7301:

Impact.2780:

This is about PvP. You’re now showing me damage scaling off PvE stats. It might be on an NPC, but those are the same stats used in WvW. Whatever the scenario, it’s not important. What is your point?

The skills’ damage formula does not change based on whether it’s spvp or wvw/pve. A backstab will do that much more damage compared to a maul regardless, and that’s why the wiki tooltips are what people trust instead of your meaningless comparison that’s just plain wrong.

Do you want me to take the screenshots naked? Backstab will still outdamage maul by a fair margin. Sorry, you can’t wiggle your way out of base damage differences and a coefficient that’s almost twice that of maul.

Dear God man. I can own your whole little charade right now by saying DUH. Yes backstab hits higher. It always has. Now, kindly show me where anyone – specifically myself – said otherwise. Show me where the topic was “maul = backstab.” I think you’ll find it was you saying maul can’t hit 5-6k, and me saying yes it can. I’m starting to sound like a broken record. Now that I’ve proven it irrefutably to you, you’re just trying to save face by attempting to alter what this was about. As if I’d ever be so stupid as to say maul and backstab were equal. I’m insulted that you’d try to pull that. The only one wiggling here is you.

Of course it can, except when it hits for 4.7k, and you need to use an elite, a 60 sec cd (which is 60 sec, because traiting for it at 48 also means giving up either a hefty crit chance increase from spotter or giving up piercing arrows), a 30 sec one to hit that 6k mark. Clearly the average maul is hitting for 6k.

I grow tired of you. In one post you do a damage forumula for both maul and backstab, showing “similar” damage, and on the next you say you never meant to say maul could compete with backstab numbers.

You even gloated about screenshots trumping a wiki, and when provided screenshots that contradict your claim, you simply try to distract by saying they are with PvE stats, as if that changes anything.

champ.7021:

Dont some stats change between pvp and pve? for example people messed up thief rotations in pve by testing them in pvp, (thinking you should start hs at 50% instead of 25% health). My normal backstabs with crit strikes is 5-6k sometimes that jumps up with fire sigil procs

why has this thread become about backstab vs maul?? Rangers have #2 on LB and can hit at a distance of 1900, which i can definitely not do on thief. I think sb needs a buff

No, the skill damage does not change. That was before the critical damage change and ferocity introduction lowering the crit damage cap.

And that heartseeker scenario was wrong to begin with. The pvp scenario doesn’t change, heartseeker’s damage is the same for the thresholds in both pvp and pve, and the fact is hs is never worth it at 50% versus a cnd>backstab weaving in between autoattacks. HS for damage is only ever optimal over the alternatives at 25%, except in pve you want to keep above the 6 initiative threshold to get the bonus damage (which is not feasible in pvp sometimes).

Rapid Fire is a channeled skill, that doesn’t hit from invisibility, and can be reflected and whose damage is consumed by aegis/block (unlike backstab, which does not reveal the thief it’s blocked or misses via blind).

Rapid Fire’s DPS is undeniably worse than a backstab.

Eyia Hellhide.7320:

Zero Day.2594:

Impact, why do you bother?

Mm?
Really, Impact.
Educating randoms on forums is not the best spend time. :P

I know but I often overestimate people’s ability to understand reason and logic, and end up spending a great deal of time on trying to help them get it. If it’s not an endless cycle of reminding them what they’re arguing was countered a couple of paragraphs ago, it’s someone trying to alter the entire history of a discussion so they don’t have to say they made a mistake.

champ.7021:

Dont some stats change between pvp and pve? for example people messed up thief rotations in pve by testing them in pvp, (thinking you should start hs at 50% instead of 25% health). My normal backstabs with crit strikes is 5-6k sometimes that jumps up with fire sigil procs

why has this thread become about backstab vs maul?? Rangers have #2 on LB and can hit at a distance of 1900, which i can definitely not do on thief. I think sb needs a buff

Some do, yes. Cloak and dagger is one. A friend actually said the exact same thing you are about heartseeker to me the other day. I never knew about it being weaker in PvP, and the wiki didn’t say anything about it either, so I really don’t know. Back stab I believe has the same coefficient in PvP as it does in PvE and WvW.

The thread is not about back stab and maul. The discussion concerning maul should have ended before it began.

Zenith.7301:

Of course it can, except when it hits for 4.7k, and you need to use an elite, a 60 sec cd, a 30 sec one to hit that 6k mark. Clearly the average maul is hitting for 6k.

I grow tired of you. In one post you do a damage forumula for both maul and backstab, showing “similar” damage, and on the next you say you never meant to say maul could compete with backstab numbers.

You even gloated about screenshots trumping a wiki, and when provided screenshots that contradict your claim, you simply try to distract by saying they are with PvE stats, as if that changes anything.

Look again dude. I made no damage formula for backstab. Only for Maul because you kept banging on about it. Like I said, I never compared back stab to maul; that was you. I simply corrected you that maul can indeed crit for 5-6k. Also, the elite was never used – no idea where you got that from – and even if it was it has no affect on how hard maul hits… The signet was 48s CD, not 60s – back to repeating myself here. The 6k mark can be reached on a player that has less armour than the light golem (still repeating myself sigh), and of course in a PvP match there will be might stacks applied through team synergy (another repetition).

Oh, yeah, maul can hit for 6k, when blowing a bunch of lengthy cooldowns under ideal circumstances where the planets align. So going by that little nitpick, I guess I should amend my statement about backstab hitting for 5-6k to you knnow, hitting for 7-9k, because it CAN hit those numbers regardless of them not being the average numbers if I conjure up a bunch of special circumstances.

But ok, I’m totally enlightened. I expect a swarm of power rangers to take over the tournaments after this great discovery of yours. Tremble in fear thieves, rangers are here to take your ganking spots.

Impact.2780:

Base power: 2333
Max greatsword strength: 1100
Critical damage: 1.9913 (199.13%, I’m using ogre runes)
Damage modifier: 1.2584 (Predator’s Onslaught * Hunter’s Tactics * Ogre(6))

Tbh I’m not sure that you did correct math.
Why u count ogre runes damage. There are no need to include runes modifiers in math (cause they are class independent). And there are no place for Predator’s Onslaught trait if we are talking about metabuilds (Read The Wind is usual choice).

Cause I don’t see the math behind thief calculations I’m not shure you included Exposed weakness (10%) and Lead attacks (~6-15%) traits modifiers (d/p current meta).
I think while burst damage can be roughly same the difference is prereq setup and rate of application. Mesmer can land burst every 12-15s and burst really predictable most times. Ranger can’t do their maul from stealth consistently, i.e big tells usually (not for longbow though ^^).
Personally I’m ok with thieves burst. Mb weapon mobility?

EDIT: "Why u count ogre runes damage. " I got it. Maul can hit for 5k certainly If this is what you are saying.

1) Might stacks from allies aren’t from lengthy cool downs.
2) The only requirement is landing the skill, and it being a critical hit. No special circumstances. (Armour difference and might stacks again, you know - although that formula showed a bit over 5k on a mesmer with no buffs whatsoever). I added those in additionally because the point was "it can," nothing more, nothing less.
3) Oh yeah, I’ve been for 10k with a backstab in PvP before. On a squishy of course. It was a D/P 6/6/0/0/2 signet might stack build that hit me. Dude got me twice before I figured what he was using, and spent the rest of the match hunting and killing him over and over. That’s how it goes with extremely high risk builds. The guy presented 0 threat for most of the game.
4) I am a fan of sarcasm despite it being the lowest form of wit, but not in a way that forces someone to have to clarify once again. I never said rangers would replace thieves. As long as thieves continue to excel at mobility, their place in PvP will be secure.

Ranger isn’t passed over for mobility. Greatsword on a ranger is virtually one of the most mobile specs in the game, Swoop has a joke of a cooldown and with the 25% speed signet a ranger is not having trouble rotating. If for some reason longbow is passed over, greatsword/sword+axe or warhorn has swoop+ monarch’s leap which is not something even a thief can catch if the ranger wants to disengage, because the cooldowns on those skills are that low. Mobility is NOT a ranger problem.

Ranger is getting passed over because it can’t burst anywhere near as often or as reliable/potent , maul is a hilariously easy telegraph to avoid, ranger has no strong aoe/cleave to speak of, and his survivability is summarized by signet of stone, which is on a long cd so its uptime for fights is, well, really low. Stunbreaks on a ranger are just bad, generally long cd’s with weak effects.

Basically, besides rapid fire there is really no reason to bring a ranger over a thief, and rapid fire cannot carry a class that’s outmatched in every other aspect. Longbow is only a strong weapon if you can camp on it, but most classes in this game have some tool to stay in your face and the longbow simply has no real kiting tools. So the one thing the ranger can do better than anyone (ranged single target pressure) is easily neutralized by most comps.

A thief could keep up with that, but following that distance will likely get him killed for over reaching toward that ranger and his allies he would most likely be running to. Ranger is outmatched in the mobility department though, because it does not have the ports. It might have the range, which makes up for it to some extent - for example not needing to go all the way to a point to join the fight, but if it’s going for a decap, it needs to get all the way there. It will be slower, and very easily spotted disengaging/crossing a point to get to its destination, whereas a thief can cloak and dagger before disengaging, or shadow step right across a point.

It does lack cleave though yes. It can still spike down from a distance, much like a mesmer, but it doesn’t have a poison field for enemy res attempts, and its ranged AoE (longbow 5) is lame. To cleave or use maul as the only AoE it has requires getting in to where it might not be easily able to get back out.

Zero Day.2594:

But like you pointed out, it’s silly that meta builds revolve around game modes and mechanics within the game mode. Meta builds clearly revolve around 1 and only 1 class, and that is the thief!

To further extend this, it’s possible that when they were developing the game modes, they made sure that they were building around one class, then once the game was in place people would have to create builds that build around that same one class and the mode that also builds around that one class – and that one class being the thief.

This is how game design works in practice, just picking the thief/rogue/assassin/ninja class and making things revolve around it. Also how they balance things.

It is actually funny, if I hear from most people who spend their times in 1v1 Arenas, Thief apparently do not hold the first place (like top 5 specs with D/P) :P

But yea, this is not even about the meta being build around Thieves… It is apparently now about “Ermergerd Teef OhPee!” – of which we had seen countless of threads already…

I guess I know why you and Yolo Swaggins are like this… It is the only way to even communicate with people since they will only reply with “LALALALA, I CAN’T HEAR YOU TEEF OP LALALALA” in the end anyway…

Zero Day.2594:

Zenith.7301:

…
Compared to a thief who can backstab as often as he can blackpowder, or hide in shadows, or shadow refuge.
…

I will give myself a cookie.

Can i give you a cookie too?

i totally missed that beautiful work you wrote that googley brandon just replied to. I laughed pretty hard xD

GoogleBrandon.5073:

It is actually funny, if I hear from most people who spend their times in 1v1 Arenas, Thief apparently do not hold the first place (like top 5 specs with D/P) :P

But yea, this is not even about the meta being build around Thieves… It is apparently now about “Ermergerd Teef OhPee!” – of which we had seen countless of threads already…

I guess I know why you and Yolo Swaggins are like this… It is the only way to even communicate with people since they will only reply with “LALALALA, I CAN’T HEAR YOU TEEF OP LALALALA” in the end anyway…

Rome.7124:

woah,

are people implying Thieves are dying breed in sPvP? C’mon, as a Mesmer and Ranger player, that cant be more further from the truth. And suggesting Thieves need some buffs in order to compete with current “meta” is just delusional, the Anet might as well remove Mesmers, Rangers and Necros from sPvP. Those three are the classes that need “adjustment” for sPvP not thieves.

Well necromancer already 2-shots everyone. I guess necro should kill people just by looking at them?

Ravenmoon.5318:

Rome.7124:

woah,

are people implying Thieves are dying breed in sPvP? C’mon, as a Mesmer and Ranger player, that cant be more further from the truth. And suggesting Thieves need some buffs in order to compete with current “meta” is just delusional, the Anet might as well remove Mesmers, Rangers and Necros from sPvP. Those three are the classes that need “adjustment” for sPvP not thieves.

Well necromancer already 2-shots everyone. I guess necro should kill people just by looking at them?

Pretty funny that people think Necro is bad when it’s a sleeper class atm. Just shows that you shouldn’t really balanced around the majority. Specially when abjured is crushing with the power Necro already.

Yes, a substantial amount of people have been talking out of their necks for the past 2.5 years about a class they play – people who do not play it obviously know more about it’s potential…

… This is the reason why people will always be like "Oh no, “X” is OP – NERF X!!!! Q.Q" – Profession Xenophobia is real after all…

GoogleBrandon.5073:

It is actually funny, if I hear from most people who spend their times in 1v1 Arenas, Thief apparently do not hold the first place (like top 5 specs with D/P) :P

But yea, this is not even about the meta being build around Thieves… It is apparently now about “Ermergerd Teef OhPee!” – of which we had seen countless of threads already…

I guess I know why you and Yolo Swaggins are like this… It is the only way to even communicate with people since they will only reply with “LALALALA, I CAN’T HEAR YOU TEEF OP LALALALA” in the end anyway…

If by 1v1 Arenas, you mean imaginary bubbled universes where only certain condition are applied and keep being applied to the advantage of who’s arguing, yeah. Or possibly, WvW 1v1’ing. Besides stroking one’s own ego, 1v1’ing has little to no use in any game mode – at least from my understanding of what needs to be done in those game modes…

Well, I think it started of with meta/game revolving around thieves, and now it’s spiraled down to just another TEE OhPEE thread.

Yeah, pretty much. That’s why in my first few posts I tried to sound like them and communicate with their kind. Some good advice has always been to try and play the class you’re having problems with, to learn it a bit and hopefully make your own counters. Typically saying that straight up get’s ignored. So, hopefully by making it sound like I’m agreeing with the OP and all the others that think TEEF is OP and saying they should roll one and join the master race, they actually might hear it and consider it. Though, this is not so that they could learn about it and counter it (I have no faith in that), this is so that there’s more loot bags running around and so that the leather prices go up a bit…

There was a funny incident that happened couple weeks ago, where some guy was complaining about thieves, and until he finally said “kitten it! going to make one and show you just how easy/OP they are”. He came back to tell us how he was a bit wrong… though he brought back some even crazier ideas with him, these not nerfing the thief but “changing” the other classes. O well, props to that guy for at least trying. Hopefully he bought some leather and died a couple times in WvW.

Nyx.7342:

Zero Day.2594:

Zenith.7301:

…
Compared to a thief who can backstab as often as he can blackpowder, or hide in shadows, or shadow refuge.
…

I will give myself a cookie.

Can i give you a cookie too?

Depends on what kind, and if it is or isn’t laced with anything.

yolo swaggins.2570:

…

GoogleBrandon.5073:

Yes, a substantial amount of people have been talking out of their necks for the past 2.5 years about a class they play – people who do not play it obviously know more about it’s potential…

… This is the reason why people will always be like "Oh no, “X” is OP – NERF X!!!! Q.Q" – Profession Xenophobia is real after all…

That’s rich coming from you….you pray so much about multi-classing but your profession bias remain quite obvious…

Yep, the meta is centered around Thieves…

That is why most optimal builds are like AoE happy machines that makes spectating for a new player seems as if they are watching Rainbow-Simulator 2…

… Or was the meta buid around, you know, conquest? Might sound silly, I know, but there might be a possibility no?

Supreme.3164:

GoogleBrandon.5073:

Yes, a substantial amount of people have been talking out of their necks for the past 2.5 years about a class they play – people who do not play it obviously know more about it’s potential…

… This is the reason why people will always be like "Oh no, “X” is OP – NERF X!!!! Q.Q" – Profession Xenophobia is real after all…

That’s rich coming from you….you pray so much about multi-classing but your profession bias remain quite obvious…

Yep, the meta is centered around Thieves…

That is why most optimal builds are like AoE happy machines that makes spectating for a new player seems as if they are watching Rainbow-Simulator 2…

… Or was the meta buid around, you know, conquest? Might sound silly, I know, but there might be a possibility no?

Cool, I got a follower…

So that means you realize that I got the least time spent on my Thief as compared to any other profession? (Except Ranger in PvP)

That I most recently made a thread because I got no clue how to play the profession?

Also – try and find a post where I accuse a profession from being OP and should be nerfed into the ground… I might have said something in the past about professions, but I would dare to bet my whole 33g that I never expressed such bias towards a profession as opposed to many people within this forum

Impact.2780:

rainisword.7860:

There definitely isn’t enough counterplay to stealth.

AoE, cleaves, push backs, knock downs, immobilise, stuns, counter stealth, mobility, invulnerability, block. Plenty of counter play. I suppose most people that have the mindset for playing such deceptive, tricky, out-witting games are people who enjoy playing thief more than the other classes. So many players, seeing the enemy player enter stealth, will just stand there and wait to be hit, then complain. I mean, at least bloody move. Movement in itself is a counter – the weakest, granted – but they have to follow you, and that takes the same time it took you to cover that distance! It buys time, maybe even the full duration of the stealth causing it to wear off before they hit you, and it may even force them to use a resource(s) to close the gap. Counting is another underrated counter… Count the seconds, then enter stealth yourself or use an invulnerability skill or a block. Aegis too at least let’s you know the stealthed player is nearby.

rainisword.7860:

There definitely isn’t enough counterplay to stealth. Its also that there isn’t enough counterplay to certain abilities that shadowstep because they happen instantly wihtout any animation so you can’t dodge(besides the pistol shadow step). Like steal.

You mean like…
- Lightning strike (trait)
- Lightning strike (scepter)
- Blinding flash
- Hurl
- Arcane wave
- Arcane blast
- Lightning flash
- Spinal shivers
- Blink
- Phase retreat
- Smite condition
- Judge’s intervention
- Overcharged shot
- Numerous invulnerability skills like endure pain, defy pain, signet of stone (not counting mist form or elixir s because they have a tradeoff), and blocks, which can come out instantly to counter burst.
- And yes shadow step, and infiltrator’s signet. Leave steal alone, it’s a profession skill. Virtues, enter death shroud, attunement swap and alright not exactly the profession skill but practically: equip/unqeuip kit, have no cast time.

Thief has them… So does every other class. Ele and guard have the most.

yea nice list, but the issue here is how frequently thief can access stealth skills compare to other classes disengage/stealth skills. Thief has no cool down, and totally invulnerable to Mesmer’s GM skill power block is just total bullkitten.

@Impact
Once they mention STEALTHZORS you will not be able to win the arguemwnt or convince them of anything.

You’ve tried valiantly.

Oh and apparently invoker tried playing the thief and he’s godly at it. So yeah guys, roll one today and reap the benefits!

Zenith.7301:

Ranger isn’t passed over for mobility. Greatsword on a ranger is virtually one of the most mobile specs in the game, Swoop has a joke of a cooldown and with the 25% speed signet a ranger is not having trouble rotating. If for some reason longbow is passed over, greatsword/sword+axe or warhorn has swoop+ monarch’s leap which is not something even a thief can catch if the ranger wants to disengage, because the cooldowns on those skills are that low. Mobility is NOT a ranger problem mps.

None of this ranger mobility is z axis teleports, so it almost doesn’t count.

None of this mobility will get you from center point to stillness in 3 seconds, or will let you jump up the ledge above center point on Kyhlo allowing you to free cast AoE. Nor will this mobility allow you to skip the maze of choke points going from the trebuchet to center point.

Only on the relatively flat map FoeFire, and only away from center point does the ranger mobility rank as top class.

This whole cool down business has been discussed in depth in numerous places, on numerous occasions. I’m too tired to entertain you by spending yet more time explaining thief mechanics. If you truly want to get somewhere, you’ll search for the information yourself. Else, if you simply just wish to moan, no amount of reason and logic will convince you of the facts.

I could literally spend the rest of this year explaining away complaints taken out of context (leaving out aspects of other classes in order to claim thief is OP). Each time I explain away one, someone else will come along with "actually, the issue was <insert complaint> all along!" And again after that one is explained, and again, and again, until new people come along and make the same complaints that were addressed months before, but refuse everything that was posted because it wasn’t posted in response to their concerns directly, because /logic. By that time the people that made the same complaint months ago have since learned better from actually playing and not whining, but of course do not dare come back to point out how wrong they were. The cycle continues.

Edit: Sorry if I come across a bit hostile, I’m dead on my feet.

Stop feeding this troll for the love of the kitten