Guild Wars 2

A general agreement within the PVP community is that the current metagame is bad. We hate it, we want it resolved and we want to do away with it. But before we proceed to picking up our pitchforks and chasing the ogre known as ANet, let us take a close inspection of the problem. It is important to clearly identify the roots of the problem. What is it all about? Perhaps we can find a resolution that will not require nerfs on the part of Condi classes after all.

I firmly believe that the problem lies not with condi specs themselves but how the game itself handles conditions. To elaborate on this point, let us review the mechanics of conditions in the game. There are two principles that govern condition application in the game:

Stack – Conditions stack, either in duration or intensity, from multiple sources. This means that if you apply a condition on a player, the condition you applied will tick on top of what’s already applied to him by other players

Chain – Once a condition expires or cleansed, the same condition can be reapplied by a different source without limitation

For counter play, there are 3 main methods:

Cleansing – A set number or type of condition is removed by specific skills or traits.

Duration Decrease – Certain rune sets and/or traits lower the duration of conditions applied to oneself.

Increased Health Pool – The vitality stat increases your HP pool in order that the effects of damage type conditions are lower generally.

If we examine the mitigation methods available in PVP, we see that these can deal with a single condition source. Versus a singular condition source, it can be argued that the amount of counter play available in the game can be considered as balanced. The problem now is that this amount of counter play does not scale when we have multiple condition sources. We just don’t have enough counterplay available if we face multiple sources that can stack or chain conditions. We can’t do anything against being chain feared by multiple necro compositions. We can’t do anything against that burning since as soon as we cleanse it, another one is applied on us again by another source. The amount of condition counter play available is able to handle a singular source but unable to handle multiple condition sources. This is why teams with multiple necro/ranger/engi compositions simply dominate other classes. In those cases, it’s no longer a matter of if you die or not. It’s a question of how long will you be able to stand before you die.

I coined the term stack-chain effect to name this phenomenon. This is what I think is the root of all this mess. Surprisingly, this has been present in the game from release. In fact, I have observed this prior to the big July PVP patch. How many of us have been dominated by multiple condi engineer compositions in PVP prior to the patch, especially grenade condi specs who chain their condis at you? How many of us have been messed up by multiple confusion spec mesmers in WVWho chain their confusion after you cleanse? However this issue has been thoroughly observed only recently when the patch came due to the sudden influx of condi specs, not to mention the increased potency of these specs.

How can we resolve this issue then? There are multiple ways to resolve this. One possible way is a complete overhaul of the game where we make most of the damage mainly power based and treat conditions as auxiliary damage source/utility. This is good but can be very resource intensive on the part of ANet. Other players proposed to the toning down of condi specs. I will have to disagree with this since it does not resolve the problem itself. It’s a band-aid fix that will simply nerf certain specs to oblivion, all the while, the stack-chain problem is still there. Finally there are the ones who advocate the increase of cleansing capabilities of certain classes. I dislike that since it will lead to chaotic gameplay based on an arms race. What I propose is a fundamental change to the way conditions are handled by the game.
Sinply stated, if the amount of available counter play is only sufficient for a singular source, limitations must be placed on the potency of multiple condi sources. The game can be made such that if player A applies condition X on target 1, only player A can stack-chain the said condition on target 1. This can be done by making target 1 invulnerable to the application of condition X by other players apart from player A as long as
1. The condition X applied by Player A is in duration or
2. An N number of seconds has not yet passed after the condition X applied by player A expired/ was cleansed (The amount of time can be scaled according to condition potency)
Note that I only propose the invulnerability to the condi application of the skill, not the power damage done by the skill.

In addition, the game must have an established cleanse prioritization. It can be argued that some conditions are more deadly than others. Most cleanses available have a “chance factor” to them since it can only cleanse 3 of the 8 conditions already applied. I personally think that damage dealing conditions should be prioritized by cleansing skills first but that is open to argument. For one, it allows defensive conditions to linger so that the condi player can play defensively in certain instances but this is another discussion.

What Im advocating is simply this; make condition gameplay a dance, not a one sided spamfest. If the counterplay available can only handle so much, make it so that the incoming stuff scales to what is available.

The proposals I stated above allows condi specs to exist. They are still viable, however a certain skill set is now required of them. They are punished for spamming or other form of poor gameplay. Most of all this also puts a limitation to the stack –chain phenomena, which not fun. Ask anyone who has been chained feared by multiple necros or chained burned by a group with a spirit ranger. GL HF
Regards,
Joonhyung Hiraishin

I’m sorry what? When you say multiple source you are talking from more than one player?
Dude its damage coming from multiple players its supposed to wreck face. A mesmee cant come tripping balls over power damage because a warrior and thief nuked him out of orbit.

You want two attackers to equal less than two if they utilize conditions wtf? There is no stack problem as stacks themselves have caps.

Why do people still act like conditions aren’t tied to attacks? Are all condition-inflicting skills undodgeable, unblockable, area effect, heat-seeking missiles that pierce invisibility, invincibility, and terrain obstructions?

@ensoriki

Yes you are correct when you point out that damage from multiple players is intended to do such however, in the case of power damage, you can actually do counterplay based on skill. Create distance, split them, use position, etc. In the case of condi specs what counter play is available once the cleanses have been exhausted? To reason out for such occurence to be ok since its meant to be that way simply doesnt make sense.

@The Boz

Indeed they are tied to attacks but if you have n number of skills that apply condition do you think the amount of dodges, blocks and defensive capabilites you have can handle it? Lets be realistic here.

Joon.8931:

@ensoriki

Yes you are correct when you point out that damage from multiple players is intended to do such however, in the case of power damage, you can actually do counterplay based on skill. Create distance, split them, use position, etc. In the case of condi specs what counter play is available once the cleanses have been exhausted? To reason out for such occurence to be ok since its meant to be that way simply doesnt make sense.

@The Boz

Indeed they are tied to attacks but if you have n number of skills that apply condition do you think the amount of dodges, blocks and defensive capabilites you have can handle it? Lets be realistic here.

He is being realistic being on my phone makes responding in depth a pain in the kitten but its numbers that and your example for power damage is not power exclusive. The problem is you speak as if attacks that apply conditions are completely foreign to how attacks actually work when they follow the rules to a T in reality. Simple example if two thieves try to spam death blossom on you its two melee attacks you can do all the active provisions that you would do against power damage in this same situation except for endure pain and protect me. You can’t think me so foolish to think a melee attack is not melee because it applies conditions. In fact while death blossom blows what you said for “counterplay” is exactly how everyone handles it. Create distance because its melee, interrupt, if all else fails you remove the condition and mitigate the bulk of its damage.

Conditions are not aliens. They don’t suddenly of them self not require positioning.
Engi, necro? These are professions with many conditions of them self which makes them problematic individually because they apply so many so frequently as individuals that condi removal often feels trivial because its reapplied so fast and there are so many to cleanse.
Which hell wasn’t even a big deal on the necro until they threw two additional DOTs on them. Mesmer in WvW had PvE scaling for a more that is still PvP oriented of course it + all the other ridiculous crap in WvW made them daunting.

Oh, hey! Hell’s not censored. Learn something new everyday here.

I am still puzzled by the “by the time you use all your dodges, cleanses, blocks, etc., you are restacked with conditions” argument. What is it you do in the meantime? Just stand there and cleansing conditions? Meditate on your mortality?
I don’t get it.

We can think of new solutions all day long, but it wont help.
Why?
Because a balance for all the content (PVE/PvP/WvW) will never work, NEVER!
That is why PvP is such a mess and it wont change until Anet finally recognizes that they have been on the wrong path all along.

@ the Boz and @ ensoriki

It seems that both of you are implying that since skills that inflict damage via condition and skills that apply damage via power needs to land to do damage, both are at par with each other since they can be blocked dodged, etc. Indeed this assumption is correct how ever you are forgetting one important difference between the two mechanics.

The reality is things will land in this game. No amount of skill can stop things from landing. Even thieves with lots of evades will get hit. But there is a big difference when a power based attack lands from a condi based skill. A power based attack requires a full combo for them to deliver their full damage attack. I cant prevent the initial parts of the attack from landing initially but I can stop them from delivering the full damage they can deliver through good reactions. This is not the case in conditions as its simply delivers its full guaranteed damage capability at the initial application of the skill, albeit ticking over time. When an 8 sec burning gets applied by one single attack that’s guaranteed 6k damage unless its removed. The only way this can be reacted to is through cleanses. The very nature of conditions, coupled with the spammability of the skills delivering them is what makes things very difficult for players.

I personally dont mind it 1 v 1 but in the case of multiple opponents, this gete very one sided.

Joon.8931:

I cant prevent the initial parts of the attack from landing initially but I can stop them from delivering the full damage they can deliver through good reactions. This is not the case in conditions as its simply delivers its full guaranteed damage capability at the initial application of the skill

Your argument makes no sense. How do you partially block a skill?

I assume he means blocking one or more hits of a multi hit skill.

Either way what he is saying is not real life.
Conditions don’t give their full damage upfront and some conditions require set up or are multi hit like Sneak Attack or epidemic. In which case you have the full duration of the condition in which to cleanse it to mitigate damage

Maybe its a reality only glass specs are aware of an attack is an attack. Getting hit with some thief’s death blossom is far more favourable for me than eating an eviscerate, skull crack, shatter, arcane burst, or backstab. I can mitigate death blossoms damage with a cleanse or heal I have time because it takes time.
If a I don’t dodge an 8s burn that does 5k in total it has the potential for 5k but I have 8s to cope with that after failing to prevent the burn in the first place. Fairly lenient to didn’t dodge eviscerate now I’m either dead or an axe auto away from it. Spam is everywhere power and condi outside of the engi it’s only more apparent now because of nerfs to burst.

Conditions arent aliens.

I just no want be forced to run a predictable playstile like before. If all players be forced to run dps, some classes back to be unkilable or near unkilable.
- Elementaris and Guardians back to bunker/high dps build.
- Thieves become unkilable with perma stealth or evade.
- Stun lock warriors will raise in every place (because will be only viable build in PvP), then the next request will be: Please, nerf CC warriors!

The problem with conditions are Engineers.

Yeah the meta seems fine now, I griped too soon in frustration.

I was wrong.

These things have their place.

There’s a single most glaring issue with conditions and that’s potential damage per attack/application. While the initial attacks can be evaded and dodged to some extent in the same way power attacks can be (procs can not be avoided), as soon as any kind of attack hits, you can get hit by an attack that deals 10k damage.

When you get hit by a power attack, it firstly matters which attack hit you and secondly its potential damage is way lower than a condi attack can hit you for in general.

The solution is simple: Lower the potential damage on condi applying attacks by reducing their duration and decreasing their cool down at the same time, so that overall damage is not nerfed.

The Boz.2038:

I am still puzzled by the “by the time you use all your dodges, cleanses, blocks, etc., you are restacked with conditions” argument. What is it you do in the meantime? Just stand there and cleansing conditions? Meditate on your mortality?
I don’t get it.

You attack the necro, and because their condition build also enables them to retain a large amount of survivability, you probably die far before they do, in a lot of cases.

And explain to me how a melee class is supposed to dodge a necro’s condi circles when they’re either spawned on top of the melee, or spawned around the necro? Run around them while getting attacked from range, or run through them anyway just to get some damage in? Both get you killed.

If you’re talking about the marks, you can dodge into them to trigger them and avoid ANY damage. If you’re talking about Grasping Dead or Enfeebling Blood, those have a recognizable casting animation, and you can often avoid them by simply changing course, as the necro will almost always aim those in front of the target.
Also, the survivability of the necro is pure facetank and a fear. If you force him to use the DS or staff fear defensively, you have most likely won, as he no longer has the option of chain-fear. Two extremes currently counter a necro: the S/D thief drops him FAST, and the M/S+GS Warrior stuns him silly and kills him while eating up the conditions and laughing at them.
You’re never supposed to be able to outright avoid all the damage of any offensive build.

Heals aside, assuming it all hits, I know four ways to soak direct damage: protection, weakness, toughness, vitality.
Is there any ways to soak condition damage besides vitality and cleanse?

No, because that was the entire point: to counter builds that were designed to outlast the damage through mitigation. The fact that they outpace healing, regeneration, and ignore mitigation, enables conditions to do precisely that. Any three fixes commonly suggested by certain members of the community (reduction in frequency of application, lowering the damage of conditions, adding mitigation boons or stats) would completely destroy their place as they would no longer be able to outdo the healing and cleanses that a bunker build carries.
The only outliers at the moment are the burning on the necro, which flat out doesn’t belong and should have been torment all along (to help the necromancer mobility issue), and the spirit ranger which, while counterable, it isn’t reliably so, as the spirit cooldowns do not function in the same way similar skills do. SPECIFIC problems require SPECIFIC solutions, not the broad-handed nerf to the entire concept of condition damage, as desired by those that actively refuse to adapt, in spite of dozens and dozens of posts filled with advice on how to find a place in the meta.

The Boz.2038:

No, because that was the entire point: to counter builds that were designed to outlast the damage through mitigation. The fact that they outpace healing, regeneration, and ignore mitigation, enables conditions to do precisely that.

Okay. What counters the counter right now then?

Quick rundown of the two popular condition build counters:
For the dhuum/terror necromancer, two types of builds work well – burst (one with a stun breaker and a single multi-condition cleanse; thief works fine) and bruiser (CC and high damage, such as the mace warrior).
For the spirit ranger, these are effective – burst (one with a single reliable CC), area damage (one multi-condition cleanse required), bruiser (exploit the fact that the build has no/one stun breaker).
Going full glass doesn’t work, and trying to outlast a condition spec doesn’t work; outkill before conditions do you in or outCC and destroy. Naturally, one skill that you need to develop is when to cleanse, as popping it too soon will doom you.

Thanks for info. So is there any place in this rock-paper-scissors for mesmers and elementalists?

I’ve no idea, honestly. I don’t try to fit my ele into pvp, and most eles I see melt. There may be a burst build for eles that works, theoretically, but thieves do it better. No idea about the mesmer.