(edited by Kazzuki.5704)
The game Methodology
Oh, it’s this thread again…
Seriously, give this game a few more months and then you can say something like that.
Again the bunker problem: Anet said they will be looking closely at bunker builds on the next update.
And, it’s not true that bunker/burst builds are the best in tPvP. Look at some of the top teams – they use max. 1 bunker and often heavy condition builds.
And downed state…. You all just need to unlearn what you learned in WoW and other MMOs, because GW2 IS kittening DIFFERENT, for God’s sake, its not WoW!
The problem is the downed state not the bunkers.
In competitive pvp they should remove that.
If not the downed state, all teams would be running 5 times thieves. Why? They’ll burst someone down in a matter of seconds, switch target to another enemy, burst him down, and repeat. They wouldn’t have to worry about someone ressing those dead guys. Hell, the whole point of the game then would be burst the kitten out of people and dont worry about anything.
That would be just wrong.
When roaming , because of downed system, do not expect to win an imbalance conflict because of the Rally system , meaning 1v2 or 2v3, even if u have skill, due to down system>rally mechanic, you will always be heavily disadvantage.
1v2 or even 2v3 you should always be at a disadvantage. I am not sure why people think that 1v2 or 2v3 should be easier than it is now. If quickness or stability is in you build, heck even a blowback or 2, or maybe you are a memser and can moa, then you can 1v2 with skill. Kill one, quickly down them then fight the other guy. It should be difficult and be seen as a feat of exceptional skill by your standards anyway right?
Balance builds totally fail if you are looking at both ends of the spectrum, casual and tournament as it incredibly hampered by the natural gaming pvp mechanics of gw2 setup.
Show me a game with a similar multi-build customization system that does not encourage niche builds and focusing on extremes for maximum effectiveness. I am getting tired of the game, so I will wait.
has implemented downed state, not as a new fun mechanic as people like to think, but actually a direct elongation of time to kill per fight. Meaning no fight will be less than 10 seconds as this makes it feel less fps and more MMO. This also is a direct counter to extremely high burst builds as it is perceived as imbalance even though the direct opposite is not frowned upon (bunker).
Firstly the game developers have already stated that they do not like where bunker builds are right now and they plan to tone them down slowly overtime; however the massive QQ fest that would ensue if they they issued massive nerfs would be more of a headache then it is worth.
They are nerfing bust build as well (albeit quiker imo) so that extremes will be curbed and we will all be pushed to the middle. Also yes they are trying to elongate battles and encourage dynamic teamwork with the downstate; this is part of their strategy to make the game e-sport viable and the investment into this idea is so heavy it is not likely to change.
What this means to you ? If you want to succeed in GW2 pvp, be a bunker or a burst class , and play like GW2 wants you to be. If you build to be balanced , both sides of the spectrum will chew you apart due to not only your lack of tools to circumvent their game design (rally system mechanic) and also their choice of playing field (Conquest Mode).
Also means their pvp dev. team is gonna fail at making gw2 an esport but thats for another discussion that focuses on when balance build is not priority in a pvp game.
As stated above it is apparent by their posts and their actions that they seek to curb massive burst and the incredi-bunker that plagues the meta currently. Yes if you want to be the most effective you must find and fill a niche for your team, this is unlikely to change and is true in almost every game that has a build system.( what is the most effective will always be king when competition is on the line).
Eventually you will get some of what you want, downstates will change but never leave, balanced cookiecutter builds will flood the meta rather than the bunker or bust cookiecutter builds there are now, more maps will come, eventually they will realize that one game mode with 3 maps gets boring fast and will add something to spice it up.
The devs may fail at e-sport( I am not convinced) or they may prove the doom and gloomers wrong; regardless some of the problems you and others have (rightly so, you paid for it and thus your input is valid) will not change because the devs have chose some features because they think that is what will help the game become e-sport. They think their degrees in game design and their position as game developers makes them better qualified then a reactionary playerbase that can never make up its mind what it wants.
“I’m watching you violate my game mode”
(edited by Colton.9460)
Thank you for the replies. Ouch i guess the forums must have been filled with hate post lately cause the replies seem to be stemming from a plethora of previous disgruntlement when approaching the discussion.
This post is not a point of view but a point out really, and i think colton has spoken very well and fair about the cause and effects of the current meta , albeit a large amount of hopefulness from the devs.
BUT , you miss the point, the aim of the post is to point out what currently is , and not what will/might be. I am just stating the game methodology as it is right now.
Infering that i am displeased with the game is childish and out of context (and actually i am not , i just play the game as is given to me) but what im understanding from multiple guild forums/this forum/guru forum, is that MANY people are upset but most dont know why exactly.
Also regarding the post from dorregray , regarding 1 should never beat 2 . The issue is that words are sometimes inadequate to paint the full picture, when a player uses skill/wit/tactics to engage an enemy or a group of enemy , the measure of success should be based on the proficiency he utilizes his plan , and the end result should be the measure. The issue with gw2 Rally system (notice i do not say down system because down system is not the fault, rally system is) , is that the enemy will never have to be put in a defensive tactical disadvantage and maintain aggression at all times. In broad strokes, the meta becomes stale , and worst, prevents players from appreciating revolutionary tactics and tricks that should have effectively worked. Meaning a kittenty game to watch. Think of the implications in viewer numbers> esport.
There are plenty of very useful balance builds out there, they just don’t specialize in killing or not getting killed in gangs, and so only organized teams run them.
And of course, there’s no interest… I’ve made at least two posts attempting to discuss balanced build mechanics and how they work into team structure, and they get purged from the front page for more complaining posts.
If it doesn’t come easy, most people won’t bother with it… that could be a motto for a lot of this board.
Jumzi (Ranger), Tarnished Coast
very well said aydeunited , its very tough when the general public feels there is something wrong but cannot pinpoint it, then point at the wrong thing , say thats at fault and worst the powers that be listen to it .
@aydenunited: Can’t you post it in class-forums, even if it isn’t the optimal solution?
It’s difficult to decipher if you’re talking about spvp or tpvp — they are very different games.
Most of what you said is probably true for spvp right now. The game is balanced for tpvp however and that is a very different story. Balanced builds are common sight in tpvp organized teams for their teamplay support in bigger fights. I run a balanced / almost bunker engineer and I’ve been very successful in helping my team. I can hold a point for a little while, or do surprising damage pretty quickly. I assault enemy nodes and cc bunkers off their point to cap it, even if I don’t kill the bunker (not everything is about killing). Etc etc. I’d consider my build more of a balanced character because of the way I play it, not necessarily because of how it’s built.
The downed state, IMO, is a double edged sword. Like Dorregaray said, without it what’s the incentive to not play a completely burst team? On the other hand, I see the OP’s point. My first few engineer builds were condition builds with some defensive skills. In 2v1 situations I could drop 1 person but was hardly ever able to finish them off, due to the remaining person still attacking me, interrupting me, etc. If the player I downed was a thief, then gg, due to them hitting me pretty hard, even in their downed state. Had that downed player just been dead, my chances of beating the second person would have greatly increased. I guess it’s one of those game mechanics I enjoy until it doesn’t work, lol
Pikachoops – Engineer, Fort Aspenwood
Once again i would like to point out, downed state whether it may be double edged, an incentive to not play burst etc etc is not the true purpose of downed state. Its main aim is to elongate time to kill. It is actually shocking to consider that a lengthened time to kill equates to fun but thats the stance Anet is taking really , with that burst builds being somewhat hampered by downed state is merely an adverse cause and effect of this elongation of time to kill.
One should always work within the premise of the game structure, therefore complaints about Burst being ineffective due to downed state and should be nerfed(the downed state), then you are just being belligerent; worst you do not understand the fundamental meaning of playing Arena.net’s Game. Its like saying u want to dribble with your hands in a football game because you have better coordination with your hands…