Guild Wars 2

The issue with 5v5 hotjoin is that it breaks down incredibly easily when players start to leave. Numerical imbalances are far more punishing for the outnumbered team, and it’s a lot easier for a game to break down completely because too many people ahve left and the remaining don’t feel like just running around capping empty points without ever meeting an enemy. I agree that 8v8 is a chaotic, pointless flustercluck, but if 3 players get bored and simultaneously leave the match is still playable and fun.

I do believe that 5v5 is “better”, and there should be more 5v5 servers. Maybe a 3:1 ratio in favour of 5v5.

I also agree that matchmaking should prioritise 5v5. In fact, I suggest you try out the following parameters for placing players who click “play now”
1. matches with <9 current players (this will prioritise non-full 5v5 servers before starting to fill 8v8 ones)
2. ongoing matches (this will help correct population imbalances faster)
3. matches with an odd number of players (cause autobalance can’t fix those)
If the placement algorithm prioritise servers that fulfil these 3 criteria games will be much more fun.

However, you should look into how many players actually USE the “play now” button. My suspicion is that players just pick a server from the list instead! I’m sure you can track this. If I’m right, then you can “encourage” players to pick more non-full 5v5 servers to join by doing a mild redesign of the pvp window:

a. hotjoin tab should be the topmost tab in the window! I can’t begin to describe how many rank 1 players I see in team arena games! If you place the hotjoin tab 3rd a lot of new players won’t even see it! If you’re dead-set on keeping the personal stats window first, at least put a big shiny “play now” button in there as well!

b change default server listing in the hotjoin tab to hide full servers (and by “full” I mean full team spots, not servers that can still fit more observers!) You could have a checkbox to enable showing full servers, or even make a dropdown menu with “show games with available team spots”, “show games with available observer spots”, and “show all games (inc full)”, but BY DEFAULT the server should hide games with no team spots.

c. change the default listing on on the hotjoin tab to list games that have already started but which are not full first: currently, servers are listed by population descending, meaning full games are shown first! On a busy day you have to scroll down a couple pages to even FIND any 5v5 games with room to join, because the topmost games are all full 8v8 servers, or 10v10 custom arenas, followed by full 5v5 games with a shedload of observers, followed by non-full 8v8 games! Players will still have the ability to sort games by population/name/map/whatever, but make the default listing something more sensible than population descending!

d. have separate tabs/filters for 5v5, 8v8, custom arenas, and “all”, with 5v5 being the default one. Currently, “all” is the default one, and because of the previous point (default listing is by population descending), new players think 8v8 is the “standard” game mode, cause that’s all they see.

e. make the serverlist refresh automatically more frequently, to stop people joining a match they think has room that turns out to be full by the time they load.

f. Just make the “play now” button more prominent!

manveruppd.7601:

The issue with 5v5 hotjoin is that it breaks down incredibly easily when players start to leave. Numerical imbalances are far more punishing for the outnumbered team, and it’s a lot easier for a game to break down completely because too many people ahve left and the remaining don’t feel like just running around capping empty points without ever meeting an enemy. I agree that 8v8 is a chaotic, pointless flustercluck, but if 3 players get bored and simultaneously leave the match is still playable and fun.

I do believe that 5v5 is “better”, and there should be more 5v5 servers. Maybe a 3:1 ratio in favour of 5v5.

I also agree that matchmaking should prioritise 5v5. In fact, I suggest you try out the following parameters for placing players who click “play now”
1. matches with <9 current players (this will prioritise non-full 5v5 servers before starting to fill 8v8 ones)
2. ongoing matches (this will help correct population imbalances faster)
3. matches with an odd number of players (cause autobalance can’t fix those)
If the placement algorithm prioritise servers that fulfil these 3 criteria games will be much more fun.

However, you should look into how many players actually USE the “play now” button. My suspicion is that players just pick a server from the list instead! I’m sure you can track this. If I’m right, then you can “encourage” players to pick more non-full 5v5 servers to join by doing a mild redesign of the pvp window:

a. hotjoin tab should be the topmost tab in the window! I can’t begin to describe how many rank 1 players I see in team arena games! If you place the hotjoin tab 3rd a lot of new players won’t even see it! If you’re dead-set on keeping the personal stats window first, at least put a big shiny “play now” button in there as well!

b change default server listing in the hotjoin tab to hide full servers (and by “full” I mean full team spots, not servers that can still fit more observers!) You could have a checkbox to enable showing full servers, or even make a dropdown menu with “show games with available team spots”, “show games with available observer spots”, and “show all games (inc full)”, but BY DEFAULT the server should hide games with no team spots.

c. change the default listing on on the hotjoin tab to list games that have already started but which are not full first: currently, servers are listed by population descending, meaning full games are shown first! On a busy day you have to scroll down a couple pages to even FIND any 5v5 games with room to join, because the topmost games are all full 8v8 servers, or 10v10 custom arenas, followed by full 5v5 games with a shedload of observers, followed by non-full 8v8 games! Players will still have the ability to sort games by population/name/map/whatever, but make the default listing something more sensible than population descending!

d. have separate tabs/filters for 5v5, 8v8, custom arenas, and “all”, with 5v5 being the default one. Currently, “all” is the default one, and because of the previous point (default listing is by population descending), new players think 8v8 is the “standard” game mode, cause that’s all they see.

e. make the serverlist refresh automatically more frequently, to stop people joining a match they think has room that turns out to be full by the time they load.

f. Just make the “play now” button more prominent!

Well said.

I mostly use “Play now”, sometimes without even entering mists

i like the 8v8 idea just so your able to have a team where everyone has a different profession. i think the maps are just abit on the small side for 8v8 tho. im always picking the 5v5 matches because of the no zerging but its always fun to have a head on pile-up and just smash each others brains out in 8v8

Guess I’m doing it wrong. I never use Play Now. I always join 8v8. It’s conquest and not deathmatch so I enjoy having the slightly larger groups.

My problem is with the map design. 3 caps on a 5v5 map is fine. 8v8 should have 4 or more imo like every other MMO that has done conquest.

If you guys think that players gravitate to 8v8 because of Play now and not because of more bodies, guess we each have our own views.

With an actual mode like WvW as competition that allows for larger numbers, spvp was never going to be big. Couple that with one spvp mode and ofc it was a no go for many I wanna say.

I honestly think that the main reason spvp isn’t big is more so due to conquest being the only mode rather than 8v8 being an option in that mode. That might be just me though. Maybe having no actual roles beyond bunker of undeath or dps played a part too.

Tyler Chapman.1832:

Israel.7056:

I don’t think 8v8 should be removed. Obviously it’s a game mode some people enjoy, myself included. If you don’t agree with my values then don’t play 8v8, simple as that. Play whatever makes you happy, let no one interfere.

If anything we need more game modes, let the players play what they want to play.

This paternalistic attitude of “what we want our youngsters to learn” is absurd. Let people decide for themselves what they want to learn. If you don’t agree with other people’s choices then keep it to yourself, no one needs anyone else’s permission to play this game as they see fit and I don’t see why they should.

It was simply a joke, I’m sure you’re fully capable of taking one. It’s a video game and we are simply attempting to provide the most quality experience we can for our players in game so they can play as they wish.

Anyways concerning the topic, there are players that impeded from getting better at our game and something we wish to do is help players understand how PvP works and help them get better if they do wish it so.

The decision on this topic has yet to be made. Either Josh or myself can give an update when a decision is made. However let me ask this, would you guys like to see less 8v8 servers? no 8v8 servers? Possibly re-work the play now so that it looks for 5v5 matches as priority?

I’m not one to vote for removing content, I just think 8v8 needs a different mode where 4 necros and 4 warriors zerg your strategy to dead. Maybe bigger maps or different game modes… dunno.

I would like to see less 8v8 server though, 5v5 should be the priority right now.

Tyler Chapman.1832:

The decision on this topic has yet to be made. Either Josh or myself can give an update when a decision is made. However let me ask this, would you guys like to see less 8v8 servers? no 8v8 servers? Possibly re-work the play now so that it looks for 5v5 matches as priority?

you can’t be seriously considering what the vocal minority on these forums are saying are you?

the ones who are enjoying 8 vs 8 are in the game, playing on your official 8 vs 8 hot join servers. i dun think many of them come to the official forums to argue with the ones who are hell bent on removing 8 vs 8 hot join servers.

i want the official net 8 vs 8 public hotjoin servers to remain.
i am sure a lot more others who play on 8 vs 8 anet hotjoin servers will agree.
you can surely check your server logs for player statistics for this.

if you want, perhaps,
remove some 8 vs 8 servers, not all.
then increase some 5 vs 5 servers.

removing 8 vs 8 servers will kill off sPvP.

personally, i do not use the “play now” button unless the game browser is broken.

i always use my custom filter to look for 8 vs 8 game rooms.

Make 5v5 the standard (play now) option, with the possibilitie to look for 8v8 games via the filter. Thats all there is to it.

Locuz.2651:

Make 5v5 the standard (play now) option, with the possibilitie to look for 8v8 games via the filter. Thats all there is to it.

yes this sounds reasonable.

8v8 is better to start, because you know you will be less a burden to your team. It is comfortable to know that you will not impact drastically your team result. In all multiplayer games, I always start in the biggest team mode, to allow to learn the game without impacting other’s enjoyment.
The real question is : would I have started to play PvP if it was 5Vs5 ? I think yes. But I am not a big PvP player (~10-20 games in 1 year is not much ;-) )

That reminds me I should play more, because I really enjoy it ! ;-)

Tyler Chapman.1832:

Israel.7056:

I don’t think 8v8 should be removed. Obviously it’s a game mode some people enjoy, myself included. If you don’t agree with my values then don’t play 8v8, simple as that. Play whatever makes you happy, let no one interfere.

If anything we need more game modes, let the players play what they want to play.

This paternalistic attitude of “what we want our youngsters to learn” is absurd. Let people decide for themselves what they want to learn. If you don’t agree with other people’s choices then keep it to yourself, no one needs anyone else’s permission to play this game as they see fit and I don’t see why they should.

It was simply a joke, I’m sure you’re fully capable of taking one. It’s a video game and we are simply attempting to provide the most quality experience we can for our players in game so they can play as they wish.

Anyways concerning the topic, there are players that impeded from getting better at our game and something we wish to do is help players understand how PvP works and help them get better if they do wish it so.

The decision on this topic has yet to be made. Either Josh or myself can give an update when a decision is made. However let me ask this, would you guys like to see less 8v8 servers? no 8v8 servers? Possibly re-work the play now so that it looks for 5v5 matches as priority?

DO NOT SHUT DOWN 8v8 SERVERS! There is a silent majority that loves 8v8.

Do absolutely NOTHING to 8v8 servers. 8v8 is fun for me much more than 5v5.

If anything, just clearly label for newer players which servers are 8v8 and which one is 5v5. The players that extremely hates 8v8 can play 5v5.

runeblade.7514:

DO NOT SHUT DOWN 8v8 SERVERS! There is a silent majority that loves 8v8.

Do absolutely NOTHING to 8v8 servers. 8v8 is fun for me much more than 5v5.

If anything, just clearly label for newer players which servers are 8v8 and which one is 5v5. The players that extremely hates 8v8 can play 5v5.

Oh yeah, that’s the other issue: when you list servers by maximum spots (players+spectators) instead of simply by maximum players, people have no idea which is which except by hovering over. It’s a terrible interface and you could probably double the pvp population just by getting someone with good UI experience to redesign the pvp window!

if 8v8 is zergy, what is WvWvW?

runeblade.7514:

Tyler Chapman.1832:

Israel.7056:

I don’t think 8v8 should be removed. Obviously it’s a game mode some people enjoy, myself included. If you don’t agree with my values then don’t play 8v8, simple as that. Play whatever makes you happy, let no one interfere.

If anything we need more game modes, let the players play what they want to play.

This paternalistic attitude of “what we want our youngsters to learn” is absurd. Let people decide for themselves what they want to learn. If you don’t agree with other people’s choices then keep it to yourself, no one needs anyone else’s permission to play this game as they see fit and I don’t see why they should.

It was simply a joke, I’m sure you’re fully capable of taking one. It’s a video game and we are simply attempting to provide the most quality experience we can for our players in game so they can play as they wish.

Anyways concerning the topic, there are players that impeded from getting better at our game and something we wish to do is help players understand how PvP works and help them get better if they do wish it so.

The decision on this topic has yet to be made. Either Josh or myself can give an update when a decision is made. However let me ask this, would you guys like to see less 8v8 servers? no 8v8 servers? Possibly re-work the play now so that it looks for 5v5 matches as priority?

DO NOT SHUT DOWN 8v8 SERVERS! There is a silent majority that loves 8v8.

Do absolutely NOTHING to 8v8 servers. 8v8 is fun for me much more than 5v5.

If anything, just clearly label for newer players which servers are 8v8 and which one is 5v5. The players that extremely hates 8v8 can play 5v5.

aye, exactly, at any given time, just look at the pvp game browser. for hotjoin games.

make 2 filters
8 vs 8
5 vs 8

now compare the amount of players in 8 vs 8 and 5 vs 5.
8 vs 8 will always have more players than 5 vs 5

the ones who are playing, enjoying 8 vs 8 are not coming to the forums to complain.
the ones who complains are those who had bad experience in solo arena and seeks to blame it on 8 vs 8 hotjoin servers.

Josh Davis.6015:

Hey folks,

Just to clarify – we don’t have any immediate plans to remove 8v8. Justin is looking to make changes so that servers prefer to be 5v5 rather than 8v8, but they wouldn’t be removed completely.

We may revisit that decision in the future, but for now, 8v8 is safe.

aaah thanks josh.

well i hope them 8v8 anet’s public hotjoin servers stay safe forever though.

It used to be Very fun in beta ! Hehe

I enjoy sometimes play with friends and just forget about capping and everybody just killing each other…

The pvp could be Very simple joining… It could have Solo arena unranked, this would be the standard mode where you could just join a 5 v 5 anytime.

Than we could have also Death matches , only for fun, make it a 10×10.

And custom arenas as it’s now… If you want, you just look in the list and join with your friends… Make some arenas 5v5 , 8v8 etc… I also feel that there are too many servers on the list, it’s difficult to find a room sometimes. We could have less servers and they would not be empty.

I trhink 8v8 is nice for people playing class or builds more geared towards party play instead of the individual ‘’i can do everything’’ thingie so much seen in 5v5. In 5v5 matches you see al lot of 1v1 and 2v2 fights which are not supported by arenanet balancewise (they always said they wanted to balance the game for groups and not for 1v1). This is imho partly responsible for the bad balance shift in game and the overuse of heavy classes that can tank, heal and dps instead of having nice group composition of builds geared towards playing together.

8v8 allows better tactical play and build mixing than 5v5 and should be encouraged for that reason by getting bigger maps with bigger cap points. Then we can finally enjoy PvP as it was meant to be played instead of this individualistic duel oriented play we see now. At the same time many balance problems will be solved by encouraging fun build mix in teams.

It’s fun to hear the devs claim 5 vs 5 is more fun then 8 vs 8. I guess i’m finally unravelling why anet is biased towards warriors.

Either way my 2 cents: Yes to 8 vs 8, no to 5 vs 5 (totally dull).

terminatorkobold.6031:

8v8 allows better tactical play and build mixing than 5v5[…]

Lol. No, it doesn’t.

Yes it does (see the nice argument…)

The argument is bad and shows a distinct lack of understanding most likely due to inexperience.

Please label 5v5 vs 8v8 hotjoin rooms better. Instead of “server 192” or whatever you could make it “5v5 anet hotjoin 192”

Also please separate the spectators from players on the server selection window.

I typically just use play now over an over again until I get a server that I want because the server selection window is poorly designed (have to hover over to get basic info like team size, can’t tell if the room is actually joinable or not b/c of how spectators display).

I’d be down for 8v8 being scrapped entirely. It does not promote anything productive when tpvp matches are 5v5. All the zerging belongs in WvW

Chicag Jack no need to attack me personnaly, it might be that we enjoy different playstyles and i think both should get some spotlight.

And i still think that 5v5 is responsible for the only tanky-dps builds allowed meta seen in pvp actually. There is no place for anything else in a 5 man team fighting for 3 spots.

I support a better separation for 5v5 and 8v8 in hotjoin with better labels. I also think that 8v8 should be allowed in tPvP matches if they implement bigger maps with bigger cap points (which would also help solving aoe spamfest and petfarms) or other gamemodes.

terminatorkobold.6031:

Chicag Jack no need to attack me personnaly

Suspecting a lack of experience is not attacking you personally – there is nothing wrong with it. You are certainly welcome to your opinion though, just don’t expect to garnish much attention from it.

There are no pros, only downside.

Yasha.5963:

There are no pros, only downside.

Pros: 8v8 is more fun than 5v5.

Remove 8v8 and you lose a playerbase that plays PvP for fun.

Yasha.5963:

There are no pros, only downside.

This is exactly why no dev can take the forums seriously.