Guild Wars 2

The (in)frequency of balance patches, updates, hot-fixes, whatever you want to call them.

I don’t get how we get balance patches so infrequently when balance is fundamental to our pvp experience. Look at other (successful) games. For the most part, you get hotfixes when there’s something game-breaking, minor changes every week or so, and a comprehensive balance patch every month or so.

Balance issues are going to happen, but with this setup they are putting themselves in a position where they have to get everything right the first time. And then when the next patch comes they’re stuck fixing prior issues on top of whatever they were planning to do. It’s literally an impossible task that leads to (predictably) inadequate results.

It’s incredibly poor, unprofessional, and inadequate. And it is beyond frustrating to witness when there is so much potential here.

/endrant.

naw i disagree.

HOT made ele a heal bot and 6 seasons later its a heal bot.

Warrior for 2 seasons was the worst class and then for 2 seasons the easiest class to play.

For patches would help the overall balance of the game but it wouldnt change build diversity, team comps, or create a competitive scene.

This is a PvE game and the game gets PvE patches, more PvE patches doesnt fix the game.

kdaddy.5431:

naw i disagree.

HOT made ele a heal bot and 6 seasons later its a heal bot.

Warrior for 2 seasons was the worst class and then for 2 seasons the easiest class to play.

For patches would help the overall balance of the game but it wouldnt change build diversity, team comps, or create a competitive scene.

This is a PvE game and the game gets PvE patches, more PvE patches doesnt fix the game.

How would more frequent PvE patches be bad for the game? We’re not asking for entire overhaul patches every month, just little changes. More frequent but minor changes is going to be far healthier for balance because they can be more precise. The way they’re doing it now is like guessing how much you need to cut something to make it fit into a space well, instead of using a ruler and marking where to cut for a cleaner fit.

PvE could benefit from more frequent patches also because going months on end with something like pre nerf ele is bad, plain and simple. With more frequent shaving nerfs instead of large nerfs, anet can perfect where ele dps should be. And if they need to take more time to figure out those changes in a way that won’t impact other game modes negatively, then they can wait for another patch. And there’s another advantage. If they need 4 months to figure out the proper change and to program it, then that’s 4 months of waiting. But every 3 months means that if it only takes 4 months to fix, then then they have to wait 6 months to ship it. That’s 2 unnecessary months of waiting.

So in the end, there’s less waiting for good changes with more frequent patches. Something that could be shipped out after a month now needs to be waited for by an extra 2 months. And it’s very easy for players to get bored of something in 2 months.

The low amount of patches and fixes is indeed a big problem. Anet has to revise their way of thinking about balance completely.

kdaddy.5431:

naw i disagree.

HOT made ele a heal bot and 6 seasons later its a heal bot.

Warrior for 2 seasons was the worst class and then for 2 seasons the easiest class to play.

For patches would help the overall balance of the game but it wouldnt change build diversity, team comps, or create a competitive scene.

This is a PvE game and the game gets PvE patches, more PvE patches doesnt fix the game.

In a way, your criticisms actually go towards my point, which is that the lack of adjustments has a critical impact on the game.

For example, using your example of the warrior, you stated that it was (essentially) under buffed and then over-buffed (assuming that makes it easiest to play). If they had been issuing weekly or bi-monthly balance adjustments, the process might have occurred over a few months, rather than over a few years.

Proper balance might actually allow other builds to work as originally intended, which in turn would address your concern regarding build diversity (since that would hopefully increase the number of viable builds), as well as team composition.

Zak.9106:

kdaddy.5431:

naw i disagree.

HOT made ele a heal bot and 6 seasons later its a heal bot.

Warrior for 2 seasons was the worst class and then for 2 seasons the easiest class to play.

For patches would help the overall balance of the game but it wouldnt change build diversity, team comps, or create a competitive scene.

This is a PvE game and the game gets PvE patches, more PvE patches doesnt fix the game.

In a way, your criticisms actually go towards my point, which is that the lack of adjustments has a critical impact on the game.

For example, using your example of the warrior, you stated that it was (essentially) under buffed and then over-buffed (assuming that makes it easiest to play). If they had been issuing weekly or bi-monthly balance adjustments, the process might have occurred over a few months, rather than over a few years.

Proper balance might actually allow other builds to work as originally intended, which in turn would address your concern regarding build diversity (since that would hopefully increase the number of viable builds), as well as team composition.

Like i said in my comment, more patches might work out the small kinks in the game.

But like i said, this is a PvE game and only when things are actually horrible do they change anything.

Helseth said in tea time that Grouch had to argue/ near force the meta change after S1.
The majority of people at Anet are not playing PvP, those who are even less of those people have the ability to change PvP.

When they balance things, the big important changes made effect PvE. So the biggest patches have had a impact on PvE therefore based around PvE potential. We just got a patch for PvP, so guess what this is the new meta. They might change 1-3 small things before what ever plan they have next but other then that. They are done, more frequent patches would help small things.

This is a PvE game, Mike Obrian said “if you WvW you probably PvE”. They are not worried about PvP.

The real reason, the only reason is the low pvp population compared to both pve AND wvw. MM is very flawed because of that reason and its why it will never get any better. It’s also why most balance patches so far have been centered around pve, it’s why ranked matchmaking is so frustrating, it’s why e-sports never worked for GW2, its basically the root of “evil”.

To have a healthy pvp game or mode in this case the most important thing is high numbers on playerbase, everything else will fit into place with time. Better balance, better mm system, more maps, separation between casual and competitive matches, separate solo q and party q so people can either solo against solo or join on groups of 2-5 on a separate q, better “competitive” rewards, thats right, u have to win it, not grind it and on and on and on.

So anet needs to desperately find a way to boost their pvp playerbase b4 they can make any actual progress.

sigh…

Frequency of balance is not the problem; the problem is scope of the changes.

HoT added a ton of power creep. ANet’s approach has been to make tiny changes to cooldowns or durations instead of re-working entire skills. And in many cases, they added more power creep to compete with the original HoT power creep. The result has been stale gameplay where you can spam and not be punished for it.

Frequency is not a issue. The issue is they are not understanding their PVP, they have no (PVP)dev play/test their PVP. Even in PVE, people all play condi now.
This shows two thing:
1. They are no dev do testing , even is a data analysis.
2. They do not have the ability to do it well
Anyways, When condi can stack and increase CC, block etc, they have made super wrong first step, This leads to a lot of balance problems. All thing be spam, All thing out of control, All build and skill be locked.
Powercreep + genius dev = your game 100% going to over.
Even god can not help you.

xeonage.1253:

Frequency is not a issue. The issue is they are not understanding their PVP, they have no (PVP)dev play/test their PVP. Even in PVE, people all play condi now.

People certainly aren’t using just conditions in PvP, if Metabattle is remotely accurate. Of the builds there rated 90+, 10 are power, 2 condi, 4 hybrid (with 5 of the 6 meta builds being power-based)…hardly a “condi meta.” The raid builds there are slightly more weighted toward conditions, but there’s still a pretty even mix. What is your ideal for condition prevalence, no condi build ever seeing play?

Unholy Pillager.3791:

xeonage.1253:

Frequency is not a issue. The issue is they are not understanding their PVP, they have no (PVP)dev play/test their PVP. Even in PVE, people all play condi now.

People certainly aren’t using just conditions in PvP, if Metabattle is remotely accurate. Of the builds there rated 90+, 10 are power, 2 condi, 4 hybrid (with 5 of the 6 meta builds being power-based)…hardly a “condi meta.” The raid builds there are slightly more weighted toward conditions, but there’s still a pretty even mix. What is your ideal for condition prevalence, no condi build ever seeing play?

The condi is useless when you have understanding from the PVP. There are too many AoE cleaning spam and we have a healing bot – ELE. But, condi is a hard killer for newbie, noone would learn everything (function of 14 kinds of condi , cleaning skill) when they join a game, when they pass a attack key then kill by himself or move then die, they will feel this is unfair and not fun. You can go to play Unranked and see what is call condi hell. How to make a pvp game that don’t let you attack and move? GW2 is. Anyway, population is everything. Condi can’t run well in high mmr and kill the new blood from the game. Seriously, I really want they would delete the condi system from the game.

HeadCrowned.6834:

The low amount of patches and fixes is indeed a big problem. Anet has to revise their way of thinking about balance completely.

Even the staff say that.
“Deadlines don’t mean anything, good for you if you’re always late because you won’t get any adverse action taken or be fired.”,
Current Employee – Anonymous Employee in Bellevue, WA (US)

Exedore.6320:

sigh…

Frequency of balance is not the problem; the problem is scope of the changes.

HoT added a ton of power creep. ANet’s approach has been to make tiny changes to cooldowns or durations instead of re-working entire skills. And in many cases, they added more power creep to compete with the original HoT power creep. The result has been stale gameplay where you can spam and not be punished for it.

why can’t it be both? why, can’t, it, be, both….
Tweak frequently, while fixing unused skills less often but often enough to mix things up.

kdaddy.5431:

This is a PvE game and the game gets PvE patches, more PvE patches doesnt fix the game.

For the first 3 years & pre-launch it was a PvP game (at least in regard to balance).

Wrong, achieving balance is not the objective of the patches, shifting the meta is.

zinkz.7045:

kdaddy.5431:

This is a PvE game and the game gets PvE patches, more PvE patches doesnt fix the game.

For the first 3 years & pre-launch it was a PvP game (at least in regard to balance).

Its still a pvp game, there is no denying that. I think its one of the only games that lets the player jump right into pvp without having to level up their character. That follows in the footsteps of the original gw.

However I do really believe that pve was gw2s primary focus. Gw was a pvp game first, pve was secondary. But then pve became more popular than pvp. But its like this in ALL mmos.

I don’t think more frequent balance patches would change anything, it didn’t change anything in the past when we had more frequent patches. I believe the solution would be to put the power in the players hands, similar to gw1. Give the players more traits and skills that can counter frequently used skills. That way it gives the players the power to change the meta instead of waiting for developers to do it.

This patch was great because they gave counters to classes for stealth. If they can continue this pattern with things like evade, block etc etc. Then we will see a much healthier game.

The irony here is PvP players blame PvE for imbalances and PvE players blame PvP players for their imbalances.

If only we had skill splits amiright?

Here are 2 ways you can fix pvp without having to patch to hell.

1) Remove the worst style of pvp known to pvp aka Circle dancing. Go back to Gw1 Kill or be killed stomp pvp.

and or

2) Make it a 2 class system like gw1 where you have more access to options to play with. Maybe a necro/mes gets necro traits and skill but only mes skill or skills and traits for more diversity.

Option #2 will also make pve more enjoyable.

P.s Option 3 would be to remove bow #5 and make it a non transport skill on teefs.

Every known game for competitive pvp gets regular patches every 2 weeks in average, so that makes sense in the end.

Problem is in this regard, that even if we would get more frequent patches, I suppose the balance team still finds potential in order to make it even worse. Currently the state of this mode is unenjoyable for me. Too much invulnerabilities and blocks, too much AoE spam and way too much conditions at the same time. One bad cleanse or stunbreak and you receive 10 stacks of burn, 10 stacks of torment, some slow to spice it up combined with a shackle and you can only watch yourself melting while being unable to move.

I mean, of course there’s counterplay for that. But it’s just not fun anymore.

The game is constantly in BETA. They do one patch every quarter at best and then don’t even tweak it during the month offseason for obvious problems. Then…after the season…they make huge changes again and the cycle repeats. It would be comical if this were presented as a case study of how NOT to do things, but it’s actually sad because they just never learn better.

Even if scope is the true issue. We still should be getting more frequent updates so that we can at least move towards good balance… As opposed to 1 big patch with awful balance that we have to live with for the rest of the season.

I get not wanting to do knee-jerk reactions. But I’d prefer 5 changes even if having to revert some of them, vs a dry spell with the same imbalances running around. Anyone can have the attitude of “just adapt”, and sure you can get good at a bad game. But as long as the game is permanently imbalanced because the devs are to scared, green, lazy, or have to yield to company politics to make progress, it will forever be a dwindling scene riding on the coat tails of a PvE game until A-net gets permanent members to work on PvP balance… That isn’t like one or two guys who are biased.

Zintrothen.1056:

kdaddy.5431:

naw i disagree.

HOT made ele a heal bot and 6 seasons later its a heal bot.

Warrior for 2 seasons was the worst class and then for 2 seasons the easiest class to play.

For patches would help the overall balance of the game but it wouldnt change build diversity, team comps, or create a competitive scene.

This is a PvE game and the game gets PvE patches, more PvE patches doesnt fix the game.

How would more frequent PvE patches be bad for the game? We’re not asking for entire overhaul patches every month, just little changes. More frequent but minor changes is going to be far healthier for balance because they can be more precise. The way they’re doing it now is like guessing how much you need to cut something to make it fit into a space well, instead of using a ruler and marking where to cut for a cleaner fit.

PvE could benefit from more frequent patches also because going months on end with something like pre nerf ele is bad, plain and simple. With more frequent shaving nerfs instead of large nerfs, anet can perfect where ele dps should be. And if they need to take more time to figure out those changes in a way that won’t impact other game modes negatively, then they can wait for another patch. And there’s another advantage. If they need 4 months to figure out the proper change and to program it, then that’s 4 months of waiting. But every 3 months means that if it only takes 4 months to fix, then then they have to wait 6 months to ship it. That’s 2 unnecessary months of waiting.

So in the end, there’s less waiting for good changes with more frequent patches. Something that could be shipped out after a month now needs to be waited for by an extra 2 months. And it’s very easy for players to get bored of something in 2 months.

pve dont need balance, high end pve need that clases can fill eficiently their roles
pve dont need frequent patches, frequent patches are bad for pve, equiping toons for pve has a cost, players that do high end pve (top fractals and raids) want/need the most proficient builds and shaking the “meta” often( also a minor change can make some builds/classes be prefered to others for groups of high end pve) is bad for them(players that do open world content use watever they want, including nomad)

that is the reason pvp need a complete skill split, cuz pvp need frequent skill patches and a balancig phillosophy behind them

SPESHAL.9106:

The game is constantly in BETA. They do one patch every quarter at best and then don’t even tweak it during the month offseason for obvious problems. Then…after the season…they make huge changes again and the cycle repeats. It would be comical if this were presented as a case study of how NOT to do things, but it’s actually sad because they just never learn better.

Very well put

zinkz.7045:

kdaddy.5431:

This is a PvE game and the game gets PvE patches, more PvE patches doesnt fix the game.

For the first 3 years & pre-launch it was a PvP game (at least in regard to balance).

I could argue that since passive play like Spirit Ranger was the best build and Turret engy were really strong.

Also the guardian Tomes were removed simply because they didnt want to balance it.

I think we can both agree that simply the game was better Pre HOT.

megilandil.7506:

Zintrothen.1056:

kdaddy.5431:

naw i disagree.

HOT made ele a heal bot and 6 seasons later its a heal bot.

Warrior for 2 seasons was the worst class and then for 2 seasons the easiest class to play.

For patches would help the overall balance of the game but it wouldnt change build diversity, team comps, or create a competitive scene.

This is a PvE game and the game gets PvE patches, more PvE patches doesnt fix the game.

How would more frequent PvE patches be bad for the game? We’re not asking for entire overhaul patches every month, just little changes. More frequent but minor changes is going to be far healthier for balance because they can be more precise. The way they’re doing it now is like guessing how much you need to cut something to make it fit into a space well, instead of using a ruler and marking where to cut for a cleaner fit.

PvE could benefit from more frequent patches also because going months on end with something like pre nerf ele is bad, plain and simple. With more frequent shaving nerfs instead of large nerfs, anet can perfect where ele dps should be. And if they need to take more time to figure out those changes in a way that won’t impact other game modes negatively, then they can wait for another patch. And there’s another advantage. If they need 4 months to figure out the proper change and to program it, then that’s 4 months of waiting. But every 3 months means that if it only takes 4 months to fix, then then they have to wait 6 months to ship it. That’s 2 unnecessary months of waiting.

So in the end, there’s less waiting for good changes with more frequent patches. Something that could be shipped out after a month now needs to be waited for by an extra 2 months. And it’s very easy for players to get bored of something in 2 months.

pve dont need balance, high end pve need that clases can fill eficiently their roles
pve dont need frequent patches, frequent patches are bad for pve, equiping toons for pve has a cost, players that do high end pve (top fractals and raids) want/need the most proficient builds and shaking the “meta” often( also a minor change can make some builds/classes be prefered to others for groups of high end pve) is bad for them(players that do open world content use watever they want, including nomad)

that is the reason pvp need a complete skill split, cuz pvp need frequent skill patches and a balancig phillosophy behind them

Skill split aside

HOT was selling hard raid missions. GW2 was now gonna deliver raid missions for the hardcore PvE player with more difficult maps.

For what ever reason Anet decided raids needed to be role based and Time Based.

Because of that the speed of GW2 went up 500%. I use to play staff condi mesmer, it wasnt as good kittenter but i would win any 1 vs 1 with moa which let me have side node action with portal.

I usually had 1-2 utility skills needed to set up the condi burst and wait for 40 sec.

Now it takes 15 sec to run the meta condi/bunker mesmer to do the same amount of damage. I also did not have the stun breaks or ability to F5 to change that 15 sec CD into 2 sec. As well as giving mesmer a shield.

For me just looking at the pre HOT game play and current, its 2 completely different game styles.

What was the big change? Like you said PvE doesnt really need changes, IMO PvP doesnt need alot of changes when build diversity and team comp variations are available.

It was raids, the meta maps in HOT can be done without Elite Specs raids on the other can not. Your getting groups and vids of 5 man group vs X and 7 man group vs X. When they find a glitch/bug with a raid boss, imo Anet nerfed Ghost Thief because he solo sloth.

The game is balanced for raids and the Devs dont care for PvP and PvE which is why split balance wont be in the future.

Ziggityzog.7389:

Here are 2 ways you can fix pvp without having to patch to hell.

1) Remove the worst style of pvp known to pvp aka Circle dancing. Go back to Gw1 Kill or be killed stomp pvp.

and or

2) Make it a 2 class system like gw1 where you have more access to options to play with. Maybe a necro/mes gets necro traits and skill but only mes skill or skills and traits for more diversity.

Option #2 will also make pve more enjoyable.

P.s Option 3 would be to remove bow #5 and make it a non transport skill on teefs.

LOL your posts are so funny,

1- Nothing is wrong with conquest. If you go back and watch the WTS’s or the Pro Leagues, alot of people are dying in the paths because you dont simply just fight around the circle.

2- This isnt GW1, GW1 had its day but it has become a old style of fighting game play. Like Street Fighter 2 or Virtual Fighter. Alot of us probably love those games but like everyone else you move on.

3- Im not sure about this

We need regular skill addition updates/class updates at least as frequent as seen in LoL players only play a game as long as there is something better to look forward too.

The misconception of better 1 vs1 balance vs 5 vs 5 balance or vice versa needs to end. We need both 1 vs 1 and 5vs5 balance coming in as fast as the updates in LoL/other esports or faster.

If this is not possible pvp should be reverted to casual because they cannot keep up with other esports that are better at giving players something to look forward too with regular content updates and balance fixes. Other esports don’t just have fast balancing they may release more abilities/champions 4 times or more a year. These updates likely should require cash shop elements.