Guild Wars 2

As we all know (or should know) condi is broken in pvp right now. Aside from the issue that every spec utilizing condi has some way to spam condi bursts (needs to be changed) there are some VERY large factors that contribute to the current issue of conditions.

1) Freestacking conditions:
That was one of the single worst changes to ever allow in pvp. Allowing every condi to stack to ridiculous amounts in pvp broke condi builds. Yes, in pve it was nice so there’d be some diversity but this isn’t pve, degeneration builds are supposed to degenerate you, not disintegrate you. Coupled with the copious amount of cc and defensive cooldowns every condi build has just makes this kittenous problem.

Solution to #1:
Split pvp and pve condition stacking abilities. Revert pvp to the old system where only a few conditions were stackable and then if necessary look into slightly reducing the damage those conditions deal.

2) Ability to influence duration:
Allowing people to influence the duration of their conditions made balancing them impossible. There are too many extremes now to consider when tweaking numbers when you also have to account for all the possible duration increases that could be seen. Same goes for boons but that’s for a different post.

Solution to #2:
Remove the “expertise” and “concentration” stats from the game. It’s broken and it causes too many balance issues. Condis can then have base durations increased if necessary to allow DoT to still be a playstyle but then we will not have the monstrosity that is condi currently. Duration should never have been played with in stats. Runes I can understand because they are meant to upgrade your build and generally only influence 1 condi heavily but gear does all of them and only breaks any sort of balance that had been there beforehand.

With these problems being solved there would be a significant improvement in balance as DoT builds could still exist and function without dominating the game. Summary: Condi stacking is okay as it ramps up DoT but condi burst spamming is bad because it does tons of damage without sacrifice.

Add more condi cleanse problem solve condi is ok but the lack of cleanse is what make them see op

That’s powercreep. the point isn’t to just keep buffing until everything is op, you want to take down things that are op so that you achieve a balance rather than an arms race.

Freestacking was so that long-acting condis (necro utilities, etc) weren’t overlaid with short-term reapply condis (engi pistol AA). Reverting that change would be awful.

Secondly, balancing around expertise is actually a better option as it means that condi builds start having more than one stat influencing their potential damage-similar to the power/prec/fer triad for power builds.

The real reason why condi seems out of hand is because of the insane condi coverages.

Reason burn guard is worthless is because we sacrifice sustains to have Warrior damage potential… we had the sustains prepatch back when stability & stunbreaks weren’t needed. We also didn’t have any condi coverages so we were actually balanced.

Reason Condi War is good is because they have a more 1v1 centered burst as oppose to guard’s aoe, coupled with having condi coverages like bleeds that also does huge damage, coupled with the tools they have to survive in a team setting to rinse & repeat.

Reason Condi Necros are good, they’re the new burn guardian, able to deliver lots of AoE burst condis team wide which also complements Warriors greatly.

Oh your 3 cleanse ability cleared Cripple, Poison & Vulnerability? You’re still taking 3k ticks of Burns + Bleeds + Chill damages. Darn the luck…

Disagree with #1, Agree with #2

1. Reverting to Old Condition System
This isn’t needed. The new “everything stacks” system is fine. The problem was how abilities were converted to the new system. In many cases, ANet added extra stacks instead of increasing durations. By chaining those abilities, conditions could deal heavy damage in a short time – something an attrition playstyle should not be able to do without significant setup.
The easy fix is to re-balance the handful of abilities which apply many stacks quickly by making them apply fewer stacks which last longer. PvE should be mostly fine with this – only trash mobs clears would be heavily affected.

2. Remove +Duration Stats
Agree here. Limit duration increases to traits and runes/sigils. First, this allows ANet to target damage vs. control conditions separately. Second, it caps the amount of duration increase that can be obtained and allows for more balance through mutual exclusion.

If you get this under control, you can probably remove some of the excessive condition counters which came about because of the arms race.

Personally I think if there is an issue, it simply comes down to numbers: cool down, amount of stacks and duration; there are plenty of condition skills that are actually pretty weak. If you think about it, the only classes that have strong condition builds are warrior, mesmer and necro. That is 33%. Everything else is better off with power in pvp and the difference between condition and power warrior isn’t too big I’d guess (not sure though as I don’t play warrior). I am pretty sure the current condition classes would also prefer power if they had the option, but power nec is terrible ever since and power mes is inferior to condition mes in every aspect.

SolarDragon.7063:

Secondly, balancing around expertise is actually a better option as it means that condi builds start having more than one stat influencing their potential damage-similar to the power/prec/fer triad for power builds.

I like this. Balancing around Expertise and Condition Damage (Precision as well for "on crit traits/sigils) will bring things closer to being manageable. Maybe trimming base condi duration in general would be a good start to really make Expertise a worthwhile investment over an additive bonus.

1 – Separate balance from sPvP from the rest of the game.
2 – Go from there.

This is probably the best since changing things too much regarding condi damage would break the balance in other parts of the game.

The sooner you get “Condi builds should only deal damage slowly over time cause that’s how it is in every other game I play” out of your heads the better this will all be. Condi builds are just an alternative to applying the same damage power builds already do. People just have it in their heads that condies in this game should work like they do in other games, which is incorrect.

At least with condi builds I get the chance to cleanse the condies and prevent the damage done unlike power damage. If a specific condi build is over-performing, then balance that build. It’s like saying all power damage should be nerfed because some thief got a high crit on you.

P.S. – This whole thread could’ve been avoided had someone done a simple google search for one of the other 1000 threads on this topic.

I think condi damage is ok, it’s just that as Saiyan said, you’re ducked if your cleanse rng clears the stuff that isn’t killing you. The way I see it, the issue it’s just how many different types of conditions can be applied in such a short space of time compared to the relative cooldowns of the abilities that can remove enough of them to matter.

Euthymias.7984:

SolarDragon.7063:

Secondly, balancing around expertise is actually a better option as it means that condi builds start having more than one stat influencing their potential damage-similar to the power/prec/fer triad for power builds.

I like this. Balancing around Expertise and Condition Damage (Precision as well for "on crit traits/sigils) will bring things closer to being manageable. Maybe trimming base condi duration in general would be a good start to really make Expertise a worthwhile investment over an additive bonus.

I see your point. I’d actually be all for the forced investment into expertise but only if condi duration is nerfed beforehand. The way it is now, expertise is allowing conditions to stack for ridiculous amounts of time which is why I proposed the removal of the stat. But if they do take the proper steps to set up for it I could see expertise as a good stat to have in game.

Shaogin.2679:

The sooner you get “Condi builds should only deal damage slowly over time cause that’s how it is in every other game I play” out of your heads the better this will all be. Condi builds are just an alternative to applying the same damage power builds already do. People just have it in their heads that condies in this game should work like they do in other games, which is incorrect.

At least with condi builds I get the chance to cleanse the condies and prevent the damage done unlike power damage. If a specific condi build is over-performing, then balance that build. It’s like saying all power damage should be nerfed because some thief got a high crit on you.

P.S. – This whole thread could’ve been avoided had someone done a simple google search for one of the other 1000 threads on this topic.

The problem with the whole “It should work like other games” argument is…well, those are at least mostly balanced.

One of the big draws of condi is it’s fire and forget—you can drop some on a guy and run for it and it will still kill/maim/otherwise incapacitate him while you’re doing something else (either killing another guy or running for your life). That’s something power classes don’t get—they have to invest in their targets from start to finish. Since currently sPVP is all about survival/sustain, they get an “unfair advantage” in that condi is significantly easier to play at a competent level.

The other big aspect of condi is the overly large AoE’s many of them have—I personally believe no AoE should be so large as to cover an entire cap point with extra to spare, ESPECIALLY not traps, since they don’t require the caster to be even remotely close to them to work. Yes, I know someone will point out you have to be particularly stupid to walk blindly into a ton of traps on a point, but often times you don’t have a choice—either avoid the traps and not cap the point (since they cover the entire point) or trigger the traps to get on the point.

The reason conditions are OP is because once they are applied there is nothing you can do and if you are lucky enough to have a cleanse, they can be applied more often then cleansed.

Conditions don’t require active play on the part of the person that has applied them – they are free to run/evade/hide while the person being targeted has no way to avoid them.

The power of conditions is another example of the incompetence of the balance team…

What are you guys talking about. Condi is fire and forget but power isn’t? You get hit by a condi attack, it deals its damage over a period of time. You get hit by a power attack, it does its damage all at once. If anything, power damage is hit and forget. Like how a thief can jump someone, deal damage, stealth and reset, then come back to deal more damage.

And not being able to do anything when you have condis on you? Bring cleanses. If you happen to run a class with pathetic cleanses (Mesmer maybe and not sure who else) then that is a balance issue that should be addressed. But again, when I get hit by a power attack there is truly nothing I can do there. The damage is done, the health is gone. If someone hits me with condis, depending on your class, you can cleanse them or convert them or use resistance. This means the bulk of that condi damage can be negated.

You should not be able to cleanse every single condi on you all the time, that would destroy condi builds. You can avoid conditions being applied on you the same way you avoid direct damage. You have to be hit to get condis on you, same as power damage. Power builds in no way require any more skill than condi builds.

If you guys wanna argue that certain classes need better condi cleanse options then sure, makes sense. But using these same old arguments that have been proven false time and time again makes this look like nothing more than another condi qq thread, and nobody is gonna take that seriously.

Shaogin what are u talking about. Most power builds have to get up close & personal for them to do their dmg while their target has plenty of tools to negate that dmg. A condi person can fire from the safety of his/her living room, stack 4-5 condi’s on u, go grab a cola from the frig come back to watch u bleed out.

Also did u forget that some condi abilities apply direct dmg as well?
Conditions are out of control & need a rework in pvp & I hope the devs have a good brainstorming meeting to address it.

Hannibal.5739:

Shaogin what are u talking about. Most power builds have to get up close & personal for them to do their dmg while their target has plenty of tools to negate that dmg. A condi person can fire from the safety of his/her living room, stack 4-5 condi’s on u, go grab a cola from the frig come back to watch u bleed out.

Also did u forget that some condi abilities apply direct dmg as well?
Conditions are out of control & need a rework in pvp & I hope the devs have a good brainstorming meeting to address it.

Wow…….just…….wow. First off, there are ranged power builds just as there are ranged condi builds. That makes no sense. And if you don’t cleanse those measly 4-5 condis in the time it took for that guy to grab a soda, you deserve to die to those condis.

And, just to clear up this real quick, you do realize that by saying there are condi abilities that apply direct damage, then you are also acknowledging that there are power abilities that apply condis as well. Are hybrid builds a bad thing now too…..I mean….just….wha…..?

If you guys expect to get some dev attention and have changes made, you’re gonna have to step it up.

You seem like you’re looking for a fight so I’ll try to make this as delicate and non offensive as possible.

To start, yes there are ranged power builds but the difference between ranged power and condi atm is almost every ranged power builds is projectile based while almost every ranged condi build is field/aoe based. Take condi necro for example, they have 1 projectile on their entire build so they aren’t at all countered by things like reflect while say a dragonhunter or ranger with lb are hard countered by the massive amounts of reflect present in the game atm. The issue that comes from this is that ranged condi is literally the safest type of build you can play in this game, you can’t be melee’d if you are smart enough to use the skills to keep opponents off you and you can’t be countered by projectile reflect or other ranged defenses. It takes more skill on a power build to time bursts through reflect than it it does to just spam condi without a care in the world.

Now to address why conditions need to be changed. Condi was introduced as the DoT style for GW2 back when the game came out and it was maintained up until the freestacking change when condis got a massive buff to their damage. Now conditions act as a safe burst. You can’t cleanse enough to keep up with the insane pressure and because those builds often come with heavy cc and tanking abilities you can’t just burst them out. All that needs to happen is a damage reduction to the conditions in the game to give them a more attrition based type of play that excels at drawing out fights and draining the enemy slowly until they succumb to your pressure. Right now it’s “kill your enemy in a matter of seconds while you remain extremely tanky and have loads of defensive cooldowns”.

There are multiple changes that have to happen in order to achieve balance in the game and condi changes are part of it. If you continue to falsely believe that condi is completely 100% balanced and in need of 0 changes then frankly, you are wrong and need to discontinue your posting on these forums or learn some concept of balance before you speak on it.

There are a handful of builds which stack conditions too quickly for little effort. If it required more setup, it wouldn’t be so much of a problem.

Power builds typically doesn’t have these problems as the setup is more obvious or harder to pull off.

Ranged or not/projectile or not has absolutely nothing to do with condi or power. Most condi builds need to get close to apply the majority of their pressure. Many condi builds’ ranged attacks are projectile based. And so on … It is always class/build specific, not a general thing.

Edit: No build that need setup to land their dmg or has it hard to pull off the dmg is viable. Because there is too much spammable and passive defense in the game. So you need spammable dmg. Doesn’t really matter if it is power or condi.

Ario.8964:

You seem like you’re looking for a fight so I’ll try to make this as delicate and non offensive as possible.

To start, yes there are ranged power builds but the difference between ranged power and condi atm is almost every ranged power builds is projectile based while almost every ranged condi build is field/aoe based. Take condi necro for example, they have 1 projectile on their entire build so they aren’t at all countered by things like reflect while say a dragonhunter or ranger with lb are hard countered by the massive amounts of reflect present in the game atm. The issue that comes from this is that ranged condi is literally the safest type of build you can play in this game, you can’t be melee’d if you are smart enough to use the skills to keep opponents off you and you can’t be countered by projectile reflect or other ranged defenses. It takes more skill on a power build to time bursts through reflect than it it does to just spam condi without a care in the world.

Now to address why conditions need to be changed. Condi was introduced as the DoT style for GW2 back when the game came out and it was maintained up until the freestacking change when condis got a massive buff to their damage. Now conditions act as a safe burst. You can’t cleanse enough to keep up with the insane pressure and because those builds often come with heavy cc and tanking abilities you can’t just burst them out. All that needs to happen is a damage reduction to the conditions in the game to give them a more attrition based type of play that excels at drawing out fights and draining the enemy slowly until they succumb to your pressure. Right now it’s “kill your enemy in a matter of seconds while you remain extremely tanky and have loads of defensive cooldowns”.

There are multiple changes that have to happen in order to achieve balance in the game and condi changes are part of it. If you continue to falsely believe that condi is completely 100% balanced and in need of 0 changes then frankly, you are wrong and need to discontinue your posting on these forums or learn some concept of balance before you speak on it.

Looking for a fight on a game forum? That’s just childish man.

First off, not every ranged condi build is based around non-projectiles. Let’s take the Engineer as an example. It is a very projectile based condi build, suffers from the very same projectile issues. What you have a problem with here isn’t condi damage, but projectile hate in general. Also, while Necro may lack projectiles, it is also extremely reliant on proper positioning in a fight or else they are easily burst down…….by power builds in fact.

Also, claiming that power builds require more skill than condi builds in general is laughable. Well actually, saying that any build requires some great skill is laughable, but not the point. I’ve played power Scrapper quite a bit, much much easier than my condi Reaper. Hardly ever have any issues fighting condi builds on my Scrapper, cause I know when to use my cleanses and when to save em. Also I don’t have to worry about my positioning so much, I can just jump in a fight as I please. You wanna say that it is harder to play a projectile based build more than a non-projectile based build in the current meta, then sure I agree with you. Alot of projectile hate going around. But that has nothing to do with condi vs power.

You talk about condi builds being tanky and doing damage? Pretty sure I’ve seen constant complaints about Scrapper doing the exact same thing on a power build. Again, this isn’t a condi issue, this is a build issue. If a build is broken, fix the build. Currently in the meta we have three condi damage builds, three power damage builds, and two support builds. Poor, Guardians, they need some love. Anyways, point is, balance the professions instead of nerfing condi damage for professions that already can’t use it well.

Also, at some point everyone is going have to accept that condi damage is just an alternative to power damage in this game. The majority of this game does not support the slow attrition based style of condi damage that exists in other games, and is also part of the reason why Anet made the condition damage changes in the first place. You avoid condi damage with the exact same tools you avoid power damage with, and in addition to that each damage source has additional methods of avoiding/mitigating it.

So again, condi damage is not your problem. Your problem is some builds that have too much access to condi application, and some builds that lack sufficient condi management. Just as some power builds have too much survival and other builds lack sufficient disengages. Fix the professions and stop blaming condi damage for everything.

Oh and fyi I’ll speak as I wish on these forums, thank you. ;-P

Let me summarize the thread:

OP: Condi dmg builds are too strong, nerf it.
Rebuttal: Power builds are just as OP as condi, don’t nerf condi.

Truth: “Meta” power builds and condi builds are both OP and both need nerfed.

I find condis to be in a good spot(damage- and annoyancewise). It just bothers me that everyone needs to run tons of condi cleanses, like any meta build does. Well, thief and rev not, but they have other options to avoid the hits.
Also there is lots of aoe cleanses in the meta. An ele for example plus personal cleanses on your team, like in any usual meta comp, should´nt have that much problems with condis.

Exedore.6320:

Let me summarize the thread:

OP: Condi dmg builds are too strong, nerf it.
Rebuttal: Power builds are just as OP as condi, don’t nerf condi.

Truth: “Meta” power builds and condi builds are both OP and both need nerfed.

Well actually your Truth there was included in the rebuttal, but yeah that’s basically it. Pretty much how every one of these condi threads turn out.

Nice idea spit condi balance between pvp, pve and wvw.
As a condi player i can easily kill someone in pvp, do not a lof a damage and burst condi in pve and i m near useless in wvw.

Yeah, there’s not enough skills, traits, sigils, runes that remove/convert/transfer/reduce conditions in this game…
-73 skills to do that, 35 of them also affect your allies.
-34 traits that remove/transfer/convert conditions for you and7or your allies, and a lot of them make a entire set of skills able to clean conditions, increasing by a lot your chance to fight against a condition class
-3 sigils
-7 runes; shout+elite to clean condi and others to reduce condi duration (lesser condi duration = lesser damage)
-Combo Field with light Field. Not everyone know or use that combo but is really good to clean condi aoe, expecially with GS Guardian 5+2 combo. But yes, for other classes is really hard to use that combo or syncronize with a specific field to do that combo instead of another one during a fight.
-5 invulnerable skill (invulenrable to any attack not only condition)
-Resistance (A Boon made specifically to totally Counter conditiond, both damage and cc). It can be converted, ok, but it’s still a OP boon against a condi class! And facing a overbuffed class, corrupt resistance can be a luck more than an aimed skill

Then there’s all the skills that block, blind, dodge, stun, daze, fear, that make you unable to stack your conditions. Why yes, a condition inflict damage in time also if you don’t do anything to stack more, but to do high damage and mantain that damage you have to hit the enemy, if you can’t you don’t inflict damage.

There’s a LARGE amount of things that counter conditions, half of that AoE.

There’s different reasons why condis now are dangerous than before: (not for bad or good, only reasons)

1) Also Condi classes/builds wants to kill someone!
That can be ridicolous but 90% of who ask to nerf condi is not why they’re OP but why a Condition build killed them and they still think that a condi build had not to be able to kill someone! There’s still someone thinking that in that game Conditions (old DoT skills for who came from otehr games) are a mere funny thing to play with and don’t have to be dangerous why, ehy, they’re conditions, no one have to be able to kill you with bleed, don’t you think?
But ANet chose (wisely, for one time in they’re life) to make condi able to kill someone. That add a large amount of builds, barely double it, in PvP.
Seriously: if a coindi class was not able to kill someone but only to survive a little longer who will ever play it? That’s why Conditions Can Kill You! increase Build Diversity and Playstyle Diversity! Now we don’t only see power builds in PvP (like in www) but also a lot of Condition Builds, and that is really really good.

2) Dragonhunter and lasy condi cleaners
Yes, that Elite Specializzation made different problems at the start of HoT and still is a big one for who want to fight against condi builds. Why? Why no one ever use the Support Guardian! i’ve a friend that play the DH with a new version of the old bunker guardian and his team have not a single problem against condi teams why he clean a large amount of cinditions from his allies and then they clean what he’s unable to clean. bu8t now how many play a bunker guardian to clean conditions? Back in time when the Burn Guardian was “OP” I was one of the Op team but I can say that if the enemy team had a good bunker guardian I was totally useless in mid. Totally useless. I stacked up my burn, the guard shouted and all my damage was reduced to 0-20%. 2 condi cleaned/converted every shout, a really strong build (expecially now with the elite shout, if you want to try).
Now there’s the Druid that clean conditions wery well with the Celestial thing, but no one want one in team why isn’t one of the “meta” classes. There’s the Ele/Tempest but it’s not strong enough to clean conditions as the Bunker Guardian is. Sometimes a Necro with the signet do better than a tempest or a druid, but always worst than the guardian. (you’re team is full of condi? “Save Yourselve!” and all is clean like never before! With one more shout, just to keep the guardian alive XD)
Then a big problem is the lack of classes that can counter condi builds while the other players to the work.
Do you want to fight conditions in a team based and structured PvP? make a team that can do that!

3) Mesmer, Necro, Warrior, 3 classes over 9 that use conditions and everyone scream “conditions OP” everywhere.
Yes, they’re really strong, sometimes OP, but with a decent team you can face them without all that troubles. They’re strong, they can Burst you down, they can corrupt your boons and make you scream in rage why you still think that condis have only to be a low % of the total damage and don’t have to kill you, but they’re strong and you have to face it. Nothing more.
Learn to fight them, make a build able to do it (don’t look only on metabattle, make one by your own!), make a team able to fight condi classes (also with the same money if you need, sending back a lot of condis if you need to) and have fun!
The warrior can burst with condi, clean the first 2 waves of condi and you’re ready to kill him. The reaper have 2 or 3 skills to inflict good condi damage, all the other things is corruption and condi that he sent back to you; learn how to fight him and win. The mesmer is a class I’ve never learned to fight, find someone able to do that that can teach you how to kill one XD

4) At last there’s a large amount of condi abuse, but not all the condis that you see are damaging conditions. A lot of them are CC conditions or debilitating conditions, that make you vulenrable to enemy attacks. Not only Condi builds use conditions. a large amount of direct damage builds (6 over 9 classes of that game!) use conditions like immobilize, cripple, daze, stun, fear, weakness, vulnerability, blind, all things that you see on your screen and immediatly appear to be condition damage if mixed with some bleed, poison or others, but frequently what kill you in a team fight is still the Direct Damage, not the condition damage.
If you go in Mid and die in a second at 70% the enemy take you down with direct damage. if the enemy team is full of condi classes and don’t have any direct damage build, then simply insist to clean conditions and if you die remember that there’s 3-4 players focusing you to take you down! if direct or condition damage it’s alswya Damage and you can’t pretend to survive a focus only why it’s condition and not full direct damage.
But anyway the damage that killed you fast (10 sec of focus for example) in a team fight against a mixed team is at 70% direct damage.
rememember also that condi classes frequently use Carrion to inflict also Direct damage. A Reaper, for example, will inflict more or less 30% lesser damage without the Power of the Carrion amulet.

There’s a large amount of things that counter Conditions and some things that help Conditions.

Actually i think that Condition damage is fine, there’s only few balances to take up or down but nothing really drastic to do.

if you find hard to fight a condition class try another build, another class or, better, another team strategy.
That game is made for 5vs5 not 1vs1, play in team and win.
if you play a team based game as a pug that always hope to find the best team to win, you have not to ask for a nerf or a change. if you’re a player that play that teambased pvp a little more seriously, try with your friend another team strategy and see how it work, if you’ve so much issue against condi classes. And remember that Condi and Direct are both source of damage and they both can kill you, no matter what you want or think, they’re barely equal (but Power is still better than condi, stay happy!).

Teamplay is the key of the success!

Exedore.6320:

Let me summarize the thread:

OP: Condi dmg builds are too strong, nerf it.
Rebuttal: Power builds are just as OP as condi, don’t nerf condi.

Truth: “Meta” power builds and condi builds are both OP and both need nerfed.

Not saying there aren’t issues on both sides of the spectrum. There’s plenty of op stuff on power builds but it isn’t an issue with the way power works. My intent was to point out that it isn’t only an issue with the specific builds using condi that makes them too strong, it’s partially the way condi functions.

I agree with your truth statement but we aren’t discussing balance on power builds in this thread, we are discussing balance of condi builds so let’s stay on topic.

This is why condi is out of hand: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtZFok_D_TI

Essentially, power creep. That skill was originally designed to inflict 2 conditions – chill and poison.

I mus be behind on the times….
When did condi build (Condi Necro specifially) become OP?
Last time I played PvP on a regular basis, Condi necro was a weak joke. I literally got laughed at by people when I told them I played condi necro in PvP….

Zefrost.3425:

This is why condi is out of hand: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtZFok_D_TI

Essentially, power creep. That skill was originally designed to inflict 2 conditions – chill and poison.

Yes…. BUT… that’s caused by 1 sigil and 4 traits. You also have Spite and Curses, which means you have no Soul Reaping as a Reaper… which means you’re fairly squishy…. and that damage was before the chill nerf! :P The chill damage would have been turned into 2 extra bleeds now.

But yeah.. I agree that’s a whole lot of condis from just one button. On top of Wanderer amulet… nasty.

There are plenty of ways to counter condi. You know whats actually OP? Permastun warriors.

The reason why condition are out of hands is not that expertise or high stackable condi exist, but the fact that every skill apply multiple condies, every farth proc trait rune the player does inflict condis, in a way that actualy condis are getting the highest numbers of players kills even in the top leagues.
So the problem is not their dmg or their duration, but the spam coming out from every aoe/autoattack/ rune/trait proc wich havent been balanced accordly to the stackable patch of june 2015.

Conditions are OK itself.

If some classes able to spam them too much it’s not a big problem alone.

For example reaper is not a big problem. At least not too high armor. And not condy immune.

But if the class able to spam a lot of heavy conditions, has high survivability, has health regen, has high armor, able to be condy immun, able to interrupt very often, then… you know who is it:
Warrior.

Must be nerfed, one class should not have so much of everething.

Tool-tips can calculate how much (potential) damage a condition is going to do factoring in stacks and duration. That leads me to believe that they could change condi cleanse mechanics to clear the highest priority (most damaging) condi’s first. Might really help things, might potentially end up breaking things in the other direction. Either way it would require testing.

People are really over-estimating the effectiveness of condition duration in pvp.

I posted it before… reducing cooldown of purity sigil is all that is needed.

IMO condi builds need to add more “offensive” stats so they will need to put less stats on defense. They can be very tanky and also have the ability to condi burst which is not available for most power builds.

Remove expertise and lower overall condition damage. Allow conditions to crit. That way non offensive condi builds can still be tanky but deal less damage and people can still condi burst if they choose do take precision for it.

Brokensunday.4098:

Add more condi cleanse problem solve condi is ok but the lack of cleanse is what make them see op

Think about keep the entire fight (1 v 1 scenario for ex…) doing nothing but pushing that full cleansing skill while your adversary just keep pressuring and pressuring conditions with no risk…

SolarDragon.7063:

Freestacking was so that long-acting condis (necro utilities, etc) weren’t overlaid with short-term reapply condis (engi pistol AA). Reverting that change would be awful.

Secondly, balancing around expertise is actually a better option as it means that condi builds start having more than one stat influencing their potential damage-similar to the power/prec/fer triad for power builds.

Kyon.9735:

IMO condi builds need to add more “offensive” stats so they will need to put less stats on defense. They can be very tanky and also have the ability to condi burst which is not available for most power builds.

Remove expertise and lower overall condition damage. Allow conditions to crit. That way non offensive condi builds can still be tanky but deal less damage and people can still condi burst if they choose do take precision for it.

Agree!
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Balance-ideas/page/2#post6215565

I used to say Diamond Skin was the only reason condition builds were in check…

You have to realize condition’s are out of hand because condition removal is out of hand. they need to tone down both. In the past some builds couldn’t even incorporate condition removal. Now most builds can incorporate traits and skills for condition removal. Its a power creep issue. More condition removal required more conditions. Dare Devil thief can now remove conditions on dodge if they forgo pulmonary impact. As if removing conditions in stealth wasn’t enough for them their acro/trickery trait-line also has condition removal. So do their commonly used utility such as shadow step. This is just one example I used because it is one of the weakest classes right now. The other classes are in a more broken state.

Ario.8964:

My intent was to point out that it isn’t only an issue with the specific builds using condi that makes them too strong, it’s partially the way condi functions.

You are wrong, it is a build issue, to take an example p/p engi, to kill anyone that isn’t either hopeless or isn’t a glass cannon with literally zero condi removal, you have to land “big” skills (blowtorch mainly, pry bar if you use toolkit, etc) just like a power build, and unlike a power build your damage can still be removed even if you land those skills past the dodges, blocks, etc…, not every condi build is condi mes…

You can avoid getting hit by skullcrack, just as you can avoid getting with condi bomb from mesmer.

Just learn to see the signs and dodge/block/evade/invul it.

The only thing, absolutely ONLY thing condi-wise is too much atm, thats the charge part of skullcrack. And sorry, but even that isnt actually that difficult to dodge and kite.

Everything else is fine. Condi wise.

You are complaining about condi warrior and condi mesmer, but dont see the real issues with those two.
Mesmer → Signet of illusions, too much evade
War → too long cc durations on too short cooldowns

Buff one or two other build that AOE cleanses.

So, power roamer could kill those condi users.

JETWING.2759:

SolarDragon.7063:

Freestacking was so that long-acting condis (necro utilities, etc) weren’t overlaid with short-term reapply condis (engi pistol AA). Reverting that change would be awful.

Secondly, balancing around expertise is actually a better option as it means that condi builds start having more than one stat influencing their potential damage-similar to the power/prec/fer triad for power builds.

Kyon.9735:

IMO condi builds need to add more “offensive” stats so they will need to put less stats on defense. They can be very tanky and also have the ability to condi burst which is not available for most power builds.

Remove expertise and lower overall condition damage. Allow conditions to crit. That way non offensive condi builds can still be tanky but deal less damage and people can still condi burst if they choose do take precision for it.

Agree!
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Balance-ideas/page/2#post6215565

Disagree. Take a look at the current list of amulets being used by damage builds in the meta.

Wanderer’s Amulet

• 1050 Precision
• 1050 Condition Damage
• 560 Toughness
• 560 Expertise

Carrion Amulet

• 1200 Condition Damage
• 900 Power
• 900 Vitality

Marauder Amulet

• 1050 Precision
• 1050 Power
• 560 Vitality
• 560 Ferocity

Paladin’s Amulet

• 1050 Power
• 1050 Precision
• 560 Vitality
• 560 Toughness

What I can’t see to find here is condi builds taking very tanky stats. What I do see here is a power amulet that is just as tanky as any condi amulet. So you want to force condi users into being garbage without all 3 stats but not power users? Seems biased to me. The problems are with specific builds, no with condi damage itself. Balance those builds instead of breaking a source of damage that only 3 professions are even able to use in the meta.

Jourdelune.7456:

Buff one or two other build that AOE cleanses.

So, power roamer could kill those condi users.

Handing out even more AoE cleanses instead of balancing the condi application of specific builds? What a horrible balance decision.

zinkz.7045:

Ario.8964:

My intent was to point out that it isn’t only an issue with the specific builds using condi that makes them too strong, it’s partially the way condi functions.

You are wrong, it is a build issue, to take an example p/p engi, to kill anyone that isn’t either hopeless or isn’t a glass cannon with literally zero condi removal, you have to land “big” skills (blowtorch mainly, pry bar if you use toolkit, etc) just like a power build, and unlike a power build your damage can still be removed even if you land those skills past the dodges, blocks, etc…, not every condi build is condi mes…

Your example is flawed because vanilla engi doesn’t even work in the meta. Even when it did it was risky af because you had no condi removal outside heal turret so there were easy counters to it. The condi builds that are out of hand right now have loads of sustain/defense, lots of spammable cc, tons of spammable damage, and next to no drawbacks for running the build. Condi engi is pretty much the only skilled condi build to ever exist.

Shaogin.2679:

JETWING.2759:

SolarDragon.7063:

Freestacking was so that long-acting condis (necro utilities, etc) weren’t overlaid with short-term reapply condis (engi pistol AA). Reverting that change would be awful.

Secondly, balancing around expertise is actually a better option as it means that condi builds start having more than one stat influencing their potential damage-similar to the power/prec/fer triad for power builds.

Kyon.9735:

IMO condi builds need to add more “offensive” stats so they will need to put less stats on defense. They can be very tanky and also have the ability to condi burst which is not available for most power builds.

Remove expertise and lower overall condition damage. Allow conditions to crit. That way non offensive condi builds can still be tanky but deal less damage and people can still condi burst if they choose do take precision for it.

Agree!
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Balance-ideas/page/2#post6215565

Disagree. Take a look at the current list of amulets being used by damage builds in the meta.

Wanderer’s Amulet

• 1050 Precision
• 1050 Condition Damage
• 560 Toughness
• 560 Expertise

Carrion Amulet

• 1200 Condition Damage
• 900 Power
• 900 Vitality

Marauder Amulet

• 1050 Precision
• 1050 Power
• 560 Vitality
• 560 Ferocity

Paladin’s Amulet

• 1050 Power
• 1050 Precision
• 560 Vitality
• 560 Toughness

What I can’t see to find here is condi builds taking very tanky stats. What I do see here is a power amulet that is just as tanky as any condi amulet. So you want to force condi users into being garbage without all 3 stats but not power users? Seems biased to me. The problems are with specific builds, no with condi damage itself. Balance those builds instead of breaking a source of damage that only 3 professions are even able to use in the meta.

Jourdelune.7456:

Buff one or two other build that AOE cleanses.

So, power roamer could kill those condi users.

Handing out even more AoE cleanses instead of balancing the condi application of specific builds? What a horrible balance decision.

I’ve recognized the need to nerf base power damage multiple times and I’ve said it in almost every balance post I’ve made. this thread is to talk about conditions and how to remove the powercreep affecting them If condi removal needs a nerf then so be it. Spammable removal and application should never be a thing so yes both need a nerf. BUT the performance of conditions currently is too much right now and in order to take condi removal down the damage and spammability of condis needs to go down as well.

Ario.8964:

zinkz.7045:

Ario.8964:

My intent was to point out that it isn’t only an issue with the specific builds using condi that makes them too strong, it’s partially the way condi functions.

You are wrong, it is a build issue, to take an example p/p engi, to kill anyone that isn’t either hopeless or isn’t a glass cannon with literally zero condi removal, you have to land “big” skills (blowtorch mainly, pry bar if you use toolkit, etc) just like a power build, and unlike a power build your damage can still be removed even if you land those skills past the dodges, blocks, etc…, not every condi build is condi mes…

Your example is flawed because vanilla engi doesn’t even work in the meta. Even when it did it was risky af because you had no condi removal outside heal turret so there were easy counters to it. The condi builds that are out of hand right now have loads of sustain/defense, lots of spammable cc, tons of spammable damage, and next to no drawbacks for running the build. Condi engi is pretty much the only skilled condi build to ever exist.

Whether it works in the meta is irrelevant, broken OP powercreeped builds make up the meta, hence it is a build problem not a condi issue.

P.S – You can play all sorts of versions of it with more or less condi removal depending on what you think you need, you can even play scrapper versions.

Ario.8964:

I’ve recognized the need to nerf base power damage multiple times and I’ve said it in almost every balance post I’ve made. this thread is to talk about conditions and how to remove the powercreep affecting them If condi removal needs a nerf then so be it. Spammable removal and application should never be a thing so yes both need a nerf. BUT the performance of conditions currently is too much right now and in order to take condi removal down the damage and spammability of condis needs to go down as well.

I have seen no information whatsoever to show the performance of conditions is too much. What I have seen is that the application of conditions on 3 professions is currently too strong. So why nerf condition performance across the board instead of balancing the condi application and/or sustain of the only 3 professions that are causing a problem with it?

Shaogin.2679:

Ario.8964:

I’ve recognized the need to nerf base power damage multiple times and I’ve said it in almost every balance post I’ve made. this thread is to talk about conditions and how to remove the powercreep affecting them If condi removal needs a nerf then so be it. Spammable removal and application should never be a thing so yes both need a nerf. BUT the performance of conditions currently is too much right now and in order to take condi removal down the damage and spammability of condis needs to go down as well.

I have seen no information whatsoever to show the performance of conditions is too much. What I have seen is that the application of conditions on 3 professions is currently too strong. So why nerf condition performance across the board instead of balancing the condi application and/or sustain of the only 3 professions that are causing a problem with it?

Information being the Pro league winners had a comp consisting of 2 condi dealers, 2 bunkers and only 1 power. Anyone who ran a comp different than this in any way was utterly destroyed.

The sustain and application of the builds causing a problem should be dealt with but at the same time there are fundamental issues with conditions and that’s why these builds were able to exist in the first place. They wouldn’t be nearly as troublesome if their condis didn’t each last for 10+ seconds (anything above 8 is bad) and have high damage without them needing to invest heavily into buffing those conditions through things like traits. Take power builds for example, they generally have to take every damage mod they can get their hands on whereas condi builds can just slot the pure defense traits because their condi damage will be high anyways.

What I want to see is stuff like damage nerfed but have damage mods added in so they can achieve the damage they do now but sacrifice for it. Same reason I want power damage reduced as base with an increase in scaling. Builds should be based on investment via traits, gear, and skills. Not take 1 or 2 stats and have high damage then just take a bunch of defensive skills and traits and be insanely hard to kill with tons of damage.

At least that’s what I think it should be and seeing as we are not the same nor are our opinions the same we may not ever agree on this

Yasi.9065:

People are really over-estimating the effectiveness of condition duration in pvp.

I posted it before… reducing cooldown of purity sigil is all that is needed.

And that makes condition builds obsolete against certain matchups.