Guild Wars 2

I just recently found this guy’s stream and he makes a EXCELLENT point about the state of guild wars 2. I strongly suggest you check it out.

http://www.twitch.tv/helsethgw2/b/441180799

(It’s also gameplay not just talking)

Inverted.7439:

I just recently found this guy’s stream and he makes a EXCELLENT point about the state of guild wars 2. I strongly suggest you check it out before Anet removes this post lul

http://www.twitch.tv/helsethgw2/b/441180799

Indeed, the most telegraphed class its warrior, hence why its the most underpowered class, but the warrior is actually balanced because of this, nor the other classes.

Suggest change the topic tittle to “Animations main source of the imbalance” or something similar so it gets more attention.

Animations but also the asura since the effect is on a smaller scale making it nearly impossible to see in the chaos of players and minions. Where it’s at now is simply assuming what and when to expect certain attack strings instead of seeing the animation to respond to.

great stream

there is still sooooo much more the game need to fix….

A lot more people need to check this out:
http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com.au/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html

Bump. Worth the 15 mins to watch what the guy has to say.

Didn’t watch the full video, but I agree and this often frustrates me. There is definite inequality in the animation telegraph, readability, ability to react/counter, etc. of each profession.

In my mind, elementalist (but air scepter 1-3 is really lame spam), guardian and warrior are all pretty fair and easy to read and react to. Though there are some instant abilities for these, I think they are not significantly powerful. Generally all, or most, of the abilities for these profs are avoidable if played right.

Engineers are sometimes readable (it is nice that their kits change on their back), but they currently spam too many conditions that it becomes difficult to really have a fair and controlled situation against them.

Rangers I suppose have many readable abilities, but they are so passive and spam based currently that it doesn’t matter. Most people know when a ranger is shortbow spamming them forever, but there isn’t always something they can do about it.

Thieves have some good ability telegraphs, but it hardly matters because they are in stealth half the time, and when they appear their attacks can take most or all of your hp (especially if you dont have CC removal up).

Mesmers are a similar problem, their telegraphs are masked by stealth and illusions (I know, that is sort of the point). Mesmer Greatsword #1 really bothers me, as does scepter #1. I really would like to see all these ‘laserbeam/lightning chain (as in ele air scep)’ attacks removed/redesigned as they really just seem to be spam. As for mesmer scepter 1, the mesmer flailing its hands to produce damage on a target somewhere, with little warning to the target, is just annoying and lame.

Which brings me to the necro. The necro, from what I have noticed, has the most of these ‘hand flailing’ animations. The only noticeable cue on the target’s side is a green puff of smoke and maybe a skull. Couple this with the rest of the necro disaster in the game currently, and I find it extremely annoying to play with.

Call me biased, but I think it is much more fun to fight against professions with fair and readable animation telegraphs.

I did theorize once in another thread that the current meta of procs and conditions that evolved to counter the evasion meta did so not because conditions were superior to anything, but because the lack of telegraphs and short start up times for ranged weapons meant that players could keep a steady offense against evasive builds. It just happened that most ranged weapons and procs are condition based.

Looks like I’m not the only one to come up with this theory.

Responding and +1 to your post because this guy actually took the time to make a video about a problem that has been in the game forever.

Its just increadible ridiculous when you think about this and all the abilities that are instant, look at mesmer chaos storm… instant, thief backstab, isntant ok it probably couldnt be other way but IT CAN BE BLOCKED and still not reveal the thief wtf????….

Seing all the necros staff animations its just plain stupid, its like if warrior would do autoattack animation for lets say… hundred blades… that signet on the necro its too OP.

Why do we have blocks and dodges if we cant see the animation to do so, and why do we have this either if a thief can spam forever until it conects his hits???

This game will never be took seriously if this aspects are never addresed.

^^To be fair, chaos storm is not instant. The damage it does only “works” when you loiter in the field, meaning that a large portion of the effects can be avoided simply by moving out of the field.

This is a distinction that needs to be made, and I think it is something that needs to happen more often in skills. There are a lot of skills that, while they themselves don’t have a big animation, their effects are delayed, they are channeled, or their damage is strewn about several slower hits instead of one big hit. I’ll give an example of each one:

Delayed effect: Dragon’s Tooth and Shatterstone. Activating the skill is really short, but they loiter around for a second or two before hitting the ground. Thus, their high damage is justified by the fact that players can just walk out of them, and they provide a means of area control because of it.

Channeled Effects: Confusing Images, Blurred Frenzy. These skills can be interrupted mid use, and lock the player out of preforming different tasks. Here, the attack themselves is the tell, and while avoiding the first or second hit is impossible, 75% of the attack can be avoided by positioning, counter-stunning, blocking, or dodging. These are fine in the sense that they enforce proper timing in use, or else the opponent has a dozen ways to mitigate the attack.

Strewn damage: Well of Suffering, Lava Font. While the wells themselves do not have a long activation time at all, in order to suffer the damage from the wells, a player has to loiter in them for several seconds, with most smart players leaving after the first hit. This is similar to a channel, but unlike channels these delayed attacks do not limit the user, so after placing them down the player is free to fight as normal. This encourages play, again, because it rewards effective area control and player control.

It is fine for these skills to be instantaneous because you’ll rarely ever take full damage from them due to their effects. Something that is truly instantaneous, however, generally isn’t that fun.

For example: Blunderbuss from the engineer. Absolutely no tell at all when you’re going to get buckshot to the face. The only thing you can do is guess that, when an engineer approaches you or you approach the engineer at close range, that they will use Blunderbuss immediately.

During a state of the game a dev(karl mclain) said he liked what the video is against. He thought it was extremely skillful for 2 rangers to fight then go back and forth until 1 popped troll unguent and the other ranger to rupt it. It sounded like he wanted an arcade style mmo. The obvious issue is that this isn’t an arcade where there’s set factors(1v1) and you telegraph moves(the attack chain) before doing them.

Some people will counter with “it’s more skillful this way because more factors = more skill”. This isn’t true, your mind can only keep track of so much and anything you can’t see is not something you can fight. Games with a handful of mechanics like FPS can require far more skill than a bunch of things you can’t see. Cast bars(remember those? we had them in gw1…) would be great but Anet isn’t into them this time around. Casting bars would encourage more skillful play and allow less experienced players to become better at a much faster pace. As the game stands now pvp is difficult against classes you have no experience playing yourself(and can still be difficult when you do).

You couldnt see it but i just used a skill that will metl your hp to half…. very skillfull gameplay.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Delayed effect: Dragon’s Tooth and Shatterstone. Activating the skill is really short, but they loiter around for a second or two before hitting the ground. Thus, their high damage is justified by the fact that players can just walk out of them, and they provide a means of area control because of it.

To be fair, you know darn well that Shatterstone was a terrible example there. :P

Celtus.8456:

Didn’t watch the full video, but I agree and this often frustrates me. There is definite inequality in the animation telegraph, readability, ability to react/counter, etc. of each profession.

In my mind, elementalist (but air scepter 1-3 is really lame spam), guardian and warrior are all pretty fair and easy to read and react to. Though there are some instant abilities for these, I think they are not significantly powerful. Generally all, or most, of the abilities for these profs are avoidable if played right.

Engineers are sometimes readable (it is nice that their kits change on their back), but they currently spam too many conditions that it becomes difficult to really have a fair and controlled situation against them.

Rangers I suppose have many readable abilities, but they are so passive and spam based currently that it doesn’t matter. Most people know when a ranger is shortbow spamming them forever, but there isn’t always something they can do about it.

Thieves have some good ability telegraphs, but it hardly matters because they are in stealth half the time, and when they appear their attacks can take most or all of your hp (especially if you dont have CC removal up).

Mesmers are a similar problem, their telegraphs are masked by stealth and illusions (I know, that is sort of the point). Mesmer Greatsword #1 really bothers me, as does scepter #1. I really would like to see all these ‘laserbeam/lightning chain (as in ele air scep)’ attacks removed/redesigned as they really just seem to be spam. As for mesmer scepter 1, the mesmer flailing its hands to produce damage on a target somewhere, with little warning to the target, is just annoying and lame.

Which brings me to the necro. The necro, from what I have noticed, has the most of these ‘hand flailing’ animations. The only noticeable cue on the target’s side is a green puff of smoke and maybe a skull. Couple this with the rest of the necro disaster in the game currently, and I find it extremely annoying to play with.

Call me biased, but I think it is much more fun to fight against professions with fair and readable animation telegraphs.

I agree with all of what you’ve said however I should point out that you may be thinking of a different skill to Mes Scepter #1 since it’s not really reputed for its damage and it shoots a big purple ball at the target.

A good start as the stream said would be in having the asura size scale normalized in spvp seeing how there is no disadvantage in moving, dodging, or attacking while playing the smallest scale from the largest norn scale. Right now the smallest asura means the smallest animation to react to if the skills are even telegraphed in the first place.

I’ve watched two videos of this guy(about animations and about spam) and i absolutely agree with him.My primary character is a ranger, and ranger’s shortbow is just a mess.All skills are absolutely the same(considering the animations) impact is relatively low, animation time is relatively low, and you just mash all the buttons instead of thinking when using the skills.
(BTW, i have posted about this some time ago, so the idea that GW2 is spamfest is obvious.It is spamfest when it is 1v1, and it is even greater spamfest when it is 5v5 or 20v20 like in WvW)
Arenanet must fix this.And they also have to return castbars.It is the best solution to both improve gameplay and enjoyment from the game in general, the only obstacle is Arenanet’s stubborness.

I still remember casual pvp in GW1 and how easy it was to learn. At first you have no idea what’s going on but as you die and experience different builds/classes you start to put things together. You begin recognizing skills by the animation(instead of the other way around) after you’ve internalized them.

Think about it: tons of beginner players have no idea what thieves or mesmers do, they just scream “broken! NERF!” because they can’t match the animation to anything. Some noobs even think thieves are teleport hacking or mesmers are damage hacking- they have no way to discover what’s going on. So how the hell are you going to learn the game unless you play every class extensively? Who wants to do that? In a game where every class is unique and yet cast animations are sometimes generic or impossible to understand without playing that class, how can a player grow and enjoy the game? It’ll quickly become a frustration to many and they’ll leave PvP alone.

data.4093:

I still remember casual pvp in GW1 and how easy it was to learn. At first you have no idea what’s going on but as you die and experience different builds/classes you start to put things together. You begin recognizing skills by the animation(instead of the other way around) after you’ve internalized them.

Think about it: tons of beginner players have no idea what thieves or mesmers do, they just scream “broken! NERF!” because they can’t match the animation to anything. Some noobs even think thieves are teleport hacking or mesmers are damage hacking- they have no way to discover what’s going on. So how the hell are you going to learn the game unless you play every class extensively? Who wants to do that? In a game where every class is unique and yet cast animations are sometimes generic or impossible to understand without playing that class, how can a player grow and enjoy the game? It’ll quickly become a frustration to many and they’ll leave PvP alone.

Yeah, you are suppoused to know how to dodge something that has no animation, isnt that right???

About thieves, just look how stupid this works, you block a from stealth attack and they keep spaming until it lands, so again, how are you suppoused to learn counters if when you do them they dont matter, the other player stills do what they want.

I agree, asura needs to be banned from pvp