Guild Wars 2

In The Army, I learned that officers don’t worry much about morale when the troops are kittening. Silence is the danger sign. It’s deathly silent often in the pvp lobby these days.

Here’s what I’m seeing:

WvW: This mode is a non starter because population has never been balanced.

PvE; Not bad at all and fun despite being denigrated by pvp players.

HoT Maps: Neat maps and mechanics. The day/night cycle, holding rally points and the dustoffs remind me strongly of the vietnam conflict. ( no, I’m not a vietnam vet, I went to Iraq ) Unfortunately, silverwaste is faster , easier and more profitable to farm. So, the population in the HoT maps is often too low to make advancing elites or HoT skills easy.

Matchmaking: “ick”

HoT Elite Specs: After the initial buying pulse, the elite specs were nerfed so hard that in some cases the core classes are actually better. I can’t speak to the thinking or what happened at ANET.

However, this has the appearance of a deception. I and many others bought HoT for the elites. How can this not create bad feeling?

Tournaments: The first season allowed “smurfing.” That created an atmosphere so bad that people wearing the pvp backpack and /or displaying legendary rank can be and are openly called cheats.

Solutions:

WvW: gate population so that no side has an overwhelming numerical advantage.

-edit- or give the undermanned side a large number of npc defender troops to make up the difference.

PvE: Don’t fix it, it ain’t broke.

HoT Maps: Either increase the rewards or decrease those of the silverwaste. Spirit Vale is not an issue since most players won’t be able to get on a team anyway.

Matchmaking: I honestly have no idea. Except, don’t allow profession stacking.

Elite Specs: These need to actually be elite specs. Otherwise, there isn’t value for money. The Elite needs to be significantly stronger than the core.

Ithilwen.1529:

In The Army, I learned that officers don’t worry much about morale when the troops are kittening.

Well given the amount of kittening occurring since HoT, I guess this game is doing great.

Ithilwen.1529:

Elite Specs: These need to actually be elite specs. Otherwise, there isn’t value for money. The Elite needs to be significantly stronger than the core.

Your expectation differs from mine. And also ANets own promises.

ANet sells its pvp on the promise of a level playing field. They promised that those who spend more grind or money would not get an advantage, unlike some other pvp MMOs.

PvP needs to fulfill this promise to have any hope of getting back any credibility at all.

If that’s the case, what’s the point of buying HoT?

Ithilwen.1529:

If that’s the case, what’s the point of buying HoT?

You’re right, but those saying the elites shouldn’t be stronger than the core builds have a point.
Maybe anet shouldn’t have chosen the route they did as what happened now is that only 9 builds are halfway viable in all game modes. So they killed their core game with HoT and that is stupid. If you want to play bow warrior – tough luck, not viable. So we have about 1/3 of the game we had left.

Wrong sub-forum, bring it to wvw or pve discussions.

Jana.6831:

Ithilwen.1529:

If that’s the case, what’s the point of buying HoT?

You’re right, but those saying the elites shouldn’t be stronger than the core builds have a point.

Well as far i know elite specs were supposed to offer alternative playstyle or focusing more on x aspect.. Instead they went into power creep direction to force ppl to buy HoT. How that ended we all know, cant w8 for q1 2016 report.

HoT Elite Specs: After the initial buying pulse, the elite specs were nerfed so hard that in some cases the core classes are actually better.

Do you even pvp bro

“Elite Specs: These need to actually be elite specs. Otherwise, there isn’t value for money. The Elite needs to be significantly stronger than the core.”

Hahhhahahhaahshshshahsh

As a matter of fact, I’m a sis. Yes I do PvP often. I agree the power creep was to force people to buy the extension. Once the buying pulse was over they nerfed it hard.

GW1 players have remembered to me a similar situation. It was the straw that pretty much killed gw1 for many people.

Ithilwen.1529:

HoT Elite Specs: After the initial buying pulse, the elite specs were nerfed so hard that in some cases the core classes are actually better. I can’t speak to the thinking or what happened at ANET.

However, this has the appearance of a deception. I and many others bought HoT for the elites. How can this not create bad feeling?

And this is where you discredited yourself entirely.

Discredited myself? How, pray tell? What I said was accurate if not pleasant to face.

What i don’t get is that, people either say the elite specs need to be stronger than the core, or they need to be on par with core classes. Make up your mind people!

Ithilwen.1529:

Discredited myself? How, pray tell? What I said was accurate if not pleasant to face.

You discredited yourself because

1. in most cases, elite specs are still stronger than core specs, some by a lot
2. elite specs should bring diversity, not stronger class. What is the point of running stronger class if everybody got stronger? None. However, by making elite specs stronger, they reduced build diversity, which is the exact opposite of what elite specs were meant to bring.

Example: before HoT, we had medi-guard, burn-guard and bunker guard all somewhat competitive. Now, we only have the medi-dragonhunter, which is subpar. Diversity: 3 -> 0

Uhmmm, according to your signature, you play Mesmer. Are you honestly going to claim that Chronomancer is “stonger than core?” I’m kicking the kitten out of Chronomancers on PU condi Mesmer.

I can’t really speak to most of the other classes. I do better as a venom share Thief than I do as a Daredevil.

Your second point is a matter of opinion. So, it can hardly be said to discredit me unless you claim to be the ultimate authority.

Entertaining the idea for a moment; If we suppose that elites are meant to bring build diversity, then I have two questions;

What would be the point of effectively buying the game again to get the expansion? There would be very little motivation for established players with well understood classes to buy the game over again. That would mean learning a new class for no real benefit.

Why were the new classes released in such a way that they were clearly more powerful than the core classes? If the intent was to create diversity, then releasing significantly more powerful classes makes no sense.

ANET’s actions argue against the notion that the intent was to create diversity.

Ithilwen.1529:

venom share Thief

Im sry, but wat? Elite specs are op in comprasion to core classes. They wasnt supposed to be stronger so wtf? As for your thief..

Laugh all you like. Played well it works. Sad that that’s all you can think of to contribute to the discussion.

Ithilwen.1529:

Uhmmm, according to your signature, you play Mesmer. Are you honestly going to claim that Chronomancer is “stonger than core?” I’m kicking the kitten out of Chronomancers on PU condi Mesmer.

Pre-nerf chronomancer was clearly stronger than core mesmer. And alacrity was the main responsible. Any build is improved by reducing its cooldown for a very small cost. Now, alacrity is not as strong, and therefore, I am often going back to core mesmer builds. So yes, I think chronomancer is closer to what I hope, meaning a bringer of diversity. Bunker builds work fine with chrono, and shatter work fine with core mesmer.

Note however, that this situation is pretty rare, and most other classes are straight out better as elite specs. And this is actually the problem of mesmer currently. We are back to pre-HoT level when everybody else isn’t.

I can’t really speak to most of the other classes. I do better as a venom share Thief than I do as a Daredevil.

Your second point is a matter of opinion. So, it can hardly be said to discredit me unless you claim to be the ultimate authority.

Entertaining the idea for a moment; If we suppose that elites are meant to bring build diversity, then I have two questions;

What would be the point of effectively buying the game again to get the expansion? There would be very little motivation for established players with well understood classes to buy the game over again. That would mean learning a new class for no real benefit.

Why were the new classes released in such a way that they were clearly more powerful than the core classes? If the intent was to create diversity, then releasing significantly more powerful classes makes no sense.

ANET’s actions argue against the notion that the intent was to create diversity.

There is many points to discuss.

• First, I think bringing diversity is a valid reason for buying the expansion. I did not expect elite specs to be stronger (because a-net official statement was that they are horizontal progression instead of vertical, i.e. power creep) and yet I bought the expansion. Simply because the new elite specs (in particular chrono and reaper which were announced early) looked fun and interesting. And since I love playing with builds, having one more trait line, 1 more weapon and a few more utilities was something to look forward to.
• Most elite specs were too strong on release, but not during beta. Would bunker chrono have been OP during BWE1? Well I can tell you, I played bunker chrono with the exact same traits that then became meta during BWE1. At this time, there was no alacrity on wells, precognition gave unblockable and the shield did not offer a channeled block. It was fun, but not OP. And most other elite specs were seen as straight out underpowered by the community. This lead to a series of buffs. Some were QoL or justified, some extreme. Maybe a-net actually wanted overbuffed specs, but it seemed to me that they were just afraid of the criticism that would spoil their sellings more than consciously wanting power creep.
• one last point: while I don’t usually go on the “PvE and PvP should have different balance” wagon, it is clear that elite specs had raids in mind, and PvP balance suffered heavily from it. In particular the insane amount of CC (to make sure everyone could break bars) is a clear symptom of PvE-focused balancing of elite specs.

Now I don’t want to be too much on a-net’s side. I started to have faith in their balancing during the BWE seeing how they communicated and listened, and I had hope that they would simply fine tune the elite specs and bring a lot of needed QoL changes to core specs. Instead, we stopped hearing them almost as soon as the expansion came out, and I strongly suspect that the balance team has been simply removed, leaving only Karl.

Regardless of what was a-net intent, I don’t think anyone can disagree on the fact that we want build diversity, and having elite specs straight out stronger is doing just the opposite. I really think the best solution for this game is a strong nerf to most elite specs to bring them in-line with pre-HoT. On top of that, some reworks of core specs features can be useful since build diversity was far from perfect pre-HoT (but still better than currently in many cases).

Ithilwen.1529:

Laugh all you like. Played well it works. Sad that that’s all you can think of to contribute to the discussion.

Maybe in hotjoin in the daily rooms. Elite specs are op and needs to be toned down.

Here is the official answer regardless elite specs

https://np.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3opycg/arenanet_unveil_the_future_of_competitive_guild/cvzfp12

As you see they are not supposed to be op. but balanced on the core level. It works for war, works for mes. Its time for rest.

So, in essense you agree that Chronomancer is in fact weaker at this time than the core Mesmer class. We have that much common ground at any rate.

Sure, I’ll agree that build diversity is something we want.

Nevertheless the Elite specs were released significantly stronger than the core classes. This made it pretty much mandatory to buy the expac to compete in PvP.

To then turn around and nerf the elite classes hard is cynical at best. If the intent was to create build diversity, then the elites would have been released as different modes but of similar power. They were not. Ergo, diversity was not the goal.

I bought the expac ( twice, one for each of my accounts ) specifically to finally have a competitive Mesmer. That was the promise.

@burtnik

If that’s the case, then why were the elites released at a significantly higher power level than the core? It’s not logical to make a class clearly more powerful if the intent is to have it a similar power level to others.

Was it to force players to buy the expac to stay in the game?

-edit- I don’t do hotjoin. It’s too chaotikittenil the most recent changes, I always queue’d ranked. Now I queue ranked whenever it’s available.

Power creep is one of the most common and efficient marketing strategies to sell expansions….
If A-Net wants diversity it now would have to dedicate developers to tweak all the base classes. There are hundreds of skills and traits to be looked at. It can be done 99% with just number changes. But its a lot of work and the sheer mass of skills have a high risk to overshoot somewhere.
So in the end its a matter of will to invest manpower.
The other way is to keep high level diversity low which will reduce effort = costs.

Well said. 15 characters

Ithilwen.1529:

So, in essense you agree that Chronomancer is in fact weaker at this time than the core Mesmer class. We have that much common ground at any rate.

Sure, I’ll agree that build diversity is something we want.

Nevertheless the Elite specs were released significantly stronger than the core classes. This made it pretty much mandatory to buy the expac to compete in PvP.

To then turn around and nerf the elite classes hard is cynical at best. If the intent was to create build diversity, then the elites would have been released as different modes but of similar power. They were not. Ergo, diversity was not the goal.

I bought the expac ( twice, one for each of my accounts ) specifically to finally have a competitive Mesmer. That was the promise.

Nobody promised anywhere that the meta would change to be inclusive of the Chronomancer or the mesmer in general. If you bought the expansion to be viable, you either did it well-after HoT launched knowing that Chronobunker was OP, or you purchased the expansion before/as it launched simply hoping that what you were advertised was going to do better in a very undefined meta. The Chronomancer was super competitive because it was objectively overpowered, not because the class was well-designed or the structure of the mode changed.

You bought the expansion for all the wrong reasons if you just expected to be more powerful, and clearly didn’t research the product. Numerous times, including the announcement at PAX South, did the lead game director and CEO of the company announce that elite specializations were intended NOT to be more powerful than core specializations and were released to change styles of play/add more diversity to the classes for different purposes. People claiming that the specs should be more powerful are lying to themselves and/or didn’t actually look at what the intent of the expansion was to be by reading about what they were purchasing.

The chronomancer spec/trait line has very distinct and very significant/build-defining uses that have allowed the profession to be played differently and be used in different contexts. That was the intent. If power-shatter mesmer is superior to power-shatter chronomancer, but bunker builds are possible and the class brings massive group support to PvE on the chronomancer, the spec has been done properly by ensuring that more styles of play have opened up rather than power creep.

It doesn’t justify the power creep on other classes, and in particular, this mentality shows how Daredevil is the biggest design failure of all of the elite specializations since it did objectively nothing to change the way the thief plays and opened up no new builds except D/D condi which is a scumbag build, while only buffing D/P. Just because other classes are power-creeped, however, doesn’t justify that the mesmer/chrono should be; everything else just needs to be toned down, and we should be expecting a lot more nerfs in the next quarter’s patch, for that’s what the game director said they’re focusing on for the next major patch: balancing elite specs to core.

I pre purchased HoT. In addition I’ve pretty much mained Mesmer for years.

No, the Chronomancer line really is not build defining. the Alacrity and quickness changes have made it a sideline factor at best.

If as you say the elites weren’t intended to be more powerful; Then why were they released in a form that was considerably more powerful than the core classes?

Here we have a clear conflict between statements and actions. One possible explanation is that it was to force players to buy the expac to compete in season 1.

Ithilwen.1529:

I pre purchased HoT. In addition I’ve pretty much mained Mesmer for years.

No, the Chronomancer line really is not build defining. the Alacrity and quickness changes have made it a sideline factor at best.

If as you say the elites weren’t intended to be more powerful; Then why were they released in a form that was considerably more powerful than the core classes?

Here we have a clear conflict between statements and actions. One possible explanation is that it was to force players to buy the expac to compete in season 1.

It’s build-defining for challenging PvE which is what HoT was supposed to feature. Take a core mesmer to a raid and you’ll be laughed out of the door. Chronomancers, however, bring tons of group utility/damage to the table and have a huge role in organized PvE.

Which is exactly a role the core mesmer absolutely does not have. Recall all of the complaints from mesmers being kicked from speed run groups/never being part of the speed run dungeon meta before HoT landed. The class does very low personal DPS due to its massive burst potential, and core mesmer brings little group utility to the table aside from long-cooldown quickness.

Like I said, expecting to have the new elites be the best or competitive in all formats and all contexts is silly when the announced intent was to feature ways to change how the class plays. Since the chronomancer can have a huge effect on group performance whereas the core mesmer doesn’t at all, this is a pretty big change, just as how the Reaper is designed to handle multiple foes and be shroud-heavy for low burst and high DPS while core necromancer is not shroud-heavy, and core shroud is focused on high burst and low DPS on a single target (speaking for power/concept, condi is overtuned in its numbers atm).

As far as releasing the classes being OP/more powerful than core, of course they did. Would you have preferred to have the elite specializations suck at release to be upset when you realize your original build was strictly better? Would you have then regretted purchasing the expansion before the patch landed due to underwhelming elites? And that’s just assuming the balance issue stems from the incompetence of ANet’s balancing staff.

Further, power creep is how expansions are sold. If I’m going to try to convince you to buy a new version of something you already have, you’re going to want it to be better, rather than just waiting for what you have to break first. This is basic marketing; hype the features of the new product to get consumers to leave their current versions to accept the new one because of how great the new one is. We see this all the time with cell phones. The model from three years ago still works just fine, yet there are people who camp for days if not weeks outside of stores to be the first in line whenever a new iPhone is released, and continue to do this every single release, despite the new features per iteration being very minor.

Simply, they were likely intended to be released as superior alternatives to the core specializations to bolster sales. Anet is a company owned by a massive gaming company. If their figures aren’t good, they can expect to get some cut funding or forced to restructure their business/business model. So they power-creep the new shinies to make them more appealing to bolster sales to make upper management happy (upper management does not play the game or care about the quality of content, so long as the game sells well. I speak from personal experience having worked on a AAA MMO game before). Often the short-sighted-ness of upper management gets in the way of making intelligent long-term development decisions regarding the quality of content, but that’s how the business works. If the CEO of your company was over your shoulder and told you to do something at work and is clearly not in a mood to open discussion about the collateral, you do it, regardless of what the consequence may be, because that’s the nature of running a business.

Seems to me you fell for a marketing ploy and are upset you got played or are unwilling to admit you did. Expecting anything but this kind of release pattern suggests a lack of business insight/skepticism.

OP pretty much stated in other thread that chronobunker in season 1 was fine. I think it says everything.

@OP: devs themself said that elites were supposed to bring varierity and not be stronger than core builds. There is no denial that elites were made stupidly strong to sell HoT but it was pretty clear that they will get some nerfs at some point once enough HoT copies were sold.

Actually Deceiver X, mesmer was a competitive choice for speed/record runs because the slowest part of speed runs was time to get from fight to fight. Portal allowed for many short cuts. It’s every other run mesmer was not a part of because of how poor it’s damage was.

Additionally mesmer does bring a lot to the table, stab, AoE cleanses, projectile mitigation etc which had a huge impact on groups. However guard did all that easier and with more dps which made it a better pick for anything that you couldn’t use portal tricks.

Funny thing you say about mesmer has poor DPS because of huge burst potential, guard can JI trap onto you and 100-0 you if you’re not on the ball now. Many other classes have large burst potential also but do not suffer this DPS penalty either. I would give all the legendaries my mesmer has for equality on that front but alas after 3 years I don’t hold out hope. Neither do most mesmers as a large amount have quit the game entirely.

Otherwise I do agree with what you put, I just hope they can nerf the elite specs to be a little more in line with core so it’s not always the best choice. It’s nice having the OP stuff to play with for a few months but without balancing and fixing long standing issues such as a rework of ele scepter, mesmer phantasms, thief being as one dimensional as a line etc they will lose a lot of players.

Sorry, they have lost a lot of players, should say they won’t entice them back.

Yes I agree, the elites were released more powerful than the core class, It was a pure marketing move that I would call “cynical” if I were to look at in the most favorable light.

I further agree that in my fourth year playing GW2, the vast majority of the time Mesmer has been noticeably underpowered.

When I pre purchased HoT, it was in the hope of finally being able to keep up. Instead, we got repeated broad nerfs to shield, alacrity and wells. This had the effect of making the new class that held out so much hope little more than a footnote.

What I actually said in another post is that the other classes (and elites in particular) could have learned to counter chronobunker. Instead, the QQ solved the problem by once again dashing Mesmer to bottom tier. I think that says a lot about both anet and the players.

Now I run PU condi, in the forlorn hope of trolling a bit. I fully expect that in a year or so, anet will make another big “innovation” to boost Mesmer and destroy it soon after. It’s got me pretty down at the moment.

“The Elite needs to be significantly stronger than the core.”?

Really now? They aren’t strong enough compared to core?

Herald (everything about it: Glint, Hardening Persistence, Shared Empowerment, Facets, etc … Herald traitline is just so much better)
Scrapper (hammer, adaptive armor/rapid regen)
Reaper (chill spam, Cold Shoulder along with GS or Chilling Darkness, shouts)
DH (longbow 5 Hunter’s ward / true shot , Wings of Resolve, trap stacks and Dragon’s Maw)

Druid (Seed of life: Verdant Etching, Ancient Seed, Druidic Clarity)
Berserker (Gun flame , King of Fires pre-nerf, Bloody Roar)
Tempest (survivability wise ; Hardy Conduit , wash the pain away ,elemental bastion , overload air in conjunction with fresh air , pVE-wise: Heat sync and Sand Squall on warhorn)
DD ( Unhindered Combatant , bigger endurance bar)
Chrono (Continuum split ,Chronophantasma & Illusionary Reversion compared to regular mesmer, gravity well, alacrity ….not so much now)

apharma.3741:

Actually Deceiver X, mesmer was a competitive choice for speed/record runs because the slowest part of speed runs was time to get from fight to fight. Portal allowed for many short cuts. It’s every other run mesmer was not a part of because of how poor it’s damage was.

Additionally mesmer does bring a lot to the table, stab, AoE cleanses, projectile mitigation etc which had a huge impact on groups. However guard did all that easier and with more dps which made it a better pick for anything that you couldn’t use portal tricks.

Funny thing you say about mesmer has poor DPS because of huge burst potential, guard can JI trap onto you and 100-0 you if you’re not on the ball now. Many other classes have large burst potential also but do not suffer this DPS penalty either. I would give all the legendaries my mesmer has for equality on that front but alas after 3 years I don’t hold out hope. Neither do most mesmers as a large amount have quit the game entirely.

Otherwise I do agree with what you put, I just hope they can nerf the elite specs to be a little more in line with core so it’s not always the best choice. It’s nice having the OP stuff to play with for a few months but without balancing and fixing long standing issues such as a rework of ele scepter, mesmer phantasms, thief being as one dimensional as a line etc they will lose a lot of players.

Sorry, they have lost a lot of players, should say they won’t entice them back.

Portal use was pretty dungeon-specific. By “bringing something to the table,” I am referencing superiority/optimality. I mean a thief can bring two AOE projectile reflections, one of which is objectively better than Feedback, AoE condi cleanses, and group stealth, too. Doesn’t mean that it’s really helpful compared to say the damage it could offer in this kind of scheme.

DH burst is way slower than a shatter unless True Shot is involved. My thief has the capacity to stay in DH traps for several moments before needing to leave/die, especially when only one trap is used (in this instance of JI/trap only one would be able to be casted before the target would likely re-position). Mesmer burst in terms of the damage dealt per time engaging is the best in the game. Other classes have burst, and some, like the thief, have competitive burst, but the mesmer is objectively better here. Does it justify the disproportionately poor personal DPS the mesmer has? No, but alacrity boosting party damage and AOE haste justify the chronomancer’s use in PvE because the damage gain party-wide is pretty much bigger than anything else another class can offer up to a point where too many mesmers are stacked or not enough damage modifiers are. Frankly, I’d love to see mesmer play when building selfish DPS work out better. But the design of chronomancer was group utility for a place in raids. Maybe next elite spec we’ll see a DPS-based concept emerge that reduces shatter potency or removes the blur shatter or something to make the class play more in-line with thief stylistically. I can’t say, but the claims regarding the mesmer/chrono being bad or that the chronomancer is worse than the core mesmer are simply false, which is what I intend to make people aware of.

And believe me, I wholly support the notion of nerfs to elite specs. Scrapper and druid need huge durability losses, tempest needs a lot of tweaking to promote more high-risk/high-reward play through number and trait adjustments, condi reapers need damage cuts (power reaper is very balanced imho, GJ here Robert), and DH’s need their traps and skills to be displayed properly instead of still-persistent culling bugs and radius/effect adjustments for some, such as Maw allowing for dodges inside of it, or True Shot being toned down either in cooldown or damage. Rev’s Cruel Repurcussion needs to be removed/reworked, Thief needs core trait line love in Crit Strikes and some better cleansing options in core, and DD needs damage reductions and utility drops (frankly this elite spec is horrible by design because it does nothing to change the thief’s style of play or really anything about it except making it get Acrobatics++), and Berserker needs a bit better of a tell on Gun Flame.

The power creep is absolutely real, and I’m staunchly against anyone asking for buffs to match it at the moment. Elite specs should be build options, as promised, to change the style of play, not to make existing ones strictly perform better. This is why I advocate so heavily for power-reaper; the style and purpose of the class changed immensely, but the overall balance didn’kittens counters kind of shuffled around, but it’s not really any stronger or weaker than core power necro, and depending on context, it’s both. I’m gonna say now it’s a hell of a lot more fun than core necro IMHO, so I play it for that purpose (as do others), but overall, the spec achieves its goal. That is diversity we should be looking for, and rather than complaining about X being too weak because Y is strong so X should be buffed, we should be looking at how Y is so much better than the way Y used to be, and thus is much more powerful relative to well-designed X and pre-HoT X, so Y should be toned down accordingly, with its new counters and class goals in mind for niche roles or build purposes.

DeceiverX.8361:

The chronomancer spec/trait line has very distinct and very significant/build-defining uses that have allowed the profession to be played differently and be used in different contexts. That was the intent. If power-shatter mesmer is superior to power-shatter chronomancer, but bunker builds are possible and the class brings massive group support to PvE on the chronomancer, the spec has been done properly by ensuring that more styles of play have opened up rather than power creep.

It doesn’t justify the power creep on other classes, and in particular, this mentality shows how Daredevil is the biggest design failure of all of the elite specializations since it did objectively nothing to change the way the thief plays and opened up no new builds except D/D condi which is a scumbag build, while only buffing D/P. Just because other classes are power-creeped, however, doesn’t justify that the mesmer/chrono should be; everything else just needs to be toned down, and we should be expecting a lot more nerfs in the next quarter’s patch, for that’s what the game director said they’re focusing on for the next major patch: balancing elite specs to core.

I think this is a key point. While currently many (most) elite specs are overpowered compare to core specs, a few of them do bring a different playstyle and role, and thus, with appropriate toning down, can bring the promised build diversity. But not all of them:

• chrono brings defensive and support utilities, allowing it to be useful in a team fight while mesmer is a better roamer
• reaper brings scalable defenses and cleaving shroud, and thus should also be a better team fighter while necro excels at 1v1 and range. Unfortunately, the reaper shroud is just straight out better than death shroud
• tempest brings support… but that was already pretty much the meta role of core elementalist. It does bring a somewhat different playstyle by being less rotation-based (because of overloads) but does not really bring a new role: design failure in my opinion
• druid brings support, something core ranger was not very good at. Core ranger was the least viable profession before HoT, but druid is too strong in many aspects (too much reset potential, too strong pets, …).
• Engi is what I play the least. But I don’t feel like scrapper is changing the engi role very much. It mostly brings his first melee weapon, but engi was already a bruiser.
• DD does bring stealth-less survivability, something core thief was not very good at pre-HoT… but in big part because of the destruction of acrobatics… A good move would have been to add stealth-less support, something thief severely lacks… Partly failed design
• Berserker brought mostly conditions, and is thus diversity.
• Dragonhunter is supposed to be the more selfish version of guardian. So bunker guard should be a core-guardian thing while media-guard should be better with DH. The problem is that virtues are just better, despite having cast time, so many support guard actually play DH. They not only bring higher survivability to the guardian but also higher support. So I would at least remove the ally healing from F2 and the ally block from F3. Otherwise, DH does bring diversity.
• Herald is a different role/playstyle, but is always taken as someone mentioned above, since shield and traits are just too good to pass. Rev needs a lot of balancing, since Shiro actually brings more survivability than Jalis and Glint better support than Ventari.

So overall, most elite specs sort of do their jobs, and if they were not too strong, would have opened interesting build diversity. This is why I had hope for the last quarterly update, but unfortunately, a-net went further in power creep instead of normalizing everything…

lmao these mesmer whiners should finally learn to accept they are simply not good enough to play that class and stick with rev or something

Lexander.4579:

lmao these mesmer whiners should finally learn to accept they are simply not good enough to play that class and stick with rev or something

Please play rev without herald, i beg you

Burtnik.5218:

Lexander.4579:

lmao these mesmer whiners should finally learn to accept they are simply not good enough to play that class and stick with rev or something

Please play rev without herald, i beg you

?? why would i play anything without elite spec lol

OP is a disgruntled Mesmer creates thread about how she got ripped off because the elite got nerfed and isn’t as OP anymore. Makes a bunch of false claims based on her opinion that isn’t that well informed, or biased because Mesmer isn’t OP. Has no idea what its like to play a warrior who never even had a good elite and still it isnt good.

Lexander.4579:

Burtnik.5218:

Lexander.4579:

lmao these mesmer whiners should finally learn to accept they are simply not good enough to play that class and stick with rev or something

Please play rev without herald, i beg you

?? why would i play anything without elite spec lol

Cus you mentioned rev, not herald shrug

Ithilwen.1529:

In The Army, I learned

Couldn’t get past that part. It’s impossible to learn anything in the army.

- Marine

By the way, chrono is way stronger in tpvp

OP does not seem like the brightest to me.

I would never have guessed someone who complains as much as Ithilwin would be in the Army.

Silverkey.2078:

1. in most cases, elite specs are still stronger than core specs, some by a lot

Are they?
Or do people simply take elites for the class mechanic change or new abilities?

Example: Necros. Out of the entire reaper traitline the only exciting trait is Chill damage, the rest is pretty regrettable. Heck just looking at the traits themselves, Soul Reaping is far more important trait wise to necros than Reaper is.

The reason necros all take Reaper is for Reaper’s shroud (and occasionally for one of the shouts.) And it’s like that for most classes. Guardians don’t all run DH because DH is a better traitline, but because of the improved virtues. Warriors run Beserker for the F2.

Crinn.7864:

Silverkey.2078:

1. in most cases, elite specs are still stronger than core specs, some by a lot

Are they?
Or do people simply take elites for the class mechanic change or new abilities?

Example: Necros. Out of the entire reaper traitline the only exciting trait is Chill damage, the rest is pretty regrettable. Heck just looking at the traits themselves, Soul Reaping is far more important trait wise to necros than Reaper is.

The reason necros all take Reaper is for Reaper’s shroud (and occasionally for one of the shouts.) And it’s like that for most classes. Guardians don’t all run DH because DH is a better traitline, but because of the improved virtues. Warriors run Beserker for the F2.

Yes, but the class mechanics change is part of the trait line. This is the first minor trait you are getting. So this is part of the traitline and the line should be balanced around that.

Having read the various replies I’d like to modify my original statement. HoT was sold by making all of the Elites mildly OP. In a deeply cynical move, they where then nerfed way back.

I concede that elite specs shouldn’t be OP. Having said that; The specializations need to be strong and competitive in and of themselves.

Mesmer core is and has been underpowered for years. Chronomancer has been cut back too far to be competitive with the other elites. Now it’s a helpful ( but not mandatory ) addition to shatter Mesmers.

Because Mesmer has been under the power curve for so long, to suddenly be a top class was a heady experience. To then be cut to less than what we had before was wrenching.

Chronomancer, pre nuke-nerf was counterable. Too many players preferred to simply complain it out of existance. Post nuke-nerf, Chronomancer is largely irrelevant. ANET made it’s balancing job easier at the cost of once again destroying Mesmer.

That’s simply wrong and unethical. I suspect that the explanation has more to do with office politics at anet than it does with play testing.

Silverkey.2078:

Crinn.7864:

Silverkey.2078:

1. in most cases, elite specs are still stronger than core specs, some by a lot

Are they?
Or do people simply take elites for the class mechanic change or new abilities?

Example: Necros. Out of the entire reaper traitline the only exciting trait is Chill damage, the rest is pretty regrettable. Heck just looking at the traits themselves, Soul Reaping is far more important trait wise to necros than Reaper is.

The reason necros all take Reaper is for Reaper’s shroud (and occasionally for one of the shouts.) And it’s like that for most classes. Guardians don’t all run DH because DH is a better traitline, but because of the improved virtues. Warriors run Beserker for the F2.

Yes, but the class mechanics change is part of the trait line. This is the first minor trait you are getting. So this is part of the traitline and the line should be balanced around that.

You can’t “balance” new class mechanics. Either the elite mechanic or the core mechanic will be better. At best you might have the lesser one being usable in niche situations.
If the elite mechanic turns out to be lesser than the core one then taking the elite because downright harmful, and only the classes that can ignore the extra mechanic would ever take them.

Honestly there is no solution to balancing core vs elite as long as elite specs have the new class mechanics and skills attached to them.

Crinn.7864:

Silverkey.2078:

Yes, but the class mechanics change is part of the trait line. This is the first minor trait you are getting. So this is part of the traitline and the line should be balanced around that.

You can’t “balance” new class mechanics. Either the elite mechanic or the core mechanic will be better. At best you might have the lesser one being usable in niche situations.
If the elite mechanic turns out to be lesser than the core one then taking the elite because downright harmful, and only the classes that can ignore the extra mechanic would ever take them.

Honestly there is no solution to balancing core vs elite as long as elite specs have the new class mechanics and skills attached to them.

Here again, it works if the new class mechanics has a clear focus. Reaper shroud is melee while death shroud is ranged. The only reason RS is much better than DS is that it is also better to use and less clunky:

• much faster AA (about twice as fast) means better use of traits like Dhuumfire, Unyielding Blast and Reaper’s Might
• reliable teleport
• stability
• strong CC
• combo finishers

For guardians, virtues are supposed to be self-passive and ally active. Dragonhunter is meant as a more selfish spec, so the virtues should be stronger for self but not have any ally support. The active should thus give something else. For F1, it is CC and indeed has no ally support, but it also burns more on its own so it makes up for it currently (I think the burning needs to go out of the active: the trade of is passive burning vs active CC). F2 has mobility and self heal but should not have ally heal. F3 also blocks for allies which should go, but in this case one of the main problem is how underwhelming guardian F3 is. If there was no ally support in the new virtues, it would clearly put a focus on DH and mean that support specs would often prefer the core guardian while medi guards would usually prefer DH.

Finally, there are classes which gain a class mechanics and don’t loose anything. It is still possible to balance because this comes from a minor trait (so you do “loose a trait” for it) and by balancing the rest of the traits accordingly.

This thread is more salty than fries from McDonalds

@eureeka.5368 46 as a matter of fact and post-op.

@rouge.8235 LOL well, I can respect another vet. Marines make good cannon fodder.

Wow, I missed all the personal attacks in the first read through.

I dispute that Chronomancer was ever really OP. Other classes simply weren’t willing/able to learn to play against it.

If I entertain for a moment that Chrono was indeed OP. That is no reason to cut it down so far that it’s non competitive. Beyond that, Mesmer has been underpowered for most of the 3+ years I have been playing.

So, if I accept the notion that Mesmer deserved a heavy nerf for being briefly high powered; Then by the same token, Mesmer deserves to be OP since it has been more or less at the bottom of the heap for years.

As to the comparison to Warrior; Well do I remember the years that I as Mesmer could not even successfully engage a Warrior. Multiple shatters wouldn’t even dent the signet heal. Also they could stun -> 100 blades and kill me nearly instantly. A bit later was the hambow meta, when 5 man Hambow warrior teams rolled unchecked over PvP.

Again, if I accept that Mesmer needs a period of being underpowered for having been high powered a short time.. then by the same token, Warrior needs to be trash tier for a year or so. I could say the same of Dhuumfire Necro and d/d Ele.

The argument that Mesmer deserves a radical nerf for a brief period of being a top shelf class is invalid and self serving on the part of the Warrior poster.

Mesmer was chopped back so hard that it is in a worse position than it was before elite specs and HoT. That’s sad consiering I bought HoT (twice) specifically to have a finally competitive Mesmer.

ANET needs to compensate Mesmer in a big way for the nuke nerf.

Mesmer always countered warrior actually.

I find that statement unbelievable. Please explain. In particular please explain how a Mesmer countered a warrior prior to the heal signet nerf and how a Mesmer countered a pre nerf Hambow?