Guild Wars 2

Jelzouki.4128:

Cele ele and engi are a lot easier to kill than a shoutbow that has 27k HP and ridiculous cleansing.

False.

Cele ele is the hardest build to kill. Shoutbow is wrecked by stun heavy compositions and burst damage. Ele’s high protection and stability uptime even make it hard for either of those to stop them. And when all else fails…Lightning Flash and they’re gone.

As for Cele engi, true, they’re a little easier to kill, but in place of that they do absurd damage while still being really hard to kill. Plus Gear Shield and Overcharged shot are ridiculous skills that help them avoid a lot of damage they would otherwise take.

The only thing i dislike about cele is when i PLay s/d thief most cele builds crit more then what i can do.

Doesn’t the top teams in both NA and EU use 3 Berserker amulets? Maybe Cele amulet is a low tier problem?

Kagamiku.9731:

Jelzouki.4128:

Cele ele and engi are a lot easier to kill than a shoutbow that has 27k HP and ridiculous cleansing.

False.

Cele ele is the hardest build to kill. Shoutbow is wrecked by stun heavy compositions and burst damage. Ele’s high protection and stability uptime even make it hard for either of those to stop them. And when all else fails…Lightning Flash and they’re gone.

As for Cele engi, true, they’re a little easier to kill, but in place of that they do absurd damage while still being really hard to kill. Plus Gear Shield and Overcharged shot are ridiculous skills that help them avoid a lot of damage they would otherwise take.

Cele Engi can be harder to kill if they know how to jumping puzzle or bait your cds before you bait theirs. And if they use Vampirism + Elixir S, good luck catching them with a burst comp. I believe the guy you replied to is just basing his opinion on the bronze ELO level of play/has no competitive play presence.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

The only thing i dislike about cele is when i PLay s/d thief most cele builds crit more then what i can do.

A lot of times that has to do with might stacking. If a cele goes into ferocity line, because in spvp ferocity is weighed a bit differently, celestial can hit the softcap of 200% crit damage fairly easily. Then with 600-750 more power from might stacking, they really aren’t at a loss for stats damage wise compared to a thief. With fury a cele war can have something like a 45%+ chance to crit with 200% Crit damage and as much stats as a zerker ammy without might. So if they use a high damage coefficient with Boons up as a cele warrior like Final Thrust, it will hit hard as hell.

The problem with cele is that it enables meta where every build can do a bit of everything which leads to a fairly stale, sometimes oddly chaotic combat.

It also leaves more specialised classes like like Rangers and Necros that don’t have means of tanking or disengaging in the gutter having to rely on BS proc builds in order to stay remotely viable.

To be honest the meta builds themselves are fairly well balanced between themselves. If conditions were to somehow become more useful I think we would see all 8 profs out in a fairly decent shape.

Kagamiku.9731:

Jelzouki.4128:

Cele ele and engi are a lot easier to kill than a shoutbow that has 27k HP and ridiculous cleansing.

False.

Cele ele is the hardest build to kill. Shoutbow is wrecked by stun heavy compositions and burst damage. Ele’s high protection and stability uptime even make it hard for either of those to stop them. And when all else fails…Lightning Flash and they’re gone.

As for Cele engi, true, they’re a little easier to kill, but in place of that they do absurd damage while still being really hard to kill. Plus Gear Shield and Overcharged shot are ridiculous skills that help them avoid a lot of damage they would otherwise take.

Cele engi can’t do absurd damage unless they get right close to the enemy and the only classes that should be getting that close have adequate defense or the ability to disengage.

Overcharged shot has a short range of 400 and puts you further from the enemy. Its also a given when an engi has a rifle out and is within 400 range of you he is probably going to use it or some other nasty skill. It gets avoided a lot more than people realize and if it is avoided the engi still CCs himself and ends up further from the enemy. It is great for decapping points but is weak for focus fire as you often send the enemy out of the range of other party members.

Gear shield is good but most people forget that engi is a medium armor class. Its rare we get a chance to use it again when it comes just off cool down. (at least in spvp, even cele dies quick) It is used most of the time to run away or get in range of your opponent but its lackluster compared to the defensive abilities other classes have that allow you to attack while in use. Condi gets a lot more use out of it though… Cele needs to keep pressure on the enemy.

Spirigo.2897:

The problem with cele is that it enables meta where every build can do a bit of everything which leads to a fairly stale, sometimes oddly chaotic combat.

It also leaves more specialised classes like like Rangers and Necros that don’t have means of tanking or disengaging in the gutter having to rely on BS proc builds in order to stay remotely viable.

To be honest the meta builds themselves are fairly well balanced between themselves. If conditions were to somehow become more useful I think we would see all 8 profs out in a fairly decent shape.

There really is no reason for rangers to engage themselves with their ranged burst damage but with hunter’s shot, point blank shot and the pet CC, its actually very hard to engage a ranger.

As for Necros, fear and death shroud, at least it works well vs engi since we don’t have stability. Necros tank much better than celestial engi as well once gear shield is done its instant death, lol.

Celestial engi relies mostly on single target CC and close combat making them weak in 1v2.

Zunami.8560:

Spirigo.2897:

The problem with cele is that it enables meta where every build can do a bit of everything which leads to a fairly stale, sometimes oddly chaotic combat.

It also leaves more specialised classes like like Rangers and Necros that don’t have means of tanking or disengaging in the gutter having to rely on BS proc builds in order to stay remotely viable.

To be honest the meta builds themselves are fairly well balanced between themselves. If conditions were to somehow become more useful I think we would see all 8 profs out in a fairly decent shape.

There really is no reason for rangers to engage themselves with their ranged burst damage but with hunter’s shot, point blank shot and the pet CC, its actually very hard to engage a ranger.

As for Necros, fear and death shroud, at least it works well vs engi since we don’t have stability. Necros tank much better than celestial engi as well once gear shield is done its instant death, lol.

Celestial engi relies mostly on single target CC and close combat making them weak in 1v2.

I’m actually a little shocked that power Necros don’t see a lot of play. From personal experience playing one they seem to be rather strong.

I also have to agree with your point about Rangers. Which only makes me more confused as to why Necros don’t see more play seeing as they have similar playstyle to Rangers and suffer from much the same drawbacks. I suppose they are harder to play.

On a mildly unrelated note, venom share Thieves are the real MVPs.

Zunami.8560:

Cele engi can’t do absurd damage unless they get right close to the enemy and the only classes that should be getting that close have adequate defense or the ability to disengage.

That’s a no brainer, but any class fighting on point is going to be melted by a celestial ele. Generally it goes like this —> Overcharged shot --> Magnet —> prybar and/or nade spam and it’s a painful experience.

D/D ele and Shoutbow are pretty terrible if not in melee range. Especially shoutbow because most of their damage revolves around the LB firefield and the poison/bleed proc from their sigils. They’re certainly not going to kill anything that doesn’t want to fight them.

Overcharged shot has a short range of 400 and puts you further from the enemy. Its also a given when an engi has a rifle out and is within 400 range of you he is probably going to use it or some other nasty skill. It gets avoided a lot more than people realize and if it is avoided the engi still CCs himself and ends up further from the enemy. It is great for decapping points but is weak for focus fire as you often send the enemy out of the range of other party members.

What’s your point? I said OS helps sustain an engi because it has a short cooldown and has no tell which leads to the person fighting the engi to be on his kitten quite often. Most classes that try to make guesswork of when an engi is going to use OS are just going to end up blowing their dodges and regretting it.

Gear shield is good but most people forget that engi is a medium armor class. Its rare we get a chance to use it again when it comes just off cool down. (at least in spvp, even cele dies quick) It is used most of the time to run away or get in range of your opponent but its lackluster compared to the defensive abilities other classes have that allow you to attack while in use. Condi gets a lot more use out of it though… Cele needs to keep pressure on the enemy.

While the difference between heavy and medium armor is significant it does not play much role on a classes tanking potential. Ele is a light armor class and can tank harder than any heavy armor class when specced correctly.

Engi’s use gear shield multiple times during a single confrontation. You can trait it to have a 15 second CD, that’s insane. Other skills might have similar skills that allow you to attack while in use, but none have a 15 second cooldown. It’s by far the best shield skill. 20% of the time you’re impervious to damage, and the beauty of celestial builds is your conditions can still tic on them while they can’t do anything to you.

google.3709:

NO! the real issue is being trapped in the mist doing NOTHING, wondering how many cele you’re gonna fight for 4-15 mins everytime.

this x100000000000 times lol

Kagamiku.9731:

Jelzouki.4128:

Cele ele and engi are a lot easier to kill than a shoutbow that has 27k HP and ridiculous cleansing.

False.

Cele ele is the hardest build to kill. Shoutbow is wrecked by stun heavy compositions and burst damage. Ele’s high protection and stability uptime even make it hard for either of those to stop them. And when all else fails…Lightning Flash and they’re gone.

As for Cele engi, true, they’re a little easier to kill, but in place of that they do absurd damage while still being really hard to kill. Plus Gear Shield and Overcharged shot are ridiculous skills that help them avoid a lot of damage they would otherwise take.

False.

A shoutbow requires a much much larger burst to take down. An elementalist is a light armored class with less toughness, and the cele engi has less toughness as well as less healing than either of the two. A shoutbow has high toughness, good sustain and cleanse, and high hp. A shoutbow might be easier to “lockdown” than a elementalist because they dont have access to stab, unless they replace fear me, but still requires a tonne of damage to take out, not to mention “fear me” and sword 2 which make for excellent kiting.

complaints about cele are usually from zerkers who say cele is too hard to kill + has too much damage. ofc cele is hard to kill, they use a balanced amulet and often use multiple full defensive trait lines, that should make a build hard to kill. the so much damage complaint comes from the fact that zekers take a lot of damage from anyone, so the average sustained damage of cele feels huge. if you are not playing zerk they don’t do a lot of damage.

im all for the three Bs having a place in pvp teams, Bunker, Bruiser, Burst.

choovanski.5462:

complaints about cele are usually from zerkers who say cele is too hard to kill + has too much damage. ofc cele is hard to kill, they use a balanced amulet and often use multiple full defensive trait lines, that should make a build hard to kill. the so much damage complaint comes from the fact that zekers take a lot of damage from anyone, so the average sustained damage of cele feels huge. if you are not playing zerk they don’t do a lot of damage.

im all for the three Bs having a place in pvp teams, Bunker, Bruiser, Burst.

yeah the problem starts when bruisers do as much/more dmg than zerkers and might stacks have low priority from stripping/conversion and are covered by junk like regen/retal~

Cynz.9437:

choovanski.5462:

complaints about cele are usually from zerkers who say cele is too hard to kill + has too much damage. ofc cele is hard to kill, they use a balanced amulet and often use multiple full defensive trait lines, that should make a build hard to kill. the so much damage complaint comes from the fact that zekers take a lot of damage from anyone, so the average sustained damage of cele feels huge. if you are not playing zerk they don’t do a lot of damage.

im all for the three Bs having a place in pvp teams, Bunker, Bruiser, Burst.

yeah the problem starts when bruisers do as much/more dmg than zerkers and might stacks have low priority from stripping/conversion and are covered by junk like regen/retal~

Yeah, but they don’t do zerker damage to non zerkers. You won’t see celebrate ele burst a shoutbo like shatter mesmer or power necrosis can.

EDIT: autocorrect lol

Regardless, I do wish might and stab had high priority for boonrip.

choovanski.5462:

Cynz.9437:

choovanski.5462:

complaints about cele are usually from zerkers who say cele is too hard to kill + has too much damage. ofc cele is hard to kill, they use a balanced amulet and often use multiple full defensive trait lines, that should make a build hard to kill. the so much damage complaint comes from the fact that zekers take a lot of damage from anyone, so the average sustained damage of cele feels huge. if you are not playing zerk they don’t do a lot of damage.

im all for the three Bs having a place in pvp teams, Bunker, Bruiser, Burst.

yeah the problem starts when bruisers do as much/more dmg than zerkers and might stacks have low priority from stripping/conversion and are covered by junk like regen/retal~

Yeah, but they don’t do zerker damage to non zerkers. You won’t see celebrate ele burst a shoutbo like shatter mesmer or power necrosis can.

EDIT: autocorrect lol

you also won’t see zerker burst down non zerkers…. unless it is 2/3 vs 1

i have been tanking 3 dps on my shoutbow quite few times… it is nor really burst, more like wearing down CDs and locking down

All it takes is one good power necro or shatter mesmer or medi guard to take down a shoutbow..That’s not to say a shoutbow can’t kill them too, but they do enough damage to solo a shoutbow if they’re half decent.

I honestly don’t see how 3v1 is possible unless they were severely outplayed or they were all wearing tank gear. The auto attacks of 3 DPS are enough to bring down a shoutbow rather quickly.

Jelzouki.4128

A shoutbow requires a much much larger burst to take down. An elementalist is a light armored class with less toughness, and the cele engi has less toughness as well as less healing than either of the two. A shoutbow has high toughness, good sustain and cleanse, and high hp. A shoutbow might be easier to “lockdown” than a elementalist because they dont have access to stab, unless they replace fear me, but still requires a tonne of damage to take out, not to mention “fear me” and sword 2 which make for excellent kiting.

Yes, in its most simplistic form, warrior has the better stats. Yet all of that means little when ele’s have extremely high protection uptime. Also quite a bit of stability uptime as well. A shoutbow needs to choose between stability or fear me. If they opt for fear me they’re going to be trashed against stun heavy comps. It’s also their only CC so their opponent need only save one stunbreak for it and it’s never an issue for them. They also have zero protection. I’m not sure what an ele’s healing potential is capable of but they have so much access to healing I would not be surprised if they’re in the same ballpark as shoutbow. They also have an instant cast escape skill that ensures they can always escape. Cantrips and their four attunements +high protection and stability uptime is what puts Cele ele above shoutbow.

I play against both on a daily basis and while shoutbow is a strong contender I still find cele ele better at holding a point. They have less counters and they’re better at escaping death. You must have never seen a good Ele.

…Haaa..the old law of MMOs

Dear Devs do pls nerf rock, paper is fine and needs no change, it’s balanced

Regards

Scissor

Supreme.3164:

…Haaa..the old law of MMOs

Dear Devs do pls nerf rock, paper is fine and needs no change, it’s balanced

Regards

Scissor

To be quite fair, Cele is half of all three with no specific weaknesses.

Saiyan.1704:

Supreme.3164:

…Haaa..the old law of MMOs

Dear Devs do pls nerf rock, paper is fine and needs no change, it’s balanced

Regards

Scissor

To be quite fair, Cele is half of all three with no specific weaknesses.

You don’t understand.
You can nerf the cele amulet to the ground right now…in few hours people would come to the forum to complain about the builds.

I can beat people with a zerker amulet d/d, using same traits and you know what people will call me?…“celestial nab”

And this brings me to the 2nd law of MMOs

Everything that beats me..is OP

Supreme.3164:

Saiyan.1704:

Supreme.3164:

…Haaa..the old law of MMOs

Dear Devs do pls nerf rock, paper is fine and needs no change, it’s balanced

Regards

Scissor

To be quite fair, Cele is half of all three with no specific weaknesses.

You don’t understand.
You can nerf the cele amulet to the ground right now…in few hours people would come to the forum to complain about the builds.

I can beat people with a zerker amulet d/d, using same traits and you know what people will call me?…“celestial nab”

And this brings me to the 2nd law of MMOs

Everything that beats me..is OP

This happens so much. You can play a LB s/s Carrion warrior and still get called a cheese shoutbow celestial. Mostly because people don’t have a clue wen sadly don’t WANT to have a clue. They just want to blow off steam if they die.

I still find it ironic that people who play Zerkers think they’re in the right to make calls against an amulet that gets play with 3 builds when Zerker amulet is the go-to for basically every class otherwise and the core set up for other game modes. Don’t forget Zerker has more stats than it should compared to more standard amulets and is by far the most successful running amulet in pvp.

The way I honestly see it, sure, some builds could use a little less sustain, sure. But I’d rather fight a slightly more Tanky enemy that deals damage than one that deals even more damage and doesn’t need to rely on stats for defense because they have mechanics to avoid or block everything instead. I find evasion and teleport mechanics far far more cheesy than someone who just has a good amount of regen going for them. I’d also rather hit through a wall with a pick axe than try to hit a fly with one.

Kagamiku.9731:

All it takes is one good power necro or shatter mesmer or medi guard to take down a shoutbow..That’s not to say a shoutbow can’t kill them too, but they do enough damage to solo a shoutbow if they’re half decent.

I honestly don’t see how 3v1 is possible unless they were severely outplayed or they were all wearing tank gear. The auto attacks of 3 DPS are enough to bring down a shoutbow rather quickly.

Jelzouki.4128

A shoutbow requires a much much larger burst to take down. An elementalist is a light armored class with less toughness, and the cele engi has less toughness as well as less healing than either of the two. A shoutbow has high toughness, good sustain and cleanse, and high hp. A shoutbow might be easier to “lockdown” than a elementalist because they dont have access to stab, unless they replace fear me, but still requires a tonne of damage to take out, not to mention “fear me” and sword 2 which make for excellent kiting.

Yes, in its most simplistic form, warrior has the better stats. Yet all of that means little when ele’s have extremely high protection uptime. Also quite a bit of stability uptime as well. A shoutbow needs to choose between stability or fear me. If they opt for fear me they’re going to be trashed against stun heavy comps. It’s also their only CC so their opponent need only save one stunbreak for it and it’s never an issue for them. They also have zero protection. I’m not sure what an ele’s healing potential is capable of but they have so much access to healing I would not be surprised if they’re in the same ballpark as shoutbow. They also have an instant cast escape skill that ensures they can always escape. Cantrips and their four attunements +high protection and stability uptime is what puts Cele ele above shoutbow.

I play against both on a daily basis and while shoutbow is a strong contender I still find cele ele better at holding a point. They have less counters and they’re better at escaping death. You must have never seen a good Ele.

Exactly ^ I can kill a shoutbow on rabid 2kit. Slick shoes, nades, geo swap, the whole deal. cele just does not hit like rabid and zerk.

Zerkers need to stop complaing about taking damage, you’re on a glass cannon it’s how it works. Ofc someone who traited for sustain and uses a balanced amulet will have sustain and not die like a zerker, that’s what the build is built to do.

Kagamiku.9731:

Zunami.8560:

Cele engi can’t do absurd damage unless they get right close to the enemy and the only classes that should be getting that close have adequate defense or the ability to disengage.

That’s a no brainer, but any class fighting on point is going to be melted by a celestial ele. Generally it goes like this —> Overcharged shot --> Magnet —> prybar and/or nade spam and it’s a painful experience.

D/D ele and Shoutbow are pretty terrible if not in melee range. Especially shoutbow because most of their damage revolves around the LB firefield and the poison/bleed proc from their sigils. They’re certainly not going to kill anything that doesn’t want to fight them.

Overcharged shot has a short range of 400 and puts you further from the enemy. Its also a given when an engi has a rifle out and is within 400 range of you he is probably going to use it or some other nasty skill. It gets avoided a lot more than people realize and if it is avoided the engi still CCs himself and ends up further from the enemy. It is great for decapping points but is weak for focus fire as you often send the enemy out of the range of other party members.

What’s your point? I said OS helps sustain an engi because it has a short cooldown and has no tell which leads to the person fighting the engi to be on his kitten quite often. Most classes that try to make guesswork of when an engi is going to use OS are just going to end up blowing their dodges and regretting it.

Gear shield is good but most people forget that engi is a medium armor class. Its rare we get a chance to use it again when it comes just off cool down. (at least in spvp, even cele dies quick) It is used most of the time to run away or get in range of your opponent but its lackluster compared to the defensive abilities other classes have that allow you to attack while in use. Condi gets a lot more use out of it though… Cele needs to keep pressure on the enemy.

While the difference between heavy and medium armor is significant it does not play much role on a classes tanking potential. Ele is a light armor class and can tank harder than any heavy armor class when specced correctly.

Engi’s use gear shield multiple times during a single confrontation. You can trait it to have a 15 second CD, that’s insane. Other skills might have similar skills that allow you to attack while in use, but none have a 15 second cooldown. It’s by far the best shield skill. 20% of the time you’re impervious to damage, and the beauty of celestial builds is your conditions can still tic on them while they can’t do anything to you.

I’m not going to pull someone back on the point before a decap. Decap>kill.

That combo might work well on a thief spamming with confusion but its about the equivalent of a cele engi being hit with zerk rapid fire or being jumped by a thief. The minute pry bar is done that person is going to disengage till the confusions gone and they’ll likely to come back with full health. Engi can do things a lot nastier than that though… but don’t be expecting such an easy rotation.

As for gear shield, you can say whatever you want. I play other classes. I know what they have. People complain about overcharged shot, death shroud, unlimited invisibility, rampage, rapid fire at crazy distances, war hammer CC, necros numerous fears, lich form, mesmers teleporting onto ledges while their phantasms kill us… now go read my description of OC and tell me thats OP compared to everything these other classes have, a short range skill that you feel is useful because we can pull after it! With a skill from a toolkit, that is also using up a utility slot!

Spirigo.2897:

Zunami.8560:

Spirigo.2897:

The problem with cele is that it enables meta where every build can do a bit of everything which leads to a fairly stale, sometimes oddly chaotic combat.

It also leaves more specialised classes like like Rangers and Necros that don’t have means of tanking or disengaging in the gutter having to rely on BS proc builds in order to stay remotely viable.

To be honest the meta builds themselves are fairly well balanced between themselves. If conditions were to somehow become more useful I think we would see all 8 profs out in a fairly decent shape.

There really is no reason for rangers to engage themselves with their ranged burst damage but with hunter’s shot, point blank shot and the pet CC, its actually very hard to engage a ranger.

As for Necros, fear and death shroud, at least it works well vs engi since we don’t have stability. Necros tank much better than celestial engi as well once gear shield is done its instant death, lol.

Celestial engi relies mostly on single target CC and close combat making them weak in 1v2.

I’m actually a little shocked that power Necros don’t see a lot of play. From personal experience playing one they seem to be rather strong.

I also have to agree with your point about Rangers. Which only makes me more confused as to why Necros don’t see more play seeing as they have similar playstyle to Rangers and suffer from much the same drawbacks. I suppose they are harder to play.

On a mildly unrelated note, venom share Thieves are the real MVPs.

I tried a necro for a while, was a lot of fun! definitely not as easy as I thought…

Out of HUNDREDS of matches, I fought my first power necro yesterday. Caught me by surprise, they do nasty damage, lol.

Kagamiku.9731:

All it takes is one good power necro or shatter mesmer or medi guard to take down a shoutbow..That’s not to say a shoutbow can’t kill them too, but they do enough damage to solo a shoutbow if they’re half decent.

I honestly don’t see how 3v1 is possible unless they were severely outplayed or they were all wearing tank gear. The auto attacks of 3 DPS are enough to bring down a shoutbow rather quickly.

Jelzouki.4128

A shoutbow requires a much much larger burst to take down. An elementalist is a light armored class with less toughness, and the cele engi has less toughness as well as less healing than either of the two. A shoutbow has high toughness, good sustain and cleanse, and high hp. A shoutbow might be easier to “lockdown” than a elementalist because they dont have access to stab, unless they replace fear me, but still requires a tonne of damage to take out, not to mention “fear me” and sword 2 which make for excellent kiting.

Yes, in its most simplistic form, warrior has the better stats. Yet all of that means little when ele’s have extremely high protection uptime. Also quite a bit of stability uptime as well. A shoutbow needs to choose between stability or fear me. If they opt for fear me they’re going to be trashed against stun heavy comps. It’s also their only CC so their opponent need only save one stunbreak for it and it’s never an issue for them. They also have zero protection. I’m not sure what an ele’s healing potential is capable of but they have so much access to healing I would not be surprised if they’re in the same ballpark as shoutbow. They also have an instant cast escape skill that ensures they can always escape. Cantrips and their four attunements +high protection and stability uptime is what puts Cele ele above shoutbow.

I play against both on a daily basis and while shoutbow is a strong contender I still find cele ele better at holding a point. They have less counters and they’re better at escaping death. You must have never seen a good Ele.

wasn’t really that amazingly hard (compared to gameplay of some other classes)…. just rotating between CDs and kite around LoS

surely if i just stand still and don’t do anything, the character will go down…. however any class would really~

point is: you can not “burst down” current bruisers by yourself unless they let you~

It’s not about them “letting you” it’s about them outplaying you. You make it sound like they can’t knock down or immobilize or fear chain you and take half of your HP in a single burst. They don’t even need to do that if they’re smart about it. A good zerker can solo a bruiser. If 3 people are letting you LOS them they can’t be good. Sounds like they’re just chasing you around using auto attacks.