Guild Wars 2

This is the real maths.

Before the patch celestial gave 3066 stats plus usually 1000 stats from traits.

That was 4066.

3 stat was about 2232 plus 1000 stats from traits

Which was 3232.

So this gave an 824 stat advantage to celestial. Which was a 25.8% stat advantage.

In the new patch they will have a 30.66% stat advantage.

They buffed celestial.

They totally miscalculated how to “nerf” celestial. If you reduce the % advantage of celestial over other amulets you do not nerf it compared to what it was. Because you didnt used to get all your stats from celestial.

I even feel sorry for thieves now. gg lads.

Celestial lost a bit tankiness and got more damage. I wouldn’t call that a buff.

Morwath.9817:

Celestial lost a bit tankiness and got more damage. I wouldn’t call that a buff.

A celestial spec now has a bigger % advantage over all other amulets than before. This is maths not your opinion.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Morwath.9817:

Celestial lost a bit tankiness and got more damage. I wouldn’t call that a buff.

A celestial spec now has a bigger % advantage over all other amulets than before. This is maths not your opinion.

Math has nothing with purpose of celestials being hybirds of bunkers and roamers. While they are better at one of those roles they fill, they are worse at the other.

You realise that ALL amulets got stat gains right? Did you compare the new celestial to the new berserker?

Morwath.9817:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Morwath.9817:

Celestial lost a bit tankiness and got more damage. I wouldn’t call that a buff.

A celestial spec now has a bigger % advantage over all other amulets than before. This is maths not your opinion.

Math has nothing with purpose of celestials being hybirds of bunkers and roamers. While they are better at one of those roles they fill, they are worse at the other.

Whats your point? They give a bigger % stat advantage after patch than pre patch. Most people thought it would be nerfed by 10% relative to other amulets. It wasn’t. It now provides a bigger stat advantage. Opinions on the wider balance of celestial amulet is irrelevent to this discussion

Lol Henry!

Current cele ele has like close to 800 healing and 536 toughness, after patch cele ele will have 560 healing and 560 toughness, where is the buff?Also current cele ele has 17k+ HP, after patch it’ll have little more than 16k HP, no boon duration, condi dmg has the same deal as toughness.

@Morwath is right, cele will gain no buffs to defense but rather in offense, by contrast the nerfs will come for their defense and these nerfs will be tough

Lordrosicky.5813:

Morwath.9817:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Morwath.9817:

Celestial lost a bit tankiness and got more damage. I wouldn’t call that a buff.

A celestial spec now has a bigger % advantage over all other amulets than before. This is maths not your opinion.

Math has nothing with purpose of celestials being hybirds of bunkers and roamers. While they are better at one of those roles they fill, they are worse at the other.

Whats your point? They give a bigger % stat advantage after patch than pre patch. Most people thought it would be nerfed by 10% relative to other amulets. It wasn’t. It now provides a bigger stat advantage. Opinions on the wider balance of celestial amulet is irrelevent to this discussion

The % stat advantage of Celestial is actualy lower:

Sins.4782:

New stat totals:
3-stat amulets: 3000
4-stat amulets: 3220 (7.33% over base)
Celestial: 3920 (30.66% over base)

Old stat totals:
3-stat: 2232
Berserker’s: 2364 (5.9% over base)
Celestial: 3066 (37.37% over base)

Supreme.3164:

Lol Henry!

Current cele ele has like close to 800 healing and 536 toughness, after patch cele ele will have 560 healing and 560 toughness, where is the buff?Also current cele ele has 17k+ HP, after patch it’ll have little more than 16k HP, no boon duration, condi dmg has the same deal as toughness.

@Morwath is right, cele will gain no buffs to defense but rather in offense, by contrast the nerfs will come for their defense and these nerfs will be tough

Its more stats than ever before. Sure its more spread out but its still more stats relative to non-cele builds than ever before. They tried to nerf it thats the thing. They wanted to make it less of a stat advantage over other amulets. I think they just failed at doing it. Celestial will be better post-patch than pre-patch. Easily. More traits to make use of all the stats too. And just more stats relative to other amulets. 30% more rather than 25% more.

Who saw this coming? Idk who thought they would give celestial a larger percentage stat advantage over other builds. I didn’t. But anet have surprised us again!

Lordrosicky.5813:

Morwath.9817:

Celestial lost a bit tankiness and got more damage. I wouldn’t call that a buff.

A celestial spec now has a bigger % advantage over all other amulets than before. This is maths not your opinion.

uuh no, you could get 300 from traitline + 438 from amulet = 738 total

not you can only get 560 from amulet

And condition scaling changed.’celestial got a minor nerf, as did some of the core aspects of classes that took strong advantage of Celestial. No need for the doomsday stuff. Marauder and zerker will be just fine.

Morwath.9817:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Morwath.9817:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Morwath.9817:

Celestial lost a bit tankiness and got more damage. I wouldn’t call that a buff.

A celestial spec now has a bigger % advantage over all other amulets than before. This is maths not your opinion.

Math has nothing with purpose of celestials being hybirds of bunkers and roamers. While they are better at one of those roles they fill, they are worse at the other.

Whats your point? They give a bigger % stat advantage after patch than pre patch. Most people thought it would be nerfed by 10% relative to other amulets. It wasn’t. It now provides a bigger stat advantage. Opinions on the wider balance of celestial amulet is irrelevent to this discussion

The % stat advantage of Celestial is actualy lower:

Sins.4782:

New stat totals:
3-stat amulets: 3000
4-stat amulets: 3220 (7.33% over base)
Celestial: 3920 (30.66% over base)

Old stat totals:
3-stat: 2232
Berserker’s: 2364 (5.9% over base)
Celestial: 3066 (37.37% over base)

Thats cos you are failing in your maths the same way anet did.

Before amulets accounting for roughly 75% of stats. With the other 25% being an equal playing field. Now amulets account for 100% of stats. So a smaller stat difference in terms of the amulet equates to a larger overall stat difference because the previous equal 25% has been removed from the equation. You are making the exact same error arenanet made when balancing these amulets.

Supreme.3164:

Lol Henry!

Current cele ele has like close to 800 healing and 536 toughness, after patch cele ele will have 560 healing and 560 toughness, where is the buff?Also current cele ele has 17k+ HP, after patch it’ll have little more than 16k HP, no boon duration, condi dmg has the same deal as toughness.

@Morwath is right, cele will gain no buffs to defense but rather in offense, by contrast the nerfs will come for their defense and these nerfs will be tough

Let’s separate cele Engi/Warrior and cele Ele.

For Cele Engi/Warrior, they have enough defense, so sacrificing just a little bit for more offense is a buff for them.

For Cele Ele, their main survival is dodge and heal. Dogde Vigor got nerfed. Now both vitality and healing got nerfed with the new cele amulet. They don’t have the old sustain anymore.

Make sure you spell out what cele class you’re talking about, either Engi/Warrior or Ele. Just like when you talk about Zerker class, spell out Mesmer/Thief or zerker Necro.

ronpierce.2760:

And condition scaling changed.’celestial got a minor nerf, as did some of the core aspects of classes that took strong advantage of Celestial. No need for the doomsday stuff. Marauder and zerker will be just fine.

Irrelevant opinions. That is a balance discussion. I am not interested in balance discussions. I am just stating a FACT. That they tried to nerf celestial specs but now those specs will have a larger percentage stat advanatge than before the patch.

Lordrosicky.5813:

ronpierce.2760:

And condition scaling changed.’celestial got a minor nerf, as did some of the core aspects of classes that took strong advantage of Celestial. No need for the doomsday stuff. Marauder and zerker will be just fine.

Irrelevant opinions. That is a balance discussion. I am not interested in balance discussions. I am just stating a FACT. That they tried to nerf celestial specs but now those specs will have a larger percentage stat advanatge than before the patch.

If you aren’t interested in balance, then your opinion on what happened to it doesn’t matter.

ronpierce.2760:

Lordrosicky.5813:

ronpierce.2760:

And condition scaling changed.’celestial got a minor nerf, as did some of the core aspects of classes that took strong advantage of Celestial. No need for the doomsday stuff. Marauder and zerker will be just fine.

Irrelevant opinions. That is a balance discussion. I am not interested in balance discussions. I am just stating a FACT. That they tried to nerf celestial specs but now those specs will have a larger percentage stat advanatge than before the patch.

If you aren’t interested in balance, then your opinion on what happened to it doesn’t matter.

No because that isn’t the discussion. It will probably mean that, yes, because celestial has even more of a stat advantage as before then it will be EVEN BETTER than before. The balance will be even more favoured to celestial specs. But that is an arguement to have in another place. The point here is they said they were nerfing celestial amulet by around 10% but in fact because they cant do math they buffed it considerably.

Lordrosicky.5813:

ronpierce.2760:

And condition scaling changed.’celestial got a minor nerf, as did some of the core aspects of classes that took strong advantage of Celestial. No need for the doomsday stuff. Marauder and zerker will be just fine.

Irrelevant opinions. That is a balance discussion. I am not interested in balance discussions. I am just stating a FACT. That they tried to nerf celestial specs but now those specs will have a larger percentage stat advanatge than before the patch.

You’re making a moot point, yes sure in terms of numbers celestial amulet got obviously buffed ( 438 to 560 ) but in terms of overall balance, the cele spec got hit quite hard ( especially ele that counts on healing/boon duration even more than shoutbow and rifle enfi) so really your whole thread is pointless

ronpierce.2760:

Lordrosicky.5813:

ronpierce.2760:

And condition scaling changed.’celestial got a minor nerf, as did some of the core aspects of classes that took strong advantage of Celestial. No need for the doomsday stuff. Marauder and zerker will be just fine.

Irrelevant opinions. That is a balance discussion. I am not interested in balance discussions. I am just stating a FACT. That they tried to nerf celestial specs but now those specs will have a larger percentage stat advanatge than before the patch.

If you aren’t interested in balance, then your opinion on what happened to it doesn’t matter.

I thought by know you people would have been smart enough to ignore everything this guy says.

Supreme.3164:

Lordrosicky.5813:

ronpierce.2760:

And condition scaling changed.’celestial got a minor nerf, as did some of the core aspects of classes that took strong advantage of Celestial. No need for the doomsday stuff. Marauder and zerker will be just fine.

Irrelevant opinions. That is a balance discussion. I am not interested in balance discussions. I am just stating a FACT. That they tried to nerf celestial specs but now those specs will have a larger percentage stat advanatge than before the patch.

You’re making a moot point, yes sure in terms of numbers celestial amulet got obviously buffed ( 438 to 560 ) but in terms of overall balance, the cele spec got hit quite hard ( especially ele that counts on healing/boon duration even more than shoutbow and rifle enfi) so really your whole thread is pointless

You dont understand the maths of what I am saying. I said relative to other amulets.

Wow this is painful. Nobody gets this or are you all trolling :P? Celestial specs have a bigger stat advantage than previously. Because the removal of stats from traitlines makes your overall stats more dependent on your amulet. Thus if an amulet has a statistical advantage then the effect of that statistical advantage on your overall stats will be greater than before. Because now the amulet is worth a higher percentage of your overall stats. The amulet is now worth 100% of your stats. Previously it was worth 75%. I really can’t explain it in anymore easier terms for you all. You either get it or you dont.

Don’t forget you miss stuff like condi duration and boon duration from the old trait Lines.

1000 old stats is not really true, it depended on build.

Lordrosicky you fail at math, 100% of the stats coming from the amulet /w celestial means that you lose 178 points in 4 stats (the traitlines where you had grandmaster) and gain 122 in the remaining 6 stats (not accounting for stuff like boon duration or condi duration).

Your point that " If you reduce the % advantage of celestial over other amulets you do not nerf it compared to what it was. Because you didnt used to get all your stats from celestial." is invalid.

MarkPhilips.5169:

Don’t forget you miss stuff like condi duration and boon duration from the old trait Lines.

1000 old stats is not really true, it depended on build.

Yeh which is why I said roughly 1000. It varied like you say. Could be higher or lower. But those other stats still had value which was the same for all specs, irrespective of whether they ran celestial. So in fact the situation is worse than I presented it.

I was underestimating the buff they gave celestial

Lachanche.6859:

Lordrosicky you fail at math, 100% of the stats coming from the amulet /w celestial means that you lose 178 points in 4 stats (the traitlines where you had grandmaster) and gain 122 in the remaining 6 stats (not accounting for stuff like boon duration or condi duration).

Your point that " If you reduce the % advantage of celestial over other amulets you do not nerf it compared to what it was. Because you didnt used to get all your stats from celestial." is invalid.

Look up the word relative please.

they use 3-stat as baseline…. that’s where the old ~ 37% and the new ~30% comes from. So with cele compared to 3-stat, completely disregarding any other stats (which you should when talking about amulet-balance), the math is sound.

Old stats:

with 3-stat as baseline: 100/2232 = 0.0448
Now multiplied with cele-stats = 0.0448 * 3066 = ~137%

New Cele- Stats, again with 3-stat as basline: 100/3000 = 0.3 —> 0.3 * 3920 = ~130%

130<137
New<old
—> compared to what other amu’s provide, celestial amu got nerfed. QED!

plz don’t listen to what OP says if he can’t even perform basic math.

PowerBottom.5796:

they use 3-stat as baseline…. that’s where the old ~ 37% and the new ~30%. So compared to 3-stat, completely disregarding any other stats (which you should when talking about amulet-balance), the math is sound.

Old stats:

with 3-stat as baseline: 100/2232 = 0.0448
Now multiplied with cele-stats = 0.0448 * 3066 = ~137%

New Cele- Stats, again with 3-stat as basline: 100/3000 = 0.3 —> 0.3 * 3920 = ~130%

130<137
New<old
—> compared to what other amu’s provide, celestial amu got nerfed. QED!

But it didnt. This is the mistake anet made. They made your view and tried to nerf it using very weak reasoning. In reality celestial has a bigger stat advantage than before as I proved in the OP. Nothing else matters and is a technicality.

Henry, shhh, calm down.

Everyone has eyes and we will test it tomorrow. For now, take a dog for a walk.

love celestial anyway…zerker or celestial is the way to go imo good stuff, ps with condi buff (just you wait in team setups pvp/wvw roaming groups) you’re gonna want the celestial buff buddy….just you wait and see. unless you’re a condi spammer too ofc lal

Lordrosicky.5813:

PowerBottom.5796:

they use 3-stat as baseline…. that’s where the old ~ 37% and the new ~30%. So compared to 3-stat, completely disregarding any other stats (which you should when talking about amulet-balance), the math is sound.

Old stats:

with 3-stat as baseline: 100/2232 = 0.0448
Now multiplied with cele-stats = 0.0448 * 3066 = ~137%

New Cele- Stats, again with 3-stat as basline: 100/3000 = 0.3 —> 0.3 * 3920 = ~130%

130<137
New<old
—> compared to what other amu’s provide, celestial amu got nerfed. QED!

But it didnt. This is the mistake anet made. They made your view and tried to nerf it using very weak reasoning. In reality celestial has a bigger stat advantage than before as I proved in the OP. Nothing else matters and is a technicality.

You proved nothing in the OP…. show me exactly how you calculated it and I’ll change my view if it’s accurate.

Honestly i think celestial would be always really strong but we need to see how it will work on each class with the new trait system.

We need to consider the general balance puzzle not only a single piece.

LoL you talk about relative ? You, who looked at 3920 and said celestial got buffed without realizing that every amulet received an increment in stats, without realizing that relatively to other amulets celestial lost something compared to what was possible before ?

Just because you have an higher total it doesn’t mean you got stronger:
- all celestial builds are going to do less condition damage now (new scaling, less than 700 condi dmg means less dmg than you used to do).

they also become less tanky
- warrior loses 78 thoughness,178 healing and 178 vitality

- ele loses 178 vitality and 178 healing

- engi loses 178 vitality and 178 power(from explosives)

- everyone loses might duration
So basically you lose condi damage, you lose tankyness, all you gain is a lousy 122 power. Except for engi, engi loses power and condi dmg and gains 122 thoughness and 122 healing

And you STILL say that it was a buff ?

PowerBottom.5796:

Lordrosicky.5813:

PowerBottom.5796:

they use 3-stat as baseline…. that’s where the old ~ 37% and the new ~30%. So compared to 3-stat, completely disregarding any other stats (which you should when talking about amulet-balance), the math is sound.

Old stats:

with 3-stat as baseline: 100/2232 = 0.0448
Now multiplied with cele-stats = 0.0448 * 3066 = ~137%

New Cele- Stats, again with 3-stat as basline: 100/3000 = 0.3 —> 0.3 * 3920 = ~130%

130<137
New<old
—> compared to what other amu’s provide, celestial amu got nerfed. QED!

But it didnt. This is the mistake anet made. They made your view and tried to nerf it using very weak reasoning. In reality celestial has a bigger stat advantage than before as I proved in the OP. Nothing else matters and is a technicality.

You proved nothing in the OP…. show me exactly how you calculated it and I’ll change my view if it’s accurate.

OK,

Specs with celestial amulet used to get these stats:
Roughly 1000 stats from trait lines (often more) = 1000
From celestial amulet = 3066 (438*7)

Specs with, say, carrion amulet used to get these stats:
Roughly 1000 stats from trait lines (often more but lets be conservative and say 1k) = 1000
From carrion amulet = 2232

Total stats of specs with celestial amulet = 4066
Total stats of specs with carrion amulet = 3232
Difference in stats = 834
Percentage difference = 834/3232 = 25.8%

After patch:
Specs with celestial amulet = 3920
Specs with carrion amulet = 3000
Difference in stats = 920
Percentage difference = 920/3000 = 30.67%

Previous difference in stats when using celestial amulet vs when not using cele amulet = 25.8%
After patch difference in stats when using cele amulet vs when not using cele amulet = 30.67%

Therefore celestial amulet will provide an even bigger stat advantage post patch.

Conditions will be less effective if you are under 700condi dmg post patch.

I also believe the difference used to be around 36%, not 28%.

The vigor changes will also change things up, stop whining.

Lordrosicky.5813:

PowerBottom.5796:

Lordrosicky.5813:

PowerBottom.5796:

they use 3-stat as baseline…. that’s where the old ~ 37% and the new ~30%. So compared to 3-stat, completely disregarding any other stats (which you should when talking about amulet-balance), the math is sound.

Old stats:

with 3-stat as baseline: 100/2232 = 0.0448
Now multiplied with cele-stats = 0.0448 * 3066 = ~137%

New Cele- Stats, again with 3-stat as basline: 100/3000 = 0.3 —> 0.3 * 3920 = ~130%

130<137
New<old
—> compared to what other amu’s provide, celestial amu got nerfed. QED!

But it didnt. This is the mistake anet made. They made your view and tried to nerf it using very weak reasoning. In reality celestial has a bigger stat advantage than before as I proved in the OP. Nothing else matters and is a technicality.

You proved nothing in the OP…. show me exactly how you calculated it and I’ll change my view if it’s accurate.

OK,

Specs with celestial amulet used to get these stats:
Roughly 1000 stats from trait lines (often more) = 1000
From celestial amulet = 3066 (438*7)

Specs with, say, carrion amulet used to get these stats:
Roughly 1000 stats from trait lines (often more but lets be conservative and say 1k) = 1000
From carrion amulet = 2232

Total stats of specs with celestial amulet = 4066
Total stats of specs with carrion amulet = 3232
Difference in stats = 834
Percentage difference = 834/3232 = 25.8%

After patch:
Specs with celestial amulet = 3920
Specs with carrion amulet = 3000
Difference in stats = 920
Percentage difference = 920/3000 = 30.67%

Previous difference in stats when using celestial amulet vs when not using cele amulet = 25.8%
After patch difference in stats when using cele amulet vs when not using cele amulet = 30.67%

Therefore celestial amulet will provide an even bigger stat advantage post patch.

You’re purposely misleading people using a set of obscured information, we all get the number increase but you refuse to acknowledge the ramifications of this number changing, thus removing the most important aspect which is : balance.

All cele build will be significantly weaker after patch because sustain stats you currently get from traitlines will be gone and the amulet alone, even with the buffs will not be enough to guarantee the same level of survivability that we get now; the devs just made sure the amulet would still be somehow usable in PvP, only not overly present as now.

As I have said we all get your point, it’s correct but it’s pointless as you only speak in a vacuum anyway

Lordrosicky.5813:

PowerBottom.5796:

Lordrosicky.5813:

PowerBottom.5796:

they use 3-stat as baseline…. that’s where the old ~ 37% and the new ~30%. So compared to 3-stat, completely disregarding any other stats (which you should when talking about amulet-balance), the math is sound.

Old stats:

with 3-stat as baseline: 100/2232 = 0.0448
Now multiplied with cele-stats = 0.0448 * 3066 = ~137%

New Cele- Stats, again with 3-stat as basline: 100/3000 = 0.3 —> 0.3 * 3920 = ~130%

130<137
New<old
—> compared to what other amu’s provide, celestial amu got nerfed. QED!

But it didnt. This is the mistake anet made. They made your view and tried to nerf it using very weak reasoning. In reality celestial has a bigger stat advantage than before as I proved in the OP. Nothing else matters and is a technicality.

You proved nothing in the OP…. show me exactly how you calculated it and I’ll change my view if it’s accurate.

OK,

Specs with celestial amulet used to get these stats:
Roughly 1000 stats from trait lines (often more) = 1000
From celestial amulet = 3066 (438*7)

Specs with, say, carrion amulet used to get these stats:
Roughly 1000 stats from trait lines (often more but lets be conservative and say 1k) = 1000
From carrion amulet = 2232

Total stats of specs with celestial amulet = 4066
Total stats of specs with carrion amulet = 3232
Difference in stats = 834
Percentage difference = 834/3232 = 25.8%

After patch:
Specs with celestial amulet = 3920
Specs with carrion amulet = 3000
Difference in stats = 920
Percentage difference = 920/3000 = 30.67%

Previous difference in stats when using celestial amulet vs when not using cele amulet = 25.8%
After patch difference in stats when using cele amulet vs when not using cele amulet = 30.67%

Therefore celestial amulet will provide an even bigger stat advantage post patch.

Isn’t it frustrating when people don’t understand what you’re trying to say?

That said, I agree with the poster above me. At the current time there are other factors that you aren’t considering when taking overall balance into account that might actually harm celestial builds when considered as a whole, irrespective of their relatively increased stat bonuses over other amulets.

Supreme.3164:

Lordrosicky.5813:

PowerBottom.5796:

Lordrosicky.5813:

PowerBottom.5796:

they use 3-stat as baseline…. that’s where the old ~ 37% and the new ~30%. So compared to 3-stat, completely disregarding any other stats (which you should when talking about amulet-balance), the math is sound.

Old stats:

with 3-stat as baseline: 100/2232 = 0.0448
Now multiplied with cele-stats = 0.0448 * 3066 = ~137%

New Cele- Stats, again with 3-stat as basline: 100/3000 = 0.3 —> 0.3 * 3920 = ~130%

130<137
New<old
—> compared to what other amu’s provide, celestial amu got nerfed. QED!

But it didnt. This is the mistake anet made. They made your view and tried to nerf it using very weak reasoning. In reality celestial has a bigger stat advantage than before as I proved in the OP. Nothing else matters and is a technicality.

You proved nothing in the OP…. show me exactly how you calculated it and I’ll change my view if it’s accurate.

OK,

Specs with celestial amulet used to get these stats:
Roughly 1000 stats from trait lines (often more) = 1000
From celestial amulet = 3066 (438*7)

Specs with, say, carrion amulet used to get these stats:
Roughly 1000 stats from trait lines (often more but lets be conservative and say 1k) = 1000
From carrion amulet = 2232

Total stats of specs with celestial amulet = 4066
Total stats of specs with carrion amulet = 3232
Difference in stats = 834
Percentage difference = 834/3232 = 25.8%

After patch:
Specs with celestial amulet = 3920
Specs with carrion amulet = 3000
Difference in stats = 920
Percentage difference = 920/3000 = 30.67%

Previous difference in stats when using celestial amulet vs when not using cele amulet = 25.8%
After patch difference in stats when using cele amulet vs when not using cele amulet = 30.67%

Therefore celestial amulet will provide an even bigger stat advantage post patch.

You’re purposely misleading people using a set of obscured information, we all get the number increase but you refuse to acknowledge the ramifications of this number changing, thus removing the most important aspect which is : balance.

All cele build will be significantly weaker after patch because sustain stats you currently get from traitlines will be gone and the amulet alone, even with the buffs will not be enough to guarantee the same level of survivability that we get now; the devs just made sure the amulet would still be somehow usable in PvP, only not overly present as now.

As I have said we all get your point, it’s correct but it’s pointless as you only speak in a vacuum anyway

No most people dont get my point hence why they all say “nah brah they nerfed cele by 7%!!11!!”.

But I respect your post, at least you get it. You could be right. But one thing I learnt during the cele era was that 25% more stats was strong. And 30% more has the potential to be even stronger. Also more traits = more ways to use all the stats. If they want to go tanky all cele specs can just spec into more tanky traits without giving up too much DPS>

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Lordrosicky.5813:

PowerBottom.5796:

Lordrosicky.5813:

PowerBottom.5796:

they use 3-stat as baseline…. that’s where the old ~ 37% and the new ~30%. So compared to 3-stat, completely disregarding any other stats (which you should when talking about amulet-balance), the math is sound.

Old stats:

with 3-stat as baseline: 100/2232 = 0.0448
Now multiplied with cele-stats = 0.0448 * 3066 = ~137%

New Cele- Stats, again with 3-stat as basline: 100/3000 = 0.3 —> 0.3 * 3920 = ~130%

130<137
New<old
—> compared to what other amu’s provide, celestial amu got nerfed. QED!

But it didnt. This is the mistake anet made. They made your view and tried to nerf it using very weak reasoning. In reality celestial has a bigger stat advantage than before as I proved in the OP. Nothing else matters and is a technicality.

You proved nothing in the OP…. show me exactly how you calculated it and I’ll change my view if it’s accurate.

OK,

Specs with celestial amulet used to get these stats:
Roughly 1000 stats from trait lines (often more) = 1000
From celestial amulet = 3066 (438*7)

Specs with, say, carrion amulet used to get these stats:
Roughly 1000 stats from trait lines (often more but lets be conservative and say 1k) = 1000
From carrion amulet = 2232

Total stats of specs with celestial amulet = 4066
Total stats of specs with carrion amulet = 3232
Difference in stats = 834
Percentage difference = 834/3232 = 25.8%

After patch:
Specs with celestial amulet = 3920
Specs with carrion amulet = 3000
Difference in stats = 920
Percentage difference = 920/3000 = 30.67%

Previous difference in stats when using celestial amulet vs when not using cele amulet = 25.8%
After patch difference in stats when using cele amulet vs when not using cele amulet = 30.67%

Therefore celestial amulet will provide an even bigger stat advantage post patch.

Isn’t it frustrating when people don’t understand what you’re trying to say?

That said, I agree with the poster above me. At the current time there are other factors that you aren’t considering when taking overall balance into account that might actually harm celestial builds when considered as a whole, irrespective of their relatively increased stat bonuses over other amulets.

Yeh the balance of the actual amulet is another discussion that cannot be found without testing. However, giving a bigger stat advantage than before is, imo, an unintential oversight by anet. They made the same mistake as everyone in this thread.

And yeh it is frustrating lol

Well his numbers do seem to be correct. If you make the calculation based on the total value of all the attributes after equipping the amulet and allocating all the traits (which is the relevant number, since this what you will actually be playing with), it would seem like a relative buff for celestial amulet compared to the three-stat ones.

Two points why this might not be quite as decisive now (hopefully it is not, since I personally despise celestial).

Firstly, the ‘pure’ amulets and the fact that you don’t have to spec into attributes you don’t need through traits will now allow builds to be more focused. One can expect that burst damage of power builds, condi damage of condi builds and tankiness of bunker builds can all be somewhat higher now.

Secondly, so many traits are being introduced that seem broken (as in op) that there are much greater problems right now for balance.

Yes they can be more tanky than before but they won’t have the healing to sustain that tankiness unless they take healing power runes thus making them less dps/bunker oriented; eles use Signet of restoration as main healing skill, which is 100% healing power based( respect to warrior healing signet which will get nerfed anyway), the overall capability of cele eles to recover from damage will go down, not by lot but it’ll go down

Cele builds won’t go anyway, they’ll still be somehow strong, but stronger than now?..definitely not

Tissitra.4153:

Well his numbers do seem to be correct. If you make the calculation based on the total value of all the attributes after equipping the amulet and allocating all the traits (which is the relevant number, since this what you will actually be playing with), it would seem like a relative buff for celestial amulet compared to the three-stat ones.

Two points why this might not be quite as decisive now (hopefully it is not, since I personally despise celestial).

Firstly, the ‘pure’ amulets and the fact that you don’t have to spec into attributes you don’t need through traits will now allow builds to be more focused. One can expect that burst damage of power builds, condi damage of condi builds and tankiness of bunker builds can all be somewhat higher now.

Secondly, so many traits are being introduced that seem broken (as in op) that there are much greater problems right now for balance.

Its just they needed to nerf celestials stat advantage over non-celestial specs. They didn’t do this. In fact they did the opposite and gave it more stats. This is horrifying tbh. Celestial needed to be bought back into line.

Supreme.3164:

Yes they can be more tanky than before but they won’t have the healing to sustain that tankiness unless they take healing power runes thus making them less dps/bunker oriented; eles use Signet of restoration as main healing skill, which is 100% healing power based( respect to warrior healing signet which will get nerfed anyway), the overall capability of cele eles to recover from damage will go down, not by lot but it’ll go down

Cele builds won’t go anyway, they’ll still be somehow strong, but stronger than now?..definitely not

The lack of boon duration helps too. But I still think they tried to nerf celestial, and failed at the maths and buffed it instead. Which is pretty funny.

The devs find themselves between the hammer and the nail, they can’t really overnerf or overbuff the cele amulet, the concept itself is part of gw2 gameplay, removing cele amulet would not remove hybrid professions from gw2 and as such hybrid builds ( capable of doing a bit of everything ) would still be present; personally I don’t think cele build will dominate pvp more than now ( if everything they will be less present ), we have now enough amulets to make things more interesting for everybody

If you’re going to take that stance, they buffed everything else too.

Celestial needs to be toned down, for sure, but outright gutting it isn’t a good answer either, IMO.

Okay, your math looks right if you add the base-stats, but didn’t ANet say that (out of the official patchnotes) "Each profession’s attributes will be updated to have half of their functionality be part of a specialization and half of their functionality will be a baseline for that profession. "

So, first of all, they buffed the base-stats up to 1000 (from like 930ish or sth?), which is already a number you didn’t add to the new stats (you just looked at the amu’s). Then, If I read the patch-notes correctly, there will be even more stat-gains outside the amu depending on your spec’s.

So I think you didn’t use all the numbers from the new stats and forgot to add the additional stats we get after the patch outside of the stats from the amu’s.

Instead of looking at cele stats which doesnt look all that high actually, we should take a look at fire field and it ez might stacking.

Supreme.3164:

The devs find themselves between the hammer and the nail, they can’t really overnerf or overbuff the cele amulet, the concept itself is part of gw2 gameplay, removing cele amulet would not remove hybrid professions from gw2 and as such hybrid builds ( capable of doing a bit of everything ) would still be present; personally I don’t think cele build will dominate pvp more than now ( if everything they will be less present ), we have now enough amulets to make things more interesting for everybody

Well I find the current state of balance (just prior to the changes) not good at all. I understand that every class is supposed to be viable in many roles, hower thanks to celestial there are currently JUST TWO roles that are fully viable: celestial hybrid and pure power. Yes, I agree that a profession should be able to fulfill different roles, but once the same BUILD can be effective at anything, you end up with no build diversity at all.

IMO they should have really nerfed it strongly. People played something else before it was buffed and would switch to something else now. It would still be better for the game in the long term than being eternally stuck with what we have now.

Actually the math regarding percentages above doesn’t give an accurate perspective, because you didn’t calculate in the base level 80 stats. It’s true that Celestial amulet will be buffed, to give an overall 13.14% stat advantage over someone using a 3-stat amulet. However, this an increase of only 1.01% from the 12.13% stat advantage that Celestial has today. This math was done with the assumption that all current trait lines give you 70 stats per point invested (50 + 50, but multiply that by 0.7 because only 7/10 of the stats that trait lines give you are stats that amulets can increase). Full math breakdown below:

Old Formula: Base + Trait + Amulet
Old Base: 916 * 4 = 3664
Old Trait: 70 * 14 = 980
Old 3-Stat Amulets: 3664 + 980 + (932 + 650 + 650) = 6876
Old 4-Stat Amulets: 3664 + 980 + (932 + 650 + 451 + 331) = 6988 (1.63% advantage)
Old Celestial Amulet: 3664 + 980 + (438 * 7) = 7710 (12.13% advantage)

New Formula: Base + Amulet
New Base: 1000 * 4 = 4000
New 3-Stat Amulets: 4000 + (1200 + 900 + 900) = 7000
New 4-Stat Amulets: 4000 + (1050 + 1050 + 560 + 560) = 7220 (3.14% advantage)
New Celestial Amulet: 4000 + (560 * 7) = 7920 (13.14% advantage)

cymerdown.4103:

Actually the math regarding percentages above doesn’t give an accurate perspective, because you didn’t calculate in the base level 80 stats. It’s true that Celestial amulet will be buffed, to give an overall 13.14% stat advantage over someone using a 3-stat amulet. However, this an increase of only 1.01% from the 12.13% stat advantage that Celestial has today. This math was done with the assumption that all current trait lines give you 70 stats per point invested (50 + 50, but multiply that by 0.7 because only 7/10 of the stats that trait lines give you are stats that amulets can increase). Full math breakdown below:

Old Formula: Base + Trait + Amulet
Old Base: 916 * 4 = 3664
Old Trait: 70 * 14 = 980
Old 3-Stat Amulets: 3664 + 980 + (932 + 650 + 650) = 6876
Old 4-Stat Amulets: 3664 + 980 + (932 + 650 + 451 + 331) = 6988 (1.63% advantage)
Old Celestial Amulet: 3664 + 980 + (438 * 7) = 7710 (12.13% advantage)

New Formula: Base + Amulet
New Base: 1000 * 4 = 4000
New 3-Stat Amulets: 4000 + (1200 + 900 + 900) = 7000
New 4-Stat Amulets: 4000 + (1050 + 1050 + 560 + 560) = 7220 (3.14% advantage)
New Celestial Amulet: 4000 + (560 * 7) = 7920 (13.14% advantage)

Yeh, this seems good to me. Either way, I was under the impression they were going to nerf the stat advanatage. Not buff it. I think this is an oversight. Celestial is too strong now. Giving it more stats in comparison to non-cele builds will not help

@Henry: agreed on that, I was hoping the same, especially after I believe Grouch had said that a nerf of ~10% was likely. I guess that decision got changed somewhere along the road.

cymerdown.4103:

@Henry: agreed on that, I was hoping the same, especially after I believe Grouch had said that a nerf of ~10% was likely. I guess that decision got changed somewhere along the road.

That is kind of my point though. I don’t think it was changed along the road. I think they just thought about it in a narrow minded kind of way. So I am hoping the balance patch after this one = we get the cele nerf. As said here:

Josh Davis.6015:

The amulets will be rebalanced to compensate for the loss of stats originally gained from trait lines.

This is probably as good of a place as any to mention that we’ll also be using this opportunity to rebalance PvP’s celestial amulet to be slightly less effective. We’re probably looking at a 10%~ decrease in overall stats, but this number can change as we draw closer to releasing the core specialization changes.

Lordrosicky.5813:

cymerdown.4103:

@Henry: agreed on that, I was hoping the same, especially after I believe Grouch had said that a nerf of ~10% was likely. I guess that decision got changed somewhere along the road.

That is kind of my point though. I don’t think it was changed along the road. I think they just thought about it in a narrow minded kind of way. So I am hoping the balance patch after this one = we get the cele nerf. As said here:

Josh Davis.6015:

The amulets will be rebalanced to compensate for the loss of stats originally gained from trait lines.

This is probably as good of a place as any to mention that we’ll also be using this opportunity to rebalance PvP’s celestial amulet to be slightly less effective. We’re probably looking at a 10%~ decrease in overall stats, but this number can change as we draw closer to releasing the core specialization changes.

This is an interesting point, I don’t see a 10% decrease anywhere.