Guild Wars 2

“Celestial amulet currently gives +438 of every stat in PVP, or 3066 total.

We’re losing 1400 total stats from trait lines (for the sake of argument I’m ignoring condition duration / boon duration).

So we’re losing 45.7% of our total stats, excluding gear. Assuming the Celstial amulet is buffed to equal exactly the amount of stats lost, that means PVP Celestial should add +638 of every stat, minus 10%, equals +574 of every stat on the final PVP Celestial amulet after these changes, or +136 compared to current amulet.

However, character stats are also being raised to baseline 1000 instead of 926, or +74 to power/precision/toughness/vitality, so 296 extra stats total.

So, theoretically

Celestial Rifle Engineer meta build (6/0/0/4/4)

will lose 300 power and gain 210 back for a total of -90 power or -9% power damage nerf

will gain 136 condition damage or +12% condition damage buff

will lose 200 ferocity and gain back 136 for a total of -4% critical damage nerf

will gain 210 precision or +10% crit chance

This means an overall total gain of +18% damage from critical hits over time (less power, less ferocity, more precision), or net +9% buff to power damage total

will lose 200 toughness and gain 210 back for a total of +10 toughness

will lose 200 vitality and gain 210 back for a total of +10 vitality

will lose 200 healing power and gain 136 back for a total of -64 healing power

TL;DR assuming Arenanet balance Celestial amulet to account for 100% of the stats lost due to trait changes, for Engineers at least this Celestial nerf combined with HOT changes is technically a massive buff.

EDIT: Something I should mention just incase people get mad about this “buff”, remember that all the other amulets are being buffed in exactly the same way. For example, the Thief D/P Panic Strike meta build will lose 300 power but gain 622 in return (!) for a total of +322 power (and they lose basically 0% survivability since they don’t spec into vitality/toughness). Notice that Celestial Engineer survivability remains approximately the same while Thief DPS will be buffed by something like 30% (or more).

Pure DPS amulets are getting a lot more DPS, pure bunker amulets are getting a lot more survivability. In theory. This is still an overall nerf to Engineer effectiveness.

Again, this is all complete theory, and it depends on how Arenanet is going to balance the loss of condition/boon duration."

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/33txr5/cele_amulet_will_receive_a_10_overall_stat_nerf/cqoe1gx

Roe.3679:

Lordrosicky.5813:

cymerdown.4103:

@Henry: agreed on that, I was hoping the same, especially after I believe Grouch had said that a nerf of ~10% was likely. I guess that decision got changed somewhere along the road.

That is kind of my point though. I don’t think it was changed along the road. I think they just thought about it in a narrow minded kind of way. So I am hoping the balance patch after this one = we get the cele nerf. As said here:

Josh Davis.6015:

The amulets will be rebalanced to compensate for the loss of stats originally gained from trait lines.

This is probably as good of a place as any to mention that we’ll also be using this opportunity to rebalance PvP’s celestial amulet to be slightly less effective. We’re probably looking at a 10%~ decrease in overall stats, but this number can change as we draw closer to releasing the core specialization changes.

This is an interesting point, I don’t see a 10% decrease anywhere.

They didn’t do it because Celestial can’t hit 200% crit damage and can’t hit the Condi dmg break point, and lost boon/condi durations. Those builds in general are just losing potency. They probably just simply realized it wasn’t necessary to maintain balance anymore, which is the goal here.

ronpierce.2760:

Roe.3679:

Lordrosicky.5813:

cymerdown.4103:

@Henry: agreed on that, I was hoping the same, especially after I believe Grouch had said that a nerf of ~10% was likely. I guess that decision got changed somewhere along the road.

That is kind of my point though. I don’t think it was changed along the road. I think they just thought about it in a narrow minded kind of way. So I am hoping the balance patch after this one = we get the cele nerf. As said here:

Josh Davis.6015:

The amulets will be rebalanced to compensate for the loss of stats originally gained from trait lines.

This is probably as good of a place as any to mention that we’ll also be using this opportunity to rebalance PvP’s celestial amulet to be slightly less effective. We’re probably looking at a 10%~ decrease in overall stats, but this number can change as we draw closer to releasing the core specialization changes.

This is an interesting point, I don’t see a 10% decrease anywhere.

They didn’t do it because Celestial can’t hit 200% crit damage and can’t hit the Condi dmg break point, and lost boon/condi durations. Those builds in general are just losing potency. They probably just simply realized it wasn’t necessary to maintain balance anymore, which is the goal here.

Almost every build lost boon/condi durations. Some of the things that are toned down for cele are toned down for everyone.

ronpierce.2760:

Roe.3679:

Lordrosicky.5813:

cymerdown.4103:

@Henry: agreed on that, I was hoping the same, especially after I believe Grouch had said that a nerf of ~10% was likely. I guess that decision got changed somewhere along the road.

That is kind of my point though. I don’t think it was changed along the road. I think they just thought about it in a narrow minded kind of way. So I am hoping the balance patch after this one = we get the cele nerf. As said here:

Josh Davis.6015:

The amulets will be rebalanced to compensate for the loss of stats originally gained from trait lines.

This is probably as good of a place as any to mention that we’ll also be using this opportunity to rebalance PvP’s celestial amulet to be slightly less effective. We’re probably looking at a 10%~ decrease in overall stats, but this number can change as we draw closer to releasing the core specialization changes.

This is an interesting point, I don’t see a 10% decrease anywhere.

They didn’t do it because Celestial can’t hit 200% crit damage and can’t hit the Condi dmg break point, and lost boon/condi durations. Those builds in general are just losing potency. They probably just simply realized it wasn’t necessary to maintain balance anymore, which is the goal here.

The break point is like 750, right?

That’s very easy to do with might stacking.

560 from celestial + 6 might stacks…and you have it.

zber.4980:

“Celestial amulet currently gives +438 of every stat in PVP, or 3066 total.

We’re losing 1400 total stats from trait lines (for the sake of argument I’m ignoring condition duration / boon duration).

So we’re losing 45.7% of our total stats, excluding gear. Assuming the Celstial amulet is buffed to equal exactly the amount of stats lost, that means PVP Celestial should add +638 of every stat, minus 10%, equals +574 of every stat on the final PVP Celestial amulet after these changes, or +136 compared to current amulet.

However, character stats are also being raised to baseline 1000 instead of 926, or +74 to power/precision/toughness/vitality, so 296 extra stats total.

So, theoretically

Celestial Rifle Engineer meta build (6/0/0/4/4)

will lose 300 power and gain 210 back for a total of -90 power or -9% power damage nerf

will gain 136 condition damage or +12% condition damage buff

will lose 200 ferocity and gain back 136 for a total of -4% critical damage nerf

will gain 210 precision or +10% crit chance

This means an overall total gain of +18% damage from critical hits over time (less power, less ferocity, more precision), or net +9% buff to power damage total

will lose 200 toughness and gain 210 back for a total of +10 toughness

will lose 200 vitality and gain 210 back for a total of +10 vitality

will lose 200 healing power and gain 136 back for a total of -64 healing power

TL;DR assuming Arenanet balance Celestial amulet to account for 100% of the stats lost due to trait changes, for Engineers at least this Celestial nerf combined with HOT changes is technically a massive buff.

EDIT: Something I should mention just incase people get mad about this “buff”, remember that all the other amulets are being buffed in exactly the same way. For example, the Thief D/P Panic Strike meta build will lose 300 power but gain 622 in return (!) for a total of +322 power (and they lose basically 0% survivability since they don’t spec into vitality/toughness). Notice that Celestial Engineer survivability remains approximately the same while Thief DPS will be buffed by something like 30% (or more).

Pure DPS amulets are getting a lot more DPS, pure bunker amulets are getting a lot more survivability. In theory. This is still an overall nerf to Engineer effectiveness.

Again, this is all complete theory, and it depends on how Arenanet is going to balance the loss of condition/boon duration."

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/33txr5/cele_amulet_will_receive_a_10_overall_stat_nerf/cqoe1gx

Engi loses both condi duration AND boon duration altough engi never used might stacking.

The nerf will be way greater to build like shoutbow and cele ele, since they needed might stacking to keep the pressure.

Tbh it depends way more on sigils runes, if they will be nerfed prolly hybrid builds will be deleted unless u go carrion or rampager ( power condi would both reach the cap).

Rampager will be uber strong on certain builds ( like necs and engi) but survivability will be bad like it should.

I don’t really see celestial buff as a problem, it will prolly suck with new scaling and no condi/boon duration, unless they keep 10-15 might stacks costantly ( kinda hard with no boon duration).

Again it all breaks down to sigils and runes.

That’s what we all hope will be nerfed into the ground.

Game may became skill based again FOR REAL.

Celestial builds with random low damage condi splash will be a liability tomorrow
Celestial is nerfed in regards to the: boon to condis and condis in to boons patching
The math doesn’t really matter
Unless you run serious condi builds, tossing weak condis will punish your team

Cele condi’s are stronger than they were before. We only had 438 condi damage before. Even with the new formula, 560 condi damage will do more damage than 438 did before. With might stacks or vulnerability it will be much higher damage than it was before.

Drath.4750:

Cele condi’s are stronger than they were before. We only had 438 condi damage before. Even with the new formula, 560 condi damage will do more damage than 438 did before. With might stacks or vulnerability it will be much higher damage than it was before.

Yeah, not sure why people are saying cele builds will lack enough condition damage to do enough damage with them. If I recall, 750 condition damage is where you need to be in order to do the same amount of condition damage as before. That’s 560 from celestial and +6 might stacks. That’s ridiculously easy to obtain for every celestial build. Except maybe engineer, but even they can manage 6.

Drath.4750:

Cele condi’s are stronger than they were before. We only had 438 condi damage before. Even with the new formula, 560 condi damage will do more damage than 438 did before. With might stacks or vulnerability it will be much higher damage than it was before.

You need to read about what happens now when a character converts your conditions in to boons: http://dulfy.net/2015/06/16/gw2-june-23-specialization-changes/

This condi meta everyone is worried about, isn’t going to happen. Raw DPS will still be the reliable DPS and weak to medium level condis will only punish you in the presence of Guardians & Necromancers.

Aren’t they increasing the base stats for classes to make up for the loss of trait stats?

Mrbig.8019:

zber.4980:

“Celestial amulet currently gives +438 of every stat in PVP, or 3066 total.

We’re losing 1400 total stats from trait lines (for the sake of argument I’m ignoring condition duration / boon duration).

So we’re losing 45.7% of our total stats, excluding gear. Assuming the Celstial amulet is buffed to equal exactly the amount of stats lost, that means PVP Celestial should add +638 of every stat, minus 10%, equals +574 of every stat on the final PVP Celestial amulet after these changes, or +136 compared to current amulet.

However, character stats are also being raised to baseline 1000 instead of 926, or +74 to power/precision/toughness/vitality, so 296 extra stats total.

So, theoretically

Celestial Rifle Engineer meta build (6/0/0/4/4)

will lose 300 power and gain 210 back for a total of -90 power or -9% power damage nerf

will gain 136 condition damage or +12% condition damage buff

will lose 200 ferocity and gain back 136 for a total of -4% critical damage nerf

will gain 210 precision or +10% crit chance

This means an overall total gain of +18% damage from critical hits over time (less power, less ferocity, more precision), or net +9% buff to power damage total

will lose 200 toughness and gain 210 back for a total of +10 toughness

will lose 200 vitality and gain 210 back for a total of +10 vitality

will lose 200 healing power and gain 136 back for a total of -64 healing power

TL;DR assuming Arenanet balance Celestial amulet to account for 100% of the stats lost due to trait changes, for Engineers at least this Celestial nerf combined with HOT changes is technically a massive buff.

EDIT: Something I should mention just incase people get mad about this “buff”, remember that all the other amulets are being buffed in exactly the same way. For example, the Thief D/P Panic Strike meta build will lose 300 power but gain 622 in return (!) for a total of +322 power (and they lose basically 0% survivability since they don’t spec into vitality/toughness). Notice that Celestial Engineer survivability remains approximately the same while Thief DPS will be buffed by something like 30% (or more).

Pure DPS amulets are getting a lot more DPS, pure bunker amulets are getting a lot more survivability. In theory. This is still an overall nerf to Engineer effectiveness.

Again, this is all complete theory, and it depends on how Arenanet is going to balance the loss of condition/boon duration."

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/33txr5/cele_amulet_will_receive_a_10_overall_stat_nerf/cqoe1gx

Engi loses both condi duration AND boon duration altough engi never used might stacking.

The nerf will be way greater to build like shoutbow and cele ele, since they needed might stacking to keep the pressure.

Tbh it depends way more on sigils runes, if they will be nerfed prolly hybrid builds will be deleted unless u go carrion or rampager ( power condi would both reach the cap).

Rampager will be uber strong on certain builds ( like necs and engi) but survivability will be bad like it should.

I don’t really see celestial buff as a problem, it will prolly suck with new scaling and no condi/boon duration, unless they keep 10-15 might stacks costantly ( kinda hard with no boon duration).

Again it all breaks down to sigils and runes.

That’s what we all hope will be nerfed into the ground.

Game may became skill based again FOR REAL.

They will maintain might easily. I think the main problem with cele is the stat differential. Before they changed cele to just give way more stats it wasnt a problem.

True they lose boon duration but so does everyone. It effects all specs equally more or less.

Might will be easy to come by as usual. Look at engineers with blast finishers everywhere. I really dont think warrior will have a problem maintaining high amounts of might. And to think they actually buffed the amulet in terms of the stats given. That is mind boggling. I mean sure, if they think cele will be nerfed in other ways then keep the stat percentage advantage the same. But dont buff the stat differential. Cele needs nerfs after all. And we thought they were getting it. It was a significant reason people who like to play condition or support (bunker guardians for example) specs were looking forward to the patch. Because these hybrids wouldnt be forcing them out anymore.

Another thing – hybrid specs benefit the most from the vulnerability change as they can make use of both sides of this condition. Secondly, there are more traits and better traits than before. That means that even classes like necro (which previously couldnt make use of the healing power stat) can make use of it now. On warrior, ele and engi they can push into those traits to make use of all the stats. Which makes them even stronger.

CONDITIONS DO LESS with that low of a condition stat.
Meaning no matter what the math, without checking if condition stat will even be of use without major might stacks (15+ which are not easy to maintain) there is no way of telling how impactful any stat change is.

This game is far from linear, stop looking at it like it is.
Stop comparing apples to ponies.

Lordrosicky.5813:

They will maintain might easily. I think the main problem with cele is the stat differential. Before they changed cele to just give way more stats it wasnt a problem.

True they lose boon duration but so does everyone. It effects all specs equally more or less.

Might will be easy to come by as usual. Look at engineers with blast finishers everywhere. I really dont think warrior will have a problem maintaining high amounts of might. And to think they actually buffed the amulet in terms of the stats given. That is mind boggling. I mean sure, if they think cele will be nerfed in other ways then keep the stat percentage advantage the same. But dont buff the stat differential. Cele needs nerfs after all. And we thought they were getting it. It was a significant reason people who like to play condition or support (bunker guardians for example) specs were looking forward to the patch. Because these hybrids wouldnt be forcing them out anymore.

Another thing – hybrid specs benefit the most from the vulnerability change as they can make use of both sides of this condition. Secondly, there are more traits and better traits than before. That means that even classes like necro (which previously couldnt make use of the healing power stat) can make use of it now. On warrior, ele and engi they can push into those traits to make use of all the stats. Which makes them even stronger.

It all boils down to runes and sigils honestly.

If they nerf might runes, keeping 15 might stacks all time will be like impossible, 15 will mostly be the peak ( on self at least, in group fights it’s stilla achievable).

Without air/fire, builds will do way less damage even with stats buff and will prolly need offensive traits.

I’m actually thinking of coming back to thief to play crit strike S/P if they nerf sigils and runes, cuz it may became skill based again.

We’ll see.

Where do people come up with 15 might stacks? You only need 6 might stacks according to Anet. They said 750cond damage was roughly what you need to break even.

Kagamiku.9731:

Where do people come up with 15 might stacks? You only need 6 might stacks according to Anet. They said 750cond damage was roughly what you need to break even.

It’s been proven, that number was just a ball-park. It actually varies with spell to spell, with how many stacks they converted some conditions to, etc. There seems to be a “break even range”, some things break even at 0 condi dmg (certain poison skills) and some break even at 850 (some burning skills).

ronpierce.2760:

Kagamiku.9731:

Where do people come up with 15 might stacks? You only need 6 might stacks according to Anet. They said 750cond damage was roughly what you need to break even.

It’s been proven, that number was just a ball-park. It actually varies with spell to spell, with how many stacks they converted some conditions to, etc. There seems to be a “break even range”, some things break even at 0 condi dmg (certain poison skills) and some break even at 850 (some burning skills).

Well I just did math for bleeding, and with 750 cond damage post-patch you do slightly more condition damage than previous with the same amount of condition damage.

850 for burning would be roughly 10 might stacks with celestial, which is still easy to come by… So where do people come up with this 15+ might stacks?

Kagamiku.9731:

Where do people come up with 15 might stacks? You only need 6 might stacks according to Anet. They said 750cond damage was roughly what you need to break even.

Break even with BASE burning damage with zero condi investment beyond traits, they even used guardians constant burning as an example.

EDIT : could be wrong here. But do the math on burning base with no condition dmg vs 700condition damage post patch.

Burning will stack in intensity post-patch, you can’t compare what it is now with what it’s going to be post-patch.

Kagamiku.9731:

Burning will stack in intensity post-patch, you can’t compare what it is now with what it’s going to be post-patch.

Still relevant comparison when looking at cele gear, both major cele builds don’t apply long duration or double stack burning, they just apply it a lot, but not enough to stack.
Look at IP, 10secs CD on 4sec burning, and even ele daggers don’t have more than 1sec of burning.

Honestly, most of you can’t see the trees through the forest. It’s all about the condition damage component. Celestial hits like a wet noodle with raw damage, without the condition component. I keep seeing all these posts about “the break even” point—around 700.

You are missing what happens when you are well over the Break even point. How is celestial going to stand up against Carrion or Rabid. Will it be 1/3 or 1/4 the condition damage and wet noodle raw damage against an amulet that has superior offense?

My guess is, despite the numbers, celestial will go back on the trash shelf with Magi amulet. That’s kind of sad.

Trevor Boyer.6524:

Drath.4750:

Cele condi’s are stronger than they were before. We only had 438 condi damage before. Even with the new formula, 560 condi damage will do more damage than 438 did before. With might stacks or vulnerability it will be much higher damage than it was before.

You need to read about what happens now when a character converts your conditions in to boons: http://dulfy.net/2015/06/16/gw2-june-23-specialization-changes/

This condi meta everyone is worried about, isn’t going to happen. Raw DPS will still be the reliable DPS and weak to medium level condis will only punish you in the presence of Guardians & Necromancers.

Nobody is running corruption necro and shout guard (maybe condi cleanse medi) will probably be the only viable build in this meta. But with vit vanishing from the guard, they won’d last very long.

Archon.6480:

Honestly, most of you can’t see the trees through the forest. It’s all about the condition damage component. Celestial hits like a wet noodle with raw damage, without the condition component. I keep seeing all these posts about “the break even” point—around 700.

You are missing what happens when you are well over the Break even point. How is celestial going to stand up against Carrion or Rabid. Will it be 1/3 or 1/4 the condition damage and wet noodle raw damage against an amulet that has superior offense?

My guess is, despite the numbers, celestial will go back on the trash shelf with Magi amulet. That’s kind of sad.

Nah, celestial will still be good on engi and ele or any go to support.
But yes, it will hit for a lot less because of condi changes

What i don’t understand is, how you say you understand that raw numbers and balance are two different things, but you still say flat out that celestial (and the builds that use it) will be buffed. All the while acknowledging that they will be less effective than before.

serenke.4806:

What i don’t understand is, how you say you understand that raw numbers and balance are two different things, but you still say flat out that celestial (and the builds that use it) will be buffed. All the while acknowledging that they will be less effective than before.

“how you say you understand that raw numbers and balance are two different things”

Could not have said it better myself.