Thief - Countering

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Posted by: Rolyate.6753

Rolyate.6753

Hello, I’m a rank 35 PvPer, who now mains Thief. I began my PvP career switching between all classes and have experience with every single one. I play a mixture of hotjoin, free tournaments and paid tournaments (my focus being on free tournaments).

IMPORTANT
One mistake so many make when playing PvP games is not playing as their opposition. If you do not understand a class, you will not have the grounds to counter what they’re doing effectively.

On the grounds I have switched classes constantly since release, playing them all at a competitive level, I would I have a good understanding and give most a hard time.

Thief being one of people’s biggest problems, I thought I’d share some basic concepts for countering standard thief play which many seem to have trouble with.

Common problems:


A thief can be built to spike, be it the more common backstab build, or pistol whip. Both allow the thief to deal a huge amount of damage in a short period of time.

Counter: In order to counter a thief’s initial spike, you must negate a portion of the damage. How is more down to your class. Blocks, stunbreaks, dodges, blinds, teleports, protection- the list goes on. Just negating one of two portions of damage from the spike will leave the thief short of initiative making them a much weaker target. Be careful of a heartseeker spam and be sure to anticipate it as it’s often a backstab build’s last ditch attempt to finish a target, but again can be avoided through putting distance between you, dodging at the correct moment, using protection to lower the damage.


Stealth allows a player to attack and retreat without any consequences. Right? Wrong. Stealth is simply a mask. Cloaking doesn’t teleport a player, if a thief has just cloaked they’re still in that same area.

Mobility is important in any fight, as is using your surroundings to your personal advantage. Make sure to use line of sight when it’s available.

Counter: A thief works very well with levels which teleports allow them to quickly switch levels. Elementalists and Mesmers are the only ones really capable of following a Thief in such terrain and as such, any other class should try and make sure to fight in way which prevents them having this advantage. Teleports are what gives thieves their true mobility, which require initiative or an utility slot. The only way for a thief to easily remove conditions is to trait for it, while cloaked. Therefore immolise is a brilliant condition to apply in order to limit their mobility if you can predict their retreat.

And do not forget Just because you can’t target them, doesn’t mean you can’t kill them. Shadow Refuge requires the thief to stand in its radius as leaving will remove the cloak effect. Either pushing them out of it with a knockback, using AoE damage or even basic attacking can kill the thief. Be sure to AoE the area afterwards as it stands now, the cloak effect remains on a player dying and can allow them to self resurrect, thus it’s important to interrupt their channel.


One of the easiest things to counter. This is done using cloak and dagger, which is a melee range skill witj off-hand dagger. The skill is initiative heavy and requires the skill to land (damage being dealt).

Counter: In order to counter this and prevent the player from stealthing and gaining and endless source of healing, only one thing needs to be done. You need to count. The skill, with the minor trait gives a 4 second cloak, count from the moment you take damage and dodge, block, anything to prevent the damage on that fourth second. The thief will now have to use a cooldown or will be a free kill (as the only real reason to use this tactic is because you’re in trouble.

Thief is not the ultimate class, it is simply a class with a lot of tricks. Tricks which once understood put you at a huge advantage over the thief and allow you to use counters which they cannot then counter again.

Why have I given out this information?
It’s not fun seeing other people have a bad time when playing a game and having them know your classes dirty tricks simply puts you on a level playing field and can give fights a more meaningful outcome – as opposed to the common Alt + F4 ending.

Feedback is welcomed.

Corrections or additional content: please let me know in a civil manor!

I hope this post was of some help and a merry Christmas to you all!

Rolyate
How do you pronounce your name?

(edited by Rolyate.6753)

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Rolyate.6753

Reserved for potential future content.

Rolyate
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Posted by: Soul.5947

Soul.5947

“Just because you can’t target them, doesn’t mean you can’t kill them” i have seen this statement over and over again and it’s complete rubbish and here is why :
1- no ranged atack can hit a stealth thief because you can’t properly aim it especially a mesmer gs auto attack that does not even fire without a target.
2- condition remove is stealth = 1 condition instantly removed when entering stealth and another one after 3 sec of stealth, if u enter stealth with the heal skill that means any burning bleedin poison instantly removed + 1 extra condition so it’s 4 conditions removed with 1 skill that also heals and stealths.
3- thief movement speed 50% while in stealth so if you can tell me you can predict and kill a toon with max movement speed and invisible which is also trying to run away from you i would like to congratulate you on being to awsome

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Posted by: Rolyate.6753

Rolyate.6753

snip

You do not have one weapon set. Both staff and sword allow you two do AoE pressure.

Condition removal requires points to be put in to a defensive tree, lowering the thief’s damage output. Also, attempting to kill a condition removal spec, with condition spec is not going to be easy. It can however be done by preventing them stealthing (using the method which prevent cloak and dagger being spammed).

On the note of the movement speed and cond removal, this requires at least 30 points in defensive traits, not including the the regeneration trait which would take a further 20. This build again will fall to preventing C&D spam.

Rolyate
How do you pronounce your name?

(edited by Rolyate.6753)

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Posted by: guza.6170

guza.6170

The problem is some thieves do the initial steal-cnd-backstab burst too fast for u to counter it, i tried going against those thieves with my finger on mist form and i still lost half my health before i could press it (i dont know if theres a macro involved or its just good timing), after that its extremly hard to actually beat them with the amount of stealth and evade they have + shadow step ofcourse.
That burst should give u just a bit more time to react so u could actually avoid the cnd and backstab if u had a countr skill rdy otherwise its kind of pointless to have those skills.

aka Subl

(edited by guza.6170)

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Posted by: Rolyate.6753

Rolyate.6753

That initial burst is 6 initiative and their main spike on CD though. Just mist forming or armour of earthing and healing should leave you pretty comfortable to fight them.

Rolyate
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Posted by: EoNxBoNx.9213

EoNxBoNx.9213

Well the thing about stealth is definitely not true. If a thief drops Shadow Refuge, after 3 seconds he can just run away from that location and still be invisible. And same the goes with their healing skill that stealths them. It removes burning, bleeding, and poison I believe, and stealths them for 3 seconds, and puts on regeneration.

“You’re either a Noob or a Pro your entire life, that’s life”
IGN – Kinjax // World – Anvil Rock
IGN – InTheseDays // World – Anvil Rock

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Posted by: Rolyate.6753

Rolyate.6753

First point isn’t true.

Heal skill is a cloak, yes. But it doesn’t remove movement impairing conditions (unless traited in the defensive trees).

Rolyate
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Posted by: Solori.6025

Solori.6025

Well the thing about stealth is definitely not true. If a thief drops Shadow Refuge, after 3 seconds he can just run away from that location and still be invisible. And same the goes with their healing skill that stealths them. It removes burning, bleeding, and poison I believe, and stealths them for 3 seconds, and puts on regeneration.

In 3 Seconds for Shadow Refuge you have the option to AoE, CC, or Condition layer the area.
I cant count how many times I have been able to kill thieves from AoE chilling and Crippling a Shadow Refuge, KB’ing them out of it, or Knocking them down for someone else to AoE the area.


The world needs more KUNG FURY!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS5P_LAqiVg

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Posted by: Solori.6025

Solori.6025

3- thief movement speed 50% while in stealth so if you can tell me you can predict and kill a toon with max movement speed and invisible which is also trying to run away from you i would like to congratulate you on being to awsome

I havent seen many theives with this trait since its buff, maybe they are prominent in WvW where getting around the map is key, in spvp, the ones I mainly see are specced to do max damage.
Even then, if your chasing a theif around the map your not helping your team by giving up a point or being away from it, and in worst case scenerio’s being baited into a losing situation where the theif will turn around and pressure you till he can burst you back down.


The world needs more KUNG FURY!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS5P_LAqiVg

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Posted by: EoNxBoNx.9213

EoNxBoNx.9213

Well the thing about stealth is definitely not true. If a thief drops Shadow Refuge, after 3 seconds he can just run away from that location and still be invisible. And same the goes with their healing skill that stealths them. It removes burning, bleeding, and poison I believe, and stealths them for 3 seconds, and puts on regeneration.

In 3 Seconds for Shadow Refuge you have the option to AoE, CC, or Condition layer the area.
I cant count how many times I have been able to kill thieves from AoE chilling and Crippling a Shadow Refuge, KB’ing them out of it, or Knocking them down for someone else to AoE the area.

The only thing that will kill me in a Shadow Refuge is if I actually get knocked out of it.

“You’re either a Noob or a Pro your entire life, that’s life”
IGN – Kinjax // World – Anvil Rock
IGN – InTheseDays // World – Anvil Rock

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Posted by: Solori.6025

Solori.6025

Well the thing about stealth is definitely not true. If a thief drops Shadow Refuge, after 3 seconds he can just run away from that location and still be invisible. And same the goes with their healing skill that stealths them. It removes burning, bleeding, and poison I believe, and stealths them for 3 seconds, and puts on regeneration.

In 3 Seconds for Shadow Refuge you have the option to AoE, CC, or Condition layer the area.
I cant count how many times I have been able to kill thieves from AoE chilling and Crippling a Shadow Refuge, KB’ing them out of it, or Knocking them down for someone else to AoE the area.

The only thing that will kill me in a Shadow Refuge is if I actually get knocked out of it.

Thats great, but unless you shadow refuged for an offensive attack ( something I rarely ever see a thief blow that CD for) your not going to be chased by a good player trying to control points.
The area will be pressured, to force some more damage on you.
But unless someone has a CC like mentioned available, chances are your not going to be killed trying to run away, because you just lost a point.

“Well I can just come back and burst them all over again”

Most point defenders are bunkers, your CD’s and theirs will recharge at around the same time, their endurance will be back, and now they expect you because your first attempt failed ( and it will fail against a good point bunker).


The world needs more KUNG FURY!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS5P_LAqiVg

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Posted by: aydenunited.5729

aydenunited.5729

That initial burst is 6 initiative and their main spike on CD though. Just mist forming or armour of earthing and healing should leave you pretty comfortable to fight them.

This board is generally speaking not interested in learning how to deal with thieves, they are more concerned with the fact that they should have to.

I appreciate a bit of the sanity you try to bring to the board, but it’s futile I think. I’ve never had a problem with Thieves except for the very good ones, and BS Thieves are not the good ones.

Jumzi (Ranger), Tarnished Coast

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Posted by: Shukran.4851

Shukran.4851

“Just because you can’t target them, doesn’t mean you can’t kill them” i have seen this statement over and over again and it’s complete rubbish and here is why :
1- no ranged atack can hit a stealth thief because you can’t properly aim it especially a mesmer gs auto attack that does not even fire without a target.
2- condition remove is stealth = 1 condition instantly removed when entering stealth and another one after 3 sec of stealth, if u enter stealth with the heal skill that means any burning bleedin poison instantly removed + 1 extra condition so it’s 4 conditions removed with 1 skill that also heals and stealths.
3- thief movement speed 50% while in stealth so if you can tell me you can predict and kill a toon with max movement speed and invisible which is also trying to run away from you i would like to congratulate you on being to awsome

1- try channeled attacks. they works. a good ranger ownz thief for example. aoe kills thief because , you know, they are cannon glass.
2- you need to spec to have that trait.
3- you need to spec to have that trait. if thief go away you won the fight.
if thief spec in survivability, he lose potential damage.

a good way to improve countering thieves is asking friends for 1v1 or 2v2 in some empty spvp rooms. soon or later you will start to understand how to counter and how to react to thief burst.
hf

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Posted by: Akumetsu.8591

Akumetsu.8591

i run a build for cond removal hp regen and stealth speed. BUT this build puts out consistent dmg (backstabs go for about 5-6k on low toughness people) but i can do more of them and stick to a person more so i end up doing more dmg in total but not in a huge burst. fighting a thief is all about learning how to make the split second decisions that will save you. for this going into a server with a friend and practicing is a great way like the poster above me said. and dont always think in a 1v1 situation. In Tpvp your team will target a thief fast if he over extends at all. So as a thief you have to balance yourself very carefully between trying to kill some one and staying alive yourself.

One hope, One dream, One Dagger Thief
K U R A Enguard [ENG], Pretty Princess Squad [MEN]