Guild Wars 2

I don’t think OP is a bad troll.

We’ve already seen what happens to a meta where thieves are good at 1v1ing: They keep every single other dps spec out of the game by virtue of being thieves.

Thieves are made for ultra mobility / chasing power and burst/dps. They don’t really have anything else, but when thieves are viable, ALL other zerker specs are NOT VIABLE (besides Guardian maybe, maybe).

And that’s the crux of the problem.

Mesmers have been out of the game for a long time simply because thieves hard countered them. Eles have never been able to go zerker fresh air because of thieves oneshotting them. Same for a lot of other classes.

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

I don’t think OP is a bad troll.

We’ve already seen what happens to a meta where thieves are good at 1v1ing: They keep every single other dps spec out of the game by virtue of being thieves.

Thieves are made for ultra mobility / chasing power and burst/dps. They don’t really have anything else, but when thieves are viable, ALL other zerker specs are NOT VIABLE (besides Guardian maybe, maybe).

And that’s the crux of the problem.

Mesmers have been out of the game for a long time simply because thieves hard countered them. Eles have never been able to go zerker fresh air because of thieves oneshotting them. Same for a lot of other classes.

As a thief I definitly don´t want mesmer pushed out from pvp again. There is to much interesting gameplays possible through them. After the change to rezz-speed through quickness, the main role of bunker mesmer is gone. Bunker-mesmer less viable (shouldn´t be deleted, too, ya know…build diversity) would result in other classes being more used in pvp. alacricity nerf isn´t really necessary a the current state of the game with the preview on balance-changes. Feels like it was mostly cause of PvE. But we already have seperated skill, so why not that one, too? Fromm 66%-33% is another thing. Why not look first how it goes and then MAYBE (if necessary) lower it to 50% and so on. Shatter-Mesmer needs to be similar to thief, so you can use both as a +1/mobile/decap class and having a choice which one to use.

The most interesting part (and I think everyone should be aware of that) is the bunch of changes mesmer got in june. Illusionary persona was a very important one. Added a lot of utility. Other defence and offensive stuff was added that made shatter less problematic. New shatter →more blind, more boon remove, more quickness, more alacrity (resulting in higher uptime of skills, offence and defence) and I´m sure I forget some stuff. Superspeed one illus is great, too. Much easier to get them quick to the target for damage, boon remove or daze, depends.
The best build for thieves right now invests almost everything into more damage at the expense of utility (executioner instead of impro, havoc instead of the weakness-trait for example). Less bunker means thieves can go more defence and less offence —> less damage. Maybe with less bunkers and more damage defence will be to important.

To ele, as I said, the access to full earth for example makes a difference and overload on air is very powerful against stealthed players.

The most important thing is that anet react on the processing. Thats the problem overall. If something doesn´t wokr after that patch or is to strong the have to fix that BEFORE the next season.

Yup and it’s threads like this that reduced this game to idiot levels.

First off Its a 30% increase in the TOTAL time it takes to use your auto attack chain. that is not 30% more damage little newb. This means’ for once your not going to be able to use swiftness and calmly walk out of every single sword AA.
Second, Every single profession in this game has this amazing mechanic called dodging. perhaps it’s time you locate this feature.. If your really worried about BV..

3rd: stop your whining, Thieves where made for BURST/Mobility/Evasion The dev stated as much, but your to delusional to look it up.

“Git Good”

That’s what I will say to you when the thief cheesing gets you nerfed into the gutter in 6 months or so when anet finally bothers to pay attention to the game again.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Poor mesmers, have no defense beside blocks, except for evade, invuln, blind, cc, stealth, teleports …

You left a few out… slow, well spam, 50% damage mitigation, protection spam, continum

Have to dodge mandatory, instead of expect to block, or put pressure on thief while he is visible.

Ithilwen.1529:

Thief detected. Worry not though, you’ll have your time of eating Mesmers with no risk at all, then you’ll hear the drumbeat ; "thief is so cheesy , wtf? " and I hope you lose stealth altogether along with anything else that you can use for defense.

So because someone is a thief player and disagrees with you, you hope that thief gets completely gutted?
Wow…
How childish…

Do you honestly think that anyone will take your opinions seriously with that attitude?

My “attitude” is the recognition that the new bassy venom is way too too strong. That’s doubly true if it’s combined with venomous aura.

Given anet’s history, the future looks like this;

Thieves will cheese mesmers and ele’s completely out of the game for 6 months to a year while anet dithers and does nothing. Eventually the “thieves are cheesy” cry will reach adequate levels.

Finally, anet will take action, relegating thieves to trash tier in some way. Anet, by history will overreact by about a factor of 6.

I had a 3 day break, I even deleted the game, came back, got to diamond division in 2 days I got from 17 pips to 30 with DH, solo… what made me come back, seeing the new changes; made me so happy.
It is normal that a thief could kill you fast … it was not normal that mesmer, ele could tank 2 players, sometimes 3
DH’s are like this, good dmg, bad sustain, just the greatest DH’s survive in high divisions, and why, because of mesmers, and eles, they don’t die, and even support god likely the others… now it will change, halleluia

So you think that a thief having a sure kill on a Mesmer or Ele is a good thing and you’re anticipating it. Well, at least you’re honest.

There will be consequences though. Those same people who whined that Mesmer was no skill will soon be snapping at the heels of thieves.

I apologize for all the obnoxious thieves in this thread- i think most of us appreciate BV being unblockable, but realize that A) that it is insanely strong to the point of being possibly broken and B) overkill with the other balancing changes.

Take note- that many of the bandwagoning thieves you will see coming back into frame lately will be the sort to yell l2p, when they refused to do the same when our lives became hard.

Balancing in this game is practically a caricature of itself :/

thief main. I am not sure why they gave aa dmg buff to staff and dagger, they were both solid, i mean kitten . dagger has endurance gain and poison on it, staff has reflect (not a reliable 1 but still) the sword buff was needed very much after they gutted acro line (fluid strike’s and PoI) and how clunky it was to over ride AA with other skill’s because it just “lags” for half a second before the next attack happens, example, AA warrior, he uses evis. i us flanking strike – it bugs out/lags for half a second and evis hits me then flanking strike triggers. (avg ping of 30)

the only class i enjoyed fighting in pvp was a mesmer because it can end very fast on both sides if someone screws up. the Chrono bunker is anoying, but all bunkers are. they already nerfed WoP to be invul so points decap why nerf it even hard to agis when a thief can just run venom share and pop BS, that makes no sense to me.

I hope they stick to their words and say this is just a preview and that they will take into consideration of feedback, I dont want to see mesmers totally destroyed again, thieves counter them anyway because we are the only class to keep up with you (rev can i guess too) but they cant play mind games like a thief or mesmer does.

LordOtto.2650:

I had a 3 day break, I even deleted the game, came back, got to diamond division in 2 days I got from 17 pips to 30 with DH, solo… what made me come back, seeing the new changes; made me so happy.
It is normal that a thief could kill you fast … it was not normal that mesmer, ele could tank 2 players, sometimes 3
DH’s are like this, good dmg, bad sustain, just the greatest DH’s survive in high divisions, and why, because of mesmers, and eles, they don’t die, and even support god likely the others… now it will change, halleluia

You mean dh will be in a worse spot without assistance from ele and mesmers?
Less Ele also helps the dmg, because it means less group reflects around.

I can’t stop laughing. “And now this combo Steal->Black Powder-> Heartseeker is going to be impossible to stop”. HAHAHAHAHAHA. I think the last time this sucker landed on me was 2014 LOL. God I miss being a newb, gonna be honest. Pro tip from a Thief to all “omg Thief going to be OP” sayers, if you get hit by this you were either not paying attention or pre-occupied. Meaning you deserved it. 1v2 encourages this. Lack of attention leading to death is probably the first thing anyone learns in pvp. Ever. Like, thinking you are allowed to live because “omg I glanced away for 4 seconds” is sad…but it happens because “omg my skill based passives”. I get that Steal goes through walls, but the amount of valid pathing remaining is minimal. On top of that, how does this damage make people freak out?

I’ve been reading for WEEKS “oh man, I accidentally killed a thief, my bad”. How does accidental killing and more damage relate to each other? Because more damage does not mean more survivability. Not unless you refuse to engage.

Anywho, mini rant over. I don’t care much. You players will get Thief butchered early. I can still see Mesmer being viable and highly pickable. I’ll trade you my new unblockable basilisk venom for ANY of your elites. Trade me, I’m game.

@Serious Thought.5394 meta @wvw is pirate 1200 range+airship, not sure how u will reach all that aoe and traps!

I got actually a few concerns into venom share trait usage on the pirate cancer.

See my point? Our problem is longevity over damage, though our damage is garbage. So I will take these buffs, I just wish they hit either of the problems- 15k hp OR preparedness baseline.

Ahh….the tears of chrono bunkers.

As thief main i don’t think this changes are good nor will fix thief issues:
- thief main issue is survival is in this massive aoe/passives/CC spam, i constantly get hit by crap (taking half of my HP bar) that is not even ment for me :|
- thief has dmg, thief just doesn’t have means to land it any due to miriad of blocks/invuls/cc, perma weakness etc. I think basi is about only good change really but there needs to be more of counters (since Anet is absolutely fine with ridiculous hardcounter crap like revealed from rev/engis). Buff to AA on other hand? I am not so sure. I really don’t think AA from ANY class (sup revs, necros~) should be too strong. Period.

seems to me like some people have never heard of a hard counter.
the struggle is real.

Too much seasoning for my steak

this whole threat is about ppl that dont know kitten about thief and talk about him for some reason:
Basilisk rendering Mesmer shield useless: im sure 2 unblockable hits will kill mesmer that can recast his “shield” again and again and apply aoe slow apply aoe chill and have tons of blur(arent blocks so basil wont work on them) but i guess OP KNOWS MESMER SOO WELL THAT 100% sure mesmers are dead.

Then quoting Helseth that is like 90% wrong in case of every balance change.
U realise that this guys called Chrono useless then went chrono bunker and changed
meta forever?

and again why PPL think that BACKSTAB should deal low dmg? THIS SPELL CANNOT BE SPAMMED requires perfect positioning and pre stealth. COMPARED TO TRUE SHOT this spell is utter pointless…

I have nothing against thief, but backstab needs one of the following for it to be fair when the buffs drop:

- if I guess correctly and dodge, he should reveal himself, not get a second chance during the same stealth.

- consecutive failed backstabs should deal less damage each time.

- backstab damage increased, but you can’t simply chain stealths back to back so you can backstab like…once every 10s.

Slayer, you are trolling right?

AlCojester.4316:

Too much seasoning for my steak

I find this offensive.

SlayerSixx.5763:

I have nothing against thief, but backstab needs one of the following for it to be fair when the buffs drop:

- if I guess correctly and dodge, he should reveal himself, not get a second chance during the same stealth.

- consecutive failed backstabs should deal less damage each time.

- backstab damage increased, but you can’t simply chain stealths back to back so you can backstab like…once every 10s.

Backstab does as much damage right now as the Reapers auto attack except with prep time, so you’ll be fine buddy.

still wonder, what happens when a thief gets out of reveal trying to pick up behind the enemy group, and 2 rev use hammer 2 at same time (with venom shared from nearby ally thief).

IDICERI.4268:

SlayerSixx.5763:

I have nothing against thief, but backstab needs one of the following for it to be fair when the buffs drop:

- if I guess correctly and dodge, he should reveal himself, not get a second chance during the same stealth.

- consecutive failed backstabs should deal less damage each time.

- backstab damage increased, but you can’t simply chain stealths back to back so you can backstab like…once every 10s.

Backstab does as much damage right now as the Reapers auto attack except with prep time, so you’ll be fine buddy.

I’m not against backstab getting a raw boost in damage so its the deadly 1v1 ability that it should be. Its just that the suggestions I placed are things that would fill in a lot of holes.

Give thief the damage they should be doing, but rewarding mindless spam just hurts.

TheLastNobody.8319:

And yeah Mesmer has stealth, ports and the like but thief has more than enough to stay right on top of them, plus how easy it is to pre stack stealth for them lets them engage undetected

not really, the amount of reveal that everyone has access to now almost nullifies stealth.

How about this.

Instead of crying about how mesmers are gonna have to worry about thieves again, we make every other class worry about a mes+thief stealth moa basi venom mind wreck backstab gravity bomb combo?

seriously.

the mes thief pain train is back.

both mesmer and thief (sorry rangers, but in the last 3 years, youve barely seen the nerfstick as much as thief and mes) have had enough of playing nerf pong.

lets look at this with positivity.

RIP DH, Reaper and Scrapper and Rev.

LordOtto.2650:

I had a 3 day break, I even deleted the game, came back, got to diamond division in 2 days I got from 17 pips to 30 with DH, solo… what made me come back, seeing the new changes; made me so happy.
It is normal that a thief could kill you fast … it was not normal that mesmer, ele could tank 2 players, sometimes 3
DH’s are like this, good dmg, bad sustain, just the greatest DH’s survive in high divisions, and why, because of mesmers, and eles, they don’t die, and even support god likely the others… now it will change, halleluia

Your name is as funny as seeing u previously and continously pop up in threads saying how fail anet is and how happy you are quitting for good. And here you are back again, happy as ever, little hypocrite lol.

I don’t mean to be that guy

but Orginally a thief was MENT to kick the crap out of a Mesmer, it was kinda how balance was, a thief was always ment to win the match up against a Mesmer 1v1, maybe not by how ridiculous this meta will allow, but u arnt ment to be capable of winning agains tthem either.

I agree Mesmers are being overnerfed tho.. and the unblockable attack floodings is a ridiculous idea which will result in only huge flaws and pot holes.

Guess it’s back to Dire again.

SlayerSixx.5763:

I’m not against backstab getting a raw boost in damage

Yea, those minor trait called Lead Attacks (Ferocious Strike and Exposed Weakness) serve absolutely nothing interms of damage modifier.

Give thief the damage they should be doing, but rewarding mindless spam just hurts.

I don’t mind the Thief being Initiative dependent,oh wait.

I will try look at this from my point of view… Iam not sure yet that the buffs to thieves is going to ruin mesmer (mesm got ruined by devs because of other things). As I see it, just go illu, inspiration and chrono, wearing that new amulet giving vit/thoughness/1050 condi/1050 power. Using torch and scepter, and staff as 2nd…

Torment is like a living hell to thief, even If they would to remove it, you can apply it very fast again!

For this build "time catches up, illusionary rev and chronophatasma is a must! You will never run out of clones. Mirror images, decoy and blink you will use aswell! And obviously dont forget to spec for “master of frag” and mental defense!

I can also see how switching inspiration for dueling here would give even more clones and give nice blinds on shatter aswell!

Also use some chill on ur weap! Iam not afraid of thief in this patch… But necros is another matter!

We still dont know what changes come to scepter weapon yet, If not that minor useless buff they announced so far is it…

I could be wrong, but I never had any prob with thief running condi!

Not saying that all the buffs thief got while nerfing mesmer is a good thing, but you gotta work with what we have left kinda!

lol mesmer has no right to complain unless they become nothing but a +1 role that cant 1v1 and can only decap. i dont think a mesmer was ever asked to switch classes for raids after being told their class sucks.

ArcanistSeven.8720:

lol mesmer has no right to complain unless they become nothing but a +1 role that cant 1v1 and can only decap. i dont think a mesmer was ever asked to switch classes for raids after being told their class sucks.

What is raid, I think you are in the wrong subforum.

godz raiden.2631:

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Since the trait changes in June, mesmer could deal with thieves just fine …

Btw, rev has much more unblockable attacks and are way stronger than thieves (at least for now). Why don’t you cry about those?

“Because revenants can’t stealth on demand so they’re not OP!” That’s what they’re going to say. Also, do these mesmers realize there is a trait that makes every mark a necro places unblockable that plenty of necros use at the moment? Personally when I play my necro and I see a mesmer using the shield block, I start dumping conditions all over them, including being able to fear them out of the block and screw them over even harder. I think being covered in conditions while being feared is a lot harder deal with, because even if you stun break the fear with decoy or blink, you’re still covered in conditions lol.

basically this. I don’t understand how ppl complain about BV when playing a condi reaper with the mark trait bypassed the mesmer’s shield this entire meta lol

Ithilwen.1529:

ANET chose to strip the vast majority of Mesmer defense. Offensive power was also greatly reduced ( 50% Alacrity nerf .)

At the same time they buffed thief auto attack by 30%. This alone would have meant that a thief pulling off a backstab would most likely be able to kill a Mesmer in 1 or 2 moves.

That wasn’t enough though.. ANET added an unblockable bassy venom. This makes the Mesmer shield ( our new weapon ) essentially worthless v. a thief. With the damage increase, a thief can practically kill a Mesmer with a very short combination of button pushes with almost no risk.

I doubt that even shortsighted ANET could have failed to anticipate this situation and it is likely to kick Mesmer right back to trash tier where we languished for years.

So, my question is; “Why do you hate mesmer , ANET?”

Are you taking revenge on a Pro League Mesmer?

Is it office politics at ANET?

Do you simply not want Mesmer in the game?

ANET won’t answer of course, that would require both courage and honesty.

Like, honestly, all I read is “oh no, someone can finally counter/pressure me a bit”..

Your afk-brainfart times are over, friend.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Poor mesmers, have no defense beside blocks, except for evade, invuln, blind, cc, stealth, teleports …

All of which thief has more of and more damage and more teleport + similar boon rip, more stealth, faster animations, more mobility, etc……… and now an unlockable stun. If you ever gave an unlockable stun to mesmer omg there would be 50,000 posts within the first 4 hours.

Terrorsquad.4802:

Ithilwen.1529:

ANET chose to strip the vast majority of Mesmer defense. Offensive power was also greatly reduced ( 50% Alacrity nerf .)

At the same time they buffed thief auto attack by 30%. This alone would have meant that a thief pulling off a backstab would most likely be able to kill a Mesmer in 1 or 2 moves.

That wasn’t enough though.. ANET added an unblockable bassy venom. This makes the Mesmer shield ( our new weapon ) essentially worthless v. a thief. With the damage increase, a thief can practically kill a Mesmer with a very short combination of button pushes with almost no risk.

I doubt that even shortsighted ANET could have failed to anticipate this situation and it is likely to kick Mesmer right back to trash tier where we languished for years.

So, my question is; “Why do you hate mesmer , ANET?”

Are you taking revenge on a Pro League Mesmer?

Is it office politics at ANET?

Do you simply not want Mesmer in the game?

ANET won’t answer of course, that would require both courage and honesty.

Like, honestly, all I read is “oh no, someone can finally counter/pressure me a bit”..

Your afk-brainfart times are over, friend.

If this is really denied that is pretty sad….. you have fallen really far.

ArcanistSeven.8720:

lol mesmer has no right to complain unless they become nothing but a +1 role that cant 1v1 and can only decap. i dont think a mesmer was ever asked to switch classes for raids after being told their class sucks.

This have official been reading ducked to less than that according to the changes at any competitive level of pvp. A thief will have more mobility, damage, and stealth. All the important +1 factors.

Lusteregris.2697:

Cmon, your saying it like just thieves counter mesmer. All classes are gonna counter mesmer now. I mean..what ya want to play? Shatter? Its already weaker than thief, after balance patch buffing thiefs and nerfing mes even more so. Condi? Good luck with that. Bunker? It was nerfed in literally every possible way, and bunkers are gonna be free kill for necros now anyway.

Sums up mesmer.

Sadrien.3470:

ArcanistSeven.8720:

lol mesmer has no right to complain unless they become nothing but a +1 role that cant 1v1 and can only decap. i dont think a mesmer was ever asked to switch classes for raids after being told their class sucks.

This have official been reading ducked to less than that according to the changes at any competitive level of pvp. A thief will have more mobility, damage, and stealth. All the important +1 factors.

thieves don’t have more stealth than mes nor dmg
they do have bit more mobility but they don’t have portal

But we have 100 or so extra toughness then a mesmer. That’s why we should win most fights

Drayos.8759:

I don’t mean to be that guy

but Orginally a thief was MENT to kick the crap out of a Mesmer, it was kinda how balance was, a thief was always ment to win the match up against a Mesmer 1v1, maybe not by how ridiculous this meta will allow, but u arnt ment to be capable of winning agains tthem either.

I agree Mesmers are being overnerfed tho.. and the unblockable attack floodings is a ridiculous idea which will result in only huge flaws and pot holes.

Mesmers aside thieves did need some kind of buff to their ability to land dmg. Right now there are so many blocks/invuls/blurr/perma prot etc. flying around that playing squishy glass cannon that can’t land any burst is pointless. 40 sec for potentially unblockable attack is hardly OP under such circumstances.

We don’t even know how the changes will play out so its stupid to say x is op before we have even seen it in practice. We already know what is god mode right now though and its getting nerfed and rightfully so much to the sorrow of the op.

collects Mesmer tears to create another vial of salt

brannigan.9831:

We don’t even know how the changes will play out so its stupid to say x is op before we have even seen it in practice. We already know what is god mode right now though and its getting nerfed and rightfully so much to the sorrow of the op.

Given the past history with thieves and mesmers, combined with the buffs to thief with that unblockable and unbreakable stun, their greater access to stealth and their damage, along with the Mesmer nerfs, we can gleam enough to know that a Mesmer will be fodder for thieves. Even if a Mesmer stealths to try and heal up the theif will just stealth up himself and outlast the Mesmer, jumping on them the moment they reveal themselves.

Being masters of deception and illusion, I believe it would be fair if Mesmer got something that could allow it to see people in stealth similar to stealth detection, but only the Mesmer would see it and nobody else.

Lots of talk about BV here.

And yea, it’ll make BV good. I think this will make base thief at least viable and it will serve as a good skill for people learning to play thief…

…but, I don’t see BV beating out Impact Strike as meta. IS is already game changing in the hands of any thief that knows how to time this right. It may not seem that way now since there are so few experienced thieves maining this class and most of the thieves out there don’t really seem to know how to utilize IS to its full potential.

Not only will the power of this skill become more pronounced once people start actually seriously playing this profession in PvP again, but it will also be the only fast cast spike in the game after the quickness spike nerf. Anyone who played a bunker mesmer with quickness spikes can probably speak to how much of a difference this can make in a team fight.

Thieves are still squishy and it still make not be a good idea for a thief to do the spiking in a lot of team fights, but with the BP aftercast removal, you could certainly start casting BP, steal to enemy, and then IS to land a spike on a foe with the cover of a blind field.

TheLastNobody.8319:

brannigan.9831:

We don’t even know how the changes will play out so its stupid to say x is op before we have even seen it in practice. We already know what is god mode right now though and its getting nerfed and rightfully so much to the sorrow of the op.

Given the past history with thieves and mesmers, combined with the buffs to thief with that unblockable and unbreakable stun, their greater access to stealth and their damage, along with the Mesmer nerfs, we can gleam enough to know that a Mesmer will be fodder for thieves. Even if a Mesmer stealths to try and heal up the theif will just stealth up himself and outlast the Mesmer, jumping on them the moment they reveal themselves.

Being masters of deception and illusion, I believe it would be fair if Mesmer got something that could allow it to see people in stealth similar to stealth detection, but only the Mesmer would see it and nobody else.

Posts like this seem kind of silly. No class whatsoever is gonna build around countering just one single class like your suggesting here; it’s just not gonna happen. Spec enough stealth to outlast and lose out heavily in another trait line/ utility choice….relax man.

Dahkeus.8243:

Not only will the power of this skill become more pronounced once people start actually seriously playing this profession in PvP again, but it will also be the only fast cast spike in the game after the quickness spike nerf.

Don’t forget, too, that Impact Strike itself will likewise be bolstered by Quickness. Thief doesn’t really have a lot of ways to generate Quickness on its own, I don’t know that many people are going to be running Haste on their bar, but a good coordinated team with an ally who can drop Quickness on demand can bring about some fast and brutal Impact Strike stomps. And maybe some of the top players will be able to make Haste work, too. It’s still a stunbreak at the end of the day, and with improved auto-attacks Quickness will no longer be as much a DPS waste as it is now on a Thief, compared to say a Revenant…