Guild Wars 2

I have only run into 2 or 3 thiefs who play this build, but each time i faced them i was not able to get their health below 50% without them disappearing only to reappear shortly after with full health. I could do nothing to heal myself enough or transfer my conditions to them since they were invisible most of the time…

I am not a noob, I can beat most thieves easily but vs this particular thief build there is nothing i can do when a thief plays it well. The only times i beat them is when i was paired with a good engineer or an elementalist.
Solutions needed- fix thief culling issue or reduce thiefs condition damage ability.

You do realize you are playing a necro right?
And you can counter every single one of his stealth casts with fears/daze?
And yes, you can transfer your condi’s by skillshotting it if you do so happen to screw up and let him stealth.
Not only that, but that particular thief build can only clear 1 condi per 3 seconds in stealth outside of their heal and shadow return (easy interrupt and long cooldown, respectively). Necros should have 4+ condi’s running. He won’t even shake half of them off with a normal stealth.

You realize necro condi damage is kitten, right? In the time a necro takes to get up a 9 stack bleed that will soon be cleansed, the thief can take down half his hp.

Necro is not a 1v1 class, and a match up for a support class versus one of the two strongest 1v1 classes is silly. Stay close to your guardian or ele buddy or bring a thief/mesmer friend of your own to cheese the other thief.

Zenith.7301:

You realize necro condi damage is kitten, right? In the time a necro takes to get up a 9 stack bleed that will soon be cleansed, the thief can take down half his hp.

Necro is not a 1v1 class, and a match up for a support class versus one of the two strongest 1v1 classes is silly. Stay close to your guardian or ele buddy or bring a thief/mesmer friend of your own to cheese the other thief.

We arent talking about the GC build..
This is a necro fighting a condition build.

The direct burst damage on a condition thief is no where near what the GC thieves can put out in a short amount of time :I

With that being said, this build shouldnt be a problem for a condition necromancer, seeing as how most of the conditions a thief applies can be eaten, tranfered back, or cleansed, while the necro is still able to apply their conditions just as easy.

In a battle of attrition like this, the necro has the clear advantage if played wisely.

are u just standing on the caltrops?

Juan Ignacio.8903:

are u just standing on the caltrops?

That and watching the theif run up for a C&D..

all five times.

Jumper.9482:

You do realize you are playing a necro right?
And you can counter every single one of his stealth casts with fears/daze?
And yes, you can transfer your condi’s by skillshotting it if you do so happen to screw up and let him stealth.
Not only that, but that particular thief build can only clear 1 condi per 3 seconds in stealth outside of their heal and shadow return (easy interrupt and long cooldown, respectively). Necros should have 4+ condi’s running. He won’t even shake half of them off with a normal stealth.

yes i know. but I can’t change all of my skills based on this one thief build that i’ve only vsed 3 competent opponents. normally as necro i can bring down any class 1v1, especially easy are melee thiefs or noob condition thiefs who stay visible long enough for me to cast fear and stay close enough while invisible for me to spread conditions. However vs this thief build I can do nothing in the long run… I may get lucky and hit them with a fear and a bleed and poison, but then they are invisible for a long time and only reappear when they have full health and my heal is still recharging… and NO as a necro you can not counter EVERY single thief stealth skill. it is impossible. 2 fears and 1 daze vs 3/4 stealths that can be spammed much quicker than my skills can recharge..

Juan Ignacio.8903:

are u just standing on the caltrops?

No Juan. you are very good, I know it is very hard to kill you in spvp. but no i am not just standing on the caltrops, i am dodging and consuming conditions while he shoots me at a distance with his pistol and then disappears.

If you only ran into 2 or 3 Thieves who do this, don’t you think it’s a bit silly to be calling it out as OP already and wanting it to be nerfed?

25 sec cd on consume conditions. offhand dagger transfer is a similar cooldown, with an incredibly slow projectile anyone will dodge. If the thief is ranged, which the screenshot shows, putrid mark won’t be doing any transfer.

So, stop talking as if you could constantly transfer conditions back against a class whose resource system is easily regenerated and friendly to spam due to traits that allow you to quickly fill it back up on top of going into stealth.

The necro is not a 1v1 class. It just doesn’t have the pressure (read: necro damage is GARBAGE) or the sustained survivability (no real regen or offheals outside your healing skill, which is a 25 sec cd) to go against current 1v1 classes. So, do the reasonable thing and stick to people who will help you stay alive.

You’ll be surprised how helpful it is to stay around a guardian or ele. Get used to being focused because you are the easiest class to train by far in guild wars.

MyFe.1398:

and NO as a necro you can not counter EVERY single thief stealth skill. it is impossible. 2 fears and 1 daze vs 3/4 stealths that can be spammed much quicker than my skills can recharge..

2 stealths. Unless he steals from another thief.
Shadow Refuge (fear him out of the area or just nuke it and laugh)
Or Hide In Shadows (the heal). Three seconds of that on cooldown is more than enough time for your bleeds to do the job. Especially if you reflected any of his own by tanking caltrops purposefully.
Now listen closely, I’m gonna tell you a little secret. There’s this skill on the offhand dagger not many new/casual players know about. It’s called Cloak and Dagger and eats HALF of the thief’s initiative bar regardless of if he hits or not. Dodge at least one and you win, pretty much.

Tl;dr
OP wins all but one 1v1 matchup. Has the tools to win but cba to learn or practice—just nerf it instead.
Oh man I’ll have a good laugh come next month when necros (and aoe in general) get the nerf bat.

Vile.5678:

If you only ran into 2 or 3 Thieves who do this, don’t you think it’s a bit silly to be calling it out as OP already and wanting it to be nerfed?

I’m saying it is OP in a good players hands. I have run into many thiefs who try to do something similiar to this build and they all die easy.
But once the build is widly used it will be way overpowered. Im just saying I have run into 2/3 thiefs who could beat me every time 1v1 with this build. The culling or condition damage needs to be fixed..

Jumper.9482:

MyFe.1398:

and NO as a necro you can not counter EVERY single thief stealth skill. it is impossible. 2 fears and 1 daze vs 3/4 stealths that can be spammed much quicker than my skills can recharge..

2 stealths. Unless he steals from another thief.
Shadow Refuge (fear him out of the area or just nuke it and laugh)
Or Hide In Shadows (the heal). Three seconds of that on cooldown is more than enough time for your bleeds to do the job. Especially if you reflected any of his own by tanking caltrops purposefully.
Now listen closely, I’m gonna tell you a little secret. There’s this skill on the offhand dagger not many new/casual players know about. It’s called Cloak and Dagger and eats HALF of the thief’s initiative bar regardless of if he hits or not. Dodge at least one and you win, pretty much.

I have played vs many thiefs and i know how easy it is to kill most, it is hardly a laughing matter for them. when you face a good thief then let me know how you lost to them…

Jumper.9482:

MyFe.1398:

and NO as a necro you can not counter EVERY single thief stealth skill. it is impossible. 2 fears and 1 daze vs 3/4 stealths that can be spammed much quicker than my skills can recharge..

2 stealths. Unless he steals from another thief.
Shadow Refuge (fear him out of the area or just nuke it and laugh)
Or Hide In Shadows (the heal). Three seconds of that on cooldown is more than enough time for your bleeds to do the job. Especially if you reflected any of his own by tanking caltrops purposefully.
Now listen closely, I’m gonna tell you a little secret. There’s this skill on the offhand dagger not many new/casual players know about. It’s called Cloak and Dagger and eats HALF of the thief’s initiative bar regardless of if he hits or not. Dodge at least one and you win, pretty much.

I know there are more than 2 skills that give thief steal, I have played thief to see all their skills… you obviously don’t know how thief stealth works..

Hey! I recognize the name in that screenshot…

The only way I’m doing that dmg to you is if you let me go into stealth. That’s right I need to be close to you and hit you to go into stealth to kill you. If I miss that attack I’m in trouble.

Keep an eye out for the stealth hit inbound and dont let it happen and I’m out of luck.

Aquin.3192:

Hey! I recognize the name in that screenshot…

The only way I’m doing that dmg to you is if you let me go into stealth. That’s right I need to be close to you and hit you to go into stealth to kill you. If I miss that attack I’m in trouble.

Keep an eye out for the stealth hit inbound and dont let it happen and I’m out of luck.

I only have so many dodges… you can regain initiative faster than i can dodge. when it comes to culling i have to guess when to dodge sometimes.. other wise I never see the thief on the screen before it is ready to disappear again. I do not let thiefs disappear easily.. I’m saying Anet either needs to fix the culling issue or fix thiefs ability to do so much condition damage. I guess if it is not fixed by the next update then I will just have to figure out the build and post it on the forums and eventually it will build up to enough of a problem then it will have to be fixed like thiefs stun capabilities were in the past updates..
I really like thiefs, but there are a few things that need to be fixed about them. and the culling is the biggest one i have run into. Even when i play thief, I use a glass cannon and rarely stealth for other peoples sake, but the biggest issue i ran into with a GS thief build was culling/burst from other thiefs…. 2nd biggest was AOE damage from eles, so yes, i know thiefs need stealth to survive, but the culling/condition combo will be a huge issue in the future if it is not fixed now.

MyFe.1398:

I only have so many dodges…

what sigils are you using?

you can regain initiative faster than i can dodge. when it comes to culling i have to guess when to dodge sometimes..

No thief in the middle of combat is going to stealth twice in a row unless they running from you.
Judging from the screenshot this thief basically outplayed you

I guess if it is not fixed by the next update then I will just have to figure out the build and post it on the forums and eventually it will build up to enough of a problem then it will have to be fixed like thiefs stun capabilities were in the past updates..

KK have fun with that..though I really sure, this build is common knowledge now

I really like thiefs, but there are a few things that need to be fixed about them. and the culling is the biggest one i have run into. Even when i play thief, I use a glass cannon and rarely stealth for other peoples sake, but the biggest issue i ran into with a GS thief build was culling/burst from other thiefs…. 2nd biggest was AOE damage from eles, so yes, i know thiefs need stealth to survive, but the culling/condition combo will be a huge issue in the future if it is not fixed now.

Ele AoE?….You mean the big circles on the ground that say run please?

ok………….

You realize your a necro right?

P.S.

Just to help you out a little bit.

http://www.gw2db.com/skills/calc/thief#3|0|3537|134|2645|8743|4989|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|30|2383|2198|751|20|1165|1695|0|20|782|1166|0|10|3|1|61745|28023|49978|49978|49978|49978|49978|25903|48792|0|0|0|0|

Found this in the thief section ..

Like i said..pretty common knowledge

Aquin.3192:

Hey! I recognize the name in that screenshot…

The only way I’m doing that dmg to you is if you let me go into stealth. That’s right I need to be close to you and hit you to go into stealth to kill you. If I miss that attack I’m in trouble.

Keep an eye out for the stealth hit inbound and dont let it happen and I’m out of luck.

Look at this Ackwin guy, just look at him. Why do I see you everwhere?? Or should I say… see you only every 3 seconds, OOOOOOO I’m good

Some class match ups, and in particular spec match ups are nearly impossible to win.

I find beating a d/d aura elementalist in 1on1 with a thief just shy of impossible if the player piloting the elementalist is equally skilled.

I have a simple Staff and Scepter/war horn epidemic Necro build that I like to run. Thief condi builds are the EASIEST to go against 1v1 with this build! Let them throw many stacks of bleed on you, then throw putrid mark on them. Do they some how get “Hide in Shadows” off? Let the thief once again throw all of their bleeds on you, then throw it back in their face with Plague Signet. All of this on top of your normal mark spams and scepter attacks. Necros have plenty of health to absorb the bleeds for a short amount of time, enough to send it back to the thief.

So… what is the problem?

If you’re a condition necro, you’re practically the hard counter to this build. P/D thieves hate necros.

Get 8+ stacks of bleed on yourself, then use Plague Signet / Deathly Swarm / Putrid Mark and watch the thief melt himself.

Also, dodge the friggin CnD. When he gets close, he’s not there to give you a hug, he’s going to try to stealth with a melee attack. Dodgeing this makes him blow quite a bit of init, keeps him revealed, AND cuts his damage by a lot (sneak attack is the hardest hitter for P/D).

His only other forms of stealth come from (potentially) his heal and some utils. If he uses blinding powder, not much you can do, just dodge when you expect the Sneak Attack. Shadow Refuge? Throw down marks in the red circle, especially Reaper’s Mark, and it’ll most likely fear him out of his SR.

MyFe.1398:

Jumper.9482:

You do realize you are playing a necro right?
And you can counter every single one of his stealth casts with fears/daze?
And yes, you can transfer your condi’s by skillshotting it if you do so happen to screw up and let him stealth.
Not only that, but that particular thief build can only clear 1 condi per 3 seconds in stealth outside of their heal and shadow return (easy interrupt and long cooldown, respectively). Necros should have 4+ condi’s running. He won’t even shake half of them off with a normal stealth.

yes i know. but I can’t change all of my skills based on this one thief build that i’ve only vsed 3 competent opponents. normally as necro i can bring down any class 1v1, especially easy are melee thiefs or noob condition thiefs who stay visible long enough for me to cast fear and stay close enough while invisible for me to spread conditions. However vs this thief build I can do nothing in the long run… I may get lucky and hit them with a fear and a bleed and poison, but then they are invisible for a long time and only reappear when they have full health and my heal is still recharging… and NO as a necro you can not counter EVERY single thief stealth skill. it is impossible. 2 fears and 1 daze vs 3/4 stealths that can be spammed much quicker than my skills can recharge..

So let me get this straight. You can bring down every other build of every profession but this one build of one profession (that you should be a counter to btw) that has to stealth for 50% of the fight therefore not capping a point you complain about as being OP?

So what happens? You get them nerfed so that your necro can beat every build of every profession? Seems legit.

First, no condition necro should ever lose to a condition thief. You have too many wipes and transfers to make that possible.

Second, that thief is pistol and has to run up to you in order to stealth.

Third, you can condition transfer with the staff. Doesn’t matter if he is stealthed or not. It’s actually best to use this after his heal so the thief doesn’t wipe the bleeds.

You pretty much got outplayed by a spec you should stomp. Wouldn’t really make a post on the forums about it.

But here’s a pro tip. By the time the thief has full bleed stacks, he’s going to stealth because he has full bleed stacks as well. Get on top of him, use staff 4, and now he has 18 bleed stacks and no way to remove them.

Also, since you’re a condition necro, you have the ability to burst about 15+ stacks of bleeding on any target every 10 seconds.

@MyFe

Several times in this thread you’ve called this build “OP” in a good players hands. I’ll emphasize good player. It’s not OP, you are just being outplayed. Stop calling for nerfs when you just can’t figure out how to beat a playstyle.

I play a thief with the build you describe, and the two professions that I consistently cannot beat are necro’s and ele’s who know how to play their professions. Why? Because they can drop all of my conditions with no problems, and has been mentioned, I can only stealth so much.

Stop to Cry “thief Op”

BUT STOP TO DEFEND THIS CLASS NEED NERF AND STOP…..

Jumper.9482:

Tl;dr
OP wins all but one 1v1 matchup. Has the tools to win but cba to learn or practice—just nerf it instead.
Oh man I’ll have a good laugh come next month when necros (and aoe in general) get the nerf bat.

Probably not as much of a laugh as:

Tbh, it’s not easy as jumper make it.

P/D builds are of two kind:

venom leeching/share ( 20-0-30-20-0 or 30-0-30-0-10, but you’ll rarely see the latter in hotjoins) and caltrops ( 0-0-30-20-20).

OP was fighting against the last.

That build usually wipes condition while stealthed, and has a fair access to stealth ( 2 or 3, accordingly if he takes a stunbreak or Blinding power).

When stealthed, and if you need to wipe conditions, you can simply spam C&D as soon as revelead ends, and you’ll remove even the greatest amount of conditions ( 2 C&D means 6 secs of stealth, 1 cvopndition removed when stealth is entered, another one every 3 secs, meaning you can remove 4 conditions with 2 stealth entering) without having your opponent to figure out where you are.

Also, the thief regens 325 health per sec while stealthed ( 1k health per every C&D, in conjunction with shadow refuge it’s about 6 k healing).

Even more, thaty build regens ini fairly easier than other build, due to IX trait of acrobatics line, and has 15 ini default, so he can use almost 3 C&D in a row ( more than necro standard dodges) and dodge 3 times in a row to avoid marks.

The fight is easily in favour of the thief, even more if OP was using the flesh golem, which is a free stealth anytime you want.

P/D thieves are unbeatable 1vs1 if played well, the fight flow is totally in their hand, unless you get the jump on them and kill them with a timed burst ( something necros don’t have).

They can remove easily all conditions, and outheal any damage unless you burst them out.

The only reason why they’re not OP is because they can’t cap points while stealthed, being no use in a team.

the real kicker is that when they are visible they’ll be spamming dodge roll caltrops and death blossom so you wont be able to hit them anyway!

Mrbig.8019:

Tbh, it’s not easy as jumper make it.

P/D builds are of two kind:

venom leeching/share ( 20-0-30-20-0 or 30-0-30-0-10, but you’ll rarely see the latter in hotjoins) and caltrops ( 0-0-30-20-20).

OP was fighting against the last.

That build usually wipes condition while stealthed, and has a fair access to stealth ( 2 or 3, accordingly if he takes a stunbreak or Blinding power).

When stealthed, and if you need to wipe conditions, you can simply spam C&D as soon as revelead ends, and you’ll remove even the greatest amount of conditions ( 2 C&D means 6 secs of stealth, 1 cvopndition removed when stealth is entered, another one every 3 secs, meaning you can remove 4 conditions with 2 stealth entering) without having your opponent to figure out where you are.

Also, the thief regens 325 health per sec while stealthed ( 1k health per every C&D, in conjunction with shadow refuge it’s about 6 k healing).

Even more, thaty build regens ini fairly easier than other build, due to IX trait of acrobatics line, and has 15 ini default, so he can use almost 3 C&D in a row ( more than necro standard dodges) and dodge 3 times in a row to avoid marks.

You make this sound as if the fight only goes towards the thief, and honestly it does if you stand still and let him dance around you.

http://youtu.be/tz9p5ekQlvU

^ this is what a lot of people do when a thief stealths, stand around and turn like they are looking for a chucky doll in the middle of the night :I

As a necro if a thief stealths using his heal you should place a mark where he may be going not where he was, place a fear under your feet and watch him blow that up running, reapply conditions, and dodge roll cause like you said, he will be coming in for a C&D.

Shadow refuge is pretty easy since they have to stay in an area about the same size as your marks.

That rotation is predictable if you play to your strength’s, secondly.

Necro has more than just marks that apply conditions, using S/D they have access to an AoE cripple, as well as a blind and bleed, and you cant discount Death Shroud which also gives Another fear.

The fight is easily in favour of the thief, even more if OP was using the flesh golem, which is a free stealth anytime you want.

I’ll give you that, but that is a mistake made by the OP, and a silly one at that.

P/D thieves are unbeatable 1vs1 if played well, the fight flow is totally in their hand, unless you get the jump on them and kill them with a timed burst ( something necros don’t have).

They can remove easily all conditions, and outheal any damage unless you burst them out.

The only reason why they’re not OP is because they can’t cap points while stealthed, being no use in a team.

If by unbeatable you mean having the ease to disengage a fight at any time then yes, most well played thieves are unbeatable simply because they run if it doesnt go their way, and as stated, that doesnt help a team trying to cap points to win.

Necro, put marks under your feet, every time he gets into melee he gets hit by them.

Necro, put wells under your feet, you can turn all your bleeds/cripples into BUFFs, 30 seconds of regeneration, woo!

Daecollo.9578:

Necro, put marks under your feet, every time he gets into melee he gets hit by them.

Necro, put wells under your feet, you can turn all your bleeds/cripples into BUFFs, 30 seconds of regeneration, woo!

You do realise the thief, while in stealth can just dodge over your marks, set them all off and not be hit.

And thats a great idea, put your wells on your feet so that the thief can stand at the sidelines in stealth laughing at the fact you just used a bunch of cooldowns for nothing. The fact is that this build is impossible to beat without certain weapons and utilities. You justify that by saying to use these?

Dagger off hand – Useless if not condition build. (Necro’s have more than one viable build, its shocking I know)
Staff – Most people use this, but without greater marks its pretty hard to get you and the thief inside it.
Plague signet – Only used by selfish players, plus requires line of sight.
The well that turns conditions to boons (cant remember name) – Very few necros run this.

I dont know how people are defending this build, the argument of “If you dodge C+D they die” is false, they can just spam caltrop dodges on top of you (3 in a row) until they have the initiative back.

They heal when they use initiative.
They heal and remove conditions in stealth
They heal, remove all damaging conditions and go invisible using their 6 and shadow refuge

And all this while putting out insane condition damage, you just cant do enough damage using conditions especially to counter their healing and fast condition removal. And no class, except ele or guardian, or a necro that has horrible utility choices can remove their conditions fast enough.