Guild Wars 2

There aren’t any simple or effective solutions to the problems this game has in class matchup dynamics because Anet made the scope of what they can do far too wide.

Instead of drawing a line in the sand on power creep and establishing boundaries of what each class can do in PvP, Anet has quite intelligently decided to throw even more crap at the character building system and jack up runes and sigil stats even more.

So OP, none of those problems are going to be fixed because Anet has no idea what they’re doing.

I personally like how you keep the same steal abilities from underwater when you leave the water. All the underwater steals are different and quite effective on land. Take the stick for example aka Branch Bash. This hits like a truck and will crit and proc the fire sigil as well. I’ve practically ohk’ed light classes and even mediums while doing a number on tankier players. Another one was like Throw rock which had one of the craziest knockbacks. Though the only maps you could do this in was Capricorn and the old ToTSS before the water at Tranq was removed. Was somewhat fun while it lasted
But you still have WvW I guess

Oh and as powerful as steal is now, hey at least it doesn’t crit anymore right?

SaintSnow.6593:

Oh and as powerful as steal is now, hey at least it doesn’t crit anymore right?

The should change that, for PvE

Narcarsis.5739:

I know the build differences, I stand by what I said. It’s not necessarily a shot towards anyone but more of a compliment to Tage.

It’s shots fired when you say that Guards are pretty easy to kill 1v1 as a Thief except Tage, when that’s not really the case. I can’t imagine even a decent AH guard being killable for you in any sort of reasonable time frame, and I’ll back that up with duels anytime.

just dont forget thieves have to invest 40 trait points for that. Without it Steal doesn’t do anything except stealing the profession ability.

I would agree that thieves are strong, but you are extremely incorrect when saying that there is no counter play involved. A good thief will roll just about anyone, but that’s because you just get outplayed. kitten like hambow, condi wars, spirit rangers, MM necros are the bullkitten that should be looked at.

Lotus.1682:

I would agree that thieves are strong, but you are extremely incorrect when saying that there is no counter play involved. A good thief will roll just about anyone, but that’s because you just get outplayed. kitten like hambow, condi wars, spirit rangers, MM necros are the bullkitten that should be looked at.

You’re wrong.

Thief has no counterplay because the class revolves around uncounterable mechanics such as stealth (no way to react to abilities being used in stealth other than random dodging), steal (instant cast), and highest mobility in game via high access to shadow steps which become even more effective when encountering maps with an accent on the z-axis element (notably temple and kyhlo)

The argument that thieves in high end pvp are just “outplaying” everybody is silly. As two players begin to approach the skill cap for their respective classes the thief becomes more and more effective given that the thief learns the abilities of their opponent and how to react to them/counter them while the enemy is stuck random dodging and throwing abilities everywhere hoping that the thief kittens up.

What this means is that the thief has the capacity to win many 1v1’s if they play well, and practically every 1v1 if they play perfectly. Mind me, this is no easy task, but is unbalanced given that the opponent doesn’t have the capacity to play perfectly in the matchup because of the class mechanics.

Despite all this, you rarely/never need to engage in 1v1’s given the classes mobility. You can just decap empty points all game and out rotate forcing the enemy into a virtual 4v5 if they don’t have their own thief. This is the reason you see a thief in pretty much every competitive team at the moment, as the only way to deal with this is to bring your own and do the same thing.

You can see an example of a no thief vs double thief team if you watch the vods of the last NA Mistpedia weekly cup over at twitch.tv/blu42 where Caed subbed in for team Good Fights and we played double thief vs Outplayed by Children who had no thief. I would like to point out that we played the composition poorly given that we had never practiced it before but it’s still worth checking out as Helseth is featured as a guest shoutcaster and gives some interesting insight about thieves in competitive pvp.

cymerdown.4103:

Narcarsis.5739:

I know the build differences, I stand by what I said. It’s not necessarily a shot towards anyone but more of a compliment to Tage.

It’s shots fired when you say that Guards are pretty easy to kill 1v1 as a Thief except Tage, when that’s not really the case. I can’t imagine even a decent AH guard being killable for you in any sort of reasonable time frame, and I’ll back that up with duels anytime.

It’s more that Tage doesn’t die, at all. Everyone else does.

Narcarsis.5739:

cymerdown.4103:

Narcarsis.5739:

I know the build differences, I stand by what I said. It’s not necessarily a shot towards anyone but more of a compliment to Tage.

It’s shots fired when you say that Guards are pretty easy to kill 1v1 as a Thief except Tage, when that’s not really the case. I can’t imagine even a decent AH guard being killable for you in any sort of reasonable time frame, and I’ll back that up with duels anytime.

It’s more that Tage doesn’t die, at all. Everyone else does.

LET’S DO THIS! Stream it please.

Funny how so many people are acting like the entire class of thief is OP by taking a look at a single, fully traited ability, then ignoring all other aspects of thief as well as how it fits in the current meta. =P

If any of you have played starcraft 2 in WoL, there seems to be this resemblance between terran and thief concerning skill cap. Sure, terran/thief has a higher skill cap and thus higher potential, but really, when is this “maximum” or god-tier potential ever reached? When are absolutely perfect marine splits achieved? Hardly.

I think if people are going to argue imbalance, one needs to define it. Do you mean unbalanced as when two players of equal skill level play the two classes and one class clearly comes out on top, or unbalanced as in one class has a higher skill cap than the other?

Aeroxe.8140:

If any of you have played starcraft 2 in WoL, there seems to be this resemblance between terran and thief concerning skill cap. Sure, terran/thief has a higher skill cap and thus higher potential, but really, when is this “maximum” or god-tier potential ever reached? When are absolutely perfect marine splits achieved? Hardly.

I think if people are going to argue imbalance, one needs to define it. Do you mean unbalanced as when two players of equal skill level play the two classes and one class clearly comes out on top, or unbalanced as in one class has a higher skill cap than the other?

i think they mean less counterplay kinda like how protoss in sc2 can get free positioning with those forcefields

Narcarsis.5739:

cymerdown.4103:

Narcarsis.5739:

I know the build differences, I stand by what I said. It’s not necessarily a shot towards anyone but more of a compliment to Tage.

It’s shots fired when you say that Guards are pretty easy to kill 1v1 as a Thief except Tage, when that’s not really the case. I can’t imagine even a decent AH guard being killable for you in any sort of reasonable time frame, and I’ll back that up with duels anytime.

It’s more that Tage doesn’t die, at all. Everyone else does.

I don’t remember ever playing a game or a duel against you on ah guard, so how would you even know that?

What a lot of people in this thread fail to realize is that the F skills are intended to be really strong across all professions. Thief is included in that. I don’t really have an issue with the current set up.

style.6173:

What a lot of people in this thread fail to realize is that the F skills are intended to be really strong across all professions. Thief is included in that. I don’t really have an issue with the current set up.

Guardian’s F skills SO STRONG. Not.

OhMyTaeyeon.5831:

style.6173:

What a lot of people in this thread fail to realize is that the F skills are intended to be really strong across all professions. Thief is included in that. I don’t really have an issue with the current set up.

Guardian’s F skills SO STRONG. Not.

Are you serious???

You must not play guardian. It has good F skills. Try putting some points in the virtues line and you’ll see what I mean. There is a reason the current meta is 30 points in virtues.

style.6173:

OhMyTaeyeon.5831:

style.6173:

What a lot of people in this thread fail to realize is that the F skills are intended to be really strong across all professions. Thief is included in that. I don’t really have an issue with the current set up.

Guardian’s F skills SO STRONG. Not.

Are you serious???

You must not play guardian. It has good F skills. Try putting some points in the virtues line and you’ll see what I mean. There is a reason the current meta is 30 points in virtues.

Virtues have counter play though. They are subject to the general rules of the game: boon steal/strips and blinds (for voj). This is probably why there are no complaints about virtues. They have counters.

Aza.2105:

style.6173:

OhMyTaeyeon.5831:

style.6173:

What a lot of people in this thread fail to realize is that the F skills are intended to be really strong across all professions. Thief is included in that. I don’t really have an issue with the current set up.

Guardian’s F skills SO STRONG. Not.

Are you serious???

You must not play guardian. It has good F skills. Try putting some points in the virtues line and you’ll see what I mean. There is a reason the current meta is 30 points in virtues.

Virtues have counter play though. They are subject to the general rules of the game: boon steal/strips and blinds (for voj). This is probably why there are no complaints about virtues. They have counters.

Then why do people put 30 points in virtues.

The point of my comment wasn’t whether any of the F skills for any profession are TOO strong. My point is that they tend to be highly used. It is intended.

I honestly haven’t read very much of this thread. So with that said…

The thief stolen abilities from ele is pretty much a direct counter. Chill is ridiculously strong against ele. If applied outside of water attunement it could mean being near useless for the next 10 seconds. Every thief that opens on me just spams their steal hotkey on me when I’m in range and then I have poison and chill on me strait away.

I think the chill duration is too long. Besides that though chill is way too strong against elementalist in general and it needs to be looked at immediately, it’s a huge deal.

style.6173:

Aza.2105:

style.6173:

OhMyTaeyeon.5831:

style.6173:

What a lot of people in this thread fail to realize is that the F skills are intended to be really strong across all professions. Thief is included in that. I don’t really have an issue with the current set up.

Guardian’s F skills SO STRONG. Not.

Are you serious???

You must not play guardian. It has good F skills. Try putting some points in the virtues line and you’ll see what I mean. There is a reason the current meta is 30 points in virtues.

Virtues have counter play though. They are subject to the general rules of the game: boon steal/strips and blinds (for voj). This is probably why there are no complaints about virtues. They have counters.

Then why do people put 30 points in virtues.

The point of my comment wasn’t whether any of the F skills for any profession are TOO strong. My point is that they tend to be highly used. It is intended.

Yea but how strong is too strong? My perspective is anything without counter play is destined to become overpowered because of misuse. The op is right steal does a lot for just one skill.

I play a thief and a warrior and I would say it takes substantially more skill to play the thief. As a bunker/banner warrior I just shield slammed/bashed/condi horned them till they gave up. Warriors are just much easier to play and have a much higher utility for the team than thieves.

Thieves are not part of any typical meta. They are considered leaches in WvW and everyone groans in sPvP when there’s more than one. They are strong 1v1, but that is SUCH a small part of pvp (especially with no dueling mechanism) that it’s not super relevant. Although I find the thief more fun to play I usually play my warrior since it’s more accepted in groups.

Karl McLain.5604:

Thanks for the well-composed feedback and civil conversation everyone. The effectiveness of stolen items is something we’ve talked about internally as well. With the lower recharge on Steal, we’re monitoring the effectiveness of a few of these abilities and continuing to collect your thoughts on the topic.
Cheers,
-Karl

I read this as, “Nice feedback. We’re not going to do anything about it. Have a nice day”

Thedenofsin.7340:

Karl McLain.5604:

Thanks for the well-composed feedback and civil conversation everyone. The effectiveness of stolen items is something we’ve talked about internally as well. With the lower recharge on Steal, we’re monitoring the effectiveness of a few of these abilities and continuing to collect your thoughts on the topic.
Cheers,
-Karl

I read this as, “Nice feedback. We’re not going to do anything about it. Have a nice day”

Perhaps you should take the hint?

krow.4836:

I play a thief and a warrior and I would say it takes substantially more skill to play the thief. As a bunker/banner warrior I just shield slammed/bashed/condi horned them till they gave up. Warriors are just much easier to play and have a much higher utility for the team than thieves.

Thieves are not part of any typical meta. They are considered leaches in WvW and everyone groans in sPvP when there’s more than one. They are strong 1v1, but that is SUCH a small part of pvp (especially with no dueling mechanism) that it’s not super relevant. Although I find the thief more fun to play I usually play my warrior since it’s more accepted in groups.

How come you missed the part where it was mentioned several times that thiefs are part of -any- competitive tournament team?

saVdoom.2067:

krow.4836:

I play a thief and a warrior and I would say it takes substantially more skill to play the thief. As a bunker/banner warrior I just shield slammed/bashed/condi horned them till they gave up. Warriors are just much easier to play and have a much higher utility for the team than thieves.

Thieves are not part of any typical meta. They are considered leaches in WvW and everyone groans in sPvP when there’s more than one. They are strong 1v1, but that is SUCH a small part of pvp (especially with no dueling mechanism) that it’s not super relevant. Although I find the thief more fun to play I usually play my warrior since it’s more accepted in groups.

How come you missed the part where it was mentioned several times that thiefs are part of -any- competitive tournament team?

You can’t balance a class around the best players…ie above several people mention Caed as showcasing how OP thieves are when < 1% of thieves can pull off what he does. Similarly, not many engis had the success of Ostrich Eggs. 99% of players play in pickups, solo queues, etc and that’s the point of balance. Sure, exceptional thiefs are accepted by their group, but that same player would be accepted in whatever class they played. You might as easily say that Guardians are OP since they also appear in every tournament. If the composition of winning teams is 4 thieves and a guardian than you can conclude that thieves are OP.

evilapprentice.6379:

Thedenofsin.7340:

Karl McLain.5604:

Thanks for the well-composed feedback and civil conversation everyone. The effectiveness of stolen items is something we’ve talked about internally as well. With the lower recharge on Steal, we’re monitoring the effectiveness of a few of these abilities and continuing to collect your thoughts on the topic.
Cheers,
-Karl

I read this as, “Nice feedback. We’re not going to do anything about it. Have a nice day”

Perhaps you should take the hint?

I did. I’ve been playing other MMO’s and MOBAs, like Smite.