Guild Wars 2

Hello guys,

first of all i would say the patch is actually pretty good, but what they did with the thief is something very, very odd.

Let’s start

Mug

This is probably the most odd one.

I know you want to increase thief sustained power and give him more survivability, but what you did to Mug makes little to no sense.

No, i’m not talking about the damage ( no crit for mug) since we all know you wanted to reduce thief burst and i’m not going to disagree/agree with it, but i’m talking about the heal.

It now heals for 2 k.

WHY OMG.

Steal is usally used for the burst combo, mostly used at full health after roaming.

A thief will never take advantage of the heal, as long as it is on a 45 secs CD.

If you really want to make steal help thief survivability, having it on such a long CD makes no sense: make it part of thief sustained damage combo and reduce DRASTICALLY its CD, since a 2k mug damage ( after nerf, and in full zerker gear and glass cannon build) is hardly gamebreaking; it could have been pre-nerf, now it’s totally worthless.

Signets

Ok, you made signets overall better across all classes.

But now assassin signets makes no sense.

I do ALMOST THE SAME DAMAGE with or without the activation, and since now i can no longer benefit from crit damage from mug ( which was a HUGE part of our burst).

Now if i activate the signet not only i do almost the same damage with my burst combo, but i’ll also lose a flat 180 power for my following damage for 45 secs.

Seriously, no.

Signet of shadow is still horrible, inf signet is still redundant and altough ( maybe) signet of agility buff will open up more builds, maybe with soldier amulet ( especially with S/D), without buffing base damage/adjusting damage trait power scaling, unless we go FULL GLASS we can’t deal decent damage like other classes.

Shortbow

Crazy nerf. This was really crazy.

Now no decent opponent will ever be hit by trick shot, even if stay on the ledge spamming there’s no way to make it land as long as your opponent moves.

And no, it won’t make me choose P/P instead, because inf arrow is still the only thing able to make the thief a good roamer ( and allows me to travel in z-axis at will).

You just outright killed thief effectiveness in team fights ( something which was already underwhelming).

With no compensation.

S/D

Good change, but S/D is still bad. Surely not because of the added utility from Flanking strike, but due to OH dagger being USELESS and due to Tactical Strike not being rewarding enough when compared to other stealth skills ( especially backstab).

Dancing dagger is not worth the initiative spent ( bad damage, bad utility), C&D deals bad damage ( bad damage, good utility, ini expensive) and is a good part of the set.

The set, moreover, suffers of thief main problem: damage scaling.

Unless you go FULL GLASS, damage is very poor: you need at least 2 damage trait multipliers ( grandmasters) and there ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in our traits for the sword.

Moreover it’s a very, VERY slow set.

Haste

Haste is the more punishing among quickness punishments. We lose all endurance and have slower endu regen for a while, meanwhile wars and ranger had all their debuffs reduced by 50% ( heal/damage).

It makes no sense.

MAKE IT TO LOSE 50% ENDU AND 50% SLOWER ENDU REGEN, like other effects.

Overall

1. Thief burst nerfed, but overall burst thieves effectiveness has been increased. Glass thieves now have a flat +180 power from signet and have no reason to activate the signet, while still outputting the same damage ( all backstabs will deal 10% more damage instead of having it increased by 15% for a SINGLE time).

2. Thief viability in teamfights has been killed. Shortbow nerf is huge, now our ranged sustained is GONE.

3. Still no build diversity. In order to be effective , you still need the shortbow for roaming ( altough it sucks now) and even if you go with S/D, in order to be effective you need to build full glass.

4. There’s a serious problem with the thief at the moment regarding sinergy and builds.
If you really wanted to nerf the shortbow you should just outright remove inf arrow and rehaul our weapon sets, because we’ll ALWAYS bring it in competitive PvP due to it alone. Yes, due to a single skill.

And due to the fact it’s our only AoE weapon ( bringing AoE poison and cluster bomb).

We also have only one build and always will unless you do something to base damage /damage multiplier/ traits.

And it’s seriously needed.

5. Other sets planly suck. P/P, S/P , P/D , condition builds, D/D ( compared to D/P) are outrageous.

Conclusion

If you want to increase thief sustained damage, this is not the way to go.

Initiative, Steal mechanic, traits and base damage, weapon sets issues are the way to go.

Start doing something, because our viability in high tier Pv kitten iously hindered now thanks to the shortbow nerf.

You found a way to effectively nerf the thief without annoying the noob thief fanbase ( dagger dps has been actually buffed thanks to sin signet buff) , effectively reducing at 10% the number of people who will whine about this patch ( regarding the thief).

Please, do something to the worst designed class of all MMO history. Thanks.

I still get hit for 9 k backstab. I demand a nerf. Smiter boon the 123 spammers, kitten

KarlaGrey.5903:

I still get hit for 9 k backstab. I demand a nerf. Smiter boon the 123 spammers, kitten

It’s actually even easier to do it right now. Before you had to activate the kitten signet, now you can keep it passive without losing damage.

ROFL.

Amazing, rite.

/Message Body length must at least be 15.

I honestly can’t believe they didn’t changed assassin signet active. I was so expecting them to do it when they were like “yeah we changed signet of might active because it would make no sense to keep it that way now”.

Whatever, maybe in 2 months (since next patch will be bug fixes as they said) they will actually make something new viable, like maybe i’ll have something else than deceptions, signet of agility/assassin ( or shadow to travel and switch it before battles, in pve at least) to go inside my utility skills.

Its still pushing 2. I watched about 2 hours of thief in spectator today and the new boon steal is at least a new mechanic but still almost everything I saw was backstab, 2, 2, 2. Maybe I was watching noobs but they seemed to be doing well.

kailin.4905:

Its still pushing 2. I watched about 2 hours of thief in spectator today and the new boon steal is at least a new mechanic but still almost everything I saw was backstab, 2, 2, 2. Maybe I was watching noobs but they seemed to be doing well.

that’s the issue. the class is seriously hampered at high level but in hotjoins no one will notice.
so no one will complain

Haste is a joke.

It’s a troll skill.

You use it to troll yourself.

kailin.4905:

Its still pushing 2. I watched about 2 hours of thief in spectator today and the new boon steal is at least a new mechanic but still almost everything I saw was backstab, 2, 2, 2. Maybe I was watching noobs but they seemed to be doing well.

The new Boonsteal is so incredibly amazing IMHO. You just shouldn’t play it on a glasscannon-build, but with Valk-Amu. Valk-Amu now is actually pretty decent on a Thief, because if I don’t get it wrong somehow, it will work for the New Mug and for potential Regen you steal off of enemies.

That’s the balanced roamer I’m playing atm.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAV8YlYmiO3by9E9JFx2jd2Te6V4raFoZnCuKfA-TsAA0CnImRNjbGzMyZszMsYZxWEA

I’ve played it before the patch and I liked it, but all the new changes actually made this build better. Way better DPS, Flanking Strike is extremely good (especially because you can cast flanking strike without a target and then teleport to your target and get an easy lacerating strike in) and a bit better sustain.

Mrbig.8019:

Signet of shadow is still horrible

I hate to pick apart an overall well written post for one minor detail, but it bothers me how many thieves say this.

Signet of Shadows passive is great for roaming and general out-of-combat mobility. Its passive is bar none the best way to secure stomps if you don’t have an offhand pistol. Seriously now, what’s not to love?

I saw BS thieves criting for 10k in sPvP so yeah, if you are asking for assassin’s signet to be change, do not expect a dmg burst utility cuz it will surely be something else.

Also, saying that GC is the only way to go its just diminishing… I have not played as a GC for months…

As for S/D yes it has improved and it is a viable weapon set now. If you ask me if it could be better, yes it could and should since it is now the “counter to bunkers” it should have a bit higher dps but last night I played around with it and after a couple of hours I was killing everything as fast as a D/P thief would.

If you are wondering what my build is, it’s 10/30/30/0/0. Normally I’d have the 10 in Acro but I wanted to test out mug that’s why the 10 are in Deadly arts.

The only point I fully agree with the o kitten ort bow…the nerf was not needed and I’m still trying to understand the reasons behind the nerf… Unfortunately it is the ONLY “must have” weapon making us have to chose 1 single weapon set to use mainly.

Maybe that was the reason… Nerf it so ppl would start using 2 different weapon sets in combat leaving SB shelved. Anyway… Bad idea imo. As long as SB is the only weapon set with the shadowstep in the z axis. No one will drop it.

/start rant
Also in wvwvw it is the ONLY weapon that actually contributes for the team/raid…

As for reveled rollback in pve… It was needed but will be a mess in ppl’s heads… After 1h in pve when you enter pvp you will be “use to” the pve timer and we all know how that was wen they first changed it to 4sec…

IMO this is one of thoughts things that should be the same for all aspects of the game… Splitting dmg is one thing splitting core mechanic timers, imo, bad idea… Ppl have to get use to they’re abilities every time they what to do something different…
Anet constantly encourages us to play in all aspects of the game and the reveled mechanic is just punishing players that do just that.
/end runt

Saital.4819:

Mrbig.8019:

Signet of shadow is still horrible

I hate to pick apart an overall well written post for one minor detail, but it bothers me how many thieves say this.

Signet of Shadows passive is great for roaming and general out-of-combat mobility. Its passive is bar none the best way to secure stomps if you don’t have an offhand pistol. Seriously now, what’s not to love?

Active is only really good against guardians if you’re not using pistol off hand, everything else you can cloak and dagger and stomp, it’s just as effective. The active is honestly really bad. The long range immobilize was a real active i actually bothered using alot and still would with the 25% movement speed version.

I couldn’t play last night due to family obligations so I didn’t test it out. What did the note about CnD do? I was expecting it to effectively have a 100% chance to crit if you have the trait to crit from stealth. Is this not the case? Is it honestly just going to crit if you’re stupid enough to use CnD while in stealth?

I also agree and don’t agree with the shortbow issue. It should never have been homing, that’s obvious. No other projectile is homing (actually this could be a lie, can Warrior Rifle miss or is it like Pistols where there really isn’t a projectile?). The issue now is the projectile’s speed. If you’re not going to make it homing then the projectile’s speed should match the Ranger’s shortbow projectile speed. Otherwise you just put the thief in the same position Rangers were in 6 months ago where people will just sidestep all the shots.

Mug I actually am indifferent on. It was obvious they were going to nerf it because they kept harping on the thief’s burst and have mentioned mug by name repeatedly. I’m also not concerned with the change because it just means I’ll use the spell differently. Since I don’t run glass it was never a real burst skill for me so I’m cool with the change.

I also agree with dagger off-hand. If CnD doesn’t gain the benefit of the Hidden Killer and have a 100% chance to crit when used to stealth it’s absolutely useless because no one will use it from stealth it’s simply too expensive for the damage it does. And I honestly can’t believe dancing dagger hasn’t been changed already. The skill isn’t worth 2 initiative let alone 4.

I’m also very annoyed that pistol hasn’t gotten any attention at all. The whole set is awful aside from black powder for the offhand. Not a single other thing about the weapon is worth using. I’d argue not even Pistol Whip.

The sword also doesn’t compliment stealth at all like you said. I really wish the sword had a burst option somewhere, but it’s all just sustained damage with the high damage ‘burst’ coming from autoattack. Tactical strike really should do something more as a stealth move. Daze isn’t as powerful as you’d think it would be with a short duration like it has. Since it’s a sword why not give it a parry/riposte move where you block the next attack within 5 seconds and immediately counter attack or something.

Now like I said, I haven’t played so I haven’t messed with the signets yet so I don’t know. But I’m sure your analysis is pretty much spot on.

The only really viable quickness atm it’s tw cause it has no debuffs (Even with ages of cd) so it’s still worth it, for everything else giving a bad malus for nerfed quickness it’s probably not so good, expec if you have to drop other important ut skills for it…

With 4 sec revelead
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Instinctual_Response
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Last_Refuge
needs rework to 1 sec invulnerable

I haven’t been able to play after the patch so far, but I feel pessimistic about playing my Thief ever again.

Archaon.6245:

The only really viable quickness atm it’s tw cause it has no debuffs (Even with ages of cd) so it’s still worth it, for everything else giving a bad malus for nerfed quickness it’s probably not so good, expec if you have to drop other important ut skills for it…

You don’t play too many different characters, do you?

I main shortbow and honestly I didn’t really seem to have much trouble with it last night.

garbage class like the warrior. Needs great team to carry it. Thiefs represented in high end teams are carried but, when carried correctly, brought great elimination burst that could tip a fight in a quick time period.

now the burst has been nerfed. the team aoe suppression dmg nerfed via s/b changes…and the boon strip novelty will be exposed soon enough as cute but worthless in a meta of heavy aoe teamfights from engies/necros/mesmers and to some extent rangers.

there will be some die hard thiefs with groups reluctant enough to continue to carry them to greatness. I would wager the #1 team will not have a thief. and the teams that do roster one will always consider it a liability that could potentially be changed to a more potent roster spot with a different prof.

Volrath.1473:

I saw BS thieves criting for 10k in sPvP so yeah, if you are asking for assassin’s signet to be change, do not expect a dmg burst utility cuz it will surely be something else.

Also, saying that GC is the only way to go its just diminishing… I have not played as a GC for months…

As for S/D yes it has improved and it is a viable weapon set now. If you ask me if it could be better, yes it could and should since it is now the “counter to bunkers” it should have a bit higher dps but last night I played around with it and after a couple of hours I was killing everything as fast as a D/P thief would.

If you are wondering what my build is, it’s 10/30/30/0/0. Normally I’d have the 10 in Acro but I wanted to test out mug that’s why the 10 are in Deadly arts.

The only point I fully agree with the o kitten ort bow…the nerf was not needed and I’m still trying to understand the reasons behind the nerf… Unfortunately it is the ONLY “must have” weapon making us have to chose 1 single weapon set to use mainly.

Maybe that was the reason… Nerf it so ppl would start using 2 different weapon sets in combat leaving SB shelved. Anyway… Bad idea imo. As long as SB is the only weapon set with the shadowstep in the z axis. No one will drop it.

/start rant
Also in wvwvw it is the ONLY weapon that actually contributes for the team/raid…

As for reveled rollback in pve… It was needed but will be a mess in ppl’s heads… After 1h in pve when you enter pvp you will be “use to” the pve timer and we all know how that was wen they first changed it to 4sec…

IMO this is one of thoughts things that should be the same for all aspects of the game… Splitting dmg is one thing splitting core mechanic timers, imo, bad idea… Ppl have to get use to they’re abilities every time they what to do something different…
Anet constantly encourages us to play in all aspects of the game and the reveled mechanic is just punishing players that do just that.
/end runt

a 10-30-30 build is still “almost” glass cannon with less utility due to stealth not preventing decap.
as long as you put 30 in SA in order to pick shadow rejuvenation, you’ve an attrition build, sub par in PvP and overnerfed after 15november patch, when it was something like the strongest thief build in game.

in order to play S/D I would spend point in acro I order to get more ini and spam FS like if thers is no tomorrow (15-30-0-25), but currently we’re even more pigeonholed thn befoee: now 180 power from signet is TOO GOOD and other utilities don’t offer anything close to such a damage buff.
S/D damage is very bad when compared to dagger damage (even its sustained) and it’s also very, VERY slow and clunky, and hard countered by blind.

D/P Glass cannon is still the way to go to be a thief (altough I’ll go hipster and play S/D and kitten the leaderboards), with the onoy difference that now we’re totally useless from range thanks to shortbow nerf.

I love it when a thief says there are no rewarding stealth openers because the only rewarding one is the one that crits for 8-10k on non-bunkers.

Or that his OP shortbow cluster/1 spam was their only viable role in teamfights. You mean abusing map ledges with infiltrator arrows so nobody can touch you while you pepper entire groups of people with ridiculous ranged damage nobody but the HGH grenadier can do better.

I really hope this is just the beginning. Take a good nerf hammer to all that kitten spike and sheer avoidance, and add in more healing/sustained presence in combat instead. There’s nothing cheesier for classes that are not eles/mesmers than a thief just taking off half their health and spamming heartseeker. If it fails, just shadow refuge or black powder/heartseeker retreat and try again with another backstab once their defensive cd’s are recharging.

But hey, entire teams should coordinate to negate a thief from destroying one of their players. And bunkers should continue to be abundant as every other glass cannon besides thieves or mesmer gets farmed by GC thieves.

Don’t know what you talking about Big with sins signet being too good. New signet of agility is straight up delicious. Just what the doctor ordered.I’ll have to test it but leeching venom buff makes venoms a bit stronger for thief and allies so that’s a good benefit too.

Haste should def get a change to lose all endurance. They got to start bringing the stun breaks in line with each other so they are credible as stand alone then compliments to Shadow step.

Hopefully dancing daggers and P/D get some good buffs. Maybe they’ll divide shadow strike like flanking strike.

Thiefs are fine. Kind of sad we lost a little with mug nerf, but s/d really provides new options – just wait until people get good with it.

ensoriki.5789:

Don’t know what you talking about Big. New signet of agility is straight up delicious.

if you go for power you don’t really need more crit chance.

I’ve yet to try a common build with valkyrie (or soldier) with agility signet and see how it fares, but 180 power is really too good to pass out. you have a passive +10% damage always up, really too good.

ensoriki.5789:

Don’t know what you talking about Big with sins signet being too good. New signet of agility is straight up delicious. Just what the doctor ordered.I’ll have to test it but leeching venom buff makes venoms a bit stronger for thief and allies so that’s a good benefit too.

Haste should def get a change to lose all endurance. They got to start bringing the stun breaks in line with each other so they are credible as stand alone then compliments to Shadow step.

Hopefully dancing daggers and P/D get some good buffs. Maybe they’ll divide shadow strike like flanking strike.

i have yet to try valk builds with signet of agility, but if you build for damage you don’t really need more crit chance but more power instead. and 180 power is really A LOT : flat 10% damage increase, no need to activate it, just keep it passive and profit.

what os currently killing venom share builds is the fact you need to sacrifice other utilities (like refuge, or even the stunbreak) in order to make them worthy: moreover they’ in built in 2 traitlines with little to no sinergy in stats (SA/DA), scaling with power, with strange results in order to make a sinergyzed builds (like S/P venom share, with no real use in battle aside buffing allies).

no matters how you look at thief traits-u-skills and weapons, it’s really all a mess.

I still use my 0 10 30 30 0 build. I still kill. I know that this is not viable for a burst class, but due to the recent nerfs we can’t play our class like we did before. We have to adapt and change our role in tpvp. We are no longer able to burst someone down in few seconds, not even whit full glass cannon traits and gears.

I have been using a 0-25-30-15- and it works just fine. Personally I love how much vigor I can get from eles, and when ever I heal, (with this build). I don’t have mug but I don’t really need it.

Personally I am having fun with the new Flanking strike. But it could just be me. The only thing that really slows me down in tPvP is condis. So maybe a REALLY good HGH engi, or a decent necro.

Frenk.5917:

I still use my 0 10 30 30 0 build. I still kill. I know that this is not viable for a burst class, but due to the recent nerfs we can’t play our class like we did before. We have to adapt and change our role in tpvp. We are no longer able to burst someone down in few seconds, not even whit full glass cannon traits and gears.

You don’t suddenly “change” your role in tPvP.

Your role in tPvP is given by what you bring to the table.

The thief offered great burst and good ranged AoE sustained damage ( if not focused).

Now we still have good burst but no longer ranged AoE sustained damage.

Without compensation, there’s no way a thief will eve be useful again in a team ( yes, shortbow nerf is really THAT bad).

Now S/D thieves have a chance to rise, but the set is still heavily subpar when compared to D/P and it’s mostly due to OH dagger skills being utterly crap.

And due to trait sinergy being horrible for sword thieves.

It’s not that a simple buff to a skill ( unless it sinergies good with traits, like Shadow arts tree and tactical strike pre-nerf were) suddenly makes the set good, at least with the thief class.

There at aNet should start to understand this.

It’s pretty close. Once dancing daggers gets reworked/buffed.

It’s not only dancing dagger.

If they want to nerf the shortbow, REMOVE INF ARROW and reahul the skill to do somethign else, don’t make it so borken you can’t even land an auto-attack.

I’ve said it before and i’ll say it again: till inf arrow is there, NOBODY will ever take anything else as a secondary weapon set.

Even in that situations, other sets are ust plainly horrible.

Dancing dagger is the main failure of all /D and arguably worse than body shot.
Sword 2 is beast, 3 is great outside of no evade cancel. 5 is definitely helpful though the 3% vul isn’t much of a steroid. 1 is a great way to re-engage after stealth and can help stop stomps/predicted heals. 4 is 80% useless and I’m being generous.
The only other significant flaw is a lack of dots to synergize with trickery.
Everything else is minor.

I suggested before making all infiltration skills ground targetted will pick away at the short bow naturally at the cost of making sword play harder.

now the D/D glass is usless, lucy there is S/P or D/P

ensoriki.5789:

Dancing dagger is the main failure of all /D and arguably worse than body shot.
Sword 2 is beast, 3 is great outside of no evade cancel. 5 is definitely helpful though the 3% vul isn’t much of a steroid. 1 is a great way to re-engage after stealth and can help stop stomps/predicted heals. 4 is 80% useless and I’m being generous.
The only other significant flaw is a lack of dots to synergize with trickery.
Everything else is minor.

I suggested before making all infiltration skills ground targetted will pick away at the short bow naturally at the cost of making sword play harder.

I don’t think make all teleports grounf-targeted is the solution, at least currently.

Making inf strike ground targeted when you don’t have a target selected would make sword ludicrolously OP ad disangaging ( baddding up ? shadow return and inf strike away, GG) with a very little cost ( you can potentially travel 1800 range for 5 ini).

Making it ground targeted without a target would SURELY increase inf strike/return cost, something that will surely break the set.

Another solution, as i said plenty of time, could be to increase ini regen BY A LOT, increase ini costs across the board and make all these worthless skills powerful .

It would increase thief pacing, and make stuff like having inf strike ground targeted as balanced.

They could also make stuff like dancing dagger and C&D good ( dancing dagger could
deal great damage when bouncing + some condition, making it basically like trick shot on a OH dagger set) and with some new traits and sinergy ( devs already said they’re going to make better thief traits and fuse togheter unworthy ones) could seriously create more builds.

Anyway, C&D in its current state also needs some help. It’s clearly subpar to BP+HS and needs something else.

Stealth surely needs to stay, but damage/vuln need serious buff, just like Dancing Dagger and Pistol Whip.

I wonder if the OP has changed his opinion about S/D, 25 30 0 0 15 and make #3 auto attack and you don’t even need to press any skills, people just die lmao! too funny

Mrbig.8019:

Frenk.5917:

I still use my 0 10 30 30 0 build. I still kill. I know that this is not viable for a burst class, but due to the recent nerfs we can’t play our class like we did before. We have to adapt and change our role in tpvp. We are no longer able to burst someone down in few seconds, not even whit full glass cannon traits and gears.

You don’t suddenly “change” your role in tPvP.

Your role in tPvP is given by what you bring to the table.

The thief offered great burst and good ranged AoE sustained damage ( if not focused).

Now we still have good burst but no longer ranged AoE sustained damage.

Without compensation, there’s no way a thief will eve be useful again in a team ( yes, shortbow nerf is really THAT bad).

Now S/D thieves have a chance to rise, but the set is still heavily subpar when compared to D/P and it’s mostly due to OH dagger skills being utterly crap.

And due to trait sinergy being horrible for sword thieves.

It’s not that a simple buff to a skill ( unless it sinergies good with traits, like Shadow arts tree and tactical strike pre-nerf were) suddenly makes the set good, at least with the thief class.

There at aNet should start to understand this.

This is why the S/D + D/P setup works so well….
VS, say an HgH engi, or a bunker ele, S/D is now faceroll for victory. However, vs a build that doesn’t rely on boons it’s a little short, that’s where you simply swap to D/P. Theory-crafting without considering weapon swaps doesn’t portray an accurate picture.

Adaneshade.2409:

Mrbig.8019:

Frenk.5917:

I still use my 0 10 30 30 0 build. I still kill. I know that this is not viable for a burst class, but due to the recent nerfs we can’t play our class like we did before. We have to adapt and change our role in tpvp. We are no longer able to burst someone down in few seconds, not even whit full glass cannon traits and gears.

You don’t suddenly “change” your role in tPvP.

Your role in tPvP is given by what you bring to the table.

The thief offered great burst and good ranged AoE sustained damage ( if not focused).

Now we still have good burst but no longer ranged AoE sustained damage.

Without compensation, there’s no way a thief will eve be useful again in a team ( yes, shortbow nerf is really THAT bad).

Now S/D thieves have a chance to rise, but the set is still heavily subpar when compared to D/P and it’s mostly due to OH dagger skills being utterly crap.

And due to trait sinergy being horrible for sword thieves.

It’s not that a simple buff to a skill ( unless it sinergies good with traits, like Shadow arts tree and tactical strike pre-nerf were) suddenly makes the set good, at least with the thief class.

There at aNet should start to understand this.

This is why the S/D + D/P setup works so well….
VS, say an HgH engi, or a bunker ele, S/D is now faceroll for victory. However, vs a build that doesn’t rely on boons it’s a little short, that’s where you simply swap to D/P. Theory-crafting without considering weapon swaps doesn’t portray an accurate picture.

The point is you need the shortbow to roam and to be somehow useful in teamfights.

SB is TOO IMPORTANT for a thief due to how easy is to travel in z-axis.

It also brings huge AoE damage with cluster bomb and AoE poison ( + weakness) with choking gas, great utility for a class that has little to no access to it.

in theory an S/D -D/P thief is the most complete fighter the thief profession could create, but we need shortbow too bad: nerfing trick shot only hampered the thief, and we were already strugglin.

Mrbig.8019:

The point is you need the shortbow to roam and to be somehow useful in teamfights.

SB is TOO IMPORTANT for a thief due to how easy is to travel in z-axis.

It also brings huge AoE damage with cluster bomb and AoE poison ( + weakness) with choking gas, great utility for a class that has little to no access to it.

in theory an S/D -D/P thief is the most complete fighter the thief profession could create, but we need shortbow too bad: nerfing trick shot only hampered the thief, and we were already strugglin.

Shortbow being so good is only part of the problem. It’s also about pistol/pistol being a thieves worst weapon set.

- One has great mobility while the other is slow.

- One does moderate AoE damage while the other does moderate single target damage.

- One is a weapon where all 5 skills are useful while the other has a worthless #2 skill and a blind field that doesn’t gain much through projectile finishers.

- One weapon can create some nice combo blast finishers. The other has projectile finishers that either aren’t as effective as a blast finisher or only have a 20% chance of happening.

And none of the above is taking into account that the pistol/pistol #3 skill unload is really not that good or that the only good thing going for pistol/pistol is the #4 skill 1/4 second daze.

I imagine A.net will increase the trick shot projectile speed. There is absolutely no reason to keep it as is. If A.net thought trick shot was too strong, they should have just reduced its damage. Keeping it as it currently is doesn’t add any depth to the game or encourage any skillful play; it’s not like you can manually aim your trick shot attacks (well, you can, but the means of doing so is really freaking awkward).

Frellin.6318:

Mrbig.8019:

The point is you need the shortbow to roam and to be somehow useful in teamfights.

SB is TOO IMPORTANT for a thief due to how easy is to travel in z-axis.

It also brings huge AoE damage with cluster bomb and AoE poison ( + weakness) with choking gas, great utility for a class that has little to no access to it.

in theory an S/D -D/P thief is the most complete fighter the thief profession could create, but we need shortbow too bad: nerfing trick shot only hampered the thief, and we were already strugglin.

Shortbow being so good is only part of the problem. It’s also about pistol/pistol being a thieves worst weapon set.

- One has great mobility while the other is slow.

- One does moderate AoE damage while the other does moderate single target damage.

- One is a weapon where all 5 skills are useful while the other has a worthless #2 skill and a blind field that doesn’t gain much through projectile finishers.

- One weapon can create some nice combo blast finishers. The other has projectile finishers that either aren’t as effective as a blast finisher or only have a 20% chance of happening.

And none of the above is taking into account that the pistol/pistol #3 skill unload is really not that good or that the only good thing going for pistol/pistol is the #4 skill 1/4 second daze.

It’s more of a problems with AoEs.

Thief does no AoE damage aside pistol whip ( which does quite bad damage) and shortbow ( a single cluster bomb deals as much damage as a pistol whip) and they add the smart idea to put the most useful thief skill ( inf arrow) on the shortbow and make it a must have weapon.

I really tried to avoid the shortbow, i just can’t: i simply feel useless.

All P/P needs is mobility. However, the P/P set can be quite bursty for a range weapon, so that any added mobility needs to be implemented carefully.

I suggest to add an effect to Body Shot that gives a 600 range shadowstep with target requirement (if you fail to connect, you will still be ported 600’ towards your target. That way you can move between nodes faster, provided somebody on your team marks an opponent, but you still don’t become overly slippery, since the range damage would be too high for that kind of evasion.

P/P pistol main hand period is dumb. As well as D/D. These 3 sets basically revolve around 3 buttons at most out of there 5.
They’re shallow weapon sets and can’t stay in favor unless the 3 buttons they use are simply outrageous.
You can boost the greatness of IA if you want but its something that can be played without but if you don’t take SB you don’t exactly have great options for ranged damage or defense. Since nothing on em compares to distracting shot in defense unless you shadow art trait P/D. P/D’s offensive power is in shadow strike and sneak attack both which are basically melee attacks in application and all the melee seta have good defenses so given you are in that range might as well gtfo. Oddly enough they needed shadow strike warping heavily but IA and His remain spam able for escapes leaving P/D a shadow of its mobility and pushing it further out of the limelight.

You end up ignoring both P/ because they’re disfunctional so you then take either an extra melee or SB
The only exception is if your trying to be senseless with a condi build.

There are significant cons to inf strike being ground target ted to the set itself which would be why not to do it. In terms of escaping it is quite negligible and already situationally available. From Shadow return to inf strike in the distance like you would inf signet or Steal except unlike steal the two infs don’t fail as they out of rangr already. You can do ezpz pokes with inf strike simply because its nature doesn’t need ground tar getting but simply tar getting and at the coat of flexibility it allows phenomenal defense through abuse of terrain that would otherwise hinder you if ground targetted.

p/D, P,/P, D/D all need some considerable work. S/P is a really complete set that needs small tweaks. Everything is useful on S/P and fits with the system.

ensoriki.5789:

P/P pistol main hand period is dumb. As well as D/D. These 3 sets basically revolve around 3 buttons at most out of there 5.
They’re shallow weapon sets and can’t stay in favor unless the 3 buttons they use are simply outrageous.
You can boost the greatness of IA if you want but its something that can be played without but if you don’t take SB you don’t exactly have great options for ranged damage or defense. Since nothing on em compares to distracting shot in defense unless you shadow art trait P/D. P/D’s offensive power is in shadow strike and sneak attack both which are basically melee attacks in application and all the melee seta have good defenses so given you are in that range might as well gtfo. Oddly enough they needed shadow strike warping heavily but IA and His remain spam able for escapes leaving P/D a shadow of its mobility and pushing it further out of the limelight.

You end up ignoring both P/ because they’re disfunctional so you then take either an extra melee or SB
The only exception is if your trying to be senseless with a condi build.

There are significant cons to inf strike being ground target ted to the set itself which would be why not to do it. In terms of escaping it is quite negligible and already situationally available. From Shadow return to inf strike in the distance like you would inf signet or Steal except unlike steal the two infs don’t fail as they out of rangr already. You can do ezpz pokes with inf strike simply because its nature doesn’t need ground tar getting but simply tar getting and at the coat of flexibility it allows phenomenal defense through abuse of terrain that would otherwise hinder you if ground targetted.

p/D, P,/P, D/D all need some considerable work. S/P is a really complete set that needs small tweaks. Everything is useful on S/P and fits with the system.

I would like to point out there are also major issues regarding damage.

D/P damage/utility is superior in every aspect, and i’m talking about sustain.

Sword damage is sub-par and it’s ridicolous how a DAGGER is more damaging than a SWORD ( in fact it does really make little sense): DPS wise the sword should have more sustain, while dagger should have more burst.

Currently D/P has burst, mobility (shadow shot) and sustain, along with utility and CC ( BP, headshot).

I’ve tried S/D with the most damaging build possible ( 15-30-0-25 is the build offering the best trade off, unless you want to go with soldier amulet) and this set DPS is HEAVILY sub-par to dagger ( of course S/P is not in a better position).

I mean, boon stealing is fun and Flanking strike does good damage, but you’re simply prolonging a fight you would end sooner with D/P.

With D/P you can bypass eles boons and simply kill him with a well timed burst, with D/P you can 2 shot an HGH engie without even caring about its 25 stacks of might ( even more now they can’t even heal in mist-form /elixir S) .

S/D is indeed more fun and it’s how the thief was really meant to be ( porting everywhere, stealing stuff etc etc) but there are serious performances/trade off issues with it.

Till they fix these rather obvious issue, D/P will rule supreme.

you’re underplaying Sword damage.
Dagger is very single target heavy vs Sword cleave, and reality is people have to clear away from a sword because they’re all getting smashed and if not Swords damage output shoots past Daggers, very quickly. On a node based mode like this outside of Graveyard, Sword certainly helps to (S/P more than S/D) discourage being on the node and otherwise deals out heavy damage and at the same time does have strong single-target damage itself though like HB it wants to be set-up.

If you look at D/D vs S/P and S/D there’s really not much of note. D/D has single-target damage but again is atm the most shallow set of the three. LDB as a cleave doesn’t even really compare to Sword auto, inf strike gives you more for you buck and cleaves, and PW outclasses it completely and can outclasses Backstab in a couple of situations. Auto wise Sword is comparable and outclasses given cleave opportunities. Single-target wise, FS is only 7% weaker and has always given more util than backstab at the same time doesn’t require stealth.

D/P is overbearing in that it grants stealth without contact requirements conflicting with the point of taking /D anyways. While retaining all benefits of /P, all the main damage skills of D/D. So it gets all the pie and none of the cheese though it could still use benefits in certain areas, the HS+BP combo is toxic.

ensoriki.5789:

you’re underplaying Sword damage.
Dagger is very single target heavy vs Sword cleave, and reality is people have to clear away from a sword because they’re all getting smashed and if not Swords damage output shoots past Daggers, very quickly. On a node based mode like this outside of Graveyard, Sword certainly helps to (S/P more than S/D) discourage being on the node and otherwise deals out heavy damage and at the same time does have strong single-target damage itself though like HB it wants to be set-up.

If you look at D/D vs S/P and S/D there’s really not much of note. D/D has single-target damage but again is atm the most shallow set of the three. LDB as a cleave doesn’t even really compare to Sword auto, inf strike gives you more for you buck and cleaves, and PW outclasses it completely and can outclasses Backstab in a couple of situations. Auto wise Sword is comparable and outclasses given cleave opportunities. Single-target wise, FS is only 7% weaker and has always given more util than backstab at the same time doesn’t require stealth.

D/P is overbearing in that it grants stealth without contact requirements conflicting with the point of taking /D anyways. While retaining all benefits of /P, all the main damage skills of D/D. So it gets all the pie and none of the cheese though it could still use benefits in certain areas, the HS+BP combo is toxic.

in fact i’m accounting the issue about D/P + shortbow > everything else.

Surely Sword has more cleave damage , but when you’re on a point against multiple opponents, Cluster bomb spam > Sword cleave ( of course you should not be focused, but the issue is still there even with sword, unless you’re playing S/P that is pretty much hardcountered by retaliation and can be avoided by simply dodging).

D/P + shortbow covers all situations, and other sets become redundant.

Even more since as a thief your role is to be in small skirmishes and 1vs1, 2vs1 and 2v2.

The point is that you can cover dagger weakness ( single target) with the shortbow, making sword redundant.

Sword should have higher dps by default, but it has not, it’s slow ( lowering dps pressure and giving the opponent more time to react) and easy to dodge.

Moreover, /D skills are underwhelming and underperforming.

Of course i won’t go into details regarding double pistols, since we all know it’s really bad.

The change to flanking strike was nice, but D/ kitten till way superior. Devs said they’re going to buff base damage in next patches, but the problem relies also in traits, since we have no trait benefitting the sword in any way ( that sword trait in beta giving vigor on crits was great, and it’s just a simple example).

That’s why there’re only a couple of optimized builds.