Guild Wars 2

So no real punishing skills should be added into the game?

You should only be hit at most for 2k for being out of position, misusing cooldowns, poor play, etc.

A BS thief is easily dealt with by snaring him. That’s it. Most play with shadowstep, the 25% movement speed signet, and shadow refuge. The thief has no way to close the gap outside of step, and you can just roll away. Returning does little to keep you on the target.

Explain why if a player refues to have defensive stats (vit/tough) and defensive utilities (slows/blinds/stuns/etc), favoring heavy offense instead, they shouldn’t be punished when being pressured. Because that would be imbalanced.

@Daays

Sorry, but 10k+ backstabs have no place in the game. Not in hot join, not in tournaments, not anywhere. You forget that thieves can use stealth, an ability that doesn’t break on damage, lingers for a second after breaking and thieves can bring several to a fight. I’ve been hit by 10k backstabs on 1.6k-1.9k toughness out of nowhere, mostly when I was fighting someone else.

No other class combines mobility and damage in such a devastating way. A single stealth can get you out of any fight. With a shortbow you can get anywhere faster than anyone else and fight only the fights you want to fight. And if things go south you can just roll away with spin-to-win.

Thieves definitely need a damage nerf across the board. Too much stealth/mobility for that burst.

if anything thieves needs a buff not a nerf , u want something nerfed if i were u Qpla search for mesmers and guardians thieves are midiocore at best , stop this blah blah about thief and l2p

UptheIronz.6732:

if anything thieves needs a buff not a nerf , u want something nerfed if i were u Qpla search for mesmers and guardians thieves are midiocore at best , stop this blah blah about thief and l2p

LOL!
Thieves mediocre at best? Are we not playing the same game or are you a troll?

I can 10k evis on my warrior against squishy cloth classes as well.
A rifle+belt burst engineer can combo for 10k. Although it’s multiple abilities, they hit all at the same time. All while you’re knocked down.

Stealth is only good vs classes that need a target in order to do damage. It doesn’t stop the damage. It doesn’t stop the AoE. Stealthing vs a warrior, the warrior will still auto attack chain. I kill thieves all day in stealth. I kite them in stealth. Predicting their movements is pretty easy, and it’s not hard to circle strafe for 3 seconds and keep yourself facing them.

Exiting the fight on the thief means nothing. Think about it, he comes in, you dodge his burst, he stealths out. The class is brought as damage and he’s…not doing damage. So one team is down a high DPS class, while the other team isn’t. Can guarantee your team will win if their thief is only coming in when Steal is off cooldown.

If you don’t want to create a build to deal with stealth, high burst, conditions, stuns, etc. then that’s fine. Make one. But complaining about them, when you have the counters available to you makes you a child.

As I said earlier, the Engineer class has plenty of ways to counter a glass cannon backstab thief. But he doesn’t want to use them. He wants to play a glass cannon engineer. Which is fine, but he better learn to dodge other glass cannon attacks.

Or change his build.

Why the hell is this even stickied? facepalm

Nerf what you want with thiefs, but they’ll just revert to spamming another ability.

Death blossom, daze, whatever. All extremely easy to perform. I feel that their initiative system itself is a big problem here, as well as counterintuitive to the game. It allows them to just pick the best ability and use it many times or do crazy frontloaded burst, instead of juggling cooldowns and performing that crucial ability at just the right time like most of us.

If you just end up nerfing every overpowered ability as they crop up one by one, it’s going to take a looong time of nerfing.

Also i hate Quickness. On anyone.

Daays.4317:

I can 10k evis on my warrior against squishy cloth classes as well.
A rifle+belt burst engineer can combo for 10k. Although it’s multiple abilities, they hit all at the same time. All while you’re knocked down.

Stealth is only good vs classes that need a target in order to do damage. It doesn’t stop the damage. It doesn’t stop the AoE. Stealthing vs a warrior, the warrior will still auto attack chain. I kill thieves all day in stealth. I kite them in stealth. Predicting their movements is pretty easy, and it’s not hard to circle strafe for 3 seconds and keep yourself facing them.

Exiting the fight on the thief means nothing. Think about it, he comes in, you dodge his burst, he stealths out. The class is brought as damage and he’s…not doing damage. So one team is down a high DPS class, while the other team isn’t. Can guarantee your team will win if their thief is only coming in when Steal is off cooldown.

If you don’t want to create a build to deal with stealth, high burst, conditions, stuns, etc. then that’s fine. Make one. But complaining about them, when you have the counters available to you makes you a child.

As I said earlier, the Engineer class has plenty of ways to counter a glass cannon backstab thief. But he doesn’t want to use them. He wants to play a glass cannon engineer. Which is fine, but he better learn to dodge other glass cannon attacks.

Or change his build.

Eviscerate is not out of stealth, nor can it be hit so often. I remember Anet going on about how thieves would be different in GW2, how they would not have the same bad mechnaics that make them an issue in so many MMOs, yet all they have done is remove permastealth, you still have the same old failure that is stealth>huge burst>escape on your terms that plagues other MMOs.

As for exiting means nothing, rubbish, what happens is this, thief goes in opponent dodges/burns stun breaker/burns shield etc, thief disappears, comes back moments later opponents stunbreaker, etc all still on cooldown = opponent in big trouble despite having built to include stunbreaker.

Same goes for team fights, it is all very well saying have a stun breaker or teleport (whatever to deal with CC) or to dodge, but they all get used up in team fights and yes in this case it does apply to a couple of other classes who can also do silly damage with certain skills, because it makes the TTK too low which is simply cheese and equals a low skill cap (in an MMORPG).

Which then makes me wonder about CC, I assume the point of the relatviely low duration CC in GW2 is to avoid the situation of people feeling there is nothing they can do for seconds at a time(if their CC breaker(s) is on cooldown), but then if a class can do so much damage in 2 sec (haste is also a dumb cheese skill) then it sort of defeats the purpose and how the dumb Moa Morph fits in to that, I don’ tknow…

On the last point of others going glass cannon, yes they better learn to dodge, but the difference is I can leave combat pretty much when I want on my thief, which I can’t on my engineer, which results in there being far less of a penalty for going glass cannon on thief tthan on most other classes.

The problem might be daggers and sword + pistol since my dual pistol/ short bow thief has crappy dps and struggles against the average player.

I don’t understand how people haven’t figured out that all they need to do is start dodging as soon as the thief enters stealth. There’s very little you can do to catch up to someone before you run out of time without breaking stealth as a thief.

Dariya.9380:

Why the hell is this even stickied? facepalm

Why ? because thieves are OP, and they have absolutly no clue on how to balance PVP, so they sticky a random post and wait for good ideas. They’ll do the same with guardian and mesmer next.

Try using a black powder shoot next time another thief goes invisible then stand in the center of the smoke field.

Hilarity ensues as you see miss miss miss scrolling all over your screen.

just give every class a 5k+ damage spammable attack that is a gap closer if you are melee or gap creator if you are ranged and all will be equal.

for example make necro fear in death shroud do 5k damage with a 5 sec cd

Sprawl.3891:

just give every class a 5k+ damage spammable attack that is a gap closer if you are melee or gap creator if you are ranged and all will be equal.

for example make necro fear in death shroud do 5k damage with a 5 sec cd

necro lich form does 4k each autoattack

lich form is an elite with long CD and no gap creation or closure. how is that comparable to hs spam?

1200 range lich form.
hs spam is only for noobs who think spamming make you wun.
you can always try to go play tourney with thief and see hw easy is winning with hs spam.
it has no control on opponent.
“spamming” = no good player.

@Sylosi

I can evis every 10 seconds on my warrior if not being heavily focus fired and forced to play defensive. Also, that evis hits that hard on all squishy classes. DPS ele’s, DPS mesmers, DPS thieves, etc. A thief can only achieve a 10k backstab from the Assassin’s Signet, which is on a 45 second cooldown. Otherwise, he’s going to be hitting for 6k crits on the same type of targets.

As I said, the thief is the damage. If he is not doing damage for 10 seconds, that’s huge for your team. Especially if the thief wasted Steal as the opener, as now he won’t have an instant gap closer for 40 seconds. Meaning he has to walk into the fight and the other team can see the thief coming and has time to react.

There’s lots you can do with stealth, but exiting a team fight mid after you botched the opener isn’t really its biggest strength. It’s dropping the “Target” symbol above your head. It’s doding abilities that require a target. It’s reseting NPC’s in Foefire and allows any thief to easily kill the other team’s Lord.

Really the only thing left being too strong with Thief is Heartseeker. It needs a new animation and the gap closer removed. It’s way to strong, considering it’s also considered a “leap” and you can gain all sorts of amazing abilities. Like Chaos Armor.

And I don’t know what you’re talking about. Engineer’s can leave a fight any time they want. Rifle knockback, immob, medkit, swiftness away. Unless you’re talking about existing a 1v3. You need to be a condition tank spec with bomb/grenade kits for that.

brb rerolling from my thief since it seems ppl will QQ untill they dont hav high burst and cant do kitten anymore bcz some ppl havent even tried sPvP for 1 week and the game has barely begun and 10k dps aint out if it’s place if u dodge it just 1 time the thief is kitten this is just another L2P

The fact that the person who moderates this forum made a sticky to bash thieves instead of knowing that there is already a thief discussion forum tells me they are going to nerf thief. I hope they nerf warriors and mesmers while they are at it.

if they nerf thieves ( some builds indeed need to be toned down) and don’t nerf mesmers and guardians, i can say i’ve totally lost faith in this game to be balanced properly.

Mark these words.

i am playing again mesmer since to win a tourney is less stressing playing mesmer than playing thief, well, also less entertaining but who cares, i need wins to have fun.

Why are people so bad and whining about buffs and nerfs already? -3-
Thieves are perfect and do there job. Quick clean kills. Honestly just buff the other classes so they do there job as well as a Thief can. And even then it STILL relies on skill.

Also dunno why people whine about 10K. I been hit for that amount and higher by every other class =L You peeps just need to L2P.

Just give them time. They will adjust what needs adjusting. They just need more data from live so they can make good balance fixes and not some bandaid stuff that end up breaking something else.

Enjoy your free kills while they last

@Ansatsu, show me a necro or ranger critting you for 10k

So you think thief is OP and you get easy kills? Roll one and try for your own. And I don’t mean killing newbies – play tournaments against decent teams.

You might be surprised how often you get killed or have to run away. Just try it and don’t troll here before you didn’t experience it on your own.

I don’t see how anyone can defend the current state of Thieves for two reasons:

1. It’s not enjoyable for the person getting crit for an absurd amount.

2. It’s not enjoyable for the Thief to be extremely susceptible to death the second he pops out.

The problem with building a class around so much burst damage is it creates serious balance problems for both sides. No one wants to be two-shot, yet the Thief is both two-shotting and getting two-shotted due to his glass cannon status.

It’s simply not a good idea to have one class capable of killing people in the blink of an eye.

In theory, it may be okay from a balance perspective. But from a fun perspective, it’s not a good approach.

My suggestion is to buff up Thief’s base survivability and severely nerf the burst damage — particularly the burst capability of Assassin’s Signet. Otherwise, tournaments will continue involving way too many Thieves.

the sheer volume of kitten in this thread is staggering.
the age old rule of any pvp rpg is that lower TTK is bad for the health of the game.

all you thief players keep up the kitten also tried in spvp and tpvp, thief is by far the easiest class to play, you can faceroll and win most encounters using just stealth and backstab.

also check my post history, ive said that warrior/thief/guard/mesmer (warrior/thief burst)should all be toned down.

I play thief and I honestly wouldn’t care if A-net did a complete redesign and turned us into a melee version of a necro without pets even, as long as they gave us a little more tanky and twice as much mobility as an air specced ele. But thief in its current state, however a bit off from what A-net advertised they were going to be, is NOT overpowered.

On a more serious note. @ Labotimy:
By your opinion, if 4/8 of the classes are overpowered, in turn someone with the same philosophy could argue that the other 4 are just underpowered and the 4 you mentioned are on a balanced level and would still hold equal weight without hypocrisy in their statement. So seeing as that is equal terms, your argument holds little weight in evidence.

Well, I will ask it too:

Why is this thread stickied??? Didn´t u all learn that ppl will complain till death until their professions own anything and everything the way they want to play?

Unfortunatelly, this is balance for most ppl. Too much qq is freakin normal in any pvp forum game. It will be forever. There is always something to cry moar

Quindim.3980:

Well, I will ask it too:

Why is this thread stickied??? Didn´t u all learn that ppl will complain till death until their professions own anything and everything the way they want to play?

Unfortunatelly, this is balance for most ppl. Too much qq is freakin normal in any pvp forum game. It will be forever. There is always something to cry moar

I think it’s evident there is issues with the theives damage in pvp, this was stickies to keep the topic concentrated in one spot (although there will be plenty other threads still)

Base toughness on any class is actually very low and direct damage scales exponentially (not linearly) based on how much toughness you have. So a little toughness >>> no toughness at all.

This is not to mention they appear to be glass cannon spec’ed. If your having trouble with backstab in particular, try strafing in a circle and rolling ~1.5-2.5 sec after a thief stealthes. This almost completely dodges the backstab itself (or at least mess up a thief’s position behind you before the stab goes off).

Cal.1985:

Please excuse my confusion but how steal + backstab + heart seeker are 2 skills?

Why on earth are you not moving/dodgin after the dmg and seeing the thief going invisible?! It is even worse if the thief uses CnD (IT HAS CAST TIME). The thief has a maximum of 4 seconds during which he can land backstab. Get a way, use blind, use knockdown use anything to prevent the thief doing dmg on your back in the for 3-4 seconds. If you manage to get away:

Steal is on at least 30 (or more? not sure with 30 in thrickery) CD or the thief lost 6 initiate due to CnD.

This build is a one trick pony. It is easy aviodable in 1v1. In group fights well its harder but still doable.

People learned to avoid bull rush + hundred blades WHY on earth you can`t learn to MOVE when you see a thief wearing a dagger in MH getting invis close to you?!

Because many times i dont see him getting invis. Actually you can be happy when you see him at all.

This does not deserve a sticky.

Being able to attack while invisible is a big fat no. Also the quickness coupled with the high dps and ability to close gaps and jump about like crazy is also a big fat no. Everything else is discussable

People who play thief ONLY: why is this stickied? Thief is fine!

muha almost lvl 80 with my new warrior… srsly nerf thiefs and they become useless it’s only some few buffs to other classes then they can match thiefs.
But at the same time thiefs with 10k crits = deadmeat if they fail just for 1 second.
Also try getting to Rank 10 with 1 class before QQ like kitten, i am doing fine as warrior atm having 0 problems killing thiefs and i can do the same with any other class.
I just need time to adjust myself on how to play the class…..

L2P srsly -Regards Devolutionz

Devolution.5716:

muha almost lvl 80 with my new warrior… srsly nerf thiefs and they become useless it’s only some few buffs to other classes then they can match thiefs.
But at the same time thiefs with 10k crits = deadmeat if they fail just for 1 second.
Also try getting to Rank 10 with 1 class before QQ like kitten, i am doing fine as warrior atm having 0 problems killing thiefs and i can do the same with any other class.
I just need time to adjust myself on how to play the class…..

L2P srsly -Regards Devolutionz

So, you are saying that you have no problem dealing with Thieves with your Warrior?
Wow, who expected that? The easymode profession has no problems with an easymode profession!

Now, make an Elementalist/Necromancer, than go in sPvP. Tell me if you have no problems dealing with Thieves.

Ellajid.9504:

Being able to attack while invisible is a big fat no. Also the quickness coupled with the high dps and ability to close gaps and jump about like crazy is also a big fat no. Everything else is discussable

You have a point on quickness, which I think needs to be looked at for all classes, but attacking from stealth and high mobility are the key components of what makes a thief, a thief. Being controlled is a thief’s worst nightmare – most who have a problem with thieves build themselves glass cannon, and are surprised when they get taken down quickly.

If classes like Elementalists and Necromancers have problems, which I know they do, shouldn’t the concern be placed on making those classes more appealing, and not on sucking the fun out of every other class?

Miflett.3472:

Ellajid.9504:

Being able to attack while invisible is a big fat no. Also the quickness coupled with the high dps and ability to close gaps and jump about like crazy is also a big fat no. Everything else is discussable

You have a point on quickness, which I think needs to be looked at for all classes, but attacking from stealth and high mobility are the key components of what makes a thief, a thief. Being controlled is a thief’s worst nightmare – most who have a problem with thieves build themselves glass cannon, and are surprised when they get 3 shot.

Quickness needs to go. Period. No discussion, just get rid of it. I play a Warrior extensively and I’ll tell you that its just OP.

The issue with stealth is currently that Thieves are gaining the benefit of a broken mechanic that makes players ‘invisible’ when there are lots of them on screen.

I constantly get struck and shot at by thieves who are still invisible. The moment I get on top of them, they appear. There aren’t tons of people around, there aren’t lots of effects going off, usually its just me and him.

Its just broken…hopefully it gets fixed in their ‘big patch’ … whenever that is.

Also, you guys gotta remember, there are a LOT of cheaters out there.
Hacks I’ve seen so far:

• Blink/Teleport constantly (This was a Warrior btw, they don’t get those)
• Forced un-targeting of enemy
• Unable to finish target while down
• Latency abuse to force ‘missing’

I’d suggest to Anet that we be allowed to see player’s names in WvW so as to report hacks properly.

Hilarious. I play guardian and necro. i can’t even remember the last time i died to a class using quickness. hb pistolwhip or otherwise.

frenzy hb is one of those abilities that should only work once – once you know that’s their build the remainder of the match is easy.

haste pistol whip is the same – stealth or no, you can treat this and hs spammers the same, if your build is losing to these types of playstyles at this point in the game, it’s no longer the game’s fault, its yours.

the best part is exploiting the 50% damage vulnerability during frenzy and the lack of an evade during haste. either you do 1.5x damage for 4 seconds or all of your moves are an almost guaranteed hit (respectively).

quickness adds a nice option to these classes and is an interesting move for those who choose to use it. personally i avoid all forms of these ‘bursty’ builds but to each his own. i think that without these types of surprise “-oh shi” builds the game would be that much more boring.

Thieves and Mesmers, Mesmers and Thieves: The Game.

sorrow.2364:

Devolution.5716:

muha almost lvl 80 with my new warrior… srsly nerf thiefs and they become useless it’s only some few buffs to other classes then they can match thiefs.
But at the same time thiefs with 10k crits = deadmeat if they fail just for 1 second.
Also try getting to Rank 10 with 1 class before QQ like kitten, i am doing fine as warrior atm having 0 problems killing thiefs and i can do the same with any other class.
I just need time to adjust myself on how to play the class…..

L2P srsly -Regards Devolutionz

So, you are saying that you have no problem dealing with Thieves with your Warrior?
Wow, who expected that? The easymode profession has no problems with an easymode profession!

Now, make an Elementalist/Necromancer, than go in sPvP. Tell me if you have no problems dealing with Thieves.

I play an ele in spvp and have no problem with thieves. If anything with all my AOE damage is more of a bane to them then most classes.
Key hint: When taking over/defending a node, do NOT stand still with an extremity up the proverbial rectum

Vigil.3408

Thieves and Mesmers, Mesmers and Thieves: The Game.

That’s definitely what I am seeing the last few days and pretty much sums up the direction we are heading.

Thieves are the most OP class in the game BY FAR. There is no way around it.

Tell me, I spotted a thief, before he even made a move to attack me, I put two hits on him. Within less than 2 seconds, I was downed. I went from 22k + Hp to 0 HP in less than 2 seconds. Not to mention, I didn’t see him at ALL during those two seconds. That stealth bullkitten needs to be nerfed. I’m sorry, but once they attack, they shouldn’t be able to go back into stealth for a while.

Here is another, Somehow I went from that 22k+ HP to 1k in less than 3 seconds, he was stealthed, hit me MULTIPLE TIMES with even my AoEs hitting him so he didn’t come out of stealth. But then he also but MANY conditions on me. That’s bullkitten if they are able to do HIGH damage output and Condition damage at the same time. I’ve been saying it Since BWE 1, Thieves are OPed.

I also don’t think they should be able to be in stealth mode when “finishing” a player. How is a downed character supposed to use any of their ablities while downed if they can’t target the thief because he is stealthed? You can’t, therefore again, OPed.

All I want for christmas is

1. Assassin Signet go bye-bye. It’s the source of much of the whine about backstab builds, and the class can honestly live without it.

2. Shortbow becomes a reasonable weapon instead of this godlike THING that is a mandatory weapon for all thief builds.

@Cal: You can steal during C&D’s cast animation. This basically means that your one and only warning of a surprise thief attack is that lone damage event just before the backstab lands. (And if the thief is on top of their game, the window you have to react in is infintesimally small because activating signet turns autoattack on)

Sure, if you see them coming, you can dodge as the steal is incoming, but that’s not a case of you being good, THAT’S A CASE OF THE THIEF BEING BAD AND TOO DIRECT.

Chrysalis.5983:

All I want for christmas is

1. Assassin Signet go bye-bye. It’s the source of much of the whine about backstab builds, and the class can honestly live without it.

2. Shortbow becomes a reasonable weapon instead of this godlike THING that is a mandatory weapon for all thief builds.

@Cal: You can steal during C&D’s cast animation. This basically means that your one and only warning of a surprise thief attack is that lone damage event just before the backstab lands. (And if the thief is on top of their game, the window you have to react in is infintesimally small because activating signet turns autoattack on)

Sure, if you see them coming, you can dodge as the steal is incoming, but that’s not a case of you being good, THAT’S A CASE OF THE THIEF BEING BAD AND TOO DIRECT.

Only reason SB is considered mandatory is because all the other ranged sets are lackluster. Also because of Infiltrators arrow.
Unfortunately even though A-net advertised thief as the most mobile class, we are actually surpassed by a couple, including ele. There are a few classes, where to keep the same pace as them and ability to enter/exit combat like we are supposed to we have to dumb a lot of initiative by spamming Infiltrators arrow or heartseeker, whilst some of the other classes can just pop a weapon ability that gives swiftness and another that causes a burst of movement (like a Warrior with GS+X/Warhorn)
These weapon abilities are also on very short cooldowns.
2 weapon abilities on cooldown > Unable to fight because of drained initiative.

The only way to solve the shortbow dependency (without screwing them in wvwvw) is to buff things like Pistol+Pistol, (or give us a 1200 range weapon, thief is the only class without one). Changing Infiltrators arrow to something that doesnt teleport/grant mobility, means they have to give us some actual movement boosting talents like ele has in Air (was surprising the advertised mobility class is lacking in these).

The stealth issue is a problem with the game engine. Considering Tournament teams consisting of mostly thieves actually fail against a mix, and are pigeon-holed to begin with build wise, don’t be surprised if the stealth fix actually makes them underpowered (there is a chance you never know).

I wouldnt mind Assassins signet and quickness for every class getting toned down either, wouldn’t really effect me, and smart players don’t build entirely around 1 ability, or 1 signet like some of these thieves are doing (IE Backstab/ Haste/Assassins signet)

At the same time I want some QoL changes to the sword set. The attack speed without quickness up is far too slow for a mobility class (needs to be faster but still slower then daggers). Also it takes a lot of illegal drugs to stick a self root on an ability (PW) for a class built around mobility. That needs to go, even if damage is reduced and stun is removed, and speed increased

Easy fix for Shortbow:

• Infiltrator’s Arrow now requires a target to be used

End of story.

lol at thief shortbow need a nerf because every thief use it..maybe because it gives us mobility and survivability?
so nerf every staff for mesmer because evey mesmer has a staff. nerf every shield because every warrior has one. . .
these are not suggestions, these are people who want to destroy a class. it is sad.

So warriors hitting 10k on a 10s cooldown by pressing one button is ok, but thieves potentially hitting 10k IF they can get behind someone properly in a 3 second window and pop 1-2 40+ second cooldowns is not okay, and deserves 4 pages of kittening.

wow this has become a whine fest not a “lets make thief balanced and keep in mind that they should be able to kill a class after the nerf but still not do 21k dmg or some crap”

this thread needs to be closed before anet thinks about destroying a class

(playing warrior but this is just to much QQ over 1 class been a little to OP)