Guild Wars 2

Every good player will somewhat know how strong sword dagger thiefs and even sword pistol thiefs are. Just sword in itself is so strong. The ability to use any skill on your weapon when ever you want is already broken in my eyes but that’s not what this threads about. I honestly would like to see a redo on this weapon. I’m all for thief having moblity, but it mainly should be used as a defensive ability. Shortbow is a perfect example of what evade and blink skills should be like. Disabling shot does little damage, cripples an opponent for 2 seconds and makes you evade. Infiltrator arrow is purely a blink that causes a blind where you land, it also costs 6 Initiative compared to 3 on infiltrator’s strike.

I know they have been working on these things. Cause they are nerfing vigor traits on certain classes. But indirectly they are buffing skills such as Flanking strike and Pistol whip. Every class will have less evades except for thiefs. It’s stupid that I blow every cooldown on a thief while they are mindlessly spamming evades and when I finally run out of cooldowns they can chase me whenever they want. Even after I used ride the lightning as a disengage.

Also now that I’m on the subject of thiefs, whenever a thief uses a stealth skill such as backstab they should be revealed when dodged, blocked or invul’d. It’s the same with basilisk venom, I’d like to see them get punished for mistakes.

I’m not asking for much Anet, but please try to look more into balance what is too strong and whats not.

I’m only rank38 and haven’t played thief too much, but I’ve noticed too that instead of “high risk, high reward” popular thief builds produce spammy “evade uptime” gameplay.
This and GW2 uncounterable stealth mechanic (thing that just shocked me when I started to play) makes me feel really bad about this version of “rogue” class.

Arcturus.8109:

I’m only rank38 and haven’t played thief too much, but I’ve noticed too that instead of “high risk, high reward” popular thief builds produce spammy “evade uptime” gameplay.
This and GW2 uncounterable stealth mechanic (thing that just shocked me when I started to play) makes me feel really bad about this version of “rogue” class.

Thieves don’t have any other options really, since their “high-risk high-reward” builds (Backstab + Pistol Whip) have already been nerfed heavily =\

i’m sorry but you’re totally wrong.

Disabling shot is the perfect example of what an evade SHOULDN’T be.

An evade with no aftercast, spammable multiple times, granting total invulnerability.

Pistol whip and Flanking strike are perfectly fine ( if nothing, pistol whip evade acts oddly and should be fixed).

Flanking strike has no aftercast but chains into a slow move ( larcenous) which a pretty long aftercast, so you can punish the thief not only during larcenous strike casting but also on the aftercast.

Pistol whip doesn’t evade persistent AoE fields ( and should be fixed) and the last 0.25 secs of the animation won’t evade ( and it should be fixed), along with a quite obvious cast on pistol whip and a good aftercast after the flurry ( so you can attack in that frame time, along with bugged evasion on the last 1/4 of secs of the animation).

Get your kitten properly before posting.

No class should be able to simultaneously attack while evading (invulnerable) incoming damage.

Mrbig.8019:

Flanking strike has no aftercast

Flanking Strike has a pretty noticeable aftercast.

Jayce.5632:

No class should be able to simultaneously attack while evading (invulnerable) incoming damage.

This is such a big problem with the game. Between thieves with sword builds, AI condi builds, warriors with healing signet and multiple immunities, and the other various invincibility attacks, there are far too many ways for people to do damage without answer. That is just bad design. It removes the counterplay from the fight.

What is anet doing about it? Adding evade frames to burning speed. So much incompetence.

Agreed, though evades might be more prioritized above backstab on the list of nerfs.

A full rework is not needed. Decrease the damage. Evades can surely be fun and good for a defensive purpose, if you can use it efficiently. Though it’s when combined with the current amount of damage that this becomes too strong.

If people want to mindlessly spam dodges and have endless sustain, let them do that, but please do not give them the ability to pressure targets like a actual glass DPS would do.

If you just watched the tournament Good Fights Invitational you’d see how thiefs are completely broken right now. They simply made the whole tournament by nuking players while evading… while having insane mobility.

Jayce.5632:

No class should be able to simultaneously attack while evading (invulnerable) incoming damage.

Why not? Blurred Frenzy or great sword whirl are hardly overpowered or problematic skills.

Jayce.5632:

No class should be able to simultaneously attack while evading (invulnerable) incoming damage.

That’s silly, every class is able to do this.

Elementalist – Obsidian Flesh, Blinds, Magnetic Aura (projectile immunity), Swirling Winds (projectile immunity), Burning Speed (next skill update), Arcane Shield

Guardian – Aegis, Shield of Wrath, Blinds, Sanctuary (projectile immunity), Wall of Reflection (projectile immunity)

Necromancer – Death Shroud, Fears, Blinds

Thief – Pistol Whip, Flanking Strike, Blackpowder, Blinds

Engineer – CC spam, Blinds

Ranger – Power Stab, Serpent’s Strike, Whirling Defense (projectile immunity), Stalker’s Strike, “Protect Me!”

Mesmer – Blurred Frenzy, Distortion

Any profession – Stealth/Invulnerability + Applied conditions

saVdoom.2067:

If you just watched the tournament Good Fights Invitational you’d see how thiefs are completely broken right now. They simply made the whole tournament by nuking players while evading… while having insane mobility.

Insane mobility? Ha, yeah right. What a joke.

If you still can’t counter PW, then, sorry, but L2P. It’s such a gimmicky weapon set, and the 10/30/0/0/30 build is so glassy that it’ll usually burn extremely quickly anyways (just look at how much damage Toker was doing, it’s pretty obvious that if the other teams had put in just a little more effort to at least try and kill him that he would’ve just melted). Just play actively against active play, otherwise you’re going to lose 100% of the time. S/X thieves basically define active play, and if you’re going to play defensively or passively against them, they’re simply going to go right through you.

This isn’t a problem with thieves, it’s a problem with your play style.

Did you dare Arganthium to say L2P ?
A sorry excuse of the Theorycrafters

15 months ago i told you to use the current traits that offers increasef initiative regen (that s/d current use) and equip any weapon that offers Evades , and you and Travale told me that <<not a single high ranked player dont use it and evades moves are worthless >>
And you come here today to argue with the community , while you argued a while ago with Helseth that evades are about skill cap a moves ?

Dont force me to name other things you have told ! Like :
<<If they nerf mug , the classs will be worthless>>
<<if they nerf quickness the class will be worthless>>
<<If they nerd S/d the class willbe worthless>>

Use yor brain as a Theorycrafter , (and some other ppl) or i will Prybar you to the forums !!!

This games allows to many lame play styles but sadly those are usually the most viable. And so often some moves/spells look like bug but working as intended. I also agree the thief needs tone down on that area, but i also agree it needs buff somewhere else. Dont forget also that larcenous strike can hit you trough block (boon stealing), my engineer already lost 20% hp while blocking from 1 strike.

Shockwave.1230:

That’s silly, every class is able to do this.

It is like saying that some class in condi spec is fine. Because look, everyone can do this! Especially ele, look how he can stack bleeding and apply burning!

This thread is pointless in describing special cases because there will always be angry defenders that will turn thread into walls of demagogy and hilarious vacuum math like that in healing signet threads. Unlike wars they maybe have a reason to do this, fixing this thief’s playstyle by simple nerfs will quite likely turn class into dust (somewhere just near eles).
But I hope that anet will somehow gather feedback and eventually *re*balance thief to produce more sane and interesting gameplay.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Did you dare Arganthium to say L2P ?
A sorry excuse of the Theorycrafters

15 months ago i told you to use the current traits that offers increasef initiative regen (that s/d current use) and equip any weapon that offers Evades , and you and Travale told me that <<not a single high ranked player dont use it and evades moves are worthless >>
And you come here today to argue with the community , while you argued a while ago with Helseth that evades are about skill cap a moves ?

Dont force me to name other things you have told ! Like :
<<If they nerf mug , the classs will be worthless>>
<<if they nerf quickness the class will be worthless>>
<<If they nerd S/d the class willbe worthless>>

Use yor brain as a Theorycrafter , (and some other ppl) or i will Prybar you to the forums !!!

What? I didn’t even say any of that nonsense anyways, and even if I did, that has no relevance to this post here, especially given that quite a lot has changed after 15 months…

I did argue with Helseth, but I have no idea what point you’re trying to make, or, for that matter, what you’re even saying.

These cry threads are really sad. Balance will never be perfect, but it’s not that bad. If you’re having big issues it means you’re not playing well enough. Now that you know where the real issue is, go fix it dude!

Simple words:

You and the rest of the ape monkey on the forums . stop the moronic class favoritism on the kittening forums , because thats the case that lead us in this sorry state
(<<buff every1 else rather than nerf mine so we see something new in the meta >>)
and then spit on the face the kittening old geezers .

The only classs that needed some skills in the past , was the Elementalist 2 sec TKK (before the Fresh Air trait) ,.that forced you to press 7-8 bottuns
It was the only kittening spec that only a handful of ppl played them . So every1 stop the kittening class favoritism and the silly idea that your class need high APM

(if your are gonna ban me for a week , leave these 2 post for the next 8 hours pretty plz )

I would like to see sword #2 changed completely. It is just not fun to fight against. I’d remove the teleport, keep the immobilize, add a cripple, and transfer one condition to an enemy.

FS and PW are fine.

Well, if ANet decides to take this thread seriously I can say goodbye to my no-stealth S/P thief. Maybe I’ll switch to PU Mes just to kitten people off more.

style.6173:

I would like to see sword #2 changed completely. It is just not fun to fight against. I’d remove the teleport, keep the immobilize, add a cripple, and transfer one condition to an enemy.

FS and PW are fine.

How would you compensate for the lack of survivability you’d create?

@Axel, can’t +1 this enough.

dreztina.4820:

Jayce.5632:

No class should be able to simultaneously attack while evading (invulnerable) incoming damage.

This is such a big problem with the game. Between thieves with sword builds, AI condi builds, warriors with healing signet and multiple immunities, and the other various invincibility attacks, there are far too many ways for people to do damage without answer. That is just bad design. It removes the counterplay from the fight.

What is anet doing about it? Adding evade frames to burning speed. So much incompetence.

I’m like 90% sure that all of the class design in this game is just them sitting around a table going “you know what would be AWESOME?” followed by something like “backflipping ninja evades!” or “invisible teleporting mages!” without actually giving any thought to if that would be fun, balanced, or interesting to fight against.

“Every class will have less evades except for thiefs. It’s stupid that I blow every cooldown on a thief while they are mindlessly spamming evades and when I finally run out of cooldowns they can chase me whenever they want.”

Haha. So, correct me if I’m wrong, you were punished for spamming your skills without paying any attention to what your opponent was doing? Much like you would be punished if you spammed your skills on an ele using obsidian flesh, or a guardian using shelter, or a warrior using shield stance?

If Invulns/immunities/evades cause people to pay attention the timing of their skills rather than “blowing every cooldown” as if this is skilled gameplay then I hope they remain as they are.

Yes thieves can build for high evasion uptime but 100% evasion uptime doesn’t exist in this game. Infiltrator’s strike is limited by requiring a target to teleport, compared to infiltrators arrow which doesn’t need a target, hence the initiative cost difference. Flanking strike is not only low damage, it’s massively telegraphed, there’s a tooltip that appears for the duration that LS is available to use, and it is affected by aftercast, like every sword ability.

S/P trickery build does have a potentially very high burst that is instant, can be done at 900 range and can interrupt, but the build has not only zero defensive stats, it also wastes 300 stat points in a condition damage trait line when the melee set has no condition damage attacks.

And since when was stealth still being complained about in PvP forums? Especially on thieves?

Mrbig.8019:

( if nothing, pistol whip evade acts oddly and should be fixed).

…eviscerate says “Hello”… xD

Jakare.6807:

“Every class will have less evades except for thiefs. It’s stupid that I blow every cooldown on a thief while they are mindlessly spamming evades and when I finally run out of cooldowns they can chase me whenever they want.”

Haha. So, correct me if I’m wrong, you were punished for spamming your skills without paying any attention to what your opponent was doing? Much like you would be punished if you spammed your skills on an ele using obsidian flesh, or a guardian using shelter, or a warrior using shield stance?

If Invulns/immunities/evades cause people to pay attention the timing of their skills rather than “blowing every cooldown” as if this is skilled gameplay then I hope they remain as they are.

Yes thieves can build for high evasion uptime but 100% evasion uptime doesn’t exist in this game. Infiltrator’s strike is limited by requiring a target to teleport, compared to infiltrators arrow which doesn’t need a target, hence the initiative cost difference. Flanking strike is not only low damage, it’s massively telegraphed, there’s a tooltip that appears for the duration that LS is available to use, and it is affected by aftercast, like every sword ability.

S/P trickery build does have a potentially very high burst that is instant, can be done at 900 range and can interrupt, but the build has not only zero defensive stats, it also wastes 300 stat points in a condition damage trait line when the melee set has no condition damage attacks.

And since when was stealth still being complained about in PvP forums? Especially on thieves?

ahem

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAsaVlYmCOncS6E/5Ex2DfKUe69gsj1saFoJA-TsAA1CoIKSVkrITRyisFNsY9xkAA

Anyone who runs berserker with S/P while already 30 into CS is a kitten. The damage difference is minimal and the defensive bonus you gain from running Soldier’s with a Barbarian jewel is too great to even consider saying that full zerk is the “only way to go” with thieves in sPvP.

I don’t mind evade on damage skills when they are under decent cooldowns and have some other drawbacks in compensation. Blurred Frenzy is under a 12 second cooldown, does not allows the mesmer to move, nor does it deal enough damage by itself, so mesmers have to build a specific sequence to disable the opponent’s movement, and need additional damage sources to burst. The future version of the elementalist’s burning speed will also get evade, but it’s under 20 seconds cooldown and with a very strict movement effect on one of the squishiest weapons of the squishiest profession in this game.

The problem with thieves evades is how kitten long they last, because they have no cooldowns (or becayse they really do last long), while still dealing high damage, while being really hard to counter.

You can’t compare mesmer to thief. Mesmers have pets to deal dmg even if they are hiding, they have invul and other toys. Thieves don’t do any dmg if they are hiding or sitting in stealth+ you are losing cap too.

Don’t get me wrong, i hate evade thieves and laugh my kitten off when i manage to dodge inf. strike and watch them waste 3333333. However as long as the class doesn’t have any other means of survival besides stealth and evades, i don’t think those should be nerfed.

As some of the other posters here have said, other than stealth thieves only have evade for defense. Evading damage typically takes more skill than buffing yourself to absorb/negate/reflect damage because you have to actively hit the evade button at the right moment. There are some builds (s/x) that give thieves the ability to evade a lot more than others. It just takes timing and knowing when they are evading.

Evade mechanic on thiefs is already balanced, as Long as there are not other utilies to avoid dmg,
the little amount of thiefs who use s/d 3333 to think to be “more effective” can be easily focused, because there are so many aftercasts that makes his “permavade” holey like a cheese

Shockwave.1230:

style.6173:

I would like to see sword #2 changed completely. It is just not fun to fight against. I’d remove the teleport, keep the immobilize, add a cripple, and transfer one condition to an enemy.

FS and PW are fine.

How would you compensate for the lack of survivability you’d create?

You’d be gaining survivability through the condition transfer. Imagine that every time you press 2, you pass a condition that you have back to the target. An example, a necro hits you with 8 stacks of bleeds. You press 2 and the stacks are put back on the necro. Not only are you protecting yourself, but you are adding a lot of damage back onto the target. Especially with a sword mainhand that hits multiple targets, you are doing big damage.

Of course you are more vulnerable to direct damage, but I think the condi protection makes up for it.

Arkantos.7460:

Evade mechanic on thiefs is already balanced, as Long as there are not other utilies to avoid dmg,
the little amount of thiefs who use s/d 3333 to think to be “more effective” can be easily focused, because there are so many aftercasts that makes his “permavade” holey like a cheese

that kitten talk about aftercast gets old.. just a hint u can interrupt the aftercast.. go and watch seizer playing this noob build and evading 24/7 while doing enoug dmg.. or ask jumper to clarify about that.

i have nothing against evades.. but in my opinion 0.75 skillcoeefficient on a “spammable” evadeskill is just to much. either its a opener/util for larcenous strike or its a attackskill. both is just to much regarding no cooldown thx to iniative.

the same goes for pistolwhip. it doesnt need an evade.. either i have my target in front of me and stunned or not. pistolwhip is not for standing in the crowd to spam “safely” dmg skills.

and to clarify.. 0.75 is 0.05 less than the first 2 autoattack skills.. the gap is to close for that much survivability and utility.

Luto.1938:

As some of the other posters here have said, other than stealth thieves only have evade for defense. Evading damage typically takes more skill than buffing yourself to absorb/negate/reflect damage because you have to actively hit the evade button at the right moment. There are some builds (s/x) that give thieves the ability to evade a lot more than others. It just takes timing and knowing when they are evading.

The two are almost entirely mutually exclusive.

hooma.9642:

Arkantos.7460:

Evade mechanic on thiefs is already balanced, as Long as there are not other utilies to avoid dmg,
the little amount of thiefs who use s/d 3333 to think to be “more effective” can be easily focused, because there are so many aftercasts that makes his “permavade” holey like a cheese

that kitten talk about aftercast gets old.. just a hint u can interrupt the aftercast.. go and watch seizer playing this noob build and evading 24/7 while doing enoug dmg.. or ask jumper to clarify about that.

i have nothing against evades.. but in my opinion 0.75 skillcoeefficient on a “spammable” evadeskill is just to much. either its a opener/util for larcenous strike or its a attackskill. both is just to much regarding no cooldown thx to iniative.

the same goes for pistolwhip. it doesnt need an evade.. either i have my target in front of me and stunned or not. pistolwhip is not for standing in the crowd to spam “safely” dmg skills.

and to clarify.. 0.75 is 0.05 less than the first 2 autoattack skills.. the gap is to close for that much survivability and utility.

seizer like this ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3o2fB_ADjc …..
Play wisely and you can Counter s/d build, shure not with every class or every build …

style.6173:

Shockwave.1230:

style.6173:

I would like to see sword #2 changed completely. It is just not fun to fight against. I’d remove the teleport, keep the immobilize, add a cripple, and transfer one condition to an enemy.

FS and PW are fine.

How would you compensate for the lack of survivability you’d create?

You’d be gaining survivability through the condition transfer. Imagine that every time you press 2, you pass a condition that you have back to the target. An example, a necro hits you with 8 stacks of bleeds. You press 2 and the stacks are put back on the necro. Not only are you protecting yourself, but you are adding a lot of damage back onto the target. Especially with a sword mainhand that hits multiple targets, you are doing big damage.

Of course you are more vulnerable to direct damage, but I think the condi protection makes up for it.

It’s not enough compensation to keep sword viable. Thief doesn’t die due to the slow passive damage of condition, they die from being squishy.

The gap created by shadow stepping helps them avoid damage.

At this point it is likely that thief should be removed from the game all together. I am being serious. WvW hates the stealth and mobility Spvp wants a newly buffed after more than a year skill nerfed. I think the class is so tired of being kittened over that it is time for it just be deleted from the game.

TheGuy.3568:

At this point it is likely that thief should be removed from the game all together. I am being serious. WvW hates the stealth and mobility Spvp wants a newly buffed after more than a year skill nerfed. I think the class is so tired of being kittened over that it is time for it just be deleted from the game.

Give me my Dervish and I’ll be happy to oblige (or just give thief staff — scythe staff skin anyone? >.>).

Arkantos.7460:

hooma.9642:

Arkantos.7460:

Evade mechanic on thiefs is already balanced, as Long as there are not other utilies to avoid dmg,
the little amount of thiefs who use s/d 3333 to think to be “more effective” can be easily focused, because there are so many aftercasts that makes his “permavade” holey like a cheese

that kitten talk about aftercast gets old.. just a hint u can interrupt the aftercast.. go and watch seizer playing this noob build and evading 24/7 while doing enoug dmg.. or ask jumper to clarify about that.

i have nothing against evades.. but in my opinion 0.75 skillcoeefficient on a “spammable” evadeskill is just to much. either its a opener/util for larcenous strike or its a attackskill. both is just to much regarding no cooldown thx to iniative.

the same goes for pistolwhip. it doesnt need an evade.. either i have my target in front of me and stunned or not. pistolwhip is not for standing in the crowd to spam “safely” dmg skills.

and to clarify.. 0.75 is 0.05 less than the first 2 autoattack skills.. the gap is to close for that much survivability and utility.

seizer like this ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3o2fB_ADjc …..
Play wisely and you can Counter s/d build, shure not with every class or every build …

nope not exactly. the necro had 2 advantages:
1. build based on spam condis. no big hitter
2. 2 ranged weapons.

so yeah s/d thief got beaten by another cheese build. if we take this as excuse, why we even balance? let them all go out of control.

Viking Jorun.5413:

TheGuy.3568:

At this point it is likely that thief should be removed from the game all together. I am being serious. WvW hates the stealth and mobility Spvp wants a newly buffed after more than a year skill nerfed. I think the class is so tired of being kittened over that it is time for it just be deleted from the game.

Give me my Dervish and I’ll be happy to oblige (or just give thief staff — scythe staff skin anyone? >.>).

I miss dervish at the same time I like my thief but no matter what build I play the whine gets out of hand. In fact if dervish was added it would be the new class to whine over….for thief.

It isn’t fair that dervish can spin.

Why?

It makes back stab really hard to land.

Make chill affect initiative regen and its all good.

Aza.2105:

Make chill affect initiative regen and its all good.

Jon Sharp already talked about this. Decreasing initiative regen by 66% would be too hard a hit for thieves, WHO ARE ALREADY AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PIT OF BALANCE — YES THAT’S RIGHT — so making chill affect initiative would be detrimental to the thief as it already is. See to the signature before calling for nerfs again. You’re a guardian, so I don’t even see how you can argue chilled at all. It’s not like Glacial Heart is decent in any way.

Viking Jorun.5413:

Aza.2105:

Make chill affect initiative regen and its all good.

Jon Sharp already talked about this. Decreasing initiative regen by 66% would be too hard a hit for thieves, WHO ARE ALREADY AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PIT OF BALANCE — YES THAT’S RIGHT — so making chill affect initiative would be detrimental to the thief as it already is. See to the signature before calling for nerfs again. You’re a guardian, so I don’t even see how you can argue chilled at all. It’s not like Glacial Heart is decent in any way.

Thieves at the bottom of the balance pit? hahaha

I can understand the frustration. A good sword/dagger thief will own me every time. Too much “Here then there..no I am not..gotcha..in yer face..see ya later.” Going on with it. However, when you do see someone play it correctly, it is really quite beautiful to watch. You know at the end of it you stood little chance. However Thieve’s currently suffer horribly from any form of diversity. Every single build relies on the same mechanic—-stealth—- They have virtually no stability and most of their cleanse they have to stealth. A lot of thief players have begged for thief to be given more sustain, and less dependence on stealth. This is why they evade lots with roll for initiative etc..because if they get caught, they are pretty much dead without having any stability, cleanses etc that all fit nicely into any build they maybe using. Sword/dagger is kinda like they got pigeon holed, and while in that hole became good at what they had left. It turns out after months of different people experimenting, posting builds, theory crafting etc..the sword/dagger was born and it happens to be fairly deadly when executed right. You can’t really hate the player, you can only hate the game that reduced them to constantly having to use stealth, nerfed daggers, nerfed everything and only left them sword (Which has also been nerfed.) Stealth/high evade has always been a bad idea in any form of PvP and difficult to balance well in a changing meta. A-net took the risk of including it and now the dog can’t be put back on the chain without thief becoming entirely useless to play in any form of the game.

TheGuy.3568:

Viking Jorun.5413:

TheGuy.3568:

At this point it is likely that thief should be removed from the game all together. I am being serious. WvW hates the stealth and mobility Spvp wants a newly buffed after more than a year skill nerfed. I think the class is so tired of being kittened over that it is time for it just be deleted from the game.

Give me my Dervish and I’ll be happy to oblige (or just give thief staff — scythe staff skin anyone? >.>).

I miss dervish at the same time I like my thief but no matter what build I play the whine gets out of hand. In fact if dervish was added it would be the new class to whine over….for thief.

It isn’t fair that dervish can spin.

Why?

It makes back stab really hard to land.

Dervish The Reaper, woah! man ill buy that kitten. but but, whats in gw1 stays in gw1 right?
might give me a Rifle, i will kittening assassinate all this whiners at distance. (Ghost? anyone?)

Viking Jorun.5413:

Aza.2105:

Make chill affect initiative regen and its all good.

Jon Sharp already talked about this. Decreasing initiative regen by 66% would be too hard a hit for thieves, WHO ARE ALREADY AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PIT OF BALANCE — YES THAT’S RIGHT — so making chill affect initiative would be detrimental to the thief as it already is. See to the signature before calling for nerfs again. You’re a guardian, so I don’t even see how you can argue chilled at all. It’s not like Glacial Heart is decent in any way.

Yes I so happen to play a guardian, but I do not think I am the class. Neither will I defend it like its a extension of myself.

Thieves are not the class that is the least balance, in fact if you journey to the wvw forums its one of the classes people complain about the most. Why is this? How do they go from last to near the top? The conquest mode is only a facade to hide severe balance issues with the game. Without many problems begin to show up. The moment Anet decides to add a deathmatch mode is the moment spvp inherits many problems found in wvw.

The thief class has many exceptions to the game rules that makes it appear a cheesy class:

1. Stealth has no counter
2. The evade mechanic has no counter
3. The class isn’t effected by chill like the 7 other classes

These exceptions only cause imbalance, another similar situation is with warrior healing signet. Anet gave them a high regen that is uninterruptable. While other classes heals can be stopped. As you see the only thing this has caused is people to complain about it.

If they focused their efforts in balancing classes around mechanics that have counters instead of giving them exceptions to the rules then I’m sure more viable builds would exist for them.

Aza.2105:

Viking Jorun.5413:

Aza.2105:

Make chill affect initiative regen and its all good.

Jon Sharp already talked about this. Decreasing initiative regen by 66% would be too hard a hit for thieves, WHO ARE ALREADY AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PIT OF BALANCE — YES THAT’S RIGHT — so making chill affect initiative would be detrimental to the thief as it already is. See to the signature before calling for nerfs again. You’re a guardian, so I don’t even see how you can argue chilled at all. It’s not like Glacial Heart is decent in any way.

Yes I so happen to play a guardian, but I do not think I am the class. Neither will I defend it like its a extension of myself.

Thieves are not the class that is the least balance, in fact if you journey to the wvw forums its one of the classes people complain about the most. Why is this? How do they go from last to near the top? The conquest mode is only a facade to hide severe balance issues with the game. Without many problems begin to show up. The moment Anet decides to add a deathmatch mode is the moment spvp inherits many problems found in wvw.

The thief class has many exceptions to the game rules that makes it appear a cheesy class:

1. Stealth has no counter
2. The evade mechanic has no counter
3. The class isn’t effected by chill like the 7 other classes

These exceptions only cause imbalance, another similar situation is with warrior healing signet. Anet gave them a high regen that is uninterruptable. While other classes heals can be stopped. As you see the only thing this has caused is people to complain about it.

If they focused their efforts in balancing classes around mechanics that have counters instead of giving them exceptions to the rules then I’m sure more viable builds would exist for them.

1) Stealth Traps, Sic’ Em, general AoE spike damage.
2) Immobilize, fear, stun.
3) Hard counters happen. Deal with it. Our utilities and heal are still affected by chill.

The game is balanced around conquest. You’re in a structured PvP forum. I’d assume you’d be smart enough to assume that we’re all talking about sPvP here. On the WvW note, do you know why you see so many thieves roaming? Because we’re pigeonholed into it, and have very little impact in zerg play. Despite being an excellent 1v1 class (which this game isn’t balanced around — sorry, cupcake.) thieves are horrible at almost every other aspect of the game. Thieves aren’t in a great place as far as sPvP goes, and will be nerfed further after the crit damage nerf goes live.

Aza.2105:

-snip-
in fact if you journey to the wvw forums its one of the classes people complain about the most. Why is this? How do they go from last to near the top? The conquest mode is only a facade to hide severe balance issues with the game. Without many problems begin to show up. The moment Anet decides to add a deathmatch mode is the moment spvp inherits many problems found in wvw.
-snip-
The thief class has many exceptions to the game rules that makes it appear a cheesy class:

1. Stealth has no counter
2. The evade mechanic has no counter
3. The class isn’t effected by chill like the 7 other classes
-snip

No, no, no, no, no, no!
You really don’t have a thorough understanding of game mechanics and spvp. Many of the thief related problems that I see on the wvw forums are linked to different builds entirely and are often caused by damage scaling and many wvw’ers having no idea how to counter thieves. These very same people will get trashed by a lot of other builds that require some knowledge in order to counter them, but thief has flashy numbers and evades and that kittens people off more than a condi build that has high toughness.

1. stealth has plenty of counters, but they are all not focused on countering ‘stealth’ but what the person is doing in stealth. Stealth itself is a mechanic/game rule.
2. The evade mechanic is supposed to be a counter, but again, what are you talking about here… evade through dodge roll, evade on pw, or the mechanic itself? Since then you could argue that a well timed blind or block don’t have a counter either… evade itself is a mechanic/game rule.
3. True, I suppose that makes thief a hardcounter vs your chill build…

Jelger.6758:

Aza.2105:

-snip-
in fact if you journey to the wvw forums its one of the classes people complain about the most. Why is this? How do they go from last to near the top? The conquest mode is only a facade to hide severe balance issues with the game. Without many problems begin to show up. The moment Anet decides to add a deathmatch mode is the moment spvp inherits many problems found in wvw.
-snip-
The thief class has many exceptions to the game rules that makes it appear a cheesy class:

1. Stealth has no counter
2. The evade mechanic has no counter
3. The class isn’t effected by chill like the 7 other classes
-snip

No, no, no, no, no, no!
You really don’t have a thorough understanding of game mechanics and spvp. Many of the thief related problems that I see on the wvw forums are linked to different builds entirely and are often caused by damage scaling and many wvw’ers having no idea how to counter thieves. These very same people will get trashed by a lot of other builds that require some knowledge in order to counter them, but thief has flashy numbers and evades and that kittens people off more than a condi build that has high toughness.

1. stealth has plenty of counters, but they are all not focused on countering ‘stealth’ but what the person is doing in stealth. Stealth itself is a mechanic/game rule.
2. The evade mechanic is supposed to be a counter, but again, what are you talking about here… evade through dodge roll, evade on pw, or the mechanic itself? Since then you could argue that a well timed blind or block don’t have a counter either… evade itself is a mechanic/game rule.
3. True, I suppose that makes thief a hardcounter vs your chill build…

1. Stealth only has one counter, sic em.

2. Block has unblockable skills to counter balance it. Dodge has endurance and weakness. Evade has nothing. The problem with evade is that its the exact same mechanic as dodge, but folded in with offensive and defensive skills. Avoiding damage entirely while being able to do dps is quite powerful.

I feel Blurred frenzy for example is balanced, it has a relatively long cd and they can’t move. Once they use it you can expect when it will be off cd again. The thief class does not have this issue, they can freely use evades on weapon skills as long as they have initiative. Ranger with sword and dagger is similar since evade is present on 3/5 of their weapon skill bar with low cooldowns. Between dodge (vigor) and evade this gives a enormous amount of mitigation. Probably more than a class with high toughness.

^ My sensibilities have to agree with last sentence above me. The ability to attack and also inherently evade is technically the definition of OP. I realise there is damage coefficients on ranger, but these weapon sets also do condition damage which can/could be exploited. You inflict multiple hits whilst evading 60% of their hits at optimal windows.