Guild Wars 2

Dear Anet and Thief players,
i recetly joined Free tournament and encountered a thief in first game that completly ruined mine whole game experience. Why? Sorry but when someone can kill me with 3 hits that is not even bad thats is simply frustrating.

Heres just one picture before i left spvp, think it explains all.
http://i.imgur.com/3034g.jpg

I and all my friends dont play spvp just becouse this, i hope someday it will be fixed.

Honestly players

Tanknastole.3617:

Dear Anet and Thief players,
i recetly joined Free tournament and encountered a thief in first game that completly ruined mine whole game experience. Why? Sorry but when someone can kill me with 3 hits that is not even bad thats is simply frustrating.

Heres just one picture before i left spvp, think it explains all.
http://i.imgur.com/3034g.jpg

I and all my friends dont play spvp just becouse this, i hope someday it will be fixed.

Honestly players

They are ruining it again, that is the same build. Steal, C&D, Backstab, and then a Heartseeker. Only thing I can say about a 8k heartseeker is don’t be so squishy.

Its Areanet’s Fault for ruining all thieves build except D/D Might Stacking Backstab (they nerfed BALANCED Version) and D/D Death Blossom Thieves.

While I hate it. I have to play 30 30 0 0 10 on thief using Venom and Signet to stack might and one shot people. Its the only good build left due to nerfing all x/d (p/d and s/d) and no buffs to x/p

its really sad kinda.. the only thing holding away backstab thiefs were some bunker builds and those all got nerfed now.
And since they did not really buff anything else at Thiefs and left the basilisk venom backstab glasscannon build alone, they kinda gave Thief a free kill-them-all-card in hot-join

In premade tournaments backstab thiefs kinda work poorly, but thats yust another reason to make thiefs play a different build.. or at least fix thiefs in such a way that a different tactic is viable

There so much wrong in this thread I don’t know where to start.

Nerfs to Thieves put them very slightly under-par with Warrior atm.
Burst builds aren’t “ruining” anything. I don’t know why you think this.
Hotjoin isn’t balanced (hasn’t ever been) and shouldn’t be what the game is balanced around.
99% of QQ I read is L2P issues.

PS: If you’re playing Thief without 900 toughness you’re playing it wrong.

Raytek.6193:

There so much wrong in this thread I don’t know where to start.

Nerfs to Thieves put them very slightly under-par with Warrior atm.
Burst builds aren’t “ruining” anything. I don’t know why you think this.
Hotjoin isn’t balanced (hasn’t ever been) and shouldn’t be what the game is balanced around.
99% of QQ I read is L2P issues.

PS: If you’re playing Thief without 900 toughness you’re playing it wrong.

As i have writen above it was tournament not hot-join

People complained about the Backstab Combo prior to the patch and rightly so.

Yet somehow ANet deemed it appropriate to nerf it in the least effective way.

How are backstab thieves ruining tournaments then? Because they have burst and you aren’t dodging, using a stun breaker, or have any kind of defense in your build?

What the nerf accomplished was 1. balancing dancing dagger so that you don’t have an AoE backstab and 2. reducing the upfront burst from CnD + Steal which didn’t allow people to react. Note that a huge chunk of thief’s burst damage comes from their backstab. Any good player will instinctively dodge after taking tons of damage from the CnD+Steal combo and pop their heal bringing them up to ~75% even if they’re full burst.

Right common glass builds consist of:
1. Well Necro
2. Thief
3. Warrior
4. Ranger [Vyndetta, only ranger NA]
5. Condi Engineer
6. Mesmer
7. Burst elementalist

And now look at all the counters they have, assuming they don’t see the Thief coming and are stunned from venom:

1. Deathshroud to soak up most of the burst damage is your only option is you’re running 3 wells, burst necros still have around ~1200+ toughness.
2. Shadowstep as a double stun breaker into either Heal/Shadow refuge to stealth for a long time.
3. Endure pain in traits/as a utility or if not running endure pain, balanced stance into shield block.
4. Protect me + Signet of Stone or Lightning Reflexes.
5. Elixir S in traits/utility, Elixir R to rez yourself if you have no stun breaks or Elixir S trait.
6. Blink, Decoy, and Distortion are all incredibly strong.
7. Armor of earth and mist form.

As you can see, each has their own way to deal with burst.

well i don’t think the thiefs were the problem they have champion titles afterall.

Having stealth and clone classes in a PVP game was a terrible design mistake. How are these classes remotely fun to play against. They only make me want to /sigh quit and anticipate better future game releases.

In a perfect GW2, there is no stealth and no clones, and very little player NPC pets. But in reality all we get is this mess.

You deserved to die. I see FIVE dagger hits and steal, not 3 hits. That takes a while to pull of. And the C&D was a non crit, as i can see. You have 916 tufness only. We had a nerf to the most serious build (S/D),and ure complaining for the same reason these boards were filled until the patch, even with a nerf to C&D that removed the usual 4.5k/5K and replaced it for that less than 2k hit.
Good bye.

EoNxBoNx.9213:

Tanknastole.3617:

Dear Anet and Thief players,
i recetly joined Free tournament and encountered a thief in first game that completly ruined mine whole game experience. Why? Sorry but when someone can kill me with 3 hits that is not even bad thats is simply frustrating.

Heres just one picture before i left spvp, think it explains all.
http://i.imgur.com/3034g.jpg

I and all my friends dont play spvp just becouse this, i hope someday it will be fixed.

Honestly players

They are ruining it again, that is the same build. Steal, C&D, Backstab, and then a Heartseeker. Only thing I can say about a 8k heartseeker is don’t be so squishy.

Yeah guys, build vitality and toughness so you can’t do any damage. Now, you’ll last an extra second or two. Instead of pressing 2 three times…that thief might need to stop doing his taxes or developing new theories on quantum physics and use another heartseeker. Building defense is an absolute waste of time. Better off going glass cannon and hope you can burst him into using stealth, then just spamming attacks until a thief shows up on the ground. Now, the fun begins. Catch the thief again, yay!

Warmage Timeraider.5861:

its really sad kinda.. the only thing holding away backstab thiefs were some bunker builds and those all got nerfed now.
And since they did not really buff anything else at Thiefs and left the basilisk venom backstab glasscannon build alone, they kinda gave Thief a free kill-them-all-card in hot-join

To be fair to ArenaNet, this is kinda what people asked for..
I have run into countless thief/bunker discussions where the general idea has been “Nerf those lame bunkers and then people will not need to play as glass cannon thiefs to counter them”.. Well they got what they wanted, bunkers are basically no more (they were rendered obsolete the moment they got “fixed” down to the point where they can’t counter glass cannons better than anyone else) but does people re-roll from their glass cannon builds? Of course not, who would? Now that they can focus their attention on the even more squishy classes and reign supreme.

I have not been playing much since the new patch due to vacation, but my initial impression is that some things of the patch was well done and needed, and some things just shifted the imbalance even further in the wrong direction.
More testing is needed, but I think ArenaNet just made for themselves some more work, not that it was needed

God this again? I’m sorry but learn to play! I’m a backstab thief and even today i faced an enemy with the same build on the other team. He was even a higher rank than me! Yet, i killed him 9 out of 10 times! Here are some tips that might help:

1) STUNBREAKERS. Bascally a free win if you have it off cooldown.
(As a thief, i shadowstep(utility) away, heal up and enter stealth, shadowstep back and backstab him if possible)

2) Surprise him and have battlefield awereness! All he tries to do is surprise you. You need battlefield awereness to beat him. Know where he is at all times and when you expect him, you dodge or be prepared to use your stunbreaker. You have absolutely nothing to save you? RUN and come back later to surprise him!

3) Know your enemy! Play a thief and you will see how they play, how they attack, how they survive etc. This can be very handy because you will learn to predict their next steps and act accordingly.

4) And last but not least, one of my favourite tricks (as a thief) and it works every time. But it is risky because you sacrifice a stunbreaker! When you look him the eyes from a big distance, you know he waits for you to come close so he can unleash on you. What i sometimes do is shadowstep to bridge the gap and then do the backstab(steal) combo! 2000+ distance closed in an instant and they never expect it!

There are many more tips out there but here are just a few out of my head. In tournament PvP, nobody complains about backstab thieves. They are glass cannons and only have one viable build really. There are plenty of counters against them so please don’t judge them based on hotjoin. Especially because you are fairly new to PvP!

“Anet has heard your concerns about Thief bursts and after careful consideration we have decided to nerf Elementalists so some more to address the issue.”

The others are right.

You need to completely spec, trait and gear yourself to counter Thieves.

Specs are only good if they can survive a Thief.

All class balance is described as relative to a Thief or Warrior.

You need to play perfectly have save all cooldowns, and use teamwork to counter a Thief.

But Thieves are not overpowered.

I think its funny that the original post is a glass cannon complaining about glass cannon thief… no kitten ur gunna get hit hard u got no survivability.

arena net has nerfd thieves so far into the ground its not even funny. there is no such thing as a competative thief anymore…. you will never see any in paid tourny because they have 0 use. With the rediculous nerf to downed state every single spec of thief is now useless in tourny.

congrats arena net you have lost a customer… keep it up and u will drive this game into the ground

As i read the thiefs comments here in this thread – i only can laugh.
Really – should this vid be a help to counter a thief? If you are already in a fight and a thief joins the fight – i want to see you how to stunbreak within 0,25sec – as shown in this vid. Ridiculous.
We should do other builds just to survive backstab-thiefs? Come on! Dont be childish.

I dont get the sense of a pvp-game where its possible for 1 class to kill an enemy within 1-1,5secs without the need of any skill. Just press 3 buttons … and you are done.
Thats not PvP!
And even if you use your stunbreaker (if available) – you have to use your heal-skill immediatly – wow … and now the thief goes in stealth and attacks a few secs later again. Thats PvP how it should be .. .yeah .. right. Oo
Why should a thief do such high damage? And please dont say — “hey the warrior does high kittenoo”. He hasn’t got stealth, its easy to dodge bulls-rush, the only high-damage skills are 100blades(may not move) and eviscerade (high CD).
Its very easy to avoid these skills.

Ah – and if you wanna play your thief really good – just spam 2, you dont even have to follow the enemy – you’ll get an auto-follow for free.

@Xae
You are making a joke, but you said everything right except i would replace “thief” with “high burst specs”. This is how guild wars is played. This is not other mmo where u sit there fighting for 3 hrs, this is the game where you can die in under 3 seconds if you are bad. Bad players think they can play glass cannon but they get owned and cry for nerfs. Thankfully arenanet not paying attention to them.

interferenz.8739:

As i read the thiefs comments here in this thread – i only can laugh.
Really – should this vid be a help to counter a thief? If you are already in a fight and a thief joins the fight – i want to see you how to stunbreak within 0,25sec – as shown in this vid. Ridiculous.
We should do other builds just to survive backstab-thiefs? Come on! Dont be childish.

I dont get the sense of a pvp-game where its possible for 1 class to kill an enemy within 1-1,5secs without the need of any skill. Just press 3 buttons … and you are done.
Thats not PvP!
And even if you use your stunbreaker (if available) – you have to use your heal-skill immediatly – wow … and now the thief goes in stealth and attacks a few secs later again. Thats PvP how it should be .. .yeah .. right. Oo
Why should a thief do such high damage? And please dont say — “hey the warrior does high kittenoo”. He hasn’t got stealth, its easy to dodge bulls-rush, the only high-damage skills are 100blades(may not move) and eviscerade (high CD).
Its very easy to avoid these skills.

Ah – and if you wanna play your thief really good – just spam 2, you dont even have to follow the enemy – you’ll get an auto-follow for free.

Here is reason you are bad: you focus on your 1v1 too much. As you said, your problem is when thief joins fight you insta-die. Pay attention next time to more than just your opponent. Any warrior or dps ele could do same thing to you. Situation you describe is your own fault. Accept it and get better.

milo.6942:

Here is reason you are bad: you focus on your 1v1 too much. As you said, your problem is when thief joins fight you insta-die. Pay attention next time to more than just your opponent. Any warrior or dps ele could do same thing to you. Situation you describe is your own fault. Accept it and get better.

I pay attention in a fight. The difference is – you see a warrior or a ele coming .. but you dont see the stealth-thief. And he can port with steal from a distance of 900. And in a 2v2 or 3v3 or whatever – you dont have a chance to avoid this high damage.
A warrior needs adrenaline for his eviscerate and it has 10 secs cooldown – the thiefs can backstab instant without cd (sure – initiative is needed, but there isnt lack of it if he joins a fight).
The 100b are easily dodged, blocked or you get stability … no problem.

Are we playing the same guild wars? Everytime I hot join for the 8v8 I see 4-6 warriors and 1-2 thieves, in fact I have had many thieve-less games, OP you complain about backstab but a rifle warrior would easily crit you for 15k+ damage (I have reached 16k yes from one hit and volley also gives big numbers on glassy targets) you just have to pay attention.

If anything I would say mesmers are ruining the balance of tpvp

Rifle – warrior 16k? Never, thats simply not true.
And even if it would be – you know the charge-time for that skill, and the animation? What should be hard to avoid this shot?

And please … stop that “pay attention” .. you can only pay attention to things you see. You cant pay attention to a stealthy thief Oo

interferenz.8739:

Rifle – warrior 16k? Never, thats simply not true.
And even if it would be – you know the charge-time for that skill, and the animation? What should be hard to avoid this shot?

And please … stop that “pay attention” .. you can only pay attention to things you see. You cant pay attention to a stealthy thief Oo

I know the long animation, but you wouldnt believe the people who take the damage head on, many people also fail at dodging it so its effective in hot join, plus last time I checked thieves cant pull stealth out of their kitten too many people also take a combo 100b+evicerate head on, its like hot join is full of people who don’t have stun breakers or conveniently just leave them.

I play thief (admittedly bow and sword/pistol) and imo the bs burst combo is still a bit high. The hard bit is avoiding the opening Cnd (precast) steal mug combo. This causes about I think 6-10K (glass – tank). After that targets tend to get their stunbreaker off and the fight actually begins. Problem is 10K on another glass is pretty much game winner. The 15 Nov patch nerfed CnD by 33% – maybe 600 – 2K? Im not sure. For better or worse I predict next patch (whenever it is) may see Mug dmg reduced same. I would definitely have preferred a patch giving steal a .5 sec cast time, which would have stopped the precast Cnd and alot of QQ. Yes I know there is a signet which ports thieves, they could use that instead, but that has the opportunity cost of taking up a utility slot – and it does not come with steal-mug dmg. And the proper shadowstep util too, but that would not be easy to land with a moving target. Anyhoo, things are slightly better since patch. hmm actually reading back on this perhaps the correct fix is reduce mug dmg by say 33% ?

Thief was a broken class to begin with.

Initiative and stealth have no place in PvP. They’re impossible to balance around. There is no reason for a thief to spec for toughness (because of stealth) or to use more than a handful of skills (because there is no CD on skills, and therefore no risk/reward in using particular skills, you can just spam your strongest skills endlessly).

milo.6942:

Any warrior or dps ele could do same thing to you. Situation you describe is your own fault. Accept it and get better.

Not true. Warriors cannot teleport or ambush out of stealth (you will always see a warrior charging you). DPS eles are not a threat because of their extremely high vulnerability and the difficulty associated with orchestrating their attacks.

So many L2P issues. Maybe when you guys can make it past r20 you’ll understand how inexperienced you sound.

So tired of all the INSERTCLASSHERE whining because people don’t know how to counter them. Remember this is a team game. If people really need me to explain why something is OP/Not OP I don’t mind.

milo.6942:

@Xae
You are making a joke, but you said everything right except i would replace “thief” with “high burst specs”. This is how guild wars is played. This is not other mmo where u sit there fighting for 3 hrs, this is the game where you can die in under 3 seconds if you are bad. Bad players think they can play glass cannon but they get owned and cry for nerfs. Thankfully arenanet not paying attention to them.

Show me another class that can burst for 20K in ~2 seconds (with haste) and do it while mixing in CC while approaching from stealth and a 0 cooldown gap closer.

Do that and I will change it to “burst damage”, instead of “Thieves”.

The “Problem” with thieves isn’t the burst just by the numeric value, but by how trivial it is to get off the burst.

A warrior and burst for 15K, but the move requires a build up, is telegraphed and the delay in casting lets CC fall off avoiding “CC-> Dead”.

Also, wake me up when an Engineer, Necro, Ranger, Guardian or Mesmer can, in the first 2 seconds of the fight, burst for 20K. Other classes require build up to burst that high. If they can at all, and that is a mighty big “if”.

That build up is key. If a Mesmer gets out 2 Berserkers and times a shatter and a channel to match the ’zerkers attack to burst you for 15k he spent 15+ seconds setting that up.

You’ll have a point when Rogues start fights at 0 initiative, until then you do not.

So thieves should have to “set up their burst” like the other professions? How viable do you think that would make them? The fact that they can get in, do damage and escape is what makes a thief a thief. So do not try to take away a thief’s uniqueness because you haven’t learned to anticipate and deal with it yet.

Xae.7204:

milo.6942:

@Xae
You are making a joke, but you said everything right except i would replace “thief” with “high burst specs”. This is how guild wars is played. This is not other mmo where u sit there fighting for 3 hrs, this is the game where you can die in under 3 seconds if you are bad. Bad players think they can play glass cannon but they get owned and cry for nerfs. Thankfully arenanet not paying attention to them.

Show me another class that can burst for 20K in ~2 seconds (with haste) and do it while mixing in CC while approaching from stealth and a 0 cooldown gap closer.

Do that and I will change it to “burst damage”, instead of “Thieves”.

The “Problem” with thieves isn’t the burst just by the numeric value, but by how trivial it is to get off the burst.

A warrior and burst for 15K, but the move requires a build up, is telegraphed and the delay in casting lets CC fall off avoiding “CC-> Dead”.

Also, wake me up when an Engineer, Necro, Ranger, Guardian or Mesmer can, in the first 2 seconds of the fight, burst for 20K. Other classes require build up to burst that high. If they can at all, and that is a mighty big “if”.

That build up is key. If a Mesmer gets out 2 Berserkers and times a shatter and a channel to match the ’zerkers attack to burst you for 15k he spent 15+ seconds setting that up.

You’ll have a point when Rogues start fights at 0 initiative, until then you do not.

Warriors have a utility skill that can fully fill their adrenaline. As well as a heal skill.

MindlessRuff.1948:

So thieves should have to “set up their burst” like the other professions? How viable do you think that would make them? The fact that they can get in, do damage and escape is what makes a thief a thief. So do not try to take away a thief’s uniqueness because you haven’t learned to anticipate and deal with it yet.

And here we have the winner.

Thieves should be unstoppable. That is literally what you posted. That a thief should be able to get in, kill someone and get out, with out a chance to be stopped.

If thieves don’t need to “setup” burst, then they need less burst. That is called “balance”. You trade off the need for setup time for doing less damage. You are saying that your class should have no downside, and not be able to be countered.

Xae.7204:

MindlessRuff.1948:

So thieves should have to “set up their burst” like the other professions? How viable do you think that would make them? The fact that they can get in, do damage and escape is what makes a thief a thief. So do not try to take away a thief’s uniqueness because you haven’t learned to anticipate and deal with it yet.

And here we have the winner.

Thieves should be unstoppable. That is literally what you posted. That a thief should be able to get in, kill someone and get out, with out a chance to be stopped.

If thieves don’t need to “setup” burst, then they need less burst. That is called “balance”. You trade off the need for setup time for doing less damage. You are saying that your class should have no downside, and not be able to be countered.

I play elementalist for your information, and I do not think that thieves should be unstoppable. I think that as time goes on players will develop better awareness and thieves will go down in popularity (think of spies in tf2 if you have played that). Arena Net has already nerfed thief burst and may continue to do so but they will not just nerf backstab by 20% or something to appease the forum posters.

MindlessRuff.1948:

So thieves should have to “set up their burst” like the other professions? How viable do you think that would make them? The fact that they can get in, do damage and escape is what makes a thief a thief. So do not try to take away a thief’s uniqueness because you haven’t learned to anticipate and deal with it yet.

That’s the problem. The thief is founded on broken/inherently OP class mechanics.

The initiative system makes no sense. All it does is encourage spamming of a few skills while limiting skill diversity. It’s also incredibly difficult to balance around.

Likewise, stealth is a totally broken mechanic. Because it’s there, thieves have no incentive to go any build but a glass cannon one. It doesn’t matter if you’re a glass cannon or not when you can just disappear out of every encounter. And just the same, stealth is also a nightmare to balance around.

The red flags were here from the beginning. The best solution would be to completely re-design the thief for PvP. Clearly, that isn’t going to happen at this point.

@Malady: From my PoV as an S/D thief, initiative isn’t an infinite well to spam for which to spam from but rather a means to let me use my weapon skills for their utility as needed. As for stealth, well it doesn’t count for much when the AoEs start flying. If you’re caught in one you’re going to want to get out of it, just like everyone else.

I think stealth is fine. It’s generally very short, and AoE, knockdown/back, channeled abilities negate much of it. Builds with no AoE may tend to suffer, but lack of AoE is something to be taken into account with your build, just like condition removal, stun breaker, etc.

The funny part is they nerfed what didn’t need nerfing and let the CnD Steal BS HS combo. Pathetic they are not playing the game nor listening to their fans.

MindlessRuff.1948:

Xae.7204:

MindlessRuff.1948:

So thieves should have to “set up their burst” like the other professions? How viable do you think that would make them? The fact that they can get in, do damage and escape is what makes a thief a thief. So do not try to take away a thief’s uniqueness because you haven’t learned to anticipate and deal with it yet.

And here we have the winner.

Thieves should be unstoppable. That is literally what you posted. That a thief should be able to get in, kill someone and get out, with out a chance to be stopped.

If thieves don’t need to “setup” burst, then they need less burst. That is called “balance”. You trade off the need for setup time for doing less damage. You are saying that your class should have no downside, and not be able to be countered.

I play elementalist for your information, and I do not think that thieves should be unstoppable. I think that as time goes on players will develop better awareness and thieves will go down in popularity (think of spies in tf2 if you have played that). Arena Net has already nerfed thief burst and may continue to do so but they will not just nerf backstab by 20% or something to appease the forum posters.

The near constant nerfs against Spys in TF2 helped as well. Also, Stealth in MMOs isn’t a new concept. People have been dealing with it since 2001 and DAoC.

You can’t have a class built around “Get in, Kill, Get out”, because that is the definition of overpowered.

You’re talking about high initiation (“Get In”), extreme Burst (“Kill”), and high durability (“Get Out”), that makes a class overpowered.

If you want high Initiation and good burst you need very low durability.
If you want high Initiation and High Durability you need low damage.

Right now Thieves are high Durability (stealth), high burst (25k+) and High initiation (multiple gap closers, stealth).

Arena Net can either jump on the power creep bandwagon and buff every other ability in the game (all 500 of them), plus items/HP pools, or they can nerf a couple of overpowered traits/abilities.

Xae.7204:

MindlessRuff.1948:

Xae.7204:

MindlessRuff.1948:

So thieves should have to “set up their burst” like the other professions? How viable do you think that would make them? The fact that they can get in, do damage and escape is what makes a thief a thief. So do not try to take away a thief’s uniqueness because you haven’t learned to anticipate and deal with it yet.

And here we have the winner.

Thieves should be unstoppable. That is literally what you posted. That a thief should be able to get in, kill someone and get out, with out a chance to be stopped.

If thieves don’t need to “setup” burst, then they need less burst. That is called “balance”. You trade off the need for setup time for doing less damage. You are saying that your class should have no downside, and not be able to be countered.

I play elementalist for your information, and I do not think that thieves should be unstoppable. I think that as time goes on players will develop better awareness and thieves will go down in popularity (think of spies in tf2 if you have played that). Arena Net has already nerfed thief burst and may continue to do so but they will not just nerf backstab by 20% or something to appease the forum posters.

The near constant nerfs against Spys in TF2 helped as well. Also, Stealth in MMOs isn’t a new concept. People have been dealing with it since 2001 and DAoC.

You can’t have a class built around “Get in, Kill, Get out”, because that is the definition of overpowered.

You’re talking about high initiation (“Get In”), extreme Burst (“Kill”), and high durability (“Get Out”), that makes a class overpowered.

If you want high Initiation and good burst you need very low durability.
If you want high Initiation and High Durability you need low damage.

Right now Thieves are high Durability (stealth), high burst (25k+) and High initiation (multiple gap closers, stealth).

Arena Net can either jump on the power creep bandwagon and buff every other ability in the game (all 500 of them), plus items/HP pools, or they can nerf a couple of overpowered traits/abilities.

The problem is, durability is not equal to stealth, thieves still take full damage in stealth, so if you see a shadow refuge go down, the thief is basically telling you, “Attack here! Kill me instantly!” The thing is, once you figure out stealth it is not as OP as it seems.

That assume the Thief is bad and stays in the refuge for more than a second or two to stack stealth.

Your working assumption is that everyone who plays a thief is good and everyone who doesn’t is bad.

That is more evidence of Thieves being overpowered.

SPvP doesn’t have a grind, you can play a thief in SPvP minutes after character creation. Do you really think those of us asking for Thieves to be nerfed haven’t played them ourselves?

I’ve been dealing with stealth in MMO PvP for well over a decade, and played a Thief extensively, ditch the condescension.

Xae.7204:

That assume the Thief is bad and stays in the refuge for more than a second or two to stack stealth.

He has to stay in the refuge for 4 seconds before he can leave, else be revealed instantly.

If he leaves before the refuge disappears, it’s a waste of a utility skill.

If he doesn’t, you’ve been given quite a bit of time to mutilate him.

You do know that the only reason to use Shadow Refuge is to stay in it so you get extended stealth right? If you leave it early you lose stealth immediately. And I am not assuming every non thief is bad. I am saying that when players have equal skill, the burst damage of thieves will be easier to avoid than it is now (players should become more aware of thieves overall), which is why nerfing them now will only make them weaker as time goes on and people get used to countering them.

Rottaran Owain.6789:

Xae.7204:

That assume the Thief is bad and stays in the refuge for more than a second or two to stack stealth.

He has to stay in the refuge for 4 seconds before he can leave, else be revealed instantly.

If he leaves before the refuge disappears, it’s a waste of a utility skill.

If he doesn’t, you’ve been given quite a bit of time to mutilate him.

You are also assuming that Shadow Refuge is the only stealth skill. He setup a strawman, don’t try to reinforce his misdirection.

Xae.7204:

Rottaran Owain.6789:

Xae.7204:

That assume the Thief is bad and stays in the refuge for more than a second or two to stack stealth.

He has to stay in the refuge for 4 seconds before he can leave, else be revealed instantly.

If he leaves before the refuge disappears, it’s a waste of a utility skill.

If he doesn’t, you’ve been given quite a bit of time to mutilate him.

You are also assuming that Shadow Refuge is the only stealth skill. He setup a strawman, don’t try to reinforce his misdirection.

It’s the only one that lasts more then 3 seconds.

Xae.7204:

Rottaran Owain.6789:

Xae.7204:

That assume the Thief is bad and stays in the refuge for more than a second or two to stack stealth.

He has to stay in the refuge for 4 seconds before he can leave, else be revealed instantly.

If he leaves before the refuge disappears, it’s a waste of a utility skill.

If he doesn’t, you’ve been given quite a bit of time to mutilate him.

You are also assuming that Shadow Refuge is the only stealth skill. He setup a strawman, don’t try to reinforce his misdirection.

Your post says “stays in the refuge”

No strawman here.

MindlessRuff.1948:

You do know that the only reason to use Shadow Refuge is to stay in it so you get extended stealth right? If you leave it early you lose stealth immediately. And I am not assuming every non thief is bad. I am saying that when players have equal skill, the burst damage of thieves will be easier to avoid than it is now (players should become more aware of thieves overall), which is why nerfing them now will only make them weaker as time goes on and people get used to countering them.

How long does it take to “get used to them”?

People cried about HB warriors, but by release, most people had learned to dodge and the complaints died down somewhat.

There isn’t much to learn when it comes to countering thieves. All you can do is spec for more toughness vitality in order to be able to eat up their burst.

Chi Malady.2015:

MindlessRuff.1948:

You do know that the only reason to use Shadow Refuge is to stay in it so you get extended stealth right? If you leave it early you lose stealth immediately. And I am not assuming every non thief is bad. I am saying that when players have equal skill, the burst damage of thieves will be easier to avoid than it is now (players should become more aware of thieves overall), which is why nerfing them now will only make them weaker as time goes on and people get used to countering them.

How long does it take to “get used to them”?

People cried about HB warriors, but by release, most people had learned to dodge and the complaints died down somewhat.

There isn’t much to learn when it comes to countering thieves. All you can do is spec for more toughness vitality in order to be able to eat up their burst.

I guess that is true in hot joins, but in 5v5s it becomes vitally important to track thieves so everyone knows when to watch out.

Rottaran Owain.6789:

Xae.7204:

Rottaran Owain.6789:

Xae.7204:

That assume the Thief is bad and stays in the refuge for more than a second or two to stack stealth.

He has to stay in the refuge for 4 seconds before he can leave, else be revealed instantly.

If he leaves before the refuge disappears, it’s a waste of a utility skill.

If he doesn’t, you’ve been given quite a bit of time to mutilate him.

You are also assuming that Shadow Refuge is the only stealth skill. He setup a strawman, don’t try to reinforce his misdirection.

Your post says “stays in the refuge”

No strawman here.

Probably because the post I was quoting talks about it.

Read, THEN post.

There’s 2 main problem I have with theives…..one is that stealth has no counter. There are no anti stealth fields, conditions don’t break it, and if you can manage to hit them while stealthed it still doesn’t break. Yea you can still hit them but don’t give me that bs that’s shooting in the dark.

Then they have spammable abilities that do things such as evade all attacks, outrageous damage, conditions, combat finisher (WOW), gap closer/homing, all in one move. So they can spam attacks like that nonstop then disappear (if target isn’t already dead)…. The other classes do not receive things like these. I see thieves that go,to ruins and don’t even move, spamming 1 move evading all attacks, but yet still doling out hefty damage to people. Where did they see this able to fit when other classes don’t have abilities like these? If my engineer evaded backwards while throwing every grenade people would go insane!

If I blow my cool downs at the wrong time in a fight there are normally heavy repercussions. A thief has these abilities where if they mess up it doesn’t matter they can just spam it till they get it right or stealth and run away (or both). There are no penalties for blowing 2 heart seekers in a row

Xae.7204:

Rottaran Owain.6789:

Xae.7204:

Rottaran Owain.6789:

Xae.7204:

That assume the Thief is bad and stays in the refuge for more than a second or two to stack stealth.

He has to stay in the refuge for 4 seconds before he can leave, else be revealed instantly.

If he leaves before the refuge disappears, it’s a waste of a utility skill.

If he doesn’t, you’ve been given quite a bit of time to mutilate him.

You are also assuming that Shadow Refuge is the only stealth skill. He setup a strawman, don’t try to reinforce his misdirection.

Your post says “stays in the refuge”

No strawman here.

Probably because the post I was quoting talks about it.

Read, THEN post.

Still not a strawman. I replied to what you posted, and exactly what you posted. If you don’t want people to talk about shadow refuge, then don’t talk about it.