Guild Wars 2

Read the above..End of story,I dont even have anything else too add.Being able to be in a constant evade spamming window while being able to port around,stealth and blind spamm on top of it is just a plain bad gaming design.

Oh god this again.

1. If he’s evade spamming, he’s probably playing S/D acrobatics.

2. If he’s playing S/D, he won’t be stealth/blind spamming unless he’s running shadow arts as well.

3. If he’s playing shadow arts + acrobatics S/D and you lost to him, you’re bad.

OP clearly doesn’t know how to fight or play thieves and is a forum hero.

Rubik.7192:

Oh god this again.

1. If he’s evade spamming, he’s probably playing S/D acrobatics.

2. If he’s playing S/D, he won’t be stealth/blind spamming unless he’s running shadow arts as well.

3. If he’s playing shadow arts + acrobatics S/D and you lost to him, you’re bad.

OP clearly doesn’t know how to fight or play thieves and is a forum hero.

This pretty much.

Rubik.7192:

Oh god this again.

1. If he’s evade spamming, he’s probably playing S/D acrobatics.

2. If he’s playing S/D, he won’t be stealth/blind spamming unless he’s running shadow arts as well.

3. If he’s playing shadow arts + acrobatics S/D and you lost to him, you’re bad.

OP clearly doesn’t know how to fight or play thieves and is a forum hero.

Stop making conclusion based on a post about the thieves evade spamming window,wich is a fact.I know how to pvp,i know how to 1on1..thats not the issue.I know thieves that can acknowledge this fact,and they all know their stuff.The evade window is out of control,being able to spamm blind,port,and stealth while constantly evading around vs a Double Melee non condi user,you will not get a hit in between unless you start running a cheesecake build aswell.

Edit: Also ,did you ever see me say Anywhere that im unable to beat them at all ? I didn’t,and if you think i did,then you obviously have trouble reading.

As a warriior thieves should be free kills. l2p issue like always. Alot of evades I guess he was S/D, just spam combustive shot, he should be down to 50% just from burning.

Dont use a sub par build then. If I go pvp naked and get owned im not gonna cry for nerfs. Melee only warrior is crap.

Use longbow+ axe/GS/hammer

Rubik.7192:

Oh god this again.

1. If he’s evade spamming, he’s probably playing S/D acrobatics.

2. If he’s playing S/D, he won’t be stealth/blind spamming unless he’s running shadow arts as well.

3. If he’s playing shadow arts + acrobatics S/D and you lost to him, you’re bad.

OP clearly doesn’t know how to fight or play thieves and is a forum hero.

There is always this guy to every thread. The guy that completely misses the entire point being made and makes it a L2P issue.

anet- “Evades are a very important part of the game. Hence why we’ve reduce vigor traits.”

Your first reply- “If he’s evade spamming…”

See what I just did there?..highlighted what is acknowledged by the game creator as a very important aspect, where they have also acknowledged they have reduced it so it plays an even greater vital mechanic can be ‘spammed’ by a profession. Just so this is clear, you’ve basically highlighted thieve’s ability to spam what was intended not be spammed. Thanks for proving the OP point.

a t s e.9614:

Dont use a sub par build then. If I go pvp naked and get owned im not gonna cry for nerfs. Melee only warrior is crap.

Use longbow+ axe/GS/hammer

It’s not a sup-par build.Also why should i be forced to go bow ? Ive had my fun with that months ago,im tired of running the same crap as anyone else is currently running.You got 99% warrs running with bow,thats not my thing.Also..i Can beat them with my current build…Its not the point im trying to make.
And Double melee warr is anything but crap.I can faceroll most hambow users out there.But thats not what this post is about..Its about the insane amounts of evading they have ontop of them being able to port around,blind spam,and still able to stealth away on top of it.

hey, them thieves dun have heavy armor and highest health pool like us warriors, it is only fair to give them decent amount of evades to make up for that.

i’m okay with that.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

hey, them thieves dun have heavy armor and highest health pool like us warriors, it is only fair to give them decent amount of evades to make up for that.

i’m okay with that.

“Decent” amount of evades,sure i’m fine with that aswell.But currently its not decent,its way over the top.

Caedmon.6798:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

hey, them thieves dun have heavy armor and highest health pool like us warriors, it is only fair to give them decent amount of evades to make up for that.

i’m okay with that.

“Decent” amount of evades,sure i’m fine with that aswell.But currently its not decent,its way over the top.

but they only have 12 initiative right?
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Initiative

or 15 via Preparedness minor master trait.

“Initiative will replenish naturally at one point every second.”
i thought the amount is decent enough? O_O

S/D thief is one of the least interactive specs in the game, for the thief at least. Playing s/d acrobatics thief is mostly like playing a single player game of maximizing evade frames, managing your initiative, and disengaging when low on initiative while quickly whittling down your opponent with crits. and air/fire procs (especially these procs).

Watch Sizer play, for instance. Most of his evade skills are NOT used reactively. Instead, they are just chained together to maximize evasion uptime while he still does damage to his opponent. This is not skillful in the sense of play:counterplay between two people. This kind of gameplay is skillful in the mechanical single-player perspective of managing resources. Also, it puts the burden of skill entirely on the opponent to learn the very small windows during which they aren’t evading.

I would love them to make s/d thief much more skillful, like d/p thief, which actually has to time its skills and react to its opponents actions.

Get rid of the single-player specs.

Shortbow : 1 wpn skill un nerfed /unchanged / unaltered (shadow shot #5)
sword and dagger: 1 wpn skill un nerfed / unchanged / unaltered. (autoattack #1)

i could go on, but you should have the point by now, Its people like you who have reduced this class to spam. continue to alt tab + post anti thieve threads, its worked wonders for the last 2 years. why stop now?

BlackBeard.2873:

S/D thief is one of the least interactive specs in the game, for the thief at least. Playing s/d acrobatics thief is mostly like playing a single player game of maximizing evade frames, managing your initiative, and disengaging when low on initiative while quickly whittling down your opponent with crits. and air/fire procs (especially these procs).

Watch Sizer play, for instance. Most of his evade skills are NOT used reactively. Instead, they are just chained together to maximize evasion uptime while he still does damage to his opponent. This is not skillful in the sense of play:counterplay between two people. This kind of gameplay is skillful in the mechanical single-player perspective of managing resources. Also, it puts the burden of skill entirely on the opponent to learn the very small windows during which they aren’t evading.

I would love them to make s/d thief much more skillful, like d/p thief, which actually has to time its skills and react to its opponents actions.

Get rid of the single-player specs.

And something that is called Healing signet is skilfull? If you wanna make the game skill based, we need to redisign AI builds and warriors.

a t s e.9614:

BlackBeard.2873:

S/D thief is one of the least interactive specs in the game, for the thief at least. Playing s/d acrobatics thief is mostly like playing a single player game of maximizing evade frames, managing your initiative, and disengaging when low on initiative while quickly whittling down your opponent with crits. and air/fire procs (especially these procs).

Watch Sizer play, for instance. Most of his evade skills are NOT used reactively. Instead, they are just chained together to maximize evasion uptime while he still does damage to his opponent. This is not skillful in the sense of play:counterplay between two people. This kind of gameplay is skillful in the mechanical single-player perspective of managing resources. Also, it puts the burden of skill entirely on the opponent to learn the very small windows during which they aren’t evading.

I would love them to make s/d thief much more skillful, like d/p thief, which actually has to time its skills and react to its opponents actions.

Get rid of the single-player specs.

And something that is called Healing signet is skilfull? If you wanna make the game skill based, we need to redisign AI builds and warriors.

I don’t even know what you are talking about. This is a topic about S/D Thieves. Sure, AI builds are a little too rewarding for their risk/skill, and hambow is kinda crazy with strength runes, but those points are off topic. Why don’t you say something about why you think S/D is either in a good spot or should be changed in some way?

Thief evades are fine, it just takes getting used to their moments. They do have a tendency of making me waste my burst though.

Caedmon.6798:

Read the above..End of story,I dont even have anything else too add.Being able to be in a constant evade spamming window while being able to port around,stealth and blind spamm on top of it is just a plain bad gaming design.

What does the thief accomplish? He wastes his initiative and kills nothing. All he is doing is creating one long evade; this isn’t a problem, it’s more a learn to play issue. He’s kiting, don’t be stupid and follow him.

S/D too many evades
D/P too much blind
S/P too much pistol whip
Guess they should just delete us thieves since people can’t play.

Caedmon.6798:

hihey.1075:

L2p. That’s all my advice.

It’s not a l2p issue,again..I did not say im unable to beat them.Its about this being a terrible game design,Porting,stealthing,continously evading with the use of skills + their own dodges + using a energy sigil on top of it is what makes them go complete kitten.

Is this one of those 6/6/6/6/6 builds?
s/d thieves cannot endlessly evade and dodge (and if they’re doing that, they’re not doing a lot of damage). Their evade skill that does a lot of damage is actually the 2nd part of that chain, so watch for that skill to dodge. You just have to watch for their timed movements. They are effective because most people see a thief, and instantly burn all their CD’s (while they use a couple evades). This is why they can then easily kill people. They freak out and panic when they see a thief. Just use your AoE, and save your CDs and time them.

The thief evade builds are pretty lame. Not the worst mind you but it doesn’t require skill.

Basically you are fighting yourself to keep up the highest amount of invuln time. Then disengaging when low on init.

People like to praise certain players but 90% of people do not know what TRULY requiresskill on a thief

Good example of how amazingly sad complaints can get.

Rubik.7192:

Oh god this again.

1. If he’s evade spamming, he’s probably playing S/D acrobatics.

2. If he’s playing S/D, he won’t be stealth/blind spamming unless he’s running shadow arts as well.

3. If he’s playing shadow arts + acrobatics S/D and you lost to him, you’re bad.

OP clearly doesn’t know how to fight or play thieves and is a forum hero.

1. Disabling shot. Withdraw. Death Blossom. But mostly: DISABLING SHOT.

2. Totally right. Except for the 15-20 seconds of stealth provided from Shadow refuge.

3. Of course, but remember that there is not a single chance to win either. I can prolong a fight as much as I want, as an Acrobatics+Shadow Arts thief.

I actually think that thief would be perfectly balanced IF Anet nerfed “Feline Grace”. That’s what makes the thief evades annoying as hell: I stopped playing thief because it’s just too easy. To get a real challenge you must go in those 1v1 servers and still there’s no point in them, because in the TPVP nobody runs a 1v1 build EXCEPT for thieves.

Frenk.5917:

Rubik.7192:

Oh god this again.

1. If he’s evade spamming, he’s probably playing S/D acrobatics.

2. If he’s playing S/D, he won’t be stealth/blind spamming unless he’s running shadow arts as well.

3. If he’s playing shadow arts + acrobatics S/D and you lost to him, you’re bad.

OP clearly doesn’t know how to fight or play thieves and is a forum hero.

1. Disabling shot. Withdraw. Death Blossom. But mostly: DISABLING SHOT.

2. Totally right. Except for the 15-20 seconds of stealth provided from Shadow refuge.

3. Of course, but remember that there is not a single chance to win either. I can prolong a fight as much as I want, as an Acrobatics+Shadow Arts thief.

I actually think that thief would be perfectly balanced IF Anet nerfed “Feline Grace”. That’s what makes the thief evades annoying as hell: I stopped playing thief because it’s just too easy. To get a real challenge you must go in those 1v1 servers and still there’s no point in them, because in the TPVP nobody runs a 1v1 build EXCEPT for thieves.

1. Disabling shot got nerfed. It was pretty silly before but now it’s pretty tamed.

2. That’s one stealth skill. Wow, much spam.

3. Prolong the fight with shadow arts+acro will lead to the enemy capping the point. This is why shadow arts doesn’t exist in tpvp.

Unless the thief is running 6/6/6/6/6, I don’t see how “blind and stealth spam” is possible along with evade spam in a viable tpvp build.

Maybe in whatever low percentile tier OP is in people may have trouble with countering thieves running acro shadowarts SUPER OP build.

People don’t complain about thieves because they’re OP they make up excuses for things they think they don’t like when infact the only problem is that thieves are not fun to fight.
Thieves aren’t OP and don’t need nerfs. People just don’t know how to grasp the fact that there are very few things wrong (few, not none) with the profession itself other than that fighting a thief is in no way shape or form, fun. It’s annoying and it’s frustrating and losing to one makes you want to conclude that they are somehow OP and need to be fixed.
If you’re saying L2P, in some cases you’re right, but in most cases, you play a Thief and don’t want to admit that it’s easy to play and irritating to play against. People play games to have fun not to be aggravated by that mosquito that keeps flying by your ear at night and you can’t seem to kill.

question, can the thief bunker a point with this evade thingie?

Do i still have to add that this isnt about one particular gamemode ? This also isnt about being able to “bunker a point” Deimos…..Hotjoin/sq/tq /wvw it shouldn’t matter,this is about the evade spamm build in general when seeing it from an 1on1 perspective.Also mind you that other classes do have skills that go on cd eventually.

@Handin..again this is speaking as a double melee,meaning no condi’s,no heavy aoe’s except earthshake wich he will evade 90% of the time.If their evade chain is off,he can port back with bow,kite around untill he can stab you again and continue to evade chain.Its a rinse repeat,if theyre up in your face,you get stunned ( Yes stabi goes on cd at one point ) ,blind and an evade chain…if their out of initivative they can simply port back and kite,and without a mobility build or a bow,you will have a hard time trying to land a hit in there at al,also they do plenty of dmg to be able to bring you down fast enough.
I honestly think it’s just terrible game design,being able to be in an evade chain ,of 6 – 8x in a row while dealing dmg is bad enough,add in those ports and blinds and it can become gamebreaking.

While I can beat these types of Thieves with Skullcracker (bring the fight to where they used Infi Strike) It CAN be very hard to see where the evade animation ends depending on the race. Some look like they are winding down but are still actually evading and it can seriously throw you off.

I also agree with what Frenk that compared to other Thief builds out there it is REALLY easy. It also got both an indirect nerf and buff with the changes to Lyssa runes. The boon stealing was much less threatening when you could hide your stability and might behind boons you don’t care about losing. Sure, the Thief can’t get that huge advantage from those runes anymore now either but I would still call it a buff overall in that regard.

He’s also right about duel servers, I quit going to them because around 3/4ths the server would be Thieves. They are a really boring class to duel and tend to drag things out unnecessarily.

Some1 faced the almighty 30/30/30/30/30 build, srsly the amount of misinformation is ridiculous.
evade/blind/stealth/port spam in 1 build is impossible.

you get evade/port on s/d. the only blind in this build is infiltrator arrow on sb, not spamable. the only stealth is either from thief steal or sr, aka. 3s/20s (if running acro/tric) if there’s another tbief around 24/7 plus refuge.

evade/blind/port is s/p, even tough they cant spam blind/evade at the same time otherwise they’re out of initiative almsost instantly. Pistolwhip got a huge aftercast just kill him. The only difference at getting stealth compared to s/d is, that they can blast finish their blind field with clusterbomb.

blind/stealth is for d/p. no evades only few ports, incredibly squishy. dont get caught in a bad spot and kill them.

a t s e.9614:

Dont use a sub par build then. If I go pvp naked and get owned im not gonna cry for nerfs. Melee only warrior is crap.

Use longbow+ axe/GS/hammer

Seriously? You want to defend something that is OP by saying “play the meta”?

So everyone who runs something else than meta can kitten off, that’s what you’re saying? I say, kitten you, kitten.

josh.7390:

Some1 faced the almighty 30/30/30/30/30 build, srsly the amount of misinformation is ridiculous.
evade/blind/stealth/port spam in 1 build is impossible.

you get evade/port on s/d. the only blind in this build is infiltrator arrow on sb, not spamable. the only stealth is either from thief steal or sr, aka. 3s/20s (if running acro/tric) if there’s another tbief around 24/7 plus refuge.

evade/blind/port is s/p, even tough they cant spam blind/evade at the same time otherwise they’re out of initiative almsost instantly. Pistolwhip got a huge aftercast just kill him. The only difference at getting stealth compared to s/d is, that they can blast finish their blind field with clusterbomb.

blind/stealth is for d/p. no evades only few ports, incredibly squishy. dont get caught in a bad spot and kill them.

I never said they can “stealth spam” with this build though.

This is the history lesson.
This is the video that started the debate on spamming evade.

The skills used in this video are still intact and unaltered.
The 2 opponents are ransacker rank and gladiator respectively. Both are warriors when they were in their prime buffed stage.

That lead to quasi builds such as this.( http://intothemists.com/guides/479-wvw_super_troll_thief_ii) Read the description and then look at the skill rotation. It is all evade based skills, or just up front evading rinse-repeated over and over again. It was builds like this that eventually lead to vigor reductions, but not reductions in skills that inherently also apply evasion while being used.

As a thief player I have agreed with many that all thief builds ultimately come down to them using the same mechanic regardless of build. That is stealth/evade. This is what limits thief in terms of diversity. They have no sustain, nor can they afford to live without stealth. I have also felt there should be more to their steal and it should be more in line with mesmer shatters. That steal can perform different functions. You refer to acrobats based builds, but as the above video portrays, al evason spamming was done through skills, not trait trees. That means that unusually high up time on spamming evades is entirely possible without having to go grand master into acrobats.

Thank you so much for finding that vid,this is Exactly what i meant with my post.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

This is the history lesson.
This is the video that started the debate on spamming evade.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qehdmw1xRjo

The skills used in this video are still intact and unaltered.
The 2 opponents are ransacker rank and gladiator respectively. Both are warriors when they were in their prime buffed stage.

That lead to quasi builds such as this.( http://intothemists.com/guides/479-wvw_super_troll_thief_ii) Read the description and then look at the skill rotation. It is all evade based skills, or just up front evading rinse-repeated over and over again. It was builds like this that eventually lead to vigor reductions, but not reductions in skills that inherently also apply evasion while being used.

As a thief player I have agreed with many that all thief builds ultimately come down to them using the same mechanic regardless of build. That is stealth/evade. This is what limits thief in terms of diversity. They have no sustain, nor can they afford to live without stealth. I have also felt there should be more to their steal and it should be more in line with mesmer shatters. That steal can perform different functions. You refer to acrobats based builds, but as the above video portrays, al evason spamming was done through skills, not trait trees. That means that unusually high up time on spamming evades is entirely possible without having to go grand master into acrobats.

Funny video. What’s the lesson though, is this supposed to be impressive? A guy who takes forever to win a 2v1 while he’s almost dead the entire time? And then fails when he tries again? Also, he chose the perfect opponents for making evades more effective.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

-snip-

It’s a shame, I don’t hate the rogue/thief archetype but I dislike how it’s done in this game. I would totally play one if there was a way to play like a sort of bruiser with no stealth but instead a focus on blocks and parrying with just a bit of evade thrown in, but not WHOLE PLAYSTYLE being about evades.

I don’t know how you would change the class without a partial or total redesign. The initiative system sound cool in theory, no cooldowns but you have to manage your skill useage carefully, but that’s not how it plays out in reality. Assassins in GW1 had an attack chaining mechanic that is sort of like what we have today but at the same time not really. Maybe there would be a way to add something like this to the mix. Of course the problem is that in GW1 you could a string of 7 attack skills and little to no utility which isn’t a thing in GW2. Perhaps lessen the damage of certain attacks but have them deal more damage/additional effects if a certain prerequisite is met? Sadly, I don’t see the class changing in any significant way that would make me want to pick it up again.

Think how op thief would be if some average or better players would play thief. He would be totally unkillable and would win 3 vs 1 against much better players.

Disabling Shot (Shortbow):
Reduced the length of this skill’s evasion component from 100% of the skill’s duration to 64% of the skill’s duration—an overall reduction of .3 seconds.

Caedmon.6798:

a t s e.9614:

Dont use a sub par build then. If I go pvp naked and get owned im not gonna cry for nerfs. Melee only warrior is crap.

Use longbow+ axe/GS/hammer

It’s not a sup-par build.Also why should i be forced to go bow ? Ive had my fun with that months ago,im tired of running the same crap as anyone else is currently running.You got 99% warrs running with bow,thats not my thing.Also..i Can beat them with my current build…Its not the point im trying to make.
And Double melee warr is anything but crap.I can faceroll most hambow users out there.But thats not what this post is about..Its about the insane amounts of evading they have ontop of them being able to port around,blind spam,and still able to stealth away on top of it.

Welcome to Spvp your forced into running certain weapons because others just don’t add up the same. Why do you think thieves use s/d and shortbow. Because they cant live for kitten with out the sheer amount of evades. Most thieves in Spvp don’t even use stealth that much compared to thieves in WvW, not including d/p thieves.

Hello,

Since we are receiving a lot of feedback about this topic, we are gathering it in a dedicated thread. You are very welcome to repost your question, comments and concerns in this discussion.

Thank you for your understanding.