Guild Wars 2

I’ve been playing a bunker engineer build in sPvP for the past month or so and I never got all the complaints about thieves. Sure, I lost to a few good ones, but for the most part they weren’t a problem. I just decided to run a high damage build and, oh boy, I get what the issue is. I was running a bit of a glass cannon build (2300 armor) but I still had 24k health. It didn’t matter. Steal, C&D, backstab, and two heartseekers is all it took. Probably about 2.5 seconds and I was gibbed. Happened to me twice in two minutes by two different thieves.

The problem is that because they have stealth, you have no chance. The combo is over before you even realize what has happened. Thieves may need a buff against bunkers, but against other glass cannons they are way too powerful. I’d vote for giving them more defensive abilities whilst taking away some of the offense because, after those encounters, I’m never running anything but a bunker ever again.

Twenynge.8520:

because, after those encounters, I’m never running anything but a bunker ever again.

^
:)

And this is a major reason why the current meta is bunkerific.
Bunker Guard
Bunker Ele
Bunker Engi
Mesmer because it owns
dealers choice for 5th

Thing is though, if a single thief can take out a bunker by themselves, what would be the point of bringing any other class or even bunkering down?

I get that the Devs said bunkering might be too good right now, but if they were less effective than burst specs, tournaments would become really zergy. If thieves are also the only competitive spec that can take out bunkers in a reasonable amount of time you’ll also see them be overplayed in tournaments, not just hotjoined.

“We’re hella glass and gamble everything on the backstab!” But why do you expect to kill EVERYTHING even if they completely invest on the defense side of spectrum? That doesn’t sound “balanced” at all..

What Anet doesn’t seem to get is that bunkers are a symptom of a problem, not the problem itself.

Any non-thief non-bunker may as well run around naked in spvp. If you aren’t speccing for bunker, it’ll take the same amount of time to kill you with or without armor.

There’s no point to going for a balanced build, because when a 1-2 skill combo can do 12-18k damage, everything that isn’t bunker is glass cannon.

There’s nothing wrong with this model per se, but unless you’re one of the 3 bunker classes or a thief/mesmer, you’re pretty sol.

Anyone who has a defensive utility skill is a bunker.

True story.

PotatoOverdose.6583:

Rottaran Owain.6789:

Anyone (of 3 classes) who has all defensive utility skills is a bunker.

True story.

Fixed that for ya.

Yep, only 3 classes have stunbreakers, evasion, immunity to damage, protection, aegis, or any other way to mitigate damage.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Rottaran Owain.6789:

PotatoOverdose.6583:

Rottaran Owain.6789:

Anyone (of 3 classes) who has all defensive utility skills is a bunker.

True story.

Fixed that for ya.

Yep, only 3 classes have stunbreakers, evasion, immunity to damage, protection, aegis, or any other way to mitigate damage.

Thanks for clearing that up.

All classes you say? Find me a viable ranger bunker build used in high level tpvp and scrimms, and link a video.

I’ll wait.

Rottaran Owain.6789:

Anyone who has a defensive utility skill is a bunker.

True story.

I make a full power/crit Ele with beserker amulet and scholar runes. 12k health and 1800 armour. But I have mist form so I bunker side point np

/sarcasm

PotatoOverdose.6583:

Rottaran Owain.6789:

PotatoOverdose.6583:

Rottaran Owain.6789:

Anyone (of 3 classes) who has all defensive utility skills is a bunker.

True story.

Fixed that for ya.

Yep, only 3 classes have stunbreakers, evasion, immunity to damage, protection, aegis, or any other way to mitigate damage.

Thanks for clearing that up.

All classes you say? Find me a viable ranger bunker build used in high level tpvp and scrimms, and link a video.

I’ll wait.

What are you talking about? All I said was that any class can mitigate the typical backstab build. Heck, ranger has more than half a dozen off the top of my head.

You don’t need to be a bunker to deal with burst thieves.

Rottaran Owain.6789:

Anyone who has a defensive utility skill is a bunker.

True story.

^That’s what I’m talking about.

Still waiting for that ranger bunker build video btw.

Well, considering I still see no claims of all classes having viable bunker builds in my post. No, I’m not going to waste my time looking for that video.

What I do see in said post, however, is me making a joke of how the OP thinks you need to be a bunker to deal with thieves.

Rottaran Owain.6789:

Anyone who has a defensive utility skill is a bunker.

True story.

Bolded the important part. Anyone can be any class. Scary, I know.

Edit: And the op didnt say you have to be a bunker to beat a thief. Just like you don’t have to chew your food before you swallow. But it does make it a lot easier.

I’m sorry that after 2 posts explaining this, you still can’t figure out that my post was heavy in sarcasm. A single defensive utility or trait to shut down the wide range of highdamagewhileyou’restunned combos that exist in this game isn’t something that alone turns you into a bunker.

Also, after re-reading, I guess the OP didn’t say that, but the replies afterwards certainly implied it.

Rottaran Owain.6789:

I’m sorry that after 2 posts explaining this, you still can’t figure out that my post was heavy in sarcasm. A single defensive utility or trait to shut down the wide range of highdamagewhileyou’restunned combos that exist in this game isn’t something that alone turns you into a bunker.

Also, after re-reading, I guess the OP didn’t say that, but the replies afterwards certainly implied it.

Oh, i got your sarcasm. But as we’ve just established, it was misplaced, since no one in this thread said you must be a bunker to beat a thief. It was only implied that it made it much easier.

PotatoOverdose.6583:

Oh, i got your sarcasm. But as we’ve just established, it was misplaced, since no one in this thread said you must be a bunker to beat a thief. It was only implied that it made it much easier.

Braxxus.2904:

Twenynge.8520:

because, after those encounters, I’m never running anything but a bunker ever again.

^
:)

And this is a major reason why the current meta is bunkerific.
Bunker Guard
Bunker Ele
Bunker Engi
Mesmer because it owns
dealers choice for 5th

Do I really need to say anything?

Fine, I’ll paraphrase:

“The entire meta is bunkerific because of backstab thieves.”

Rottaran Owain.6789:

PotatoOverdose.6583:

Oh, i got your sarcasm. But as we’ve just established, it was misplaced, since no one in this thread said you must be a bunker to beat a thief. It was only implied that it made it much easier.

Braxxus.2904:

Twenynge.8520:

because, after those encounters, I’m never running anything but a bunker ever again.

^
:)

And this is a major reason why the current meta is bunkerific.
Bunker Guard
Bunker Ele
Bunker Engi
Mesmer because it owns
dealers choice for 5th

Do I really need to say anything?

Fine, I’ll paraphrase:

“The entire meta is bunkerific because of backstab thieves.”

Sure, but no one said you need to be a bunker to beat a thief. Your defending against a criticism no one leveled.The only thing people implied was bunkers make dealing with thieves easier. And they do.

And the entire meta is bunkerific because of high burst, mostly from thieves. Look at videos from team paradigm, team curse, or any other high level team. Typically layout is 2 bunkers (dealers choice whether they’re guard,engi, or eli), 2 burst (usually thieves, sometimes mesmer), and one additional burst or bunker. That’s the layout (almost) everyone is running with minor variation.

And I’m not saying this is good or bad, I’m just saying that this is what the meta is right now.

Endure Pain and 8k Whirlwind Attacks says hi.

Rottaran Owain.6789:

PotatoOverdose.6583:

Rottaran Owain.6789:

PotatoOverdose.6583:

Oh, i got your sarcasm. But as we’ve just established, it was misplaced, since no one in this thread said you must be a bunker to beat a thief. It was only implied that it made it much easier.

Braxxus.2904:

Twenynge.8520:

because, after those encounters, I’m never running anything but a bunker ever again.

^
:)

And this is a major reason why the current meta is bunkerific.
Bunker Guard
Bunker Ele
Bunker Engi
Mesmer because it owns
dealers choice for 5th

Do I really need to say anything?

Fine, I’ll paraphrase:

“The entire meta is bunkerific because of backstab thieves.”

Sure, but no one said you need to be a bunker to beat a thief. Your defending against a criticism no one leveled.The only think people implied was bunkers make dealing with thieves easier. And they do.

And the entire meta is bunkerific because of high burst, mostly from thieves. Look at videos from team paradigm, team curse, or any other high level team. Typically layout is 2 bunkers (dealers choice whether they’re guard,engi, or eli), 2 burst (usually thieves, sometimes mesmer), and one additional burst or bunker. That’s the layout (almost) everyone is running with minor variation.

And I’m not saying this is good or bad, I’m just saying that this is what the meta is right now.

Logical fallacy here. If they don’t need to be a bunker to beat them, they’d be focusing on other things for their builds that they do actually do need to focus their build on to beat.

Logical fallacy here. If something is annoying, like 2 skill combos potentially doing 18k damage, people may run builds that make dealing with that annoyance easier. Especially when this annoyance can cause you a match.

Rottaran Owain.6789:

The real reason why bunkers are so prevalent is because the game REVOLVES AROUND HOLDING POSITIONS FOR AS LONG AS POSSIBLE.

Someone who can hold a point for a long time is at a natural advantage to someone who can’t, because the longer you last:

A) The longer you hold the point for your team
B) The more time your teammates have to come and assist you

But we wouldn’t need to go full bunker to hold a point longer if there was less incoming damage. Your kinda proving my point here.

If thief damage (and excessive burst in general) was reduced, people would take more offensive skills for their node-control builds leading to more balanced builds resulting in fewer ‘bunkers’.

PotatoOverdose.6583:

Rottaran Owain.6789:

PotatoOverdose.6583:

Rottaran Owain.6789:

PotatoOverdose.6583:

Oh, i got your sarcasm. But as we’ve just established, it was misplaced, since no one in this thread said you must be a bunker to beat a thief. It was only implied that it made it much easier.

Braxxus.2904:

Twenynge.8520:

because, after those encounters, I’m never running anything but a bunker ever again.

^
:)

And this is a major reason why the current meta is bunkerific.
Bunker Guard
Bunker Ele
Bunker Engi
Mesmer because it owns
dealers choice for 5th

Do I really need to say anything?

Fine, I’ll paraphrase:

“The entire meta is bunkerific because of backstab thieves.”

Sure, but no one said you need to be a bunker to beat a thief. Your defending against a criticism no one leveled.The only think people implied was bunkers make dealing with thieves easier. And they do.

And the entire meta is bunkerific because of high burst, mostly from thieves. Look at videos from team paradigm, team curse, or any other high level team. Typically layout is 2 bunkers (dealers choice whether they’re guard,engi, or eli), 2 burst (usually thieves, sometimes mesmer), and one additional burst or bunker. That’s the layout (almost) everyone is running with minor variation.

And I’m not saying this is good or bad, I’m just saying that this is what the meta is right now.

Logical fallacy here. If they don’t need to be a bunker to beat them, they’d be focusing on other things for their builds that they do actually do need to focus their build on to beat.

Logical fallacy here. If something is annoying, like 2 skill combos potentially doing 18k damage, people may run builds that make dealing with that annoyance easier. Especially when this annoyance can cause you a match.

But we wouldn’t need to go full bunker to hold a point longer if there was less incoming damage. Your kinda proving my point here.

If thief damage (and excessive burst in general) was reduced, people would take more offensive skills for their node-control builds leading to more balanced builds resulting in fewer ‘bunkers’.

First off, best, and most reliable way to deal with backstab thieves is not to let them take the backstab, and tank it. This is useless in a fight with multiple opponents. It’s still easy enough that any player with a decent reaction time can do it consistently, so the difficulty point is moot. Pressing one key is harder than zero, but it still isn’t hard.

Second, less incoming damage doesn’t just refer to backstab thieves, it refers to everything. You nerf backstab thieves, and guess what? The metagame still revolves around standing on a point for as long as possible. Only difference is that there’s one less non-bunker build that’s viable.

Rottaran Owain.6789:

PotatoOverdose.6583:

Rottaran Owain.6789:

PotatoOverdose.6583:

Rottaran Owain.6789:

PotatoOverdose.6583:

Oh, i got your sarcasm. But as we’ve just established, it was misplaced, since no one in this thread said you must be a bunker to beat a thief. It was only implied that it made it much easier.

Braxxus.2904:

Twenynge.8520:

because, after those encounters, I’m never running anything but a bunker ever again.

^
:)

And this is a major reason why the current meta is bunkerific.
Bunker Guard
Bunker Ele
Bunker Engi
Mesmer because it owns
dealers choice for 5th

Do I really need to say anything?

Fine, I’ll paraphrase:

“The entire meta is bunkerific because of backstab thieves.”

Sure, but no one said you need to be a bunker to beat a thief. Your defending against a criticism no one leveled.The only think people implied was bunkers make dealing with thieves easier. And they do.

And the entire meta is bunkerific because of high burst, mostly from thieves. Look at videos from team paradigm, team curse, or any other high level team. Typically layout is 2 bunkers (dealers choice whether they’re guard,engi, or eli), 2 burst (usually thieves, sometimes mesmer), and one additional burst or bunker. That’s the layout (almost) everyone is running with minor variation.

And I’m not saying this is good or bad, I’m just saying that this is what the meta is right now.

Logical fallacy here. If they don’t need to be a bunker to beat them, they’d be focusing on other things for their builds that they do actually do need to focus their build on to beat.

Logical fallacy here. If something is annoying, like 2 skill combos potentially doing 18k damage, people may run builds that make dealing with that annoyance easier. Especially when this annoyance can cause you a match.

But we wouldn’t need to go full bunker to hold a point longer if there was less incoming damage. Your kinda proving my point here.

If thief damage (and excessive burst in general) was reduced, people would take more offensive skills for their node-control builds leading to more balanced builds resulting in fewer ‘bunkers’.

First off, best, and most reliable way to deal with backstab thieves is not to let them take the backstab, and tank it. This is useless in a fight with multiple opponents. It’s still easy enough that any player with a decent reaction time can do it consistently, so the difficulty point is moot. Pressing one key is harder than zero, but it still isn’t hard.

Second, less incoming damage doesn’t just refer to backstab thieves, it refers to everything. You nerf backstab thieves, and guess what? The metagame still revolves around standing on a point for as long as possible. Only difference is that there’s one less non-bunker build that’s viable.

I said excessive damage. 18k max on one skill is excessive compared to everything else out there. Hell, most classes start with less than 16k base health.

It’s cool though. Assassins when they were released were the same way in Gw1. And they got nerfed often and hard over the subsequent patches and expansions until they reached a balanced state. It looks like they’re following the same model here, more or less, so time will fix this “issue”.

It’s not one skill. It’s an elite, steal, cloak and dagger (half their initiative), and at least one utility, usually more. We’re not talking about one ability, but the combination of several.

And again, fixing this “issue” won’t do a thing about bunker builds. Conquest is heavily biased in favour of bunkers in its core design. It won’t matter how you tweak the stats when the concept is broken.

If they lower the burst damage across all classes , we can ask the Devs to lower the Vit-Toughness of the Soldier Amulet by 150 or even other amulets that are a <<must >> for the tanky specs :P

Nerfing burst damage won’t reduce the bunker meta, not by a long shot. Don’t know why people would stop playing something so effective after it receives an indirect buff. There’s a problem on both ends of the spectrum here.

Though, IMO thieves aren’t that bad.

Fixing the backstab 2sec gib issues are as easy as this….

When you press steal it cancels C&D

its that easy

However 75% of good players are now reliably countering this combo move all the time every time

The moves themselves are actually really balanced, its the reaction time to counter that makes it hard for players to grasp and scream OP (Mouse Clickers). The 18K backstabs are a result of the signets stacking might for 5 seconds on top of the assassins 15% signet. However if you cut away the Steal/Instant C&D combo, they would have to work very hard to land the back stab before the 5sec buff expired, making the buff useless and not worth taking due to the difficulty factor.

The reaction time to counter would also be very easy, for even unskilled players, to easy for a build that put all its eggs into one crit (Which is also conditional to being behind the player)

I run a backstab thief – Balance is in a funny place.

Good/Elite players are fine
Bads are seriously unhappy

Im currently loosing to most bunkers in the meta. Any more Nerfs puts all the bunkers in the lead. And thats for a glass cannon thief speccing in a very certain one sided way

There are some serious issues with balance and fixes are nowhere near fast enough. I love the game because of the fast action play, but the bad balance drives me away a little more every time I play.

Playing anything but theif against the theif/bunker meta is like bringing a fistfull of pebbles to a gunfight. Its not impossible to come out on top, its just bloody unlikely is all.