Guild Wars 2

Slim.3024:

you can not possibly try to sell the fact that he dodged 4 steals in that fight as knowing when to dodge. […]That was pure luck

Those dodges wern’t luck. He knew that most thieves use Blackpowder => Steal+heartseeker. That’s very predictable. When he could, he also put a tremendous amount of pressure on the thief ether through ranged aoe or skills which overload blind right when he saw the blackpowder go down. In response, caed timed his backstab right when tarcis finished his whirlwind attack as tarcis has limited control over his character when he’s whirlwinding. There is a reason why tarcis put the annotation that he did in the bottom of the vid.

Slim.3024:

Trickery thieves are 80% steal and 20% the rest. If you miss 1, it’s bad, if you miss 4, you are absolutely done.

Exactly. In the first fight, caed got completely outplayed. Watch the full video and you’ll see that the fights were pretty even.

Those dodges wern’t luck. He knew that most thieves use Blackpowder => Steal+heartseeker.

Caed doesn’t even use heartskeer with steal out of a black powder. Caed usually uses blackpowder with steal to put the smoke field on the target and heartseeker out of it when needed or he uses steal out of stealth, so your argument is invalid.

Slim.3024:

Caed doesn’t even use heartskeer with steal out of a black powder.

If he does that too many times against a greatsword warrior, he dies. Greatsword has too many options to overload those blinds.

Go ahead and watch the full vid. He’s not doing what your saying he’s doing.

Which is why those fights were close. Greatsword and Longbow are great against thieves and blinds, especially with bull’s charge and Frenzy. there is a reason why warriors don’t use that build anymore, however.

And the dodges and whirlwinds on steals that come out of stealth are still not “skilled play”. That warrior plays with energy runes and building momentum and was basically spamming dodges even when not necessary (which is fine, I am not saying he didn’t play well).

Add whirlwind into the mix and you have a lot of evades and they happened to sometimes protect him from 4 steals back to back like in the first fight and sometimes he would get hit by all of them. Same player, same evasion, yet somehow he evades every steal and others he eats all of them. That’s called luck and random chance.

Chicago Jack.5647:

Go ahead and watch the full vid. He’s not doing what your saying he’s doing.

I watched it and it’s obvious. Everbody who has seen Caed play knows that he almost never uses steal with heartseeker out of a blackpowder, because it is too predictable.

All you need to do is watch the first fight to realize that not a single time did Caed use steal with a heartseeker out of a black powder. None of those steals were easy to predict. He either uses steal with black powder on the warrior or he uses it out of stealth and once when he was low on initiative he just used it as an interrupt.

Yet that very first fight is the one where the warrior evades all but a single steal.

@ Slim.3024, Chicago Jack.5647

what is exactly powder overloading? spamming little spells to clear blinds?

Powder overloading is doing multi-hit attacks so that you still do damage even with blind nulling the first one.

TaCktiX.6729:

Powder overloading is doing multi-hit attacks so that you still do damage even with blind nulling the first one.

like thief d/d autoattack? or ranger rapid fire?

Slim.3024:

Which is why those fights were close. Greatsword and Longbow are great against thieves and blinds, especially with bull’s charge and Frenzy. there is a reason why warriors don’t use that build anymore, however.

If I had a dime every time someone on this forum says, “That build isn’t viable.” I would be very rich. This is what he runs. That is what he runs in tpvp – this isn’t just a random build. He prefers a roamer spec.

Slim.3024:

And the dodges and whirlwinds on steals that come out of stealth are still not “skilled play”. That warrior plays with energy runes and building momentum and was basically spamming dodges even when not necessary (which is fine, I am not saying he didn’t play well).

You can’t spam dodges with one energy sigil.

Slim.3024:

That’s called luck and random chance.

I disagree. The warrior knew what he was doing, so was the thief.

Gesho,
There are certain skills that the blind from blackpowder cannot keep up with. Pistolwhip for the thief is one example. Detonate Clusterbomb is another. They will blind one of the attacks, but the consecutive blinds will not be able to handle all the other hits.

Chicago Jack.5647:

If I had a dime every time someone on this forum says, “That build isn’t viable.” I would be very rich. This is what he runs. That is what he runs in tpvp – this isn’t just a random build. He prefers a roamer spec.

Tarcis runs hambow when he plays teams. I can 100% guarantee that.

Chicago Jack.5647:

If I had a dime every time someone on this forum says, “That build isn’t viable.” I would be very rich. This is what he runs. That is what he runs in tpvp – this isn’t just a random build. He prefers a roamer spec.

Never said it wasn’t viable. Running a build like that, however, gives the warrior a completely different role, which if it were to be run by the majority of warriors, would never result in all those “warriors are op” threads we have been seeing, because the Greatsword/Longbow builds without stances requires you to down your opponents quickly or be downed, which leaves you vulnerable in sustained fights, while at the same time not being as good as other professions in situations where you outnumber the opponent.

GW2’s meta has evolved into what it is, because people have understood that you win by stalling when outnumbered and assault nodes with superior numbers. In both situations you want people that can either kill quickly or prolong fights in a major way.

Once you get two nodes you can then exert map control by forcing the opposing team into a drawn out battle over their last node, while being able to rotate players in and out and disposing of attackers going for a different node with your big damage guns.

You can’t spam dodges with one energy sigil.

You get two dodges from your energy bar, one from a weapon swap and two from your adrenaline burst abilities through Building Momentum. That’s five dodges back to back potentially and usually three to four depending on your weapon sets.

I disagree. The warrior knew what he was doing, so was the thief.

Both knew what they were doing alright, but that doesn’t change the fact that evading four steals in a row is not skill. If it was, you’d be able to reproduce it. Skill is reproduceable to a high degree.

Logging in to say Slim has definitely stated the most reasonable argument. This “most skilled” x or y class crap is a load of elitist bull kitten. Not to demean the level of awareness a lot of players achieve. 1 vs 1 situations are more algorithmic than I’m sure a lot of players would like to admit.

Larkstongue.5367:

Logging in to say Slim has definitely stated the most reasonable argument. This “most skilled” x or y class crap is a load of elitist bull kitten. Not to demean the level of awareness a lot of players achieve. 1 vs 1 situations are more algorithmic than I’m sure a lot of players would like to admit.

When I look at balance I generally don’t look at the amount of skill a class requires but it’s overall power level when compared to other classes.

Some classes/builds will always be easier to get the hang of than others, but for balance it is more important to balance the overall power level a build can achieve.

I think it is important for the game to not have powerful specs that are just absurdly easy to play such as minion necro in 1v1s, but that’s a separate kind of balance. Because ultimately, even though Minion Necro is stupid and rage inducing to fight against, it isn’t a part of the meta right now

My engineer wears settlers and destroys warriors and thieves, even 2v1, soooooo, l2p?

thaooo.5320:

My engineer wears settlers and destroys warriors and thieves, even 2v1, soooooo, l2p?

You need to learn to read.

One of my main points in my original was that Thieves/ Warriors force other classes like necros/rangers/engies into running condi tanks, which is exactly what a settler’s engi is.

To kill a warrior you need sustained damage and poison. To kill a thief you need sustain. Warriors can kill all burst builds by outsustaining them. Thief can kill all burst builds by bursting them faster than they can burst back due to shadowsteps/evades with damage. Combine Warrior and Thief and you force all other classes to go either Bunker/Condi Tank specs.
Both classes are easy to kill in certain occasions so people please open your minds and stop crying about builds, when i play pvp all i see is possibilities due to the fact that this game is way more tactical and team based that you think. When you are low ask for your teammate to cc the one who attacks you or even kill him, or if you are a noob who keeps running away from the attacker try attacking others for a change. To sum up, the game is not focused for 1v1 at the moment even though it feels quite balanced when both players know what they are doing so please leave the bullkitten aside.

Holy Ogre.6409:

To kill a thief you need sustain. Warriors can kill all burst builds by outsustaining them.

Actually good thieves obliterate warriors, and thieves are pretty much the only burst roamer in the meta right now.

Rarnark.5623:

Holy Ogre.6409:

To kill a thief you need sustain. Warriors can kill all burst builds by outsustaining them.

Actually good thieves obliterate warriors, and thieves are pretty much the only burst roamer in the meta right now.

If the warrior is smart and uses his fire-field right, he beats the thief. Unlike warriors who can jaunt around inside heavy aoe like its a field of daisies, thieves feel the pressure REALLY quick and are forced to back away. Every second you have to back off a warrior is time he is quickly healing towards full.

I need to do more thief vs war duels but from what I can tell so far it is mostly on the thief to not let up on the pressure while it is on the warrior to land damage while zerk stance is up and predict where the thief is while stealthed.

Norvos.9304:

That was a terrible Thief. That was one of those Thieves who think they don’t have enough tools, dps, escapes, stealth, to be effective. He could have used those blinds to enable him to not be touched while damaging the Warrior. He could have done a million other things. I’m sorry but that was not a good example. Contrary to what you say, even really good Warriors get killed very easy. I’m not just pulling this out of my rear here. They are called Glass cannon Thieves, and if they know how to play and avoid correctly, they will win extremely fast. It’s happened to me, and it’s happened to my victims. This is why we bring one or two thieves in our tournaments. They can move all over the map and disable anyone except Ranger’s with the petting Zoo, or Necro Minion Mancer’s very quickly. They should have more penalties if they go full glass, as in less time in stealth, or diminishing returns on damage the more times they stealth during combat.

Since this debate could go on forever, lets just agree to disagree shall we?

Any real thief knows how good that gameplay in the vid from caed was. You are just another nobody who gets wrecked by thiefs because you don’t know how to play. Anyone here remember when thiefs could stealth stomp from ground to clocktower? You don’t even know what an OP thief looks like.

infantrydiv.1620:

What Thieves shut down:

-Mesmer (Can evade all shatters)
-Elementalist (Can evade all burst)

-Basically any Glass Cannon spec other than Guardian:

-Power Necromancer (Trains out of fight)
-Berserker Warrior (Trains out of fight)
- Power Ranger (Trains out of fight)

There’s a lot more to Mesmer than just Shattering, first of all. However, a well-timed shatter will still hit a thief, and even if only one of your shatters hits the thief, you can still deal massive damage.

No, we can’t evade all of the ele’s burst. Nice try though.

I don’t know about glass cannons, but I run a Zerker amulet + Soldier’s jewel and an overall offensively-oriented build on all of my professions and I do just fine.

Power Necromancers suck anyways, it’s not a matter of thieves training them out of a fight.

Zerker warriors? LOL not even remotely close.

Power Rangers also suck, there’s a reason why they’re considered the class most in need of help right now.

Norvos.9304:

That was a terrible Thief.

I… Do you… Do you even… WTF?

Arganthium.5638:

infantrydiv.1620:

What Thieves shut down:

-Mesmer (Can evade all shatters)
-Elementalist (Can evade all burst)

-Basically any Glass Cannon spec other than Guardian:

-Power Necromancer (Trains out of fight)
-Berserker Warrior (Trains out of fight)
- Power Ranger (Trains out of fight)

There’s a lot more to Mesmer than just Shattering, first of all. However, a well-timed shatter will still hit a thief, and even if only one of your shatters hits the thief, you can still deal massive damage.

No, we can’t evade all of the ele’s burst. Nice try though.

I don’t know about glass cannons, but I run a Zerker amulet + Soldier’s jewel and an overall offensively-oriented build on all of my professions and I do just fine.

Power Necromancers suck anyways, it’s not a matter of thieves training them out of a fight.

Zerker warriors? LOL not even remotely close.

Power Rangers also suck, there’s a reason why they’re considered the class most in need of help right now.

Norvos.9304:

That was a terrible Thief.

I… Do you… Do you even… WTF?

Yes, a thief can evade all eles major burst.

And yes, a lucky shatter can hit a thief. Congratulations. Mesmer viable I guess

If you actually think Thief isn’t one of the main reasons ele/mesmer are bad right now, I don’t know what to say.

more like, PvE is shutting down PvP diversity.

ANet’s PvP Devs are powerrless to affect change in their own product. it must be frustrating for them.

all the players who have poured so much passion into the game for the past 2 years are right in the same boat with them ( up a certain creek without a paddle ).