Thieves in Stronghold.

Thieves in Stronghold.

in PvP

Posted by: Loki.8793

Loki.8793

I realize this post is a bit preemptive as the Ready-up livestream that is demoing stronghold is being released in a few hours, but after reading the description of stronghold I have a bit of a concern with thieves and the number of roles they seem to be able to fill.

First, here are the described roles in Stronghold.

  • Assaulter—This player clears the way of enemy players, trebuchets, and NPC guards, giving doorbreakers a clear shot at the gate. A high-damage build for bursting down NPCs being healed by defending players and the ability to go one-on-one are a must.
  • Smuggler—Smugglers gather supply and spend it at the barracks. They keep an eye on which unit best suits the current situation and then send that unit down the offense lane. Swiftness, stability, and evasion are a big help when gathering and running supply, but be prepared for a team fight at the supply depot when being quick and sneaky isn’t enough. Smugglers will also be well positioned to compete against enemy players to channel mist essence and call forth a hero, thus possibly turning the tide of a battle.
  • Shepherd—The shepherd meets up with units spawned by the smuggler and shepherds them up the lane to where the assaulters are keeping the lane clear. This is a role perfectly suited for players who love to play support. They keep their doorbreakers moving, buffed, and—most importantly—alive as they protect them in face-to-face confrontations against enemy defenses.
  • Defender—The defender’s job is to stop the enemy and their doorbreakers from breaking down their gate and advancing. You can play a high-damage dueling build to kill the enemy assaulters and shepherds in order to pick off doorbreakers as they come through, or you can take a more defensive approach and focus on keeping your guards alive so they can stop doorbreakers in their tracks.
  • Trebuchet Master—The trebuchet master operates their team’s trebuchet in order to rain fiery death on assaulters, shepherds, troops, and anyone else who dares approach their stronghold. They also exert control on distant parts of the map, such as the strategically important supply depot. An effective trebuchet master must be prepared to fight duels to maintain area control and prevent opposing players from summoning a hero to gain the upper hand.
  • Roamer—The roamer is a jack-of-all-trades. This role is for the generalist who fills in wherever needed, in any number of situations, by bouncing constantly between lanes, the supply depot, and hero channels to fight enemy players all over the map.
  • Slayer—This player tries to break apart and destroy other player roles. They hunt down players who are smuggling, shepherding, defending, or manning trebuchets to wipe them out while mostly ignoring NPCs.

At only a glance, it seems to me a thief can fill every one of these roles except for shepherd. What makes thieves balanced in conquest are the capture points. Thieves are mobile and deal lots of damage, but they can’t take damage: they need to avoid it. This makes them particuarly bad at holding points, but fantastic at neutralizing them. However, stronghold doesn’t have capture points, and so thieves can use their superior mobility to escape and get to key locations without any worry.

Because of the thief’s mobility and high damage, coupled with the mode’s lack of bunkers, thieves seem nothing less then mandatory. The high damage fits the Assaulter, Defender, Roamer, and Slayer roles. The high mobility fits the Smuggler and Trebuchet Master roles (If the trebuchet is anything like in Kyhlo). Channels seem to only be interrupted by using a CC or killing the enemy, both of which the thief does well. Trickery-traited-Steal targets stability first, and daze shot can be used at any time without restraint.

To reiterate, conquest limits a thief’s potential with the usage of capture points. Without them, it seems thieves will reign as king in stronghold, being able to fit nearly any role, shut down other players (especially other berserkers), and can use their mobility and stealth to control objectives with little effort, and all on the same build.

>>>>>>> What are your thoughts on this? Do you think other professions will be able to counter the thief, or will the thief reign supreme?

(edited by Loki.8793)

Thieves in Stronghold.

in PvP

Posted by: style.6173

style.6173

It is hard to take your post seriously when we don’t know any of the mechanics yet. Claiming any one particular class is going to be super strong right now is a bit naïve.

Thieves in Stronghold.

in PvP

Posted by: ronpierce.2760

ronpierce.2760

It is hard to take your post seriously when we don’t know any of the mechanics yet. Claiming any one particular class is going to be super strong right now is a bit naïve.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/stronghold-the-battle-of-champions-dusk/

Seems to be enough on mechanics to speculate?

High Warlord Sikari (80 Reaper) / Lord Siekron (80 DH)
Warlord Sikari (80 Scrapper)

Thieves in Stronghold.

in PvP

Posted by: shimmerless.4560

shimmerless.4560

Thieves aren’t really that well-balanced in capture points either. Sure they’re a necessary check on ledgers and some other specs but the way they can decap and abuse initiative/no cooldowns is brainless, it’s the major thing that leads to AFK home bunkers.

Thieves in Stronghold.

in PvP

Posted by: Solstice.1097

Solstice.1097

i agree but also mesmers. it looks like, as of now, that thieves and mesmers will definitely be meta in stronghold.

but one of my questions is will SH use the same PvP build menu, and will it use the same PvP balance (like how some skills work differently in pve than pvp, will stronghold have its own balancing as well separate from pvp?).

Thieves in Stronghold.

in PvP

Posted by: Kousetsu.1627

Kousetsu.1627

As long as they die as fast in stronghold as they do in conquest, im fine with it.

Thieves in Stronghold.

in PvP

Posted by: Jekkt.6045

Jekkt.6045

doesn’t have to be the case. imagine a guard / ele putting walls down when he thinks that there are stealthed skritt bombers. or staff necro, easy checks.

Ex player of PeanutButterJellyTime, Heavenly Annoying and Visceral Gaming.

Thieves in Stronghold.

in PvP

Posted by: BlackBeard.2873

BlackBeard.2873

I think its clear that we will be seeing a LOT Of permastealth thieves, a lot of QQ about it, and a potentially broken game-mode thanks to permastealth.

Permastealth is pretty trash in pvp thanks to capture points and the need to burst as a rather squishy player. In WvW, permastealth is honestly OP. I think we might quickly see the game-mode devolve into 5 thief v. 5 thief teams.

Thieves in Stronghold.

in PvP

Posted by: Teutos.8620

Teutos.8620

From the first preview for me it feels like there will be a big 5v5 to get the secondary objective hero to spawn for your side; his buff seemed pretty strong.

Maybe some kind of Sanctuary/Stability stacking to ensure the buff for your own team?

EU – Multiple times #1 SoloQ pre Dec 2014 (pure MMR based ladder)
Primoridal (S1) & Exalted (S2) & Illustrious (S3) Legend

Thieves in Stronghold.

in PvP

Posted by: Highlie.7641

Highlie.7641

I seem to be out of salt and vinegar chips.. Could someone spare me a bag?

Thieves in Stronghold.

in PvP

Posted by: PopeUrban.2578

PopeUrban.2578

Except for the part where thieves aren’t particularly the best class at long running mobility to run supply, aoe to clear enemy mobs, support to keep guards or bombers alive, or survivability when attempting to channel.

Basically, Thieves are good at thiefy things, they’ll roam well, and might make good treb masters due to their 1v1 potential, but they can’t simply dominate the meta for the mode because too much of it depends on NPC support and assaulting fixed positions, both things thieves suck at unless specifically specced for support. And lets be fair here, thief support specs are one trick ponies with a really long cooldown that can’t do anything else when specced that way.

A team full of thieves would likely end up burning so much initiative, and so many cooldowns killing npcs that they’d get wiped out by players, or so much killing players that they’d lose the match due to not being able to keep up with the blow of npcs properly.

Guild Master – The Papacy [POPE] (Gate of Madness)/Road Scholar for the Durmand Priory
Writer/Director – Quaggan Quest
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky2TGPmMPeQ

Thieves in Stronghold.

in PvP

Posted by: Johje Holan.4607

Johje Holan.4607

I agree its worrisome. The solution is to limit stealth somehow in Stronghold.

Thieves in Stronghold.

in PvP

Posted by: Khenzy.9348

Khenzy.9348

I think the spammable interrupt with Head Shot (pistol offhand) will be more of a game changer, ya know, to easily ’rupt all those channels.

Massive mobility and stealth are just the cherry on top.

At the very least, 1 thief per team is going to be mandatory for sure I think. Isn’t this (kindda) the case with conquest currently?

Thieves in Stronghold.

in PvP

Posted by: Scoobaniec.9561

Scoobaniec.9561

So now people realizing that theres are broken builds that were okay for them for the whole time cause “they cant cap points”? Its going to be fun reading all that QQ on forum about perma stealth thieves, pu mesmers etc. Cant w8 ^^

Thieves in Stronghold.

in PvP

Posted by: ronpierce.2760

ronpierce.2760

Part of me really really wants to buck up and get my butt handed to me a lot and learn thief now because stealth+ pistol interrupt is going to be invaluable for this.

High Warlord Sikari (80 Reaper) / Lord Siekron (80 DH)
Warlord Sikari (80 Scrapper)

Thieves in Stronghold.

in PvP

Posted by: Gabriell.4856

Gabriell.4856

…[/b]

Assaulter— Ele

Smuggler—Ele

Shepherd—Ele

Defender—Ele

Trebuchet Master—Ele

Roamer—Ele

Slayer—Ele

Fixed it for you.

Sincerely,

Thief

Thieves in Stronghold.

in PvP

Posted by: Reikou.7068

Reikou.7068

Just remove shadow’s rejuvenation and prismatic understanding traits.

Easy fix.

Reikou/Reira/Iroha/Sengiku/Rinoka/Kuruse/Sakuho/Kinae/Yuzusa/Kikurin/Otoha/Hasue/Mioko
https://www.youtube.com/AilesDeLumiere
http://www.twitch.tv/ailesdelumiere

Thieves in Stronghold.

in PvP

Posted by: Pixels.6532

Pixels.6532

Just remove shadow’s rejuvenation and prismatic understanding traits.

Easy fix.

If this new game mode is dumped into the regular queue, which will be a colossal mistake, it may not matter. But if they execute right and Stronghold is it’s own queue, I have a feeling SA Thieves and PU mesmers will become two of the most hated builds in this game… it’d be good actually, because both need to be nerfed outside of conquest.

Sanctum of Rall

Thieves in Stronghold.

in PvP

Posted by: Lux.7169

Lux.7169

A map with guild lord and treb?

Did they make this map for me?

[SoF]

Thieves in Stronghold.

in PvP

Posted by: BlackBeard.2873

BlackBeard.2873

So now people realizing that theres are broken builds that were okay for them for the whole time cause “they cant cap points”? Its going to be fun reading all that QQ on forum about perma stealth thieves, pu mesmers etc. Cant w8 ^^

Exactly…Whatever your problem that isn’t holding a cap-point…perma-stealth thief has an answer.

Having trouble getting away from pressure, or with mobility…this build is #1 in mobility, and impossible to kill unless the player is braindead.

Having trouble with people running supply endlessly or channeling heros…thieves have spammable interrupts, and can ignore stability with steal.

Having trouble sneaking into opponent’s lord…thieves have stealth for team.

Having trouble breaking down the gate…stealth again.

When cap points don’t matter, perma-stealth + insane mobility + ports that ignore LOS is OP. Shadow rejuvenation may finally get a much-needed nerf after 6 months of dominating and QQ, and WvW players will rejoice!

Thieves in Stronghold.

in PvP

Posted by: Deniara Devious.3948

Deniara Devious.3948

I predict we will see similar builds seen in WvWvW small scale roaming, only that many of those WvWvW builds are not possible, because the gear (e.g. Perplexity runes) are not available in spvp/tpvp.

Thieves have always been extremely common in WvWvW, D/P perma stealth and P/D condi making huge chunk of them. In my estimate they make 1/3 of the roaming population, sometimes more than a half. Mesmers are currently the 2nd most common roamers and have several valid builds as well (shatter, PU etc). 3rd place probably goes to meditation guardians or greatsword mobility warriors, followed by longbow power and condition rangers, celestial D/D eles and condition semi-bunker engineers. It is very common to see multiple thieves and mesmers bursting down the same target. Engineer is a good counter to D/P thieves, but not that good against P/D due lack of condition removal. Yet the number of engis in WvWvW roaming is probably 5-10 times less than the number of thieves (this should tell game devs something!).

Stealth has always been broken in WvWvW: Cloak and Dagger from enemy structures (walls, gates, siege) and forest animals. The upcoming Stronghold mode looks like it is a mini version of WvWvW. For some weird reason revealed is only 3 seconds in WvWvW (stealth is clearly more powerful in WvWvW, yet revealed is shorter!!). Stealth + high mobility (shadowsteps) allows the player to reset any fight it wants. This pretty much defeats almost all the other berserker builds from the game, thus limiting the meta. Besides the occasional full berserker pewpew ranger and mesmer, you don’t see any other berserker builds (than thieves) in the game for a good reason.

I see only few reasonable solutions to this:
- limit the maximum duration of stealth, e.g. limit it to 8 seconds
- making stealthed players gradually visible to opponents, in other words after some time in stealth they would be rendered semi-transparent = just like they are rendered to their allies. This would still not allow targeting them, but would remove the guess game. If the game area is large, hitting them with AoE is a guess game.
- redesign some of the problematic runes and sigils e.g. fire and air sigil should not trigger at same time (this allows high 2.9k armor builds, which can still do extremely high critical damage)

Removing stealth is really not on option as stealth is such an integral part of thief profession that it would mean complete redesign of the profession.

Deniara / Ayna – I want the original WvWvW maps back – Desolation [EU]

(edited by Deniara Devious.3948)

Thieves in Stronghold.

in PvP

Posted by: Duka.5864

Duka.5864

HOt is not near to come out no1 played a single game of Stronghold and here we have first complain about thief’s OP :P CRY………….

Thieves in Stronghold.

in PvP

Posted by: Loki.8793

Loki.8793

HOt is not near to come out no1 played a single game of Stronghold and here we have first complain about thief’s OP :P CRY………….

I’m not complaining though. I actually main a thief, done so since the open betas, and I spend most of my time in PvP. Over 2000 hours just in pvp on my thief. If thief does end up being mandatory and overpowering in this mode, I would benefit the most out of it.

However, I also appreciate class balance and diversity in pvp, and I’m suspecting thieves will go against that in this new game type. I feel it can be heavily argued that thieves are the reason why we don’t see other berserker classes in conquest and wvwvw: they just destroy them, and force the meta into more defensive builds.

The single biggest concern I have with the information we’ve been given is thieves seem to be able to cover multiple roles with the same build. To me, this suggests they will be the most important and most used class in this mode. And from a balance perspective, I dislike this.

Thieves in Stronghold.

in PvP

Posted by: Teutos.8620

Teutos.8620

*I predict we will see similar builds seen in WvWvW small scale roaming, *

No we won’t. Because on the opposite to WvW we have a real competition in SPvP.

Due to the fact, that you don’t have a match making system in WvW you will face people from all skill-level, therefore too many people actually think their build is viable or good, but actually only works in hot-join like environments.

EU – Multiple times #1 SoloQ pre Dec 2014 (pure MMR based ladder)
Primoridal (S1) & Exalted (S2) & Illustrious (S3) Legend

Thieves in Stronghold.

in PvP

Posted by: Sagat.3285

Sagat.3285

A: revealed

Even if the npcs succeed unarmed and stealthed as soon as they attack you can see them. If you are worried about buff of heroes ranged builds exist, most of those might actually not be UP like in conquest , npcs are not braindead as well.

Conquest limited a lot of builds I don’t mind an increase or change in diversity, this is going to turn like turrets in conquest they are favored but you can outplay and beat them if you are working in team.

“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140
The Dhuumfire thread

Thieves in Stronghold.

in PvP

Posted by: Shanks.2907

Shanks.2907

Sounds like medizerk guardians will have a place in stronghold, if only to just counter thieves.

Thieves in Stronghold.

in PvP

Posted by: Fennek.7602

Fennek.7602

So now people realizing that theres are broken builds that were okay for them for the whole time cause “they cant cap points”? Its going to be fun reading all that QQ on forum about perma stealth thieves, pu mesmers etc. Cant w8 ^^

Exactly…Whatever your problem that isn’t holding a cap-point…perma-stealth thief has an answer.

Having trouble getting away from pressure, or with mobility…this build is #1 in mobility, and impossible to kill unless the player is braindead.

Having trouble with people running supply endlessly or channeling heros…thieves have spammable interrupts, and can ignore stability with steal.

Having trouble sneaking into opponent’s lord…thieves have stealth for team.

Having trouble breaking down the gate…stealth again.

When cap points don’t matter, perma-stealth + insane mobility + ports that ignore LOS is OP. Shadow rejuvenation may finally get a much-needed nerf after 6 months of dominating and QQ, and WvW players will rejoice!

So why doesn’t Anet just give us more options to “reveal” stealth. Rangers have “Sic ’Em”, why shouldn’t every class have at least 1 skill that reveals? It is an easy fix and still leaves room for stealth. It also enforces choices: Who will take this anti-stealth skill? Which skill do I replace with the anti-stealth skill?

Some skills that could get revealed as another effect:
Warrior: “On my mark!”
Necro: Well of darkness
Ele: Signet of Water (Active)
and so on

Anet could identify skills that are underused and give them this additional effect. —> More build variety and an easy fix for perma-stealth problems that doesn’t totally eliminate stealth builds.

Thieves in Stronghold.

in PvP

Posted by: Lux.7169

Lux.7169

They should sell revealed traps for 1 supply the gives a 60s revealed debuff.

/signed by a thief

[SoF]

Thieves in Stronghold.

in PvP

Posted by: ronpierce.2760

ronpierce.2760

They should sell revealed traps for 1 supply the gives a 60s revealed debuff.

/signed by a thief

To everything or just the npcs?

High Warlord Sikari (80 Reaper) / Lord Siekron (80 DH)
Warlord Sikari (80 Scrapper)

Thieves in Stronghold.

in PvP

Posted by: Lux.7169

Lux.7169

They should sell revealed traps for 1 supply the gives a 60s revealed debuff.

/signed by a thief

To everything or just the npcs?

of course I put no thought into balance, but I don’t mind if it also affects players. It would add mind-games because it would involve “will the enemy walk this direction or is it too obvious a place for a trap?”

[SoF]