Guild Wars 2

I find that these six items are the main causes of imbalances in pvp games. It seems impossible to design a competitive system that includes them without them becoming a dominate strategy, limiting the strategic options the game, or just not being fun or interesting to play against. I feel they must be removed completely from any MMO that wants to be taken seriously as a competitive game.

1. Crowd Control: Next to gameplay control is the next thing players notice while playing. Taking away that control is very serious matter and not something players should be able to do to each other whenever they feel like it. Even if there are ways to counter it it’s always the best decision you could make.

2. Risk Free Repositioning: Teleporting, shadow stepping, portals, knockbacks, etc. Anything that gets you from point A to B easier or faster than the other guy without some major drawback is going to be overpowered.

Check your game design history, in every game that’s ever been made (single or multiplayer) the most powerful options are ALWAYS the ones that allow for easier repositioning or denying position to your opponent.

3. Invisibility: Stealth is fine, invisibility is not. In addition to not being fun to play against invisibility violates one of the key concepts of competitive gaming: making decisions based on the actions of your opponent. You can’t make meaningful decisions based on an opponent you can’t see.

It’s also impossible to design effective counters to invisibility without giving everyone the same access to it or removing its viability.

4. Fire and Forget AI (Pets): Everything in PvP must be controlled by a player. Duh.

5. Group PvP: PvPers are very selfish people, the only skill they care about is their own. More importantly PvP becomes exponentially harder to balance and less accessible the more players are involved. Unless you’re designing a game like baseball and put strict limits on what players can and can’t do team PvP will not support competitive play.

6. Free/Safe Actions: Every option that is made available to a player has must have some form of penalty and/or exploitable weakness attached to it. Nothing should be safe only safer.

Of course I could be wrong on all these points, but I have yet to find any game (single or multiplayer) that incorporates these items while still remaining competitive or balanced. If one exists I’d like to see it.

Can GW2 make it as a competitive game while these kinds of options remain? Even if they were balanced is it worth designing around them if they turn off the casual player base?

I’d love to hear what you guys think.

Risk Free Repositioning: Teleporting, shadow stepping, portals, knockbacks, etc. Anything that gets you from point A to B easier or faster than the other guy without some major drawback is going to be overpowered.

The Major Drawback is that you now have a stun-breaker on Cd.

6. Free/Safe Actions: Every option that is made available to a player has must have some form of penalty and/or exploitable weakness attached to it. Nothing should be safe only safer.

What do you mean by this?

Ryld.1340:

Risk Free Repositioning: Teleporting, shadow stepping, portals, knockbacks, etc. Anything that gets you from point A to B easier or faster than the other guy without some major drawback is going to be overpowered.

The Major Drawback is that you now have a stun-breaker on Cd.

6. Free/Safe Actions: Every option that is made available to a player has must have some form of penalty and/or exploitable weakness attached to it. Nothing should be safe only safer.

What do you mean by this?

CDs aren’t really drawbacks especially if you used your CD at the correct time.

What I mean by risk free repositioning is placing yourself in a favorable spot without any way for your opponent to respond or any at cost to yourself.

Steal and Infiltrator’s Arrow are examples of a risk-free reposition options because a player can use them to get a in a favorable position without any real cost and there’s not much a player can do to prevent it even if they know it’s coming.

A safe option just means that there’s no real risk to using it and even if it’s used poorly a player can’t really be punished for doing it.

One way to understand safe or unsafe options is to think of Chess. No matter what play you make you’re exposing yourself to attack in some way.

Compared to GW2 where I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been able to survive or defeat players I know are better than me simply because I was playing a mesmer or a thief and there was nothing they could have realistically done to stop me even if I had made several mistakes during the fight.

Try making a mistake as a ranger and watch what happens.

Boloth.6879:

Of course I could be wrong on all these points, but I have yet to find any game (single or multiplayer) that incorporates these items while still remaining competitive or balanced. If one exists I’d like to see it.

Can GW2 make it as a competitive game while these kinds of options remain? Even if they were balanced is it worth designing around them if they turn off the casual player base?

I’d love to hear what you guys think.

I’m fairly certain LoL violates every one of your points (possibly not point #6, but I’m unsure what exactly you mean by that one).

1. LoL has crowd control skills, whether that’s as a stun, grab, or snare, they are a critical part of the game.

2. There are movement skills in LoL that work in more or less the same fashion as in GW2. It could be argued that any movement skill is coming at the cost of another skill the champion would carry otherwise, but that’s the case for these skills in GW2 as well. If I take “Retreat!” for swiftness, I can’t take a different utility in its place. Shortbow thief has Infiltrator’s Arrow, but that’s their 5-slot weapon skill, which is a lot to give up, and it costs half their total Initiative to use.

3. Stealth is a major mechanic in LoL. However, all characters have access to items which can see through invisibility which mitigates the effect.

4. Creeps are obviously uncontrolled AI minions. Beyond that, I’m fairly certain Tibbers behaves similarly to a ranger’s pet.

5. LoL has the same 5v5 team oriented structure as GW2’s tPvP has.

Syeria.4812:

Boloth.6879:

Of course I could be wrong on all these points, but I have yet to find any game (single or multiplayer) that incorporates these items while still remaining competitive or balanced. If one exists I’d like to see it.

Can GW2 make it as a competitive game while these kinds of options remain? Even if they were balanced is it worth designing around them if they turn off the casual player base?

I’d love to hear what you guys think.

I’m fairly certain LoL violates every one of your points (possibly not point #6, but I’m unsure what exactly you mean by that one).

1. LoL has crowd control skills, whether that’s as a stun, grab, or snare, they are a critical part of the game.

2. There are movement skills in LoL that work in more or less the same fashion as in GW2. It could be argued that any movement skill is coming at the cost of another skill the champion would carry otherwise, but that’s the case for these skills in GW2 as well. If I take “Retreat!” for swiftness, I can’t take a different utility in its place. Shortbow thief has Infiltrator’s Arrow, but that’s their 5-slot weapon skill, which is a lot to give up, and it costs half their total Initiative to use.

3. Stealth is a major mechanic in LoL. However, all characters have access to items which can see through invisibility which mitigates the effect.

4. Creeps are obviously uncontrolled AI minions. Beyond that, I’m fairly certain Tibbers behaves similarly to a ranger’s pet.

5. LoL has the same 5v5 team oriented structure as GW2’s tPvP has.

Personally I feel that LoL is the game design equivalent of the Twilight novels. It’s popular and everyone likes it but for all the wrong reasons.

The point I’m trying to make things like CC and stealth play a major role in any game they’re featured in and anything that doesn’t have these abilities or any way to deal with them is not viable in competitive play thus limiting the strategic depth of a game.

You have to design around these and if you do the game usually ends up being really boring to play.

Boloth.6879:

I find that these six items are the main causes of imbalances in pvp games. It seems impossible to design a competitive system that includes them without them becoming a dominate strategy, limiting the strategic options the game, or just not being fun or interesting to play against. I feel they must be removed completely from any MMO that wants to be taken seriously as a competitive game.

1. Crowd Control: Next to gameplay control is the next thing players notice while playing. Taking away that control is very serious matter and not something players should be able to do to each other whenever they feel like it. Even if there are ways to counter it it’s always the best decision you could make.

2. Risk Free Repositioning: Teleporting, shadow stepping, portals, knockbacks, etc. Anything that gets you from point A to B easier or faster than the other guy without some major drawback is going to be overpowered.

Check your game design history, in every game that’s ever been made (single or multiplayer) the most powerful options are ALWAYS the ones that allow for easier repositioning or denying position to your opponent.

3. Invisibility: Stealth is fine, invisibility is not. In addition to not being fun to play against invisibility violates one of the key concepts of competitive gaming: making decisions based on the actions of your opponent. You can’t make meaningful decisions based on an opponent you can’t see.

It’s also impossible to design effective counters to invisibility without giving everyone the same access to it or removing its viability.

4. Fire and Forget AI (Pets): Everything in PvP must be controlled by a player. Duh.

5. Group PvP: PvPers are very selfish people, the only skill they care about is their own. More importantly PvP becomes exponentially harder to balance and less accessible the more players are involved. Unless you’re designing a game like baseball and put strict limits on what players can and can’t do team PvP will not support competitive play.

6. Free/Safe Actions: Every option that is made available to a player has must have some form of penalty and/or exploitable weakness attached to it. Nothing should be safe only safer.

Of course I could be wrong on all these points, but I have yet to find any game (single or multiplayer) that incorporates these items while still remaining competitive or balanced. If one exists I’d like to see it.

Can GW2 make it as a competitive game while these kinds of options remain? Even if they were balanced is it worth designing around them if they turn off the casual player base?

I’d love to hear what you guys think.

So your idea is 1v1 with only damage, mitigation,and heals?

Birdrock.1697:

Boloth.6879:

I find that these six items are the main causes of imbalances in pvp games. It seems impossible to design a competitive system that includes them without them becoming a dominate strategy, limiting the strategic options the game, or just not being fun or interesting to play against. I feel they must be removed completely from any MMO that wants to be taken seriously as a competitive game.

1. Crowd Control: Next to gameplay control is the next thing players notice while playing. Taking away that control is very serious matter and not something players should be able to do to each other whenever they feel like it. Even if there are ways to counter it it’s always the best decision you could make.

2. Risk Free Repositioning: Teleporting, shadow stepping, portals, knockbacks, etc. Anything that gets you from point A to B easier or faster than the other guy without some major drawback is going to be overpowered.

Check your game design history, in every game that’s ever been made (single or multiplayer) the most powerful options are ALWAYS the ones that allow for easier repositioning or denying position to your opponent.

3. Invisibility: Stealth is fine, invisibility is not. In addition to not being fun to play against invisibility violates one of the key concepts of competitive gaming: making decisions based on the actions of your opponent. You can’t make meaningful decisions based on an opponent you can’t see.

It’s also impossible to design effective counters to invisibility without giving everyone the same access to it or removing its viability.

4. Fire and Forget AI (Pets): Everything in PvP must be controlled by a player. Duh.

5. Group PvP: PvPers are very selfish people, the only skill they care about is their own. More importantly PvP becomes exponentially harder to balance and less accessible the more players are involved. Unless you’re designing a game like baseball and put strict limits on what players can and can’t do team PvP will not support competitive play.

6. Free/Safe Actions: Every option that is made available to a player has must have some form of penalty and/or exploitable weakness attached to it. Nothing should be safe only safer.

Of course I could be wrong on all these points, but I have yet to find any game (single or multiplayer) that incorporates these items while still remaining competitive or balanced. If one exists I’d like to see it.

Can GW2 make it as a competitive game while these kinds of options remain? Even if they were balanced is it worth designing around them if they turn off the casual player base?

I’d love to hear what you guys think.

So your idea is 1v1 with only damage, mitigation,and heals?

And a chessboard, apparently.

I was confused at first, but OP pretty much cleared it up in his second post. I now believe this is your average mesmer/thief QQ post, just with better grammar and less sense.

This is a horrible post.

You literally mentioned everything that makes PVP good as “things that should not exist.”

You are actually advocating a 1v1-only PVP system where people bash each other with auto-attacks.

I honestly hope it was sarcasm.

Birdrock.1697:

So your idea is 1v1 with only damage, mitigation,and heals?

My idea of PvP is a game system that promotes interaction between players not solely the game mechanics. The things I listed always seem to remove or reduce that interaction to the point where the game is no longer interesting to play.

Boloth.6879:

Birdrock.1697:

So your idea is 1v1 with only damage, mitigation,and heals?

My idea of PvP is a game system that promotes interaction between players not solely the game mechanics. The things I listed always seem to remove or reduce that interaction to the point where the game is no longer interesting to play.

Your idea is not well thought out.

Change your mind.

S so basically everything except damage and healing, yes?

Thank god not every opinion has to be respected.

Syeria.4812:

Boloth.6879:

Of course I could be wrong on all these points, but I have yet to find any game (single or multiplayer) that incorporates these items while still remaining competitive or balanced. If one exists I’d like to see it.

Can GW2 make it as a competitive game while these kinds of options remain? Even if they were balanced is it worth designing around them if they turn off the casual player base?

I’d love to hear what you guys think.

I’m fairly certain LoL violates every one of your points (possibly not point #6, but I’m unsure what exactly you mean by that one).

1. LoL has crowd control skills, whether that’s as a stun, grab, or snare, they are a critical part of the game.

2. There are movement skills in LoL that work in more or less the same fashion as in GW2. It could be argued that any movement skill is coming at the cost of another skill the champion would carry otherwise, but that’s the case for these skills in GW2 as well. If I take “Retreat!” for swiftness, I can’t take a different utility in its place. Shortbow thief has Infiltrator’s Arrow, but that’s their 5-slot weapon skill, which is a lot to give up, and it costs half their total Initiative to use.

3. Stealth is a major mechanic in LoL. However, all characters have access to items which can see through invisibility which mitigates the effect.

4. Creeps are obviously uncontrolled AI minions. Beyond that, I’m fairly certain Tibbers behaves similarly to a ranger’s pet.

5. LoL has the same 5v5 team oriented structure as GW2’s tPvP has.

And LoL isn’t balanced. lmao. This kinda is proving the point of the OP, which I neither agree nor disagree with. LoL has heroes that are just superior to others at all times. And worthless heroes that have no place.

But without CC and movement skills, the competition can be stale.

I think the Mesmer is the perfect example of a profession that is too strong, but, because of the core mechanics, can’t be adjusted without making the Mesmer too weak. CC and movement skills ruin everything, since it is built so heavily into the profession.

Their weapon skills summon clones and teleport the Mesmer away (which even when you know which is the real Mesmer, still allows the Mesmer a free dodge that uses no Endurance). They can also teleport or go invisible with weapons, allowing more cases to avoid enemies with another Endurance-free dodge. And they can do damage to you while causing you to do damage to yourself, not giving you much choice.

But if you take anything away, such as damage potential or their “free dodges”, the class ends up quite squishy. Which then would require too many changes to fix and gut the character of the profession.

I do wonder though if skills that allows us to “dodge” damage (not all professions are created equal here) would benefit from affecting Endurance in some way as well. GW1 had Exhaustion. I imaging a similar concept could work with allowing professions to use their “dodge type” skills on cooldown (one way to balance) but those skills eat up Endurance when it is full, and place Endurance in the negative when not full (another way to balance). So you would know that a Mesmer who is using their “dodge” skills often will not be using their Endurance dodge as well. And the sigils that refill Endurance would have a new meaning. Vigor as well.

In fact, they might need to add a third level, that when “Exhaustion” is in full effect, the skills “dodge” instead only blocks half of damage. Or fails. Or teleports half distance.

In WvW, I’ve used my lvl 12 Mesmer to chase down and kill actual lvl 80s. They are playing very well, and I’m taking big damage if hit, but I’m simply able to dodge being hit too often. It is a war of attrition, and I’m going to win.

It feels a little cheap.

I mean, I did have to be careful and work for it, but I simply knew that I would be able to avoid being hit by just using things up on CD.

Outright removing everything of flavor will bring balance. Unless everything is cookie cutter, there is never balance.

But that is boring. Who wants to do that all the time? Keg Brawl is fun, but not that fun. Same with the Halloween pvp.

Anyone saying the post doesn’t make sense clearly can’t think logically or critically. The post makes perfect sense. It doesn’t mean many would agree with such a change.

I would never want that change either. But I can be an adult and discuss it. PvP personae are such a jerk crowd in how they respond. Be less of a stereotype and respond negatively in a mature way.

The only one I agree with is crowd control. I’ve never played a game so over the top in this regard. Losing control of my character for 15+ seconds happens way more often than it should.

I would of just went to too much burst for a no healer game and left it at that.

CC is not overly long compaired to other games its really short…. problem is the burst is higher then other MMOs so the short CC 2 seconds can lead to losing 3/4s of your life before you can respond… Thats broken.

Agree on invis its hard to balance and broken.

Cheyenne.1085:

The only one I agree with is crowd control. I’ve never played a game so over the top in this regard. Losing control of my character for 15+ seconds happens way more often than it should.

Crowd Control could have a simple fix to prevent the 10 second stun locks. Diminishing Returns. I’m surprised a modern game would come out without them.

Xom.9264:

I would of just went to too much burst for a no healer game and left it at that.

CC is not overly long compaired to other games its really short…. problem is the burst is higher then other MMOs so the short CC 2 seconds can lead to losing 3/4s of your life before you can respond… Thats broken.

Agree on invis its hard to balance and broken.

CC is not long? I can keep someone down, alone for 12 seconds. And I’m not even trying to min/max it yet. Add in another player and we have total lock down of enemy player—and a free kill. Only a stun breaker will interrupt it, but I’ll wait for it to wear off and use the other 6 seconds on them.

This game has many balancing issues. Removing the problem completely is not a good solution. Diminishing Returns and such are. I basically say, stay cool until Aug next year. MMOs take about 1 year to adjust. If it’s still all crazy lopsided by then, well, then I’d worry.

This is my opinion on your post:

1: Crowd control is an amazing mechanic in PvP and i think if anything in GW2 is underrated, alot of people spam cooldowns without thinking about the CC effects that they offer (daze , blind, snares etc).

2: Risk free teleport’s whilst you say there is no risk, alot of the abilities do use a resource be it a cooldown or initiative for thieves so in theory that’s making a choice and a risk to use that ability dependant of the situation of course. Especially for Mesmers as blink is classed as a stun break so blinking at the wrong time may be game over for you if that warriors decided to hold his burst until you’ve used your CC breakers etc.

3: Stealth/invis are practically the same concept just one class has more of it then the other. Whilst I feel that the stealth mechanic at this moment is quite strong for example thieves not breaking stealth if they fail an ability like backstab where any other class would be punished for a failed attack with the cooldown. However i feel stealth is a nice mechanic and is quite generic throught the MMO genre, it’s just the GW2 version needs a few tweaks.

4: The only thing i can agree with at the moment is that conditions are very much fire and forget and don;t feel they have a great importance or even people fail to notice them in the first place.
A good example of importance of conditions as much as i’d not like to refer to, however in WoW if a Warlock, mage, Ele shaman were focusing you in arena’s or BG’s you were very aware of specific debuffs on you or your team mates as they could be potentially game changing if left unattended. Where as in GW2 you just spam all your abilities get 21 stacks of bleeds and just wait for the Cooldowns to come off to start all over again.

5: I think Team play in GW2 is quite important as if you go up against a decent team in free or paid you require a lot of co-ordination with your team and work together in succeed. Individual Skill is important and always needs to worked on regardless of the game and your individual skill will in turn assist your team. Also as people have already mentioned this game is not based around 1v1 and it should never be.

6: The only thing is feel class abilities is that they have no really importance, they do damage and people are happy with that. However as people have mentioned in other threads things like skill shots and ground targeting abilities should be rewarded for skillful play over the spam and forget abilities. Also there are ultilities that open up a weakness’s like frenzy for warriors with the 50% extra incoming damageand zepher for Rangers ( 0% healing during quickness).

Overall I think the pvp in this game is great and i do enjoy it, but like any new game there are teething problems which at this moment A net are trying to overcome step by step and i still have faith in them to make this game truely great.

Your ideal of PvP sounds like people performing PvE rotations on each other and sounds boring.

Take a look at this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpLexfg_w4Y

Ignoring the actual game this is the kind interaction you want between players during PvP. The things I listed reduce a player’s ability to make the kinds decisions found in the video.

It’s not about removing interesting or fun mechanics and making everyone the same in the name of balance it’s about removing extraneous details that don’t contribute to the overall design goal of competitive play.

Lumines.3916:

Your ideal of PvP sounds like people performing PvE rotations on each other and sounds boring.

I would argue that this is actually how the game currently is.

The current state of PvP involves finding an overpowered build + rotation and using it over and over regardless of the situation.

Boloth.6879:

Take a look at this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpLexfg_w4Y

Ignoring the actual game this is the kind interaction you want between players during PvP. The things I listed reduce a player’s ability to make the kinds decisions found in the video.

It’s not about removing interesting or fun mechanics and making everyone the same in the name of balance it’s about removing extraneous details that don’t contribute to the overall design goal of competitive play.

GW1 was more like that GW2 and all the MMOs I have played are not and never will be.

Yeah a guardian + warrior knocklocked me 100-0% I got my one instant cast fear off thats it…. I think I flooded the forums with necros need stabilitiy without wasting 30 points into DS!!!! posts. It annoying when it happens but at least its not instantly dying to a faceroll thief or mesmer. The rotation takes a little thought its an issue on the one game mode we have if ever we get deathmatch I wont worry about it… also I dont think most people can learn how to do it.

Agreed agreed agreed and that’s why I spend more times in the forums than playing nowadays. Boring unfinished mess is what it is.

I love the part where every point you’ve made is infringed by every esport I’ve seen played on the tournament level.

Dual.8953:

I love the part where every point you’ve made is infringed by every esport I’ve seen played on the tournament level.

Let’s try this another way:

The six items I listed are the leading causes of dominate strategies in video games. For those of you who don’t know dominate strategies are bad design.

And even if GW2 was the most balanced PVP game in the history of ever it’s hard for players and spectators to take it seriously as a competitive game when it allows players to be stunned then one-shotted by an invisible warping opponent, turned into a moa bird then killed by an army of NPCs, be forced to fight against an immovable invincible bunker that reflects damage for free, or require you have your own personal posse of FotM gankers in order to fully experience the game. One reason why PvE is so popular is because PvEers generally don’t have to deal with that kind of stuff.

Can you include these kinds of things in your game? Sure, many designers do, but it would be better if they didn’t because they don’t add anything to competitive play and balancing around them is really, really, really, really hard.

I’ve never seen a game (single or multiplayer) that has been improved thanks to the things I mentioned.

Boloth.6879:

Dual.8953:

I love the part where every point you’ve made is infringed by every esport I’ve seen played on the tournament level.

Let’s try this another way:

The six items I listed are the leading causes of dominate strategies in video games. For those of you who don’t know dominate strategies are bad design.

And even if GW2 was the most balanced PVP game in the history of ever it’s hard for players and spectators to take it seriously as a competitive game when it allows players to be stunned then one-shotted by an invisible warping opponent, turned into a moa bird then killed by an army of NPCs, be forced to fight against an immovable invincible bunker that reflects damage for free, or require you have your own personal posse of FotM gankers in order to fully experience the game. One reason why PvE is so popular is because PvEers generally don’t have to deal with that kind of stuff.

Can you include these kinds of things in your game? Sure, many designers do, but it would be better if they didn’t because they don’t add anything to competitive play and balancing around them is really, really, really, really hard.

I’ve never seen a game (single or multiplayer) that has been improved thanks to the things I mentioned.

The issue I’m having with this is, without those things…well, what do you have? In what way can the game be fun, interesting, and engaging without those things? It certainly seems like, if that game was feasible, it would exist, right? I mean, you’ve described stripping basically all the “Flavor” out of the game, leaving every class exactly the same (Except maybe you get to choose your level of focus in offense, defense, and support). That game sounds a -hell- of a lot easier to program and design than any modern MMO, I’m thinking if someone could make that fun, it’d already exist.

I’d argue against point 6 – everyone pays a price for missing or mis-using a skill – either its on CD, or you spent Initiative, or your locked out of that attunement, etc… Even if an ability makes you completely immune (like say, mist form) using it too early or too late can be the mistake that ends the fight. Maybe I’m not thinking of it in the right light, can you describe something from GW2 you feel is a “Safe” action?

I’d also argue against point 5. If it’s not a team game, why bother making an MMO? Furthermore, I remember (before paid tourneys), when the really strong teams were emerging in free tourneys, they were generally the teams that -knew- how to make use of their combo fields. This is the only MMO I can really think of (of those I’ve played) that encourages team play beyond the normal “Focus fire”, “I’ll use my big CC to stop him” or “Hit the guy when i put the heal debuff on him”. Combo fields encourage you to use them when your team can take advantage of them, rather than just using your abilities as fast as possible.

LoL isn’t balanced, and it isn’t dead like GW2 pvp is. Weird, huh?

Somehow, I feel that OP is alternating between a badly written post with very little reasoning, or a deliberate troll. I would edge towards the former considering that as people have pointed out, LoL, Dota, violate the points that he has made and are wildly successful. Yet, the only point he has against that is that such games “would be better” if they did without. I question the soundness of this logic. OP has give no evidence to support his cause either.

Boloth.6879:

5. Group PvP: PvPers are very selfish people, the only skill they care about is their own. More importantly PvP becomes exponentially harder to balance and less accessible the more players are involved. Unless you’re designing a game like baseball and put strict limits on what players can and can’t do team PvP will not support competitive play.

I’d love to hear what you guys think.

Speak for yourself. Look at the top competitive teams and they are ALL about teamwork. i think this says more about you than anyone else.

evilapprentice.6379:

Boloth.6879:

Dual.8953:

I love the part where every point you’ve made is infringed by every esport I’ve seen played on the tournament level.

Let’s try this another way:

The six items I listed are the leading causes of dominate strategies in video games. For those of you who don’t know dominate strategies are bad design.

And even if GW2 was the most balanced PVP game in the history of ever it’s hard for players and spectators to take it seriously as a competitive game when it allows players to be stunned then one-shotted by an invisible warping opponent, turned into a moa bird then killed by an army of NPCs, be forced to fight against an immovable invincible bunker that reflects damage for free, or require you have your own personal posse of FotM gankers in order to fully experience the game. One reason why PvE is so popular is because PvEers generally don’t have to deal with that kind of stuff.

Can you include these kinds of things in your game? Sure, many designers do, but it would be better if they didn’t because they don’t add anything to competitive play and balancing around them is really, really, really, really hard.

I’ve never seen a game (single or multiplayer) that has been improved thanks to the things I mentioned.

The issue I’m having with this is, without those things…well, what do you have? In what way can the game be fun, interesting, and engaging without those things? It certainly seems like, if that game was feasible, it would exist, right? I mean, you’ve described stripping basically all the “Flavor” out of the game, leaving every class exactly the same (Except maybe you get to choose your level of focus in offense, defense, and support). That game sounds a -hell- of a lot easier to program and design than any modern MMO, I’m thinking if someone could make that fun, it’d already exist.

I’d argue against point 6 – everyone pays a price for missing or mis-using a skill – either its on CD, or you spent Initiative, or your locked out of that attunement, etc… Even if an ability makes you completely immune (like say, mist form) using it too early or too late can be the mistake that ends the fight. Maybe I’m not thinking of it in the right light, can you describe something from GW2 you feel is a “Safe” action?

I’d also argue against point 5. If it’s not a team game, why bother making an MMO? Furthermore, I remember (before paid tourneys), when the really strong teams were emerging in free tourneys, they were generally the teams that -knew- how to make use of their combo fields. This is the only MMO I can really think of (of those I’ve played) that encourages team play beyond the normal “Focus fire”, “I’ll use my big CC to stop him” or “Hit the guy when i put the heal debuff on him”. Combo fields encourage you to use them when your team can take advantage of them, rather than just using your abilities as fast as possible.

Many games exist that have unique and interesting options without using the things I mentioned. Check out games like Street Fighter IV, Ultimate Marvel Vs. Capcom 3, David Sirlin’s Yomi, Pokemon, and DCUO (last I remember anyway haven’t played it in forever).

Remember it’s not the mechanics that matter in game design it’s the decisions you get make with them. You don’t want to add mechanics that limit player interaction or depth even if they are “fun”.

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/counter-play

Option safety has more to do with how players can (or can’t) interact with their opponent’s decisions.

Using GW2 as an example a warrior’s Kill Shot and Necro’s Death Shroud and corruption skills are unsafe moves, use them at the wrong time and your opponent can use it to their advantage.

Examples of safe options include mesmer, thief, and guardian skills and most profession’s “1” attack. Even if you know they’re coming you can’t stop them and even if you dodge or negate them in some way you can’t really gain a meaningful advantage from doing so.

The main problem with group PvP is once you start adding more players the game becomes less about player interaction and more about assist train optimization or abusing some kind of synchronized rotation. Sure in small group encounters you can get good interaction with players trying to out think each other’s moves, but once you start getting to more than three players per team balance starts getting harder to pull off and if the game system isn’t specifically designed to support it the game will become less about team play and more about zerging.

Lastly most players just don’t have access to an organized pvp team and it does no good to design around a game mode that most people can’t or won’t play.

Remember the 40 man PvE raids from vanilla WoW and how players complained about how mindless and exclusive they were? It’s the same concept in group PvP.

Boloth, I’ve managed to find your version of PvP > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBHTtu3BqYA&t=0m9s

Seriously though, I don’t agree with any of your suggestions, nor do I understand the logic behind them. Your reasoning is nothing more than, “because I said so.”