Guild Wars 2

Just recently saw this video of J. Sharp talking about GW2 PvP (link below):
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/76392-state-of-the-game-discussion-now-available/

Just want to comment on a few things, because he seems like a guy that looks at things quite systematically & reasonably. Hopefully, he’ll get what I’m saying if he reads this.

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First of all, let’s get some hate for the fun of it. I don’t play GW2 PvP… so hey, if you’re not reading this because of curiosity then feel free to leave.

I’m posting this purely based on the experience that I’ve played alot of games which requires thinking, skills, and most importantly involved competitiveness (played Dota 2, SC2, scrimmed in TF2, League of legends, online tetris, etc.). By no means am I close to be a top player in any of those games, but I’ve always been in the mix of pressure-cooking ‘competitive’ matches, and quite frankly – that’s the one thing I really enjoy about playing all those games, even if I end up losing some tough matches that gets me angry for an hour or so afterward. But that’s why I think PvP game is fun, and that’s why when this game had no match-making…. my dota buds and I didn’t even bother to play this game’s PvP

Now, I’ve also played GW2 mostly for it’s PvE, but I would like to explain another reason why I’ve never got into PvP. There’s a few things that he’s addressed in the video, that I think are good points, but are also reflection of why this game should have been called GW2 The ‘Second’ Beta (cuz it’s definitely still more on growing phase than expansion phase):

1) You have a new game that has no meta, and you need players to develop it. I ask my friends this too; remember how long league was in beta for? (6 months or so?). And what about dota 2? (^ Oh wait, still in beta); so how long do you think it will take until GW2 is ready? (he said to me around next summer, and I agree with that because by then this game’s would have finally gone to eSport and know exactly where it’s at in terms of game competitiveness).

Consider that these are their philosophies (refer to vid): Work in small incremental changes and is a localized company (not big corp). So of course now that we know, players know that stuff happens slow whether they like it or not.

If they had actually called it “GW2’s 2nd Beta”, sure they will get less buyers… but they also wouldn’t get as many people raging, and instead they’ll get people who are actually welling to take on the role of helping solidfy the meta game, instead of quitting then trolling on the forum (^ cough -> me).

I remember that when League was still in Beta, a fed pantheon could penta kill a team hiding in the fountain^…. but just look at how many players are still playing LoL (almost nobody gave a kittens that it happened, cuz it’s a beta & they all know nobody knows wtf is going on except ‘wait for that OP strat to get balanced’). And that’s what’s exactly happening in GW2, except the problem/difference with this whole thing again is; you sold the game called Guild Wars 2 ’ ’ <- (nothing after), plus people knew it had 4 months of beta already. Maybe to the original GW fans who knew about your work-style… but to other players from other games like I am from; it was definitely not clear that GW2 was still just a game finding it’s balanced meta game.

This game’s combat style is definitely striving to be an actually skill based MMO… but how long is going to take? ^ Oh wait, now we know it’s got to go through all those meta-game testing like leagues…. took them 1 year to get into competitive gaming, and it’s dedicated to PVP (GW2 has PVE as well!).

Dude, that’s like having a film’s starting credit roll out for 10 mins in the beginning of a movie instead of just a min or so. This all is very very bad timing, whether you like to believe it or not; it truthfully is.

2) Builds. Builds, builds, builds, builds, builds, builds, and builds. One set of new builds for each class #PleaseDevs!
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Even though I have only experience building a Mesmer in PVE, my observation was that after fiddling around the builds…. I knew that the complexity of one class in this game = maybe 2 heroes or less in league (I’m including the class combinations from having items in league).

If anyone strongly disagree, please educate me. PM FluffyDoe (and I mean literally, teach me ‘how to play GW2 with high level of skills’).

And lets not conclude the fact that casual players can’t understand complex skills. They can, but you just got to give them a guide to do so. Get them instructions to do what you gotta do… eventually any player would get it. Except, none of that exists in GW2 sadly; it’s like playing GW1 PvP all over again, where you only want that small group of people who are localized to your thinking, and takes forever to get some basic guides out to the public due to unstable stat changes ( stat change, build entirely changes = stat oriented = BAD!). The whole talk of “play the game the way you want to play it”, that should be a forbidden statement to be used for GW2’s PvP right now.

Plus, any players who’s played lots of different online strategy games would knows… the starting point of these type of game is about positioning, but at a higher level it’s more about anticipations strategies. GW2 seems to put too much gameplay into anticipations strategies and not the complexity of positioning; like in the video, players complaining that AoE is OP against players when they try to revive… well, that’s why it’s a MEHCANICS ISSUE and NOT A STAT PROBLEM; either it will always either do too much damage, or do too less damage (it’s a linear mechanics). The only way then to ACTUALLY fix it is to add a ‘catch’ to it

Changing the AOE Damage Scale from 75% to 85% is NOT a fix for gods sake, because the problem is the fact that both players are helpless to AoE; “Being helpless against AoE is the issue”.

Suggestion: When a person is being healed… he can utilize the skills of that person who’s healing him/her so that that’ll make the scenarios of downs/reviving way more interesting.

In summary, what I see happening with my eyes in GW2 are the following:

1) Anet making small increments of changes that impacts the top players, but not necessary getting back feedback directly from them (because noob players have no idea wtf they mean, and when the patche get posted they just post on forums with silly complaints to make it take longer for you to extract accurate feedbacks, cuz like J. Sharp said – they take BOTH feedbacks from the two tier groups).

2) Unefficient development of the Meta Game, where Anet has been doing too much datas collections and not enough data accuracy trials. For Mr. Sharp, maybe you should think about this: If you are in the progress region of Zone A, making carefully small changes will only keep you around Zone A. At some point, you would eventually finish progressing through Zone A, but you’ve pretty much left the rest of Zone B, Zone C, and basically other zones where it was 2 months ago. Sir, that is not your so called 80% perfection philosphy, that is called “fitting things into the buisness model”, which is just what every other MMO company is doing.

I’ve gone to engineering school, and the way that you describe how you guys execute stuff… that’s too much thinking in terms of combintorics logic and not sequential logic; you’re only thinking about what you’re doing now vs. what you’re getting, and not considering the previous states that are relevant to how things changes in the future.

I’m saying this because you did not implement match making into GW2 when it launched, which I ripped my hair out thinking about it, because it would have got you more accurate datas, more datas (because you can collect datas from more matches if many people still played in PvP), and etc. Since this game’s combat system seems to be built mainly around PvP, how can match-making ever be not the first thing on the list, until now two months after the game’s launched?

I think I get what you’re saying, but for the most part I disagree. Are you fairly new to the MMO genre?

I asked this because a MMORPG is to never be truly reviewed for at least a year. While sites do it anyway, you can’t have high expectations until a year later. The first year is always the “growing” phase.

A beta is about testing. This is not about testing anything. Devs must learn their real community(not those that just pre-ordered the game), then evolve their plans to fit the communities interests. Lastly, prioritize what they have on the new list based on a number of internal factors.

Akumu.7238:

I think I get what you’re saying, but for the most part I disagree. Are you fairly new to the MMO genre?

I asked this because a MMORPG is to never be truly reviewed for at least a year. While sites do it anyway, you can’t have high expectations until a year later. The first year is always the “growing” phase.

A beta is about testing. This is not about testing anything. Devs must learn their community(not some people that just pre-ordered the game). Then evolve their plans to fit the communities interests. Then prioritize what they have on the new list based on a number of internal factors.

Well, look at the major issues that they’re having. Those were pretty much issues that could be easily forseen…. ie.

No match-making causes no competitve play causes a lot of PvP player to leave PvP?

Letting players play in 5 man que helps you develop your meta game significantly quicker than players playing in random pub games?

Mr. Sharp IS a PVP expert isn’t he? No offense. I get what he’s saying with the whole ‘doing things by a systematic process’ (which engineering school doesn’t teach that type of thinking?), but seriously you’re going to say that: they thought matchmaking has a prioritization level of 3 months after launch?

I think they thought if they put PvP players in the same room, that the majority of players will figure everything out themselves (the meta game, the teamwork, the roles, etc.). Boy, that was a gamble~

Again don’t like it you have every right to leave.

Jestersmiles.4365:

Again don’t like it you have every right to leave.

How does that make any sense whatsoever considering people have paid for this and the ones that haven’t touched PvE at all (like me) might feel like they’ve been heavily ripped off.

As a paying customer i have every right to stay and complain.

There no subscription , you can come back when the features you want are implemented. Yes you do have a right to be angry , I know how you feel. I came here to GvG, the kitten mode is not even in the game yet but since there no sub I can just stop and come back when it implemented. What I said makes perfect sense.

FluffyDoe.7539:

I think they just took matchmaking for granted. I think that’s what happened.

I think they are a small company that did what they could in time. They are given money to in return make a profit from releasing a product by a certain time. MMOs are usually only in development for around 5 years. Building what’s under the hood eats up a lot of that time.

Could they have added matchmaking? sure. However, what else and how much content/features would be missing from the game to get it by release? WvW has 3/4 maps that are the same, little depth, and is a massive gold sink. Despite being heavily promoted during GW2 interviews. PvE could also have more dungeons or big raids.

All areas could have had “MOAR NAO!”, but how far could they spread thin until they completely destroyed the game. Again, they are not a massive company. Being biased to one mode of content doesn’t make the other modes a lesser priority. If this game had only SPvP to worry about then I would agree.

edit: As the above poster stated you can always just take a break. There is no sub so there is nothing “forcing” you to stay until the features are in.

Jestersmiles.4365:

There no subscription , you can come back when the features you want implemented. Yes you do have a right to be angry , I know how you feel. I came here to GvG, the kitten mode is not even in the game yet but since thete no sub I can just stop and come back when it implemented. What I said makes perfect sense.

It does the way you put it,until they release most features they should have added since launch as a payable DLC and your theory collapses under its own weight.I would rather pay monthly (i don’t care my bank balance is doing well atm) and gradually get what i came for rather than…well hopefully it won’t happen but hey let’s observe and see.

Also,i am not angry,it’s a game kitten However,i am fairly disappointed,mostly with myself having fallen into this.

Akumu.7238:

Are you fairly new to the MMO genre?

Are you? I ask this because there are numerous MMOs that have launched a half finished product and have paid the price for that and never recovered.

Jestersmiles.4365:

There no subscription , you can come back when the features you want…

Doesn’t matter if there is no sub, I can go back to any game sub or not (most sub games have free trials anyway and forums where you can find out if the issues you had with the game have been resolved), but the reality is most people don’t go back to games they’ve had bad experiences with, once you lose players it is very difficult to get them back, not having a sub doesn’t change that.

Sylosi.6503:

Akumu.7238:

Are you fairly new to the MMO genre?

Are you? I ask this because there are numerous MMOs that have launched a half finished product and have paid the price for that and never recovered.

Are you serious with this one? PLENTY of MMOs have a lot more a year later, then what is released at launched. Most MMOs started off too kitten buggy to even play yet still became a success. Why do you think SWTOR was the “smoothest” launch of a MMO despite still having issues? MMO launches were horrible days in gaming.

GW2 is far from “half finished”, stop being in denial. SWTOR was/is half finished if you needed a real example. Again, Just because you are biased to one mode of content doesn’t make the others lesser in comparison. You are getting your features, so chill.

Also, it’s not difficult to get players back when there is no sub. The only thing you have left to lose is hard drive space. That’s if you even uninstalled it in the first place… All you need is curiosity to reel them in. The game doesn’t suck, it just could use more. That’s what happens during the first year of release.

Akumu.7238:

Are you serious with this one? PLENTY of MMOs have a lot more a year later, then what is released at launched.

Most MMOs have far less population after a year than they do at launch, the only two MMORPGs in the West that have shown periods of long term sustained growth are EVE & WoW.

Akumu.7238:

GW2 is far from “half finished”, stop being in denial. SWTOR was/is half finished if you needed a real example. Again, Just because you are biased to one mode of content doesn’t make the others lesser in comparison. You are getting your features, so chill.

Stop making silly assumptions, I’m not refering simply to sPvP lacking features, I’m refering to many aspects of the game that were half finished:

- Huge number of class skill / trait bugs (far more than there were when I played Rift or LOTRO at launch)
- That they have been so slow to fix the class skill / trait bugs whcih are a fundamental aspect fo the game. (again in stark contrast to the last MMORPG played – Rift who would often patch things the same day and put out multiple patches per week if it was needed)
- Zillions of DE that were bugged, for months…
- Poorly thought out design choices like orbs giving the side already on top, even more of advanatge in WvW or sticking 8 people or maps made for 5 in hot join PvP.
- Culling issues, hacking issues – especially in WvW, that again still have not been fixed.
- And yes lack of features needed to make structured PvP work, in case you haven’t noticed the population dropped through the floor, it has not been a success, for a game that promoted itself as a potential e-sport that is beyond bad.

and so on…

Akumu.7238:

Also, it’s not difficult to get players back when there is no sub. The only thing you have left to lose is hard drive space. That’s if you even uninstalled it in the first place…

Sub is irrelevant, it isn’t a sub that stops people going back to games, most people simply don’t go back to games they have had a bad experience with.

Sylosi.6503:

Most MMOs have far less population after a year than they do at launch, the only two MMORPGs in the West that have shown periods of long term sustained growth are EVE & WoW.

Yes, because they offered very unique experiences. Not many games can compare to the openness and sheer depth of EVE. WoW allowed casuals to enter the MMO genre without wanting to pull their own hair out. However, no MMO will ever release with the amount of content that WoW has built over the years. Players set themselves up for failure when they hype up a game expecting EVERYTHING to be in or working at 100%. The game has only been out for 3 months.

A MMO doesn’t need a constantly rising playerbase, just a strong consistent one. That’s how MMOs were developed until everyone decided they want to try and steal WoW’s playerbase.

Sylosi.6503:

Stop making silly assumptions, I’m not refering simply to sPvP lacking features, I’m refering to many aspects of the game that were half finished:

- Huge number of class skill / trait bugs (far more than there were when I played Rift or LOTRO at launch)
- That they have been so slow to fix the class skill / trait bugs whcih are a fundamental aspect fo the game. (again in stark contrast to the last MMORPG played – Rift who would often patch things the same day and put out multiple patches per week if it was needed)
- Zillions of DE that were bugged, for months…
- Poorly thought out design choices like orbs giving the side already on top, even more of advanatge in WvW or sticking 8 people or maps made for 5 in hot join PvP.
- Culling issues, hacking issues – especially in WvW, that again still have not been fixed.
- And yes lack of features needed to make structured PvP work, in case you haven’t noticed the population dropped through the floor, it has not been a success, for a game that promoted itself as a potential e-sport that is beyond bad.

and so on…

Again, all MMOs have their issues. Neither is perfect regardless how many years are in development. What Devs didn’t make bad design choices? Both WoW, EVE, and others have had their share. Even LOTRO went f2p and rift had to recover from heavy sub losses. Some of you need to chill. Anyone could go through MMO history and write a long list of problems a game has had, despite being a success today.

Sylosi.6503:

Sub is irrelevant, it isn’t a sub that stops people going back to games, most people simply don’t go back to games they have had a bad experience with.

Do you think the average player has money flowing from their bum? A sub is a gate that the average player have to think about going through. If there is no gate, there isn’t much to think about.

Yes, even games with subs have disappointed players return because of curiosity. The lack of sub just makes it easier for them to decide. So sub or no sub does have some relevance.

Akumu.7238:

Do you think the average player has money flowing from their bum?

Sorry but that is silly.Anyone anywhere in EU/US should have £10 a month to spare,especially considering you need a pretty decent PC to run this game.Chances are you won’t miss that monthly amount too much.Successful free games with item shops nowdays actually make more money statistically,because people are too lazy/busy to farm for items therefore prefer to buy them.

The fact that most games follow that route at the moment actually proves that the average gamer has money flowing from their bum!

kittenon.8572:

Akumu.7238:

Do you think the average player has money flowing from their bum?

Sorry but that is silly.Anyone anywhere in EU/US should have £10 a month to spare,especially considering you need a pretty decent PC to run this game.Chances are you won’t miss that monthly amount too much.Successful free games with item shops nowdays actually make more money statistically,because people are too lazy/busy to farm for items therefore prefer to buy them.

The fact that most games follow that route at the moment actually proves that the average gamer has money flowing from their bum!

Would you quickly pay someone to kick you in the nuts again, after you payed them the first time? Only if you’re a masochist.

Paying for what you enjoy and paying for a previous disappointment is not the same. Though the average person makes more, that doesn’t mean prices haven’t increased for everything else. 25 cent bag of chips are now 50 cents. 50 cent items have went up to .75/1 dollar(among other increases over the years). Nobody is going to just willingly throw away money and gain nothing from it. If that was the case they would donate it to charity.

Everything you wrote was about someone paying for a service they experienced and enjoy. So why not take away from your splurge money and get a service that will guarantee happiness?

Akumu.7238:

A MMO doesn’t need a constantly rising playerbase, just a strong consistent one. That’s how MMOs were developed until everyone decided they want to try and steal WoW’s playerbase.

Yes and no, games don’t need a constantly rising playerbase, however if they have ambitions to be an e-sport they need a certain level of playerbase (and interest) for that, currently GW2 is a million miles away from that level of playerbase adn interest, and the sPvP playerbase has actually dropped faster than the equivalent PvP populations in games considered “PvE MMORPGs”.

And yes you don’t need something the size of WoW to be successful, but there is something quite wrong with the MMORPG sector (at least in the West) in that it is virtually stagnant, that every new release seems to lose the vast majority of their population in a year, why are there no games with a middling long term population of say 3m players?

In regard to howMMOs used to be developed, I’d suggest in relative terms if you consider how many more people have access to online games / internet these days, that games like EQ or DAoC were much more successful than all modern MMOs except WoW.

Either way, I’m pretty sure the aim of Anet/NCSoft was not to have a game they were promoting as an e-sport to have people in NA complaining they couldn’t get a tPvP paid match off-peak after just 3 months nor that at 2pm GMT on a Sunday that GW2 would be sitting at 43rd place on Twitch with 104 viewers.

Akumu.7238:

Again, all MMOs have their issues. Neither is perfect regardless how many years are in development. What Devs didn’t make bad design choices?

Excuses, just because no MMOs are perfect on launch does not mean they were all equally flawed on launch, GW2 has been the most unfinshed / bug-ridden big name MMORPG I have ever played on launch. (note: I did not try SWTOR or Warhammer)

In GW2’s case it is made worse by the fact they kept telling everyone “when it’s ready”, becasue they were not going to make the same mistakes as other MMOs…

Akumu.7238:

Do you think the average player has money flowing from their bum? A sub is a gate that the average player have to think about going through. If there is no gate, there isn’t much to think about.

Yes, even games with subs have disappointed players return because of curiosity. The lack of sub just makes it easier for them to decide. So sub or no sub does have some relevance.

A sub is no gate at all for most of us in the EU, NA, Australia, Japan, etc, especially when to try a game again it only requires a sub for one month, or a free trial account, or a free 3 days (such as ex-Rift players get offered), etc…

Nor that you even have to try the game in most cases, most people leave becasue of certain issues they have with a game, most times it is pretty clear from a bit of research on forums as to whether the game in question has addressed these issues or not.

In terms of MMORPGs the real gate is vertical progression, the thought of going back and having to catch up is far more off putting, GW2 had this advantage and threw it away (outside of sPvP).

I’d also suggest for many if they leave the game on bad terms, i.e – they no longer trust the publisher/developer, etc, then again things like that are far more of a issue in regard to ever coming back.

But like I said most people don’t go back to games they had a bad experience with at all, most people only go back to games they never really leave, which is typical of WoW, a game with a sub.

Sylosi.6503:

But like I said most people don’t go back to games they had a bad experience with at all, most people only go back to games they never really leave, which is typical of WoW, a game with a sub.

Yes, that’s what I meant. But I think the bad experience came from the fact that it was too much confusion & zero response from Anet in the beginning.

I think if they had at least a proper match-making system at launch, most players who likes GW2 PvP could have played with guildies, and turn this meta development phase into less of a ‘stomp fest’ for those players.

I think most player can comprehend a game still being in meta-development phase a few months after launch; but not the fact even after a 4 months beta phase period that there still isn’t a proper ranking/que system that puts you into an organized team match and to give a stability for having a ‘consistent gameplay experience’. Most PvP players I know that quit the game… told me that the PvP pub games in GW2 is not fun at all, because you never get to know where you are in terms of skill level.

If you want to know how good you’re doing, you had to have:
1) A team of players that have strong verbal communication, because at that earlier phase where nobody knew what strong roles there were in PvP… you had to rely on mic to efficiently communicate in thse super large PvP maps.
2) A team of players that have tight grouping schedule (so a highly organized team).
3) A team that wasn’t going to quit after a few fail trials and are determined to finding the best optimal build.

But we all know that the majority of players can’t meet these requirements in reality, so those are the players you lose out.

And let’s be realistic; now after 3 months without any proper ranking, only the few very organized teams who plays in paid tournaments have full understanding of the game’s meta…. (what’s OP and what isn’t), and that speaks volume to the amount of information that Anet has given to players who needs a guideline to playing these types of skill-based game.

Seriously, not everyone can sit there 7-9 hours a day perfecting their strats. /class roles in PvP game with organized team members (those are just how the hardcore teams do it…. not how the majority of players do it), but sadly that’s like the fastest way atm to improve in PvP (7-9 hours a day, geebus).