Guild Wars 2

Reading here, would seem fights bigger than 5 people are considered zergs, a three flag map can only support 5 people(what?!), and everybody’s more concerned about balance with 5 people or less.

To me, I’m concerned why the maps and the game aren’t considered to be able to support fun fights with two groups or so when even WoW managed it alright most of the time?

Should I run for it now? If the folks here get their way it seems we are going to end up with just Arena-style matches in PvP…

This post made my day.
I suggest you try here:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv

Well it sorta feels weird singing the praises of a mostly dead game (Warhammer) but the fact is playing a few days of PvP in this game just makes me long for Warhammer Scenarios and wish things could be different. cries

I played 12v12 scenarios there constantly even with all the typical problems (pug vs premade, quitters, balance arguments, wait times when servers were not busy)…but still had a blast. I even had fun in WoW scenarios even though I felt it was a bit button-mashy and chaotic compared to WAR.

So far this feels kind of like a step down from WoW and I see people cheering it in what I personally think’s the wrong direction… putting three flags in a 5v5 map just seems like a total waste of effort to me….that’s just a straight up group vs group fight.

The more people you add to a map the more casual it becomes. In terms of GW2 if you want casual pvp then WvW is what the game offers in that respect. The premise of 5 players in spvp is possibly the only saving grace of the format, as the less the number of players, the more individual skill matters and more than 5 players causes difficulty when forming a group and waiting on people.

Warhammers scenarios were very very casual, sure they were fun but I dont know if I would refer to them as actual “pvp” with the intent of promoting and pushing skill boundaries. Then again GW2 is struggling a bit in that regard to, but still fares better than warhammer when providing challenging pvp.

That’s some BS, please be serious. You think WoW 5-man fights required more skill than DAOC 8-man? Following that logic, I guess solo fights in every game are always the best test of skill.

You’re just valuing skills like mashing buttons and counter-buttons against individual abilities more than skills like positioning and CC and assisting required in bigger fights.

Jackie.1829:

The more people you add to a map the more casual it becomes. In terms of GW2 if you want casual pvp then WvW is what the game offers in that respect. The premise of 5 players in spvp is possibly the only saving grace of the format, as the less the number of players, the more individual skill matters and more than 5 players causes difficulty when forming a group and waiting on people.

Warhammers scenarios were very very casual, sure they were fun but I dont know if I would refer to them as actual “pvp” with the intent of promoting and pushing skill boundaries. Then again GW2 is struggling a bit in that regard to, but still fares better than warhammer when providing challenging pvp.

The dynamics of this 5v5 conquest is cool for tournaments, but short of a voice chat setup group…
It’s just bad.
The balancing around 5v5 made innate synergy between classes near non-existant. GW2 tossed the trinity but didn’t actually replace it with anything to make classes work together… bunkers bunker and roamers roam you can work a team comp to get some synergy in it, but short of that it really isn’t that existant….
That’s why, at least, I think of this games pugging as bad zerging (near all pug play is zerging to some degree), you basically just go out there and solo kill as much stuff as you can with the occasional rez. Working with people (not just next to) isn’t a notable part of the playstyle… it laughably puts tons of emphasis on the spec you run, and balance is one of the worst aspects of the game atm…

WAR SCs promoted and pushed skill boundaries. Sure if you joined after they introduced ranks 80+ or only ran in a heavy-gear premade and macro’d your toon to hell and back, it got allot harder, but short of that it was good for it. The group dynamic gave an extreme room for tactics based on positioning alone.
GW2 has a better base combat setup, don’t get me wrong, and more Esport potential. But is living up to it half, if even that, as well.

And WvW isn’t a replacement for larger scenario play…
They are completely different.
If you’ve played WAR you know that a 12v12 is nothing like RvR (their WvW), at all.

I’ve got to agree that point control has gotten way boring. Basically the maps are just slight variations on Nordenwatch from WAR. With all the game types in WAR one would think ANet could just copy the concept from the other good scenarios like Battle for Praag or even the more basic capture the flag motif of WoW scenarios. I mean these types of games are pretty obvious. Then there’s Mourkain Temple, Tor Anroc, Howling Gorge, it just goes on and on. There is just no reason not to have more maps. ANet has WAR beat by far far far on class balance (even with complaints right now it just is no contest) and general design (dodge plus limited CC makes for a lot more fun than the crowd control and AOE issues that plagued WAR at the beginning). But ANet needs to catch up on maps and go way beyond conquest.

I can’t speak for DAoC but as for WAR and any other MMO pretty much there are dedicated spam healers. This PvP is closer to MOBA style than any MMO I’ve played just due to the absence of the healing spam. Like in MOBAs team fights usually mean someone gets globaled if nuked by the enemy team. I think, as 8v8 seem to show us, that the more you get into fights in this game it just gets chaotic and people die very very very fast. Of course other than a small handfull of extremely defensive builds. I’m just not sure anything bigger than 5v5 will worth well in a game without those Warrior Priests, Rune Priests, Shamans, and Paladins of the MMO world spam healing. I could be wrong, just my initial thoughts reading your post.

DAOC didn’t really have the Scenario System, but you still had 8v8 which would be comparable to 5v5 here, Only it was more about countering your opponent and killing him then standing in a little circle.. You also knew who the good groups were because you saw their kill spam in the entire zone… DAOC was just about perfect when it comes to PvP.

Warhammer Online did have a Scenario System, and it had much greater variety and far better maps then GW2…. I’d say other then Huttball from SWTOR (Which is the best PvP Scenario Map in any game i’ve played) Warhammer Online probably had the best maps in an MMO (Though Whitefall was fun in Rift..not the changed versions of the map, the original before all the speedy rogues)

I will say that the World vs World Maps in Guild Wars 2 though are better then Warhammer’s, I like WAR’s maps.. but Guild Wars 2 WvW is superior…It’s Siege Mechanics as well…. Warhammer Onlines Realm Points (Along with DAOC) make it probably better then GW2 though in the end..

DAOC is still the holy grail of PvP in MMO’s though….We got fairly close with GW2, but it’s still not there.. Hopefully ESO will be up to the task.

When fights are balanced 1v1 everything becomes more fun as you scale up into group fights. I love 1v1, and I love group fights, but I hate losing a 1v1 in a group fight because of flawed balance and people exploiting the most overpowered FOTM builds.

1v1 in no game will ever come remotely close to the variables that were involved with 8v8 daoc.

think back for a moment at how GOOD you had to be to run a high end 8v8 group.
if I told you in WoW, we had an 8man group that ccould kill 52 people you would be amazed, but wow is a game where you could out GEAR your opponents and thus hit like a boss mob against greys. Now think about daoc, we had stat CAPS so everyone nomatter what their gear all were capped at the same numbers. so its more closer to this game…. now imagine a group of 8 in this game beating a leigon of 50 in Spvp?

and I always thought i was sooo GOOD at the game plowing over 3 groups of albs…., til echoic torid and sweat would roll over the hill and domolish us :\

part of what made daoc 8v8 so addicting is knowing in 80% of the fights you could have won if someone had done 2-3 things better. where as wow and warhammer you lost and you always knew it was because of gear/ fotm spec beat you.

give me a game where running around circle straifing like a spaz dosent make you win
bunny hopping dosent give you an advantage
everything has a counter
has a stat cap
and has 3 sided pvp
is not heavy on insta cast spells.

and ill be happy.

Well when it comes to “skilled” pvp I think GW1 was the holy grail of MMO pvp. That ladder had 10,000+ guilds competing in GvG actively in its first 2 years, and had a live world championship before esports itself was a thing. Its a bit ironic since its the same devs working on this game and yet the prequel did so many things better. But thats another story.

In the end, this game wont offer 12 man scenarios like WAR did because this just isnt WAR. I mean WAR wasnt that great, if I look back to my play time on my DoK I would just spam that single party heal (khaines embrace I think it was) and that would be enough to compete with the best premades on karak norn, similarly even my white lion on karag azgal was not so challenging, perhaps the highest level of skill on a white lion was knowing when to pounce out of danger, but even that is easy to learn. I mean sure scenarios were “fun” but they werent “competitive”. Anet wants competitive and 12 man matches dont work with the current class balance (no guard or healers). Now whether they succeeded with their goal of 5 man competitive pvp, thats another discussion entirely, I am merely telling you why the idea of scenarios wont work for GW2 as that is what this thread is about.

It was fun in WAR but different games, different mechanics. GW1 GvG was very fun, but I am not sure it could work here so I dont ask for it.

I’d really kill for some different variety on these gw2 maps. I came from warhammer and man i am missing all of those old scenarios. I love that gw2 has better class balance, but i need something different than a 3 flag cap map with pve in the corners. Give me a 5v5 arena(blood bowl) with 3 rounds or something.

“think back for a moment at how GOOD you had to be to run a high end 8v8 group.
if I told you in WoW, we had an 8man group that ccould kill 52 people you would be amazed”

Yeah, 52 was fairly common place as well. There are plenty of videos of 8 people killing over 90.

I remember plenty of 8v8 fights we had that took 15-20 minutes for one side to win as well.

I do not think that any mmo will ever again have effective crowd control and a strong interrupt system. People want to pew pew too much and wont stand for it.

ESO is starting to look to be very very close to DAOC, They are going to have a Realm Rank system, they have the 3 factions, It’s got the hard interrupts and CC… it’s going to be very interesting..

Ohh and no instanced pvp they’ve already said as well..only the RvR

Produced by Matt Firor of DAoC fame. Way to early to know anything but there is a chance…

Acelerion.6820:

Produced by Matt Firor of DAoC fame. Way to early to know anything but there is a chance…

That’s the things they’ve already stated

Will also have 3 Factions of Course, PvE/PVP won’t be separated by gear (SO you have something to do when you don’t feel like doing one or the other), oh and Darkness Falls will be in the game as well, including a few other Smaller Public Dungeons out in the pvp area.

He’s basically getting his wish of making DAOC2 like he wanted.. I believe at one point he actually tried to buy the rights for DAOC.

Acelerion.6820:

I do not think that any mmo will ever again have effective crowd control and a strong interrupt system. People want to pew pew too much and wont stand for it.

DAoC was fun and all, but you could CC people into next week and if I remember correctly there was no defense against it until they added the realm abilities.

Nobody likes to spectate a fight, no matter how much “skill” chain mezzing might add

If you are talking DAoC style then WvW in GW2 does it closer then anygame I have seen its alot better then WAR.

However i agree Spvp and Tpvp for GW2 really does need some work. Not sure how I feel about the total isolation of PvP from WvW/PvE. I could understand it for balancing reason gear etc…. however the classes (like mes) are major unbalanced so I question the reasoning…

I think the PvP being so isolated will kill it because casuals will not do it if you cant get gear you can use outside of PvP and the PvE gear cant be used in it. Worst still for casual players is everyone is Red or Blue there is no real point in gear.

People did Random Area in GW1 for alot of reasons only a few actually grinded it… the majority were casuals that might be doing it for some Z-keys or just for a bit of fun quest etc… At least somethings you did in RA would give you income for PvE or a chance to get good pve gear from z-keys.

Anet really needs to rethink GW2 Spvp and Tpvp.

W2 has this mechanic called rallying, it makes larger fights stupid.

W2 has this mechanic called rallying, it makes larger fights stupid.

Yeah PvP is pretty lame right now until they balance it, maybe make them more 5vs5 or 6vs6

But 8vs8 is too many people in such small areas, most fo the maps the node areas you need to take over are surounded by building, walls, entrapments so you have to almost be standing on each other, so 8vs8 in 1 small area is chaos.

Hufflepuffer.4201:

Acelerion.6820:

I do not think that any mmo will ever again have effective crowd control and a strong interrupt system. People want to pew pew too much and wont stand for it.

DAoC was fun and all, but you could CC people into next week and if I remember correctly there was no defense against it until they added the realm abilities.

Nobody likes to spectate a fight, no matter how much “skill” chain mezzing might add

At release yeah it was overboard with chain cc ect…

It got to a really good place around the time the first expansion was released. There were immunity timers, other classes could cure, and ra’s to reduce duration.

The most effective cc in daoc though was disease (snares) and nearsight (reduced casting range), not of which took control away completely.