Guild Wars 2

TL;DR: It comes down to very different attitudes about PvP. Every player I know who loves Skyhammer or loved Raid on the Capricorn, loved it because they felt the map was fun and interesting. PvE focused player find the fun in the novelity of the experience, the PvP focused player finds the fun in playing and winning on a balanced playing field, they want to walk away knowing they won or lost a fair fight. PvP focused player never wants fun and novelty over balanced playing field. PvP focused player never wants to achieve rank simply by playing enough matches to get to higher divisions. They want the divisions to mean something…. By nature a take-it-serious attitude is a more mature stance and a devil-may-care attitude is more immature. I think that is the dividing line between the PvE and PvE crowd. They both want very different things out of GW2 PvP

I think one of the challenges ArenaNet faces when managing and updating PvP is how to cater to their base (MMO PvE focused players) while also luring in those who just want to PvP. As gamers we are their customers and the PvP side of the game has to take care of the desires of what the majority want.

I know there are competent people at ArenaNet who see what’s going on with LoL, DOTA2, etc.. and they know their game mechanics are much better. Perhaps there are even those who want to do PvP right inside GW2, but I think this delima of serving the PvE crowd is what is holding them back.

What do you think the average PvE focused player wants when they come to PvP? These bullet list are not all encompassing, but I would bet most want the following

• A getaway from their PvE or WvW grind
• Play mechanics and progression that focus on the individual and not the team
• Progression/Rank path with rewards that anyone can achieve with enough grind
• A PvP culture that doesn’t take itself too seriously
• Use of PvE gear (PvE players love gear progression. If you worked 3 months on obtaining that Legendary Greatsword and four months on your Ascended Armor set wouldn’t you want to be able to have it help you kill some less equipt player?)

What does the average PvP focused player want?

• Play mechanics that relay on team strategy for the win, with rarely one or two individual contributions being the deciding factor
• Solo queue split from premade queue for when they don’t want to take it too serious
• Rank/Progression for premade queue that reflects team effort and skill
• Rank/Progression for solo queue that accurately reflects individual contribution
• Rank/Progression that reflects true placement among piers, not something that can just be obtained though grind.
• Ability to watch previous matches of top teams inside the game client, selecting perspective of any player on either team (e.g. what we can do today in Spectate mode for hot-join, just for previous matches)
• Ability to record and replay our matches inside game client and review with team what we we got right/wrong.
• Ability to deselect the sometimes fun to play, but yet unbalanced time waster maps (e.g. Skyhammer) when queuing.
• No gear progression for stats (For PvP players it’s all about balance, not prestige for your PvE grind) but more unique skins exclusively available as awards.

It’s a very different mentality and the game has to cater to one or the other. ArenaNet tried to give both type of players something with HoT

PvE focused crowd got:

• Guild Hall PvP Arena (where PvE gear can be used in PvP)
• League divisions with lock-in up to Ruby (allowing a player to solo queue grind though several divisions)
• Ability to queue up for ranked matches solo (in absence of a solo queue)
• Legendary backpiece made obtainable over several seasons of play, so PvE crowd can eventually have their cookie too.

PvP focused crowd got

• Guild team option and guild team missions
• Guild Challenge Leaderboards
• Diamond and Legendary divisions without tier lock-in (so skill is required not just grind to take you forward in the top divisions)
• Stronghold. MOBA style map for those who want to take team strategy a bit further.

Seems like a win-win on paper, but it wasn’t because they mixed it all together and had opposing ideas. There was also an agenda to push the game to ESL Pro League. In spite of the existing core game classes taking years to properly balance, someone thought that the Elite Specs would not have a major impact on the PvP season. This decision was made knowing the Elite Specs were designed to be OP to push HoT sells. I imagine someone rationalized this with “what better way to get our PvP focused players to upgrade than to realize without the expanshion they can no longer compete”. I fall into the camp that believes they knew what they were doing with the Elite Specs being OP and they planned it that way.

How it played out:

• Solo queue teams (casuals) pitted against full guild team premades, feeding undeserved wins to premades and undeserved losses to solo queue players
• Players realizing quickly they can tank MMR at a new tier lock to increase their chance of winning the five in a row needed to progress.
• The Elite Specs dominate the meta, forcing everyone who plays PvP to give up their favorite build (and in some cases favorite class) in order to be competitive
• Pro players finding the greatest utility in the Elite Specs and the meta reduced down to only four classes and four builds (effectively bringing back “build wars” as we’ve never seen it before in GW2)
• ESL Pro team members publicly trashing the league system and new meta in their private streams
• ESL Pro teams rage quitting early match
• ESL Pro team members attempting to solo queue ranked and publicly resorting to tactics others get banned for (purposely going AFK on steam to lower MMR)

It’s a huge mess. What I would like is for ArenaNet to own it’s failure on this. They should shut the ranked season down altogether, but they won’t do that because that would be putting the integrity of PvP in game over the fun and novelity of PvP (remember their main revenue stream comes from the PvE focused crowd who value fun and novelty over tack-it-serious play).

So how would you fix it? What would you like to see ArenaNet do?

You want the direct opposite of what this game was ment to be, and the reason most players play it.

LastHope.8127:

You want the direct opposite of what this game was ment to be, and the reason most players play it.

I am well aware that the overwelming majority of the GW2 player base is PvE focused and that the PvP side of the game is a side show act. Look at the top streamers for PvE in this game and the top content creators! Watch the official content ANet creates like Guild Chat. No on is taking any aspect of the game seriously. The problem is when you have that mentality, balance goes out the window. These things are all secondary. The game studio’s stance becomes “well our players are signing in for the social aspect anyway, so it doesn’t matter if some things are broken”.

The problem is ArenaNet made a bold move to try and take the PvP side of the game E-sport. That’s what got my attention and made me come back. I guess the joke is on those of us who should have known PvP would have been executed in a way to always serve the MMO, PvE focused crowd over anyone else.

My recommendation would be for ArenaNet to build a seperate game client for PvP or just make a new game using the same weapon/utility skill “build” mechanics and GW2 engine just focus it on PvP and make it a very lightweight download, PvP feature rich, no-holds-bared serious PvP game. I honestly think that is the only solution that will ever cater to the PvP focused players.

Honestly, there’s so many players that both PvE and PvP that it’s generally a false dichotomy to analyze the game from a PvEer vs PvPer perspective.

Dahkeus.8243:

Honestly, there’s so many players that both PvE and PvP that it’s generally a false dichotomy to analyze the game from a PvEer vs PvPer perspective.

I agree that many players PvE and PvP, but since most of those players put their focus on PvE or WvW and not sPvP it is a valid dichotomy. When I say “PvP focused” I’m talking about those who sped 90% or more of their time in sPvP. That is very small percentage of the GW2 community and the game is clearly not designed for them, but in trying to take it E-Sport there is a certain seriousness and balance required that is very counter to the tong-in-cheek, devil may care attitude that persist in every other aspect of the game.

We have this very small player base devoted to sPvP and yet it’s frustrating because we also have the best play mechanics in GW2. The PvP in this game deserves to be something much more than it currently is but it’s held back to cater to the desires of the majority.

SamTheGuardian.2938:

PvP focused player finds the fun in playing and winning on a balanced playing field

AHAHAHAHAHHA.

Sorry, it genuinely made me lauAAHAHAHHAHAHAHHHAHA.

Imo, I would be much happier if ArenaNET dumped eSports and ESL entirely and focused on making the game fun, rather than competitive (this is for pve and pvp).

I’m so sick of all these companies wooing at eSports nowadays when the best competitive game ever: Counter Strike never lifted a single finger to get the following it had. They only made the game fun and the eSports crowd came. The same goes for Smash Bro.

You don’t need to make an eSports scene to have one, and so far it’s shown that it actually hurts your community more to cater to it.

If ArenaNET makes the game fun, eSports will follow after it.

No. There’s no such thing as “PvP-focused players vs PvE-focused players”.

There’s “honorable players who want balanced gameplay vs scum who think anything goes if it gets you the win”. Either can be PvE, PvP, WvW or PvX. One is the kind of people that would stop a conflict with diplomacy or a duel between champions, the second is the kind of people that would turn the Eath into a desolate wasteland with nukes to ‘win’ the conflict, even though by doing that everyone loses.

When something is broken, the first group will rightfully complain, while the second will lie through their teeth in an effort to keep broken things around.

When something broken is addressed, the first group will say either nothing or acknowledge it, the second will whine about losing their unfair advantages with more blatant lies.

MithranArkanere.8957:

No. There’s no such thing as “PvP-focused players vs PvE-focused players”.

There’s “honorable players who want balanced gameplay vs scum who think anything goes if it gets you the win”. Either can be PvE, PvP, WvW or PvX. One is the kind of people that would stop a conflict with diplomacy or a duel between champions, the second is the kind of people that would turn the Eath into a desolate wasteland with nukes to ‘win’ the conflict, even though by doing that everyone loses.

When something is broken, the first group will rightfully complain, while the second will lie through their teeth in an effort to keep broken things around.

When something broken is addressed, the first group will say either nothing or acknowledge it, the second will whine about losing their unfair advantages with more blatant lies.

The point of my post was that the game developer will tend to the needs of it’s primary audience first… If you think players who do nothing but PvP have the same mentality and approach to PvP as the majority PvE players in the game you’re wrong. I’ve outlined the differences I’ve noticed in general way…. I think universally we all want balance and a better meta but the differences really stop there.

SamTheGuardian.2938:

How it played out:

• Solo queue teams (casuals) pitted against full guild team premades, feeding undeserved wins to premades and undeserved losses to solo queue players
• Players realizing quickly they can tank MMR at a new tier lock to increase their chance of winning the five in a row needed to progress.
• The Elite Specs dominate the meta, forcing everyone who plays PvP to give up their favorite build (and in some cases favorite class) in order to be competitive
• Pro players finding the greatest utility in the Elite Specs and the meta reduced down to only four classes and four builds (effectively bringing back “build wars” as we’ve never seen it before in GW2)
• ESL Pro team members publicly trashing the league system and new meta in their private streams
• ESL Pro teams rage quitting early match
• ESL Pro team members attempting to solo queue ranked and publicly resorting to tactics others get banned for (purposely going AFK on steam to lower MMR)

It’s a huge mess. What I would like is for ArenaNet to own it’s failure on this. They should shut the ranked season down altogether, but they won’t do that

Hello, my name is Kaga, and I am what could be considered a pvx player. I main warrior, and when there isn’t new pve content I am a regular of the spvp lobby ( I also occasionally participate and help out with maguuma wvw) . My best “number” is #77 on soloQ and there has been times when I was top percentile on both soloQ and teamQ.

While anet DID do a balance " pass" (mostly because the forumsphere blew up when no balance patch was announced) the pass only barely started digging them out of the hole they are in.

Honestly the way I see it is that while some parts of the season were a success ( mostly at increasing participation) , overall “pro season 1” will be seen as a complete failure on several levels. Until Anet stops hiding, disengages truthiness and starts to get real with us the spvp community will feel rightfully screwed about the whole thing.

1) Anet need to admit they f!@#$ed up. Not only for not doing major balance adjustments before the season, but also for the overall division+MMR weighting involved in the matchmaking, the piploss bugs, and all the other shenadigans we are all angry about.

2) Anet needs to prove they can finally get a clue and learn from their mistakes. They had 2 “test seasons” with invincible turret engineers ( which forced their hand to nerfbat it because all tournament teams were bringing 15-25 turret builds at that point) and yet didn’t clue in that imbalances poison the meta. We all got (rightfully) angry at the start of the season because anet proved ( sadly, once again) that they didn’t learn anything from their test season fiasco.

3) There needs to be a better tournament structure. Not resetting/normalising/readjusting MMR pre-season screwed the vets and not adjusting the division weighting was also a mistake. ( lower divisions should count for a much bigger " slice" of the adjusted matchmaking score)

It hurts to say it, but this is what needs to happen for confidence to return.