Guild Wars 2

As a note this post is namely geared towards pvp.

For some background, I main ranger but play all other classes regularly. After I had my 1 year old son I mainly pvp due to time. I play a lot and have over 5000 hrs on my account, even with my almost a year break. I put this here to let people know what my perspective is and what biases I have.

In terms of pvp, both playing as and fighting power builds feels so much better. With the damage universally lowered I feel that things are more fluid against powe builds and I actually have a few seconds to think and make tactical decisions.

Prior to this, damage was so high (and still can be even in this new meta) that everything was reflexive. If you got jumped by a thief or stunned by a rage warrior, your survival was completely based on muscle memory and hitting your oh god please don’t let me die button. Builds and the meta became a contest of who had more invulnerable, blocks, and dodges because damage was so high that if you had even a slight gap in your defenses, you could be blown up in one combo – even with decent toughness.

This was very bad for the game and also alienated players who had slower reflexes from playing pvp and wvw roaming (where damage is even more out of control due to pve buffs).

I’m glad the devs are noticing this and I think this is what is driving the power curb, which absolutely needed to happen in pvp and that I would argue needs even more universal damage nerfs.

Now let’s talk about conditions. Following this power curb, condition builds were relatively untouched and in some cases (like rev) extremely buffed. The meta is rapidly changing to favor condition meta because it’s simply better.

Now here is how this changes how we play and what existing problems will come up.

1.) Condition is king will kill toughness builds. Taking more vitality is now critical to survival. Pvp build diversity in terms of stats will suffer due to this and many toughness based option will simply die.

2.) Conditions are too easy to apply and stack. Combinations of traits, sigils, and skills allow classes to stack 4-5 different condition types on a target using just one skill. Single cleanses and removals are not enough and there is no time to think and tactically decide what conditions to remove at what time. It’s basically turned into a spam fest where you are in a race with the enemy to see if he can apply faster than you can remove. When you run out of cleansing abilities and the enemy can still process strong condition applications, you die extremely fast. There is no tactical play for removal, it’s all just get it off faster than he can apply and this is very very bad for the game.

3.) The above reality in pvp is that now builds are pidgeoned into multiple skills and traits that either full clear, remove multiple conditions rapidly, or give stealth or evade frames that will avoid condition application completely. This leads to a meta that will stagnate very fast because now classes are pidgeoned into take specific removal skills to be competitive. Rangers will never drop celestial avatars full clear trait and be pidgeoned into wilderness survival for removal to pet or removal in survival skill use. Warriors will never run anything that doesn’t have cleansing ire or berserker stance, perms stealth and permadodge thief will not change, etc. All those traits, sigil, and skills that share slots with the best condition options will never see the light of day and the meta will be just a race between the best removal/avoidance skills vs the fastest applicators. The classes that have the best combination of both will be king.

This concerns me because the above changes in the way we play results in a game that really isn’t as fun as it could be. Yes the patch did the right thing by slaying the one shot kill meta, but with the way conditions work we just traded one bad style of gameplay for another.

Right now it’s hard to discern if things are better or worse.

Respectfully, you are mistaken.

Conditions, if all cleansed away, do no damage. No damage removes the few condition builds from viability and results in buffs to the application of conditions. Essentially, by buffing cleanse you increase the need for conditions to burst down their opponents before a cleanse can be activated.

What you really want is a nerf to cleanse and a corresponding nerf to condition application. Otherwise, you just end up with the same burst meta you dislike so much.

Honestly, the “race to see if you can condition faster than he can cleanse” is the whole fun of being a condition spec. You should always be bringing condition cleanse in your builds – the entire game is based around being able to ignore things like immob and chill and catch your enemy.

As a condition spec there are certain builds i know will gank me 1v1 and kill me, builds i can win against pretty easily (not much condi cleanse or vital), and builds that will give me an honest fight (druids, tempests) to see if i can land my cooldowns in a way that ends with him at 0 condi cleanse and me at 1 condi applicator. Its fun, and a challenge, and most people run condi cleanse anyway.

Conditions are easy to apply but also easy to clean. There’s so much skill/trait/sigil/rune/boon that help to clean/resist conditions 8on yourself and also AoE) that in some situations is really hard to kill someone with conditions.
For that reason a large amount of builds that play condition have to increase the number of conditions they apply just to be able to inflict damage with them. increasing the number of conditions instead of stacks you’re shure that a common clean skill will not reduce to 0 all your damage, making you useless.
That’s the reason that make Burn Guardina one of the worst condition classes ever. If the enemy don’t have condi clear or run out of them you can inflict good damage, otherwise you’re totally unable to inflict any damage at all.

If you want to kill conditions and build diversity, increase the num,ber of condi clean or power up them. But just know that there’s already only few builds that use conditions, everyone that can play as a direct damage play as it because is easier to inflict damage (or at last you’re shure that your damage will fully land and not be reduced to 0 by clean or resistance).

The only way to tone down condition is also reduce condi clean skills.
Condition damage builds Have to be able to kill you, but there’s too much conditions. Then reduce the amount of conditions in the game but also the amount of condi clean, to make them still viable.

Honestly I’m not seeing the condi meta. Warrior is the only class that has switched to condi.

I do wish people would learn the difference between a power and condi build. I’ve called out 4 times in the past two days for being a “low skill condi bad” while running a Paladin’s GS/axe Necro.

Theres a lot of good idea that I agree with:

1.) Splitting cleanses between damaging condition removal and control conditions is a great idea. Cleanses that remove both should be powerful and more rare. This introduces the tactical element of “ok do I choose stop the damage and relinquish control of the fight? Or do I remove the cc and try to kill him before he kills me?”

2.) Application of conditions and cleansing should have higher recharges but be more impactful to reduce spam and promote tactical play. The ability to inflict both damaging conditions and control at the same time should be reserved for higher cd and more powerful skills.

3.) I would change blind not to remove on use of the 1 skill to make it a true control condition. The enemy has to then decide do I give up my auto attack pressure for the duration of the blind or so a sacrifice a more important skill to end it early.

I’m not seeing a condi meta…

What condi meta?

its funny because it doesnt even matter if you run a gaurdian with MAXIMUM coindi clear.

if you fight a necro you will still be completely slathered in condis NO MATTER WHAT

doesnt matter what prof ur playing.

doesnt matter what build youre playing

you will be completely slathered in condis no matter what.

its not fun whatsoever to play against. I barely have time to look at the kittennig screen because im checking to see if i have specific condis that are worth cleansing

league of legends designers made a good point in one of their videos with devs. when you design pvp you not only have to make things fun to play as but fun to play against. gw2 condis is very unfun to play against

i only play gw2 for pve now. gw2 is the best pve game there is but pvp is a joke

pvp is not fun whatsoever.

Envy.1679:

its funny because it doesnt even matter if you run a gaurdian with MAXIMUM [insert damage type here] clear/mitigation.

if you fight a [insert class/build prevalent in mentioned damage type] you will still be completely slathered in [insert damage type] NO MATTER WHAT

doesnt matter what prof ur playing.

doesnt matter what build youre playing

you will be completely slathered in [insert damage type] no matter what.

its not fun whatsoever to play against

i only play gw2 for pve now.

pvp is not fun whatsoever.

It works for just about everything.

Sigmoid.7082:

Envy.1679:

its funny because it doesnt even matter if you run a gaurdian with MAXIMUM [insert damage type here] clear/mitigation.

if you fight a [insert class/build prevalent in mentioned damage type] you will still be completely slathered in [insert damage type] NO MATTER WHAT

doesnt matter what prof ur playing.

doesnt matter what build youre playing

you will be completely slathered in [insert damage type] no matter what.

its not fun whatsoever to play against

i only play gw2 for pve now.

pvp is not fun whatsoever.

It works for just about everything.

theres two damage types.

condi and direct damage.

building vitality/toughness and using boons like protection mitigates direct just fine.

building vitality and using condi cleanse hardly makes a difference to condis.

so no.

Envy.1679:

Sigmoid.7082:

Envy.1679:

its funny because it doesnt even matter if you run a gaurdian with MAXIMUM [insert damage type here] clear/mitigation.

if you fight a [insert class/build prevalent in mentioned damage type] you will still be completely slathered in [insert damage type] NO MATTER WHAT

doesnt matter what prof ur playing.

doesnt matter what build youre playing

you will be completely slathered in [insert damage type] no matter what.

its not fun whatsoever to play against

i only play gw2 for pve now.

pvp is not fun whatsoever.

It works for just about everything.

theres two damage types.

condi and direct damage.

building vitality/toughness and using boons like protection mitigates direct just fine.

building vitality and using condi cleanse hardly makes a difference to condis.

so no.

You can build fully against direct damage and still die to it. Can build fully against codi and still die to them.

Again it pretty much goes both ways.

Envy.1679:

Sigmoid.7082:

Envy.1679:

its funny because it doesnt even matter if you run a gaurdian with MAXIMUM [insert damage type here] clear/mitigation.

if you fight a [insert class/build prevalent in mentioned damage type] you will still be completely slathered in [insert damage type] NO MATTER WHAT

doesnt matter what prof ur playing.

doesnt matter what build youre playing

you will be completely slathered in [insert damage type] no matter what.

its not fun whatsoever to play against

i only play gw2 for pve now.

pvp is not fun whatsoever.

It works for just about everything.

theres two damage types.

condi and direct damage.

building vitality/toughness and using boons like protection mitigates direct just fine.

building vitality and using condi cleanse hardly makes a difference to condis.

so no.

If you want to be totally immune to conditions, that’s not balance, is just a L2P “i don’t want to be killed by conditions!”
Conditions can kill you as direct damage do, just slowly and hardly.

Against every single build in this game, if I lose, I last longer against a condition build than against a direct damage build.
Direct damage still kill you easier and faster than conditions. if it is not, then the enemy is using a hybrid build and killing you with both direct and condition damage.

Conditions have to be able to kill you and you can’t clean them all. Just learn to clean the “condibomb” if the class is able to make one, then all the other damage is a normal damage. Just wayt to clean more stacks instead of clean the first 2 and die against the other 20

Silv.9207:

Envy.1679:

Sigmoid.7082:

Envy.1679:

its funny because it doesnt even matter if you run a gaurdian with MAXIMUM [insert damage type here] clear/mitigation.

if you fight a [insert class/build prevalent in mentioned damage type] you will still be completely slathered in [insert damage type] NO MATTER WHAT

doesnt matter what prof ur playing.

doesnt matter what build youre playing

you will be completely slathered in [insert damage type] no matter what.

its not fun whatsoever to play against

i only play gw2 for pve now.

pvp is not fun whatsoever.

It works for just about everything.

theres two damage types.

condi and direct damage.

building vitality/toughness and using boons like protection mitigates direct just fine.

building vitality and using condi cleanse hardly makes a difference to condis.

so no.

If you want to be totally immune to conditions, that’s not balance, is just a L2P “i don’t want to be killed by conditions!”
Conditions can kill you as direct damage do, just slowly and hardly.

Against every single build in this game, if I lose, I last longer against a condition build than against a direct damage build.
Direct damage still kill you easier and faster than conditions. if it is not, then the enemy is using a hybrid build and killing you with both direct and condition damage.

Conditions have to be able to kill you and you can’t clean them all. Just learn to clean the “condibomb” if the class is able to make one, then all the other damage is a normal damage. Just wayt to clean more stacks instead of clean the first 2 and die against the other 20

I literally fought a necro today on my gaurdian.

I had the talent to turn condi to boon

i had soldier runes

i had 3 shouts.

i had trait that remove condi every 10 second

i had heal skill remove condi every 10 second

i had convert to boon utility skill

I still was kittennig slathered in condis even after i countered his corrupt boon with with convert condi skill and shouts

also, the entire fight i have to watch my condi bar to make sure im only using shout to cleanse important condi, which makes my awareness go down. cant watch the necro for skill cues or even know other enemy around until theyre already attacking me thanks to this stupid shlt

it is either run or die against GOOD condi necro if its 1v1

guild wars 2 combat system for PVP has been flawed since its conception and its the main reason why gw2 pvp isnt fun for most people

that said its certainly fun to play as and like i already said its great for PVE. you can defend it for pvp but the fact that the pvp population is what it is will not agree with you.

So you used a boon spamming build against a boon corruption build and expected to not have to pay any attention to your condition cleanse?

sry but i think the op mistaken little bit

vitality amulets already in use no matter to conditions

toughness amulets never in used in the last 3 seasons as vitality much needed.

also condi bomb can be handled as team need to have some support like ele and now maybe revenant with the new power cleanse elite

the idea is to build 5 man team with a significant role to each other

if you run without support you will die to power or condi eitehr way if the enemy tema do got support due to over sustain the fight.

the pvp game is not only 1v1 its also team v team

saerni.2584:

So you used a boon spamming build against a boon corruption build and expected to not have to pay any attention to your condition cleanse?

shouts remove condis from me. 2 at a time. i only used them after i had condis. and then when i had a bunch of boons they corrupted them. and after that i used convert to boon skill to get rid of all of them, but then they just reaplied all the condis anyway because thats what im complaining about. You kids need to stop trying to poke holes in legitimate complaints and defending kittene mechanics just because you think youre better than everybody who complains. Youre not.

it doesnt matter what prof or what class you play. you will get slathered with condis despite even building 100% maximum condi cleanse/remove/transfer whatever because thats how guild wars 2 is.

The only way they can be handled is if a team aoe cleanses constantly or just cc locks/kills the caster but that alone tells you that its kittening stupid.

It sounds like you were generating a lot of boons if boon corruption was that big of an issue. It really sounds like a hard counter issue (boon reliant build vs. and anti-boon build).

The necro must also have been hitting you a lot for those conditions to constantly overwhelm you. You said you had an issue watching your condition bar and the necros “tells” but if you just watched the tells to avoid his skills…you wouldn’t need to watch your condition bar as much.

So it sounded like to me a combination of needing to focus on blocking his skills and being countered by something that should counter you (anti boon beats boon reliant builds).

Envy.1679:

saerni.2584:

So you used a boon spamming build against a boon corruption build and expected to not have to pay any attention to your condition cleanse?

shouts remove condis from me. 2 at a time. i only used them after i had condis. and then when i had a bunch of boons they corrupted them. and after that i used convert to boon skill to get rid of all of them, but then they just reaplied all the condis anyway because thats what im complaining about. You kids need to stop trying to poke holes in legitimate complaints and defending kittene mechanics just because you think youre better than everybody who complains. Youre not.

You undermine your argument by referring to people who disagree as kids in an attempt to belittle/make yourself sound superior.

Secondly necromancers generally have a LOT of corruption and tend to destroy boon heavy classes easily. Necro have 4 traits, 5 weapon skills, and 2 utilities that turn boons into conditions. Two of which are pulsing fields. Two of these traits cause another 2~4 skills/utilities to corrupt boons. They also have 4 traits that cause conditions to cause other conditions but only 1 is damaging.

The rune of the solider removes conditions therefore will always remove the last condition applied to you. Pure of Voice converts conditions to boons and therefore is completely random like all conversions are. It means its fairly pot luck what you get. Not only that but the fact it generates boons is an issue since they again can be converted back into conditions. They also arent going to stop attacking you..its like saying someone should stop using direct damage skills after you heal or cast a mitigation skill. they need to, should, and will reapply the conditions because they are trying to kill you.

it doesnt matter what prof or what class you play. you will get slathered with condis despite even building 100% maximum condi cleanse/remove/transfer whatever because thats how guild wars 2 is.

This also applies to direct damage. In this statement the two and their respective methods of reductions are completely interchangeable.

Envy.1679:

I literally fought a necro today on my gaurdian.

I had the talent to turn condi to boon

i had soldier runes

i had 3 shouts.

i had trait that remove condi every 10 second

i had heal skill remove condi every 10 second

i had convert to boon utility skill

I still was kittennig slathered in condis even after i countered his corrupt boon with with convert condi skill and shouts

also, the entire fight i have to watch my condi bar to make sure im only using shout to cleanse important condi, which makes my awareness go down. cant watch the necro for skill cues or even know other enemy around until theyre already attacking me thanks to this stupid shlt

it is either run or die against GOOD condi necro if its 1v1

guild wars 2 combat system for PVP has been flawed since its conception and its the main reason why gw2 pvp isnt fun for most people

that said its certainly fun to play as and like i already said its great for PVE. you can defend it for pvp but the fact that the pvp population is what it is will not agree with you.

Do you play as a DH or as a core guardian?
Because if you play as a DH and die against a necromancer you’re seriously bad.
But looking to the skills you mentioned you’re using a core build focused on support and boons against a class that ANet chose and fixed only to fight boonspam builds.
A necromancer will always win against a class that spam boons because have a large amount of fuel for his skills and damage.

Also your build seems to be not optimal. Starting by your use of Signet of resolve, that is the worst heal skill in sPvP you can use (1 second of casting easy to see and interrupt) and the choice of your traits and skills, you play an old build good Only in team fight, hoping to fight a Reaper (not only a Necromancer but his Elite Specializzation) that totally counter your entire build, with no offensive utility and maybe not even full offensive weapons.
if you want to kill a necromancer, go in Meditation with GS/Sword+shield(or focus) and burst down the necromancer faster as you can.

If you play a core support build in 1v1 you don’t have to pretend to kill anyone.
No matter what’s your amount of condi clean, if you can’t kill the enemy fast enough you’ll be covered by conditions. And to fight a necromancer spam buun is the worst choice you can do.
Condition damage had been powered up enough to make someone able to kill you with it, then is easy to think that no one is able to totally clean the conditions all the time long. Unless you play a warrior… but that’s another story.

You’re only a big L2P issue, nothing more.

how many class play conditions and how many power ? …. condition is used as meta on 2 class on 9 i think … ( mesmer and rev …. ) some other classes can use it but are not meta… there would be a reason …

Rev doesn’t use condi. Everyone’s just trying it out then after 2-3 matches realize it’s still unplayable and switches back to power.

Silv.9207:

Envy.1679:

I literally fought a necro today on my gaurdian.

I had the talent to turn condi to boon

i had soldier runes

i had 3 shouts.

i had trait that remove condi every 10 second

i had heal skill remove condi every 10 second

i had convert to boon utility skill

I still was kittennig slathered in condis even after i countered his corrupt boon with with convert condi skill and shouts

also, the entire fight i have to watch my condi bar to make sure im only using shout to cleanse important condi, which makes my awareness go down. cant watch the necro for skill cues or even know other enemy around until theyre already attacking me thanks to this stupid shlt

it is either run or die against GOOD condi necro if its 1v1

guild wars 2 combat system for PVP has been flawed since its conception and its the main reason why gw2 pvp isnt fun for most people

that said its certainly fun to play as and like i already said its great for PVE. you can defend it for pvp but the fact that the pvp population is what it is will not agree with you.

Do you play as a DH or as a core guardian?
Because if you play as a DH and die against a necromancer you’re seriously bad.
But looking to the skills you mentioned you’re using a core build focused on support and boons against a class that ANet chose and fixed only to fight boonspam builds.
A necromancer will always win against a class that spam boons because have a large amount of fuel for his skills and damage.

Also your build seems to be not optimal. Starting by your use of Signet of resolve, that is the worst heal skill in sPvP you can use (1 second of casting easy to see and interrupt) and the choice of your traits and skills, you play an old build good Only in team fight, hoping to fight a Reaper (not only a Necromancer but his Elite Specializzation) that totally counter your entire build, with no offensive utility and maybe not even full offensive weapons.
if you want to kill a necromancer, go in Meditation with GS/Sword+shield(or focus) and burst down the necromancer faster as you can.

If you play a core support build in 1v1 you don’t have to pretend to kill anyone.
No matter what’s your amount of condi clean, if you can’t kill the enemy fast enough you’ll be covered by conditions. And to fight a necromancer spam buun is the worst choice you can do.
Condition damage had been powered up enough to make someone able to kill you with it, then is easy to think that no one is able to totally clean the conditions all the time long. Unless you play a warrior… but that’s another story.

You’re only a big L2P issue, nothing more.

Like i said you guys can try to say its specific players who need to learn to play, but the fact is the majority of people who play gw2 dont enjoy pvp because of the issues i bring up.

keep making it seem like its l2p but thats just willful ignorance and not helping anybody except yourself when you want to justify your time spent in pvp. The way condis work is just not fun when you have to play against it in pvp, and i was aware a bunch of kids would try to tell me to l2p if I gave an example of a build. I could have used literally any build and any prof as an example, and people would still tell me to l2p because people have an ego issue where they think anybody who complains about how the game work’s is in fact just bad which isnt the case. Even when I did well in pvp and/or won the game i still didnt have fun.

even if i was bad the facts agree with me, not you. spvp in gw2 is at this point an after thought. not many people actual enjoy it, relative to the amount of people who enjoy wvw and pve. This isnt a coincidence, and that doesnt mean everybody who doesnt enjoy it just needs to learn to play. GW2 would have died almost instantly if it was just spvp, but would still be going as strong as it is with just wvw and pve. spvp is a niche area and many people who play it currently suffer the actual gameplay of it just for achievements and rewards.

Envy, maybe we wrote our reasons wrong, i don’t know, maybe we hurted you unwillingly.

You gave us an explaination of how you feel about conditions and we told you in different manners that conditions are strong and you have to pay really attention and always run with few condi clean (or even more as possible), but that condition builds are really underwelming if compared to power builds. maybe a mesmer can be really strong in condition damage for different reasons (have movement skills, able to breakstun in different ways, different immunity/block skills that grant he time to kill you with conditions, for example) but all the other classes run better in direct damage because, expecially in this meta, direct damage grant a faster and easier kill.

Condition damage can kill you and can be really frustrating lose against something that you continue to strip away from you but continue to afflict you all the time, but for shure condition damage is not the best way to inflict damage in this meta. Maybe 3-4 seasons ago, but for shure not now.

You can say that there’s not enough condition remove skills to grant you a vistory over a condition class, but i can tell you that there’s not even enough protection and block7evade skills to grant you immunity to direct damage.
Actually condition damage and direct damage are two faces of the same coin. You can inflict damage with direct or condition damage, your choice, but you can be able to kill someone with both.
And, you can belive me or not, is easier kill someone with direct damage than with conditions. The reasons are many and if you want I can explain you everything, but i think you’ll not pay attention to all that anyway.
basicly, the simple fast that you can Totally Negate a full condi burst activating a single condi remove skill or using Resistance make conditions a second choice source of damage for every class able to inflict direct damage.

For example, necromancers now play direct damage builds because even them find hard to kill someone with conditions, still if they have a really good condi output. only few play condition builds but in a common sPvP match they find hard to fight, much harder than with a direct damage build.

When we tell you that actually 7 classes over 9 play Direct Damage (and only because the revenant condi got a power up) is not because we are here making a joke of you, but because that’s the truth.
There’s different players out there and everyone chose to play what he want and you can find every class play conditions, but if you look to the 80% of the builds for every class that run around the sPvP are all direct damage classes.

You made an example of your guardian build fight against a necromancer and that’s the worst shenario for the builds you showed up. if you fight the same necromancer with a builds focused more on inflict damage than on spam boon and clean conditions you will win easy against him.

Do you want to kill a condition build? Don’t focus all your resources on clean conditions but focus on clean the burst and kill him fast with direct damage.
the reason is simple: every single condition build have the same weak point: to inflict good damage need to stack conditions. And frequently have only a single burst combo. Then, what you have to do is force the enemy to use his burst bursting him with your combo, clean the stacks and then finish him with your fast damage.
condition damage can seem higher than direct damage but they need time to build up that amount of conditions, if you don’t give them time to do that you’ll win at 100%.

Condition damage is a dangerous shadow that can become the Reaper and kill you, but if you are fast enough you’ll win without too much pain.

I prefer power necro over condi every day. Power necro is by far the stronger build in spvp.

power rev btw, got 1 condi cleanse on 9 s cd and 2 condi cleanses on 15 s cd

Nobody runs power or condi because one is more effective than the other. They play whatever spec grants the most sustain and cleanses while also granting the most synergy. In the case of Mesmers, condi shatter grants the most sustain and also fantastic synergy between traits and utilities. Healing and support specs run power because there’s no amulet with healing and condition damage other than Sage’s, and that’s a hybrid amulet. DHs. run power because longbow is their most powerful weapon and DH offers no real condition synergy. And the synergy through traits doesn’t allow them to spec into Radiance or to use torch because they lose too much sustain. So DH has to run power because it happens to offer the most sustain and synergy. Why power rev over condi rev? Because first, in this case, power actually does do more damage than condi! But also because staff with sword/shield offer the most sustain. Neither of them are condi weapons. Why power warrior over condi warrior? I don’t know why. I’ve played both and condi warrior is easier, tankier and does more damage.

Now the only other reason I can think of that people choose power specs over condi specs is because everyone’s maxing out cleansing and resistance when they can. You know why? Because condis are OP. If we stopped running so many cleanses condition defences, you bet we’d be seeing more condition specs from professions that can run condition specs while meeting the criteria I mentioned above (maxing out sustain and synergy).

i think what Anet trying to do is to bring to table more builds
more build meaning even conditions
dh – went from bunker, power to condition and power again
thief – although d/p meta they make it more appealing to poison d/d and sb
ranger – pushed to try traps again and conditions
rev – push to try conditions
mesmer – push away from power to bunker and to conditions builds
warrior – power to condition to power
engi – condition (long time ago) to power

so the direction is nice . each class can use power or condi build.

to call it meta will be define by the sustain abilities. the more you can sustain versus conditions you will see power meta (as we saw for several season)
and i think we will continue to see that as power serve better in terms of burst dmg than conditions (dmg over time)

group will have to build around support each other and use support build and class like the ele in order to win.

lets assume we will see now condi revenant meta.. after short time you will see counter to it in game play. like thief who target the revenant (like necro got focused) and so on

messiah.1908:

i think what Anet trying to do is to bring to table more builds

rev – push to try conditions

Rev is running the same build in PvP since 18 months ago. Despite the nerfs to power and the buffs to support and condition power Rev is still the most competitive build to run for Revs in PvP.

Buran.3796:

messiah.1908:

i think what Anet trying to do is to bring to table more builds

rev – push to try conditions

Rev is running the same build in PvP since 18 months ago. Despite the nerfs to power and the buffs to support and condition power Rev is still the most competitive build to run for Revs in PvP.

we need to w8 and see . as thief might take his spot. as also power rev is little low at the moment . maybe condi rev combine with ele can do an aoe on point huge dmg ..

we shall w8 and see

My thoughts?

I will be playing Paragon…as I now realize this game will never be balanced because I am almost certain the people making these decisions don’t know what they are doing.

Things seem to be balanced based on complaining; not from fundamental understanding of class mechanics.

Just wait for the next round of B****ing for the balance folks to make their decision.

Rev is now the exact mirror of Guaridian the entire class is carried by Torment as Guardians are with Burn.

Thief: There are no words to describe the level of B******t this class is. Condition application on dodge. Yeah just re apply and re apply and re apply.

Mesmer: There is no other class that can stack Toment and confusion and vulnerability like mesmers. They can just reapply conditions over and over and over and they will out condi you why because of cool-down timers.

Necro: Is just Condi filler…theyre just going to fill you up on endless conditions.

Combat should be Power focused and enhanced with the RIGHT conditions.
Not here take all of them so while foes are stacked with every condition in the game getting applied NUMEROUS TIMES they can only clear 1-5 every ~10-20 secs.

Thieves make good use of poison and bleed, crip
necros would make great use of Chill and poison. torment
Mesmers would make great use of Confusion, slow, crip
Rangers would make great use of Poison and Slow, crip
Guardians would make excellent use of Weakness, vuln, and immob
Warriors would make great use of Weakness, Vuln, crip,

Every calass does not need access to every condition.
As a Necro most players are going to run away/around you.
Torment would be great with Chill and for lengthy encounters Poison
Theives would make good use of fleeing tagets with Crip, and bleed and poison for lengthy encounters.
Mesmers would do excellent with confusion mesmer encounters are localized there is not so much running as attacking with mesmers. Slowing their enemies would do well with landing shatters as well as crip.

See where I am going with this?
Allowing Classes to stack condis as a buff is not a solution.

Same thing with Boons…PLAYERS DO NOT NEED EVERY BOON IN THE BOOK ALL AT ONCE. They ought to be heavily regulated.

Direct damage and Condition damage can inflict the same dps. You can die against direct damage or conditions.
Since the Trait and Conditon Rework, every single class played Direct damage and who chose condition was only slaughtered without mercy, unable to inflict any damage. Unless for few sporadic builds able to fight with hybrids, insta-nerfed by ANet.
That was because the damage had to be done with power and condiiton was only a funny filler. Almost all Condi Amulets was Bunker amulets for that reason.
The problem was that ANet was not able to make any build diversity because there was only one source of damage: power. No one wanted the condition damage, unless few useless funny builds, just because with condition you was not able to kill someone.

That forced ANet to make a decision and they chose to make condition damage viable.
Now the problem is that players want to kick off condition damage from this game just because a condiiton build can kill them. No more reason. Conditions have tons of counters, more than direct damage and also stronger.

If you look to guardians, they run with only 2 condi clean (F2 that have a long CD and Smite Condiiton, that clean only 2 condis) and they’re extremly strong. But they have much more ways to protect from direct damage (block, immunity, blind, that everyone think that don’t work against condition damage). Then, how can be possible for a build to win in a condition damage meta with only 2 condi clean (wich one have a really long cooldown?) Following your theory they had to be slaughtered asap, without mercy, without any chance to survive. But, ehy, they’re strong against condition builds and one of the best build atm! How can that be possible?

@Zinthroten “Now the only other reason I can think of that people choose power specs over condi specs is because everyone’s maxing out cleansing and resistance when they can. You know why? Because condis are OP. If we stopped running so many cleanses condition defences, you bet we’d be seeing more condition specs from professions that can run condition specs while meeting the criteria I mentioned above”

A really really bad example! You talk like no one use any kind of skills to protect himself from direct damage.
Try to play without direct damage immunity, block, evade and things that save you from direct damage, how long will you last in this meta? You will die after the first burst, without any mercy, without any hope to survive.
Of course everyone chose to play with defences against what can hurt you, that’s mandatory in this game! But if you think that condition damage is the priority, why don’t you try to play without skills to protect from direct damage? A warrior without endurepain how long will survive in a fight? Strip away the guardian from his block, the mesmer from his evade and movement, every class to what can maki him flee from the direct damage. How long will you last in a direct damage meta?
Actually every single class have a lot of ways to protect himself from direct damage and condition damage.

Also, a large amount of conditions help to inflict or protect from direct damage (like vulnerability, immobilize, chill, weakness) and there’s a large amount of classes that use direct damage and also conditions. CC conditions to slow down the enemy or immobilize him and burst him down easy (like druids, that if you don’t clean the immobilize or active a block/evade can kill you easy with a single burst of LB2+F2). not only condition classes sopam conditions.

@Taltevus
Not every class have access to every condition. Mesmers can spam burn but they’re weapons are confusion and torment. Guardians only have burn. Thief use mainly bleed. rangers can spam bleed but not much more. Engi can spam burn and few other conditions. The only class able to spam a large variety of condition is the Necromancer, with bleed and poison in it’s weapons and corrupting boons (eventually using burn in the Shroud AA).

There’s much more classes able to spam all the boons than classes able to spam much more two different damaging conditions.

In addition, a build that puts out zero pressure will eventually lose every 1v1. This game is about getting kills around the map and snowballing to cap points. We already had our bunker meta in S1 and it was 10000 times worse than what you are describing now. A bunker guardian should never win a 1v1 versus a class that actually does damage. Period.

So how do you kill these classes? Its simple, stop trying to build to have every single cleanse in the game and let the enemy free cast on you. Instead, find a mix between the right about of cleanse and build some offensive skills/stats into your build. You have to be able to kill your enemy to win…you’ll never out last them if you just build bunker.

Also, with necromancer in particular, it is a learn to play issue. You say “it doesn’t matter what build or profession I play, necromancer always condi kills me”…well try power revenant. Attack when they are not in shroud and LoS and kite around when they are in shroud. Rinse and repeat. Necro’s burst is melee, just run away when in shroud.

saerni.2584:

Respectfully, you are mistaken.

Conditions, if all cleansed away, do no damage. No damage removes the few condition builds from viability and results in buffs to the application of conditions. Essentially, by buffing cleanse you increase the need for conditions to burst down their opponents before a cleanse can be activated.

What you really want is a nerf to cleanse and a corresponding nerf to condition application. Otherwise, you just end up with the same burst meta you dislike so much.

Are you kidding me? I spam condi like crazy even when people cleanse they don’t stand a chance.

You missed the point Nusku.

My point was that the consequence of increasing the total cleanse available is that Anet needs to make conditions burst even harder to deal damage to their targets. Damage over time is more consistently non-burst oriented when there is no cleanse mechanic which cuts off future damage.

Say I do 10k worth of condition damage. But it happens over 10 seconds. Say they expect that cleanse should reduce that number to 5k of damage actually taken. Now they add a cleanse and expect that players will cleanse so it does 2.5k damage instead. So they add in potential for 20k damage and expect the new cleanse will handle all but 5k of the damage. So a new player without taking full cleanse is now taking 20k damage, 2k/second and going wow condi is OP.

What I’m saying is what he wants is to remove cleanse and make the condition damage 5k in the above example. He then takes 500/second but can’t cleanse away any of the damage. It won’t spike him down because there is no sustain power creep to worry about. But he might not like it because then he will lose hp and have less control over whether he ends up bleeding to death or not.

i got a 3,5 k damage from a single tick of burning its not that bad lol
i will never understand this obsession arena net has with damage
a good game must be well rounded not just damage

messiah.1908:

we need to w8 and see . as thief might take his spot. as also power rev is little low at the moment . maybe condi rev combine with ele can do an aoe on point huge dmg ..

we shall w8 and see

Tried a bit… at low level gameplay works a bit like the old DH trapper, in the sense that you can stack outrageous amounts of damage in a small amount of time, but has two main problems: 1) utterly lacks stability so can be easily cc to death and 2) lacks finesse: with a power you got the sense that if you play perfectly your cards you can survive even vs your hardcounters, whereas the power Rev is a butcher; you spam AoE condi bombs but theresn’t too much room to outsmart foes with your skills. The energy costs are also really high: for single targets physical damage Rev is less power demanding (not pun intended).

shorter coodowns on condi cleanses
i know i have conditions at least let me cleanse them
getting choked by conditions is not cool

jihm.2315:

shorter coodowns on condi cleanses
i know i have conditions at least let me cleanse them
getting choked by conditions is not cool

There’s a lot of cleanses with short cooldown and other with longer cooldown but stronger impact. Just time it properly.
Unless you’re a warrior, then just spam spam spam condi clean all the time and Resistance.

If you can clean every condition on you, there will no one play condition damage. And there’s only few players using condition now, how can be after that kind of rework?

Condition damage is really strong at low rank, as the DH trapper. But higher you go, lesser condition builds you’ll find.