Guild Wars 2

Since a lot of stuff is being reworked how about a controversial topic regarding core combat gameplay and how it could possibly be improved upon.

There’s a lot of things you can say gw2 did right or wrong when it comes to the combat but in my opinion the biggest flaw is how spammy it is. Here’s 3 suggestions that could tone down spam and promote more skillful play.

• Weapon cooldowns freeze when said weapon is swapped out.

Getting to choose two sets of weapons is great, it adds more customization and allows the player to swap weapons as strategically appropriate. The situational aspect is definately a boon however I find that weapon swapping is instead used to cram more cooldowns in a rotation, promoting spamming rather than strategy and taking away value from a weapon’s 1 attack. If weapon cooldowns froze when swapped out, swapping weapons would be a strategic choice foremost.

• Endurance is too plentiful and dodges too frequent. 2/3 current endurance regeneration, tone down vigor.

For there to be skillful play, a game is required to have a certain amount of predictability. In that sense dodge is another factor to predict and outplay; were dodges not so spammable. At some point dodge becomes a spammable evade and instead of predicting dodges a player resorts to throwing as many skills at their opponent and hope some manage to get through. The natural endurance regeneration is too high and vigor too available. All the good builds have high vigor uptime for a reason.

• Less fire and forget instant skills

It’s extremely hard to see and predict what’s happening in this game, especially for new players. There are a lot of skills with very short and unclear animation that practically cannot be recognized in the heat of battle. Nevermind that short animation skills also lend themselves to fire and forget fast spamming, it also makes it hard to counterplay. An example of a good weapon skill with clear animation is warrior longbow’s Pin Down, a bad example is ranger longbow’s Point Blank Shot.

Discuss!

No to the first one, yes to the 2nd and 3rd point. There is no reason for the previous weapon skills to freeze on swap, it just won’t be fun that way.

gw2 pvp is not for casuals and will hopefully never be.

freezing weaponskills is nonsense, why would you swap at all then, and what about classes that have no weaponswap..

they already toned down vigour and endurance traits, some classes rely heavily on dodges while others dont.

insta skills are used for bursts/countering stuns, not all of them are healthy. point blank shot is not such an unbalanced skill as you make it look like, you can predict and dodge it at the same time, if you count the cooldown you can even anticipate it, it’s the same with overcharged shot. skill doesn’t only mean that you can dodge animations but also predict them.

Jekkt.6045:

point blank shot is not such an unbalanced skill as you make it look like, you can predict and dodge it at the same time, if you count the cooldown you can even anticipate it, it’s the same with overcharged shot. skill doesn’t only mean that you can dodge animations but also predict them.

I was not implying it is an overpowered skill, only that it has a bad animation. It’s only an example.

Jelle.2807:

Since a lot of stuff is being reworked how about a controversial topic regarding core combat gameplay and how it could possibly be improved upon.

There’s a lot of things you can say gw2 did right or wrong when it comes to the combat but in my opinion the biggest flaw is how spammy it is. Here’s 3 suggestions that could tone down spam and promote more skillful play.

• Weapon cooldowns freeze when said weapon is swapped out.

Getting to choose two sets of weapons is great, it adds more customization and allows the player to swap weapons as strategically appropriate. The situational aspect is definately a boon however I find that weapon swapping is instead used to cram more cooldowns in a rotation, promoting spamming rather than strategy and taking away value from a weapon’s 1 attack. If weapon cooldowns froze when swapped out, swapping weapons would be a strategic choice foremost.

• Endurance is too plentiful and dodges too frequent. 2/3 current endurance regeneration, tone down vigor.

For there to be skillful play, a game is required to have a certain amount of predictability. In that sense dodge is another factor to predict and outplay; were dodges not so spammable. At some point dodge becomes a spammable evade and instead of predicting dodges a player resorts to throwing as many skills at their opponent and hope some manage to get through. The natural endurance regeneration is too high and vigor too available. All the good builds have high vigor uptime for a reason.

• Less fire and forget instant skills

It’s extremely hard to see and predict what’s happening in this game, especially for new players. There are a lot of skills with very short and unclear animation that practically cannot be recognized in the heat of battle. Nevermind that short animation skills also lend themselves to fire and forget fast spamming, it also makes it hard to counterplay. An example of a good weapon skill with clear animation is warrior longbow’s Pin Down, a bad example is ranger longbow’s Point Blank Shot.

Discuss!

Absolute no to the first one, that makes no senese.

The only class with spammable evades is thief when playing s/d. Some classes relies on healing, high armour, hp…some classes relies heavily on timing dodges right and that’s so far the defensive mechanism that requires the most skill. You can still bait out dodges and be patient with your burst.

Yes to less instant skills, but let me remind you that PBS is not an instant skill and it is avoidable.

My gut reaction to #1 was “No, that sounds terrible”. However, I do think it might reduce the “543211 swap 543211 swap etc.” (ultra generalized, mind you) style gameplay. It would be interesting to play with, in my opinion, but Thieves would have an even bigger leg up.

1. and #3 I also agree with.

2&3 would need to be simultaneously done for balance issues, I agree with both.

Why not, but there’s more important to do first in my opinion.. The actual meta builds are too forgiving and it’s too complicated to counter some setups easily..

I’m having to deal with double warriors guard engi on legacy of foefire too many times, and it’s simply not fun, especially when you have at best 1 point holder in your party. Losing to people running around points, spamming conditions and buffs with no risk isn’t fair. It’s like losing 6-0 in football to a team defending with 10 all game..

Abazigal.3679:

Why not, but there’s more important to do first in my opinion.. The actual meta builds are too forgiving and it’s too complicated to counter some setups easily..

I’m having to deal with double warriors guard engi on legacy of foefire too many times, and it’s simply not fun, especially when you have at best 1 point holder in your party. Losing to people running around points, spamming conditions and buffs with no risk isn’t fair. It’s like losing 6-0 in football to a team defending with 10 all game..

And what exactly do you play?

Guys if possible please refrain from discussing profession balance. The thread is about the core combat gameplay.

I’m playing bunker guard most of the time, but that’s not the point of the topic. What i meant is that in order to promote more skillful play according to the OP, i believe we first need to get rid of the " anti-failures " skills/actions..

Defensively, there are too many " panic " buttons. People aren’t caring to dodge key skills, watching carefully x builds. They get kded, then use stability or any evade. That’s also why i believe the 2nd point of the OP is good, but others are minor in my opinion..

I agree with 2/3. 1 is pretty silly sounding to me.

I disagree with all of them, if theres a problem with the weapon swapping aloowing a certain class great benefits it should be addressed, opose freezing all classes weapon swaps.

Some classes depend on vigor and what separates the average-good-great- best players is when they dodge, obviously ele’s have the most to gain from this but they give in elite special skills which to me is a trade off. Also i trait for vigor so i can dodge more after using a utility skill. This is a choice i made to have more dodges, you shouldnt take away peoples choices to simplify the game for new players.

For any sport where you play head to head with another person you need to play with physicality which means your gonna get hit. Alot of the big hitting skills have a tell or a set up hit. I know there is 2-3 different ways i like to combo attack with the classes i use for maximum dmg. The last one seems like your trying to simplify the game for those who its moving too fast for.

Last time i checked you never ask usain bolt to run with weights on his back because hes faster then everyone else. No one told micheal phelps to swim with one arm. The honest answer for things to fix pvp is simple mechanics that are not working the way they should. Ask anet to fix the basic things like range, proper dmg and the way conditions should be removed when using condi removals. Among alot of other little things but this is just my opinion.

kdaddy.5431:

I disagree with all of them, if theres a problem with the weapon swapping aloowing a certain class great benefits it should be addressed, opose freezing all classes weapon swaps.

Some classes depend on vigor and what separates the average-good-great- best players is when they dodge, obviously ele’s have the most to gain from this but they give in elite special skills which to me is a trade off. Also i trait for vigor so i can dodge more after using a utility skill. This is a choice i made to have more dodges, you shouldnt take away peoples choices to simplify the game for new players.

For any sport where you play head to head with another person you need to play with physicality which means your gonna get hit. Alot of the big hitting skills have a tell or a set up hit. I know there is 2-3 different ways i like to combo attack with the classes i use for maximum dmg. The last one seems like your trying to simplify the game for those who its moving too fast for.

Last time i checked you never ask usain bolt to run with weights on his back because hes faster then everyone else. No one told micheal phelps to swim with one arm. The honest answer for things to fix pvp is simple mechanics that are not working the way they should. Ask anet to fix the basic things like range, proper dmg and the way conditions should be removed when using condi removals. Among alot of other little things but this is just my opinion.

More dodges don’t increase skill level. It means you can be less conservative. If a guy has an unending amount for example, is he more skillful than a guy who has to make the best of just 2?

ronpierce.2760:

kdaddy.5431:

I disagree with all of them, if theres a problem with the weapon swapping aloowing a certain class great benefits it should be addressed, opose freezing all classes weapon swaps.

Some classes depend on vigor and what separates the average-good-great- best players is when they dodge, obviously ele’s have the most to gain from this but they give in elite special skills which to me is a trade off. Also i trait for vigor so i can dodge more after using a utility skill. This is a choice i made to have more dodges, you shouldnt take away peoples choices to simplify the game for new players.

For any sport where you play head to head with another person you need to play with physicality which means your gonna get hit. Alot of the big hitting skills have a tell or a set up hit. I know there is 2-3 different ways i like to combo attack with the classes i use for maximum dmg. The last one seems like your trying to simplify the game for those who its moving too fast for.

Last time i checked you never ask usain bolt to run with weights on his back because hes faster then everyone else. No one told micheal phelps to swim with one arm. The honest answer for things to fix pvp is simple mechanics that are not working the way they should. Ask anet to fix the basic things like range, proper dmg and the way conditions should be removed when using condi removals. Among alot of other little things but this is just my opinion.

More dodges don’t increase skill level. It means you can be less conservative. If a guy has an unending amount for example, is he more skillful than a guy who has to make the best of just 2?

I agree with you. However, it’s not this simple. Imagine a zerker thief and zerker warrior. The warrior won’t have to dodge so much due to highest hp and armour pool and healing singet. The thief will have to dodge much more than the warrior due to lowest hp pool, lower armour. Now tell me what is more skilled? Having more dodges and timing them right? Or benefit from passives and then time less dodges right?

I’m not saying some classes don’t need them more than others, balance isn’t made that way. However I was just stating that the core idea he was displaying was incorrect.

I generally feel like defenses come in too far of extremes. Either classes tend to have huge health pools and little sustain (excluding shoutbow simply due to a high base on shout heals). Or weaker passive defenses and huge boon uptime or evades, so very easily spiked but incredible sustain. And while one is more active, as the gap between them grows it becomes more and more difficult to balance correctly. Ideally, hp pools would look something like 14/16/18k and active defenses get balanced around those numbers. It still provides room for niches and variation in style without creating a sponge versus huge sustain problem.

Disagree with 1 and 2. 3 I agree with.

kdaddy.5431:

This is a choice i made to have more dodges, you shouldnt take away peoples choices to simplify the game for new players.

It’s not strictly a matter of simplying though.

You must ask yourself, does the oversaturation of endurance promote me to time my dodges at just the right moments, or does having a dodge every five seconds in addition to any other skill I can use to avoid damage mean you get to use it often enough to just spam it. Likewise does it allow for interesting counterplays when you know your opponent can dodge every five seconds?

You are right that elementalist probably has the most acces to vigor. I would argue however, that this is also the reason why elementalist is in such a weird state of balance where d/d just keeps on getting nerfed. That’s beside the point though that all classes have the same endurance regeneration and most have some trait that grants them a high vigor uptime.

Laraley.7695:

I agree with you. However, it’s not this simple. Imagine a zerker thief and zerker warrior. The warrior won’t have to dodge so much due to highest hp and armour pool and healing singet. The thief will have to dodge much more than the warrior due to lowest hp pool, lower armour. Now tell me what is more skilled? Having more dodges and timing them right? Or benefit from passives and then time less dodges right?

Technically speaking this has little to do with endurance and vigor. Thief has a lot of skills that evade, that’s part of the design of the class. Where a warrior is naturally tough, a guardian has a lot of blocks and invulnerables, a thief has a lot of evasion skill. If anything, I think more emphasis should be put on evading through skills rather than dodge.

Jelle.2807:

kdaddy.5431:

This is a choice i made to have more dodges, you shouldnt take away peoples choices to simplify the game for new players.

It’s not strictly a matter of simplying though.

You must ask yourself, does the oversaturation of endurance promote me to time my dodges at just the right moments, or does having a dodge every five seconds in addition to any other skill I can use to avoid damage mean you get to use it often enough to just spam it. Likewise does it allow for interesting counterplays when you know your opponent can dodge every five seconds?

You are right that elementalist probably has the most acces to vigor. I would argue however, that this is also the reason why elementalist is in such a weird state of balance where d/d just keeps on getting nerfed. That’s beside the point though that all classes have the same endurance regeneration and most have some trait that grants them a high vigor uptime.

Laraley.7695:

I agree with you. However, it’s not this simple. Imagine a zerker thief and zerker warrior. The warrior won’t have to dodge so much due to highest hp and armour pool and healing singet. The thief will have to dodge much more than the warrior due to lowest hp pool, lower armour. Now tell me what is more skilled? Having more dodges and timing them right? Or benefit from passives and then time less dodges right?

Technically speaking this has little to do with endurance and vigor. Thief has a lot of skills that evade, that’s part of the design of the class. Where a warrior is naturally tough, a guardian has a lot of blocks and invulnerables, a thief has a lot of evasion skill. If anything, I think more emphasis should be put on evading through skills rather than dodge.

Not really, having evade on weapon skills is still active defense and actually dp thief has none on dp weapon skills and one on heal, which has a cooldown and cannot be spammed. Then it has one on sb. But that wasn’t the point. Thief has way much more acces to vigor than a zerker warrior. It’s still completely different to just having high armour and hp, which is completely passive defense. And that was my point, the passive defenses should be toned down a bit while the active ones would get buffed.

However, things like ranger’s evade on autoattack is a completely bad desing. It doesn’t reward anything at all.

Laraley.7695:

Thief has way much more acces to vigor than a zerker warrior.

How does Thief have way more acces to vigor than a warrior? A warrior can run offhand warhorn for a 10 second vigor boon on 20 second cooldown. The only reliable source of vigor thief has is Vigorous Recovery, warrior also has Vigorous Focus. If anything, a warrior could probably have a higher vigor uptime than a thief is he wanted.

Jelle.2807:

Laraley.7695:

Thief has way much more acces to vigor than a zerker warrior.

How does Thief have way more acces to vigor than a warrior? A warrior can run offhand warhorn for a 10 second vigor boon on 20 second cooldown. The only reliable source of vigor thief has is Vigorous Recovery, warrior also has Vigorous Focus. If anything, a warrior could probably have a higher vigor uptime than a thief is he wanted.

Most zerker warriors do not run warhorn offhand.

Anyways, thief has at least 50% vigor uptime due to Bountiful theft.

Putting more evasion skills on weapons for a class that has cooldowns on their weapon skills sounds like a bad idea to me.

If you think dodges and vigor are too plentiful, play a necromancer for a little while…

Weapon Skill Cooldown Change No. It would lessen skill spam a little, but only on weapon sets which have shorter cooldowns.

Reduce Dodges/Evades Agree that dodges and evades are too plentiful, but disagree with the proposed solution. Leave the base alone and adjust traits, skills, and Sigil of Energy. The specialization system is already doing some of this by preventing some combinations that allowed for extra dodges/evades while still providing high damage. Sigil of Energy is the main outlier and should at the very least be not adjust so that tit doesn’t instantly provide 50% endurance.

Skill Risk vs. Reward The power of a skill needs to be balanced with cast time, cooldown, and other drawbacks (e.g. rooted in place during skill). Doing this on a set of weapon skills also works (e.g. high burst but low sustain damage). For the most part, it’s pretty good, but there are some outliers such as a point blank shot.

Just to note: Sigil of Energy is, in my opinion, a saving grace for the Necromancer class. if you nerf it, I’m going to have a very sad time, and other classes like Thief that have evasion-spam on weapons will be arguably much less affected. Which doesn’t sit well with me.

Maybe Sigil of Energy needs to be looked at, but if so, you have to realize how dire the Necromancer straits are when it comes to active evasion.

those changes would work for some classes and completely delete other…

also what’s up with whole complains about spamming lately, unless we are playing different game spamming gets you killedif you face any half decent enemy

Cynz.9437:

those changes would work for some classes and completely delete other…

You know if they nerfed some of the cheese-like defenses for thief, they might buff them in other ways to even them out. Frankly, and I know you might disagree because it’s fun to never get hit if you play “perfectly”, but someone evading all the time for no reason (waving a sword around or swapping weapons) is a very frustrating feeling. Yes it can be “countered” by being super focused on timing around evades but it’s just a really frustrating thing to see “evade” all the time for no reason. I’d much rather just land hits one someone a tad bit sturdier baseline. You could still keep the niche of evading more and faster than others, but a think there is a happier middle ground to be found that could be in everyone’s best interest.

i wasn’t talking just about thieves, see necro arguments above; frankly any class w/o fast swap would get destroyed; as far as i know s/d is getting pushed out of meta

what you describe for a thief change is basically warrior… and something tells me if anet did ever change thief mechanics people would still cry rivers about the class

P.S. i hate s/d and i don’t play it so don’t bring me in that argument, tnks

Cogbyrn.7283:

Maybe Sigil of Energy needs to be looked at, but if so, you have to realize how dire the Necromancer straits are when it comes to active evasion.

Rather than rely on a sigil, necromancer needs its skills and traits improved for self-defense.

Exedore.6320:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Maybe Sigil of Energy needs to be looked at, but if so, you have to realize how dire the Necromancer straits are when it comes to active evasion.

Rather than rely on a sigil, necromancer needs its skills and traits improved for self-defense.

Hey that would be phenomenal. I’m 100% on board with that.

But if that doesn’t happen, Sigil of Energy is something I literally can’t play without.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Exedore.6320:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Maybe Sigil of Energy needs to be looked at, but if so, you have to realize how dire the Necromancer straits are when it comes to active evasion.

Rather than rely on a sigil, necromancer needs its skills and traits improved for self-defense.

Hey that would be phenomenal. I’m 100% on board with that.

But if that doesn’t happen, Sigil of Energy is something I literally can’t play without.

Indeed, necro always struck me as more of a naturally tough scholar profession, akin to warrior. If their design worked, they should not need to dodge that much.

Nobody can evade close to all the time (unless you talking about weapon evades added in) that got stopped when they nerfed vigor abilities awhile back. You can waste evades and you will get smashed afterwards. Three I agree with. One is nonsense.

Hmm n1 isn’t very popular at all I see. Not that it was unexpected, having so many cooldowns available is very engrained in the present gameplay. But well, I did promise controversy after all.
Don’t dismiss it immediately though, I invite you for a little thought experiment on how the current weapon swap and my suggested one would change gameplay. It might seem silly at first, but give it some thought.

That said, the game has been balanced around having all those cooldowns available and if it were to be changed it would have to be accompanied with a lot of cooldown adjustments. Highly unrealistic I realize. Still, could play around with some sort of middle ground, something like reduced cooldown recharge for swapped out weapons. There’s a lot that could be played around with.

I think the main reason why I find the current weapon swap system and cooldowns to be missing something is because the initial design was to have endurance cost tied to skills. The removal of this I believe is the biggest reason why n1 and 2 feel off to me, as though it was (justifiably) removed but not compensated for, as though the current design lacks something. I would argue that it was the removal of that resource management that made the game more spammy and less indepht.
But well, that’s a bit of a tangent, just wanted to elaborate on my opinions.