Guild Wars 2

Exedore.6320:

And just because the mob thinks it doesn’t mean it’s good.

Don’t say that in front of the mob

Exedore.6320:

Pot, meet kettle. I explained why your suggestions were poor. You just didn’t like it, so you’re attacking me.

And just because the mob thinks it doesn’t mean it’s good.

Dude, its not that his suggestions were poor, you are clearly acting so defensive for the engineers sake.

Yeah hes clearly biased because he suggests more effective nerfs to slick shoes and realizes that a burn on crit trait is not a good idea in the first place.

If you don’t agree to every nerf thrown your way on the forum you are a defensive X who only rolls fotm and should git gud against my Y metabuild.

Or that’s what it seems like these days.

I’m a multiclasser with over 2k games on engineer (7k games total played). The reason why engineer is strong is actually very hard to pin down, since alot of the abilities have been the way they are since launch, but are now complained about due to unfair mechanics.
Grenades and toolkit have been engineer’s crutch for way too long, but are mandatory due to poor ranged options and active defense on other kits. The fact is then that engineer is actually very melee focused class, that is why slick shoes and magnet pull are insanely strong skills. You can grenade barrage, pry bar, jump shot, blunderbuss and then after that overcharged into net shot for ridiculous CC combos.
So the main problem is the amount of crowd control against melee like thieves. At the same time ranged classes like ranger and mesmer remain at advantage as long as they play cautiously. Some of the proposed trait changes are addressing these issues , so I’m not going to suggest too much, but here are few ones:

- Rifle:
* rifled barrels trait baseline, net shot velocity increase by 25%
* overcharged shot 3/4s cast time, 20s CD – no self CD

- Toolkit
* magnet pull now teleports enemy into you if in LoS (fixes most bugs), animation visible while engi is in stealth
* Gear shield 2s block now

Slick Shoes: duration reduced to 2 seconds

- Bomb Kit
* make bombs ground targetable with 600 range atleast
* same cast time as grenade throws, keep the fuse time on landing though

- Incendiary Powder
* move to arms line (proposed), give icon like doom on next weapon swap (avoidable), no crit requirement to encourage amulet and build variety

- Flame Thrower
* the AA burning application probably needs a buff/ rework after the condi changes ( will have to see how it pans out)
* skill 2 ground targeted 900 range now
* skill 4 fire field a bit wider and longer

xDudisx.5914:

The problem is that a lot of players keep QQing about turrets instead of focus the complains in cele engi and condi spam engi. So what Anet does is nerf the already not viable turret engi while the op builds fly under the radar.

People were warning you guys…always said that turret engi was the last of your problems and was ready to fight 2 turrete engies over your normal nade spamm engi…

Engi’s have near zero access to stability, main reason why gear shield is on a low CD. And they can’t stomp with it active.
Engineers have no other reliable access to condi clear besides healing turret, it is perfectly balanced as is. Or they will be completely useless vs any form of condi, which is almost already a problem for them.

IP does need some sort of change.
Slick shoes needs to not stack on spot.
Kits need icons similar to attunements, which will happen hopefully with the hobo sack changes. Although this change won’t help much because of the 1second CD on kit swap, which is fine as is. As someone mentioned the individual skill CD nerfs are better, or risk making what makes the engineer unique null and void.

TLDR
You expect to many nerfs, you want to gut engis, so stop. Now.

Exedore.6320:

Arken.3725:

Just my opinion, only a few things need to be adjusted and it would help significantly.

1. Increase gearshield CD to 30 sec
2. 1/2 to 3/4 cast time to rifle KB
3. Icon to show when the next attack inflicts burning from IP so it can be avoided. And allow it to avoided on the next attack regardless if you hit or miss
4. Reduce slick shoe kd from 3 to 2

1. Too long. Gear shield is about the only defense engineers have. 25 sec maybe, but 30 sec is too high.
2. No. Overcharged shot balances itself by also disabling the engineer. Most rifle skills are only powerful at close range, so the follow-up typically isn’t high damage. Being instant also allows it to be used for defense. If the engineer is avoiding the knockback or stun-breaking it, then they used two skills – can’t you use one (a stun break) to counter it?
3. No. Passive bonus damage just needs to go away as much as possible. Waiting for the trait re-work and official details on burning changes to comment further. In the interim, just lower the duration to 2 seconds per proc.
4. The knockdown is 2 seconds. The puddle duration and skill duration are both 3 seconds. Most people are knocked down multiple by times by successive puddles, not the same puddle. You’d probably want to lower the skill duration.

I’m going to explain why your argument make no sense.

1. The only defensive mechanic? How about Elixir S, Nade spamming at your feet(considered defensive against melee), Box of Nails, Elixir C(superior version to Contemplation of Purity) Rifle KB can also be utilized defensively. So no, it’s NOT the only defensive mechanic Engineer’s have. Nice way to cherry pick.

2. Overcharged shot isn’t balanced by the self-cc. If it didn’t remove all manner of Movement impairing effects then you’d have an argument but it does. Not to mention any form of Instant-CC is way too strong.

3. Arguing for passive bonuses again further weakens your argument. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve avoided nades, bombs and other hard-hitting skills only to be taken down by some BS burn proc. Giving it a way to properly be avoided(like all other procs should be) is the way to go.

Again, you brought up no real argument aside from your subjectivity.

Arken.3725:

Elixir C(superior version to Contemplation of Purity)

LOL, you think a skill with a 20 sec shorter cooldown without a stunbreak meaning running with no stun break in any viable engy build, is better than a skill with a 20 sec longer cooldown, but a stunbreak, can I have some of what you are smoking?

And to be realistic, that is going to be an 8 sec difference in cooldowns, because Contemplation of Purity is actually usable in a viable build, you know the most faceroll zerker build there is with passive healing, passive burning, passive boons, passively applied chill on crit, a disgusting instant teleport, more disgusting instant skills and so on.

Threads like these with people who have no objectivity are a prime example of why the devs should take no notice of the forums.

GrandHaven.1052:

TLDR
You expect to many nerfs, you want to gut engis, so stop. Now.

After turret nerf, these guys don’t even know what they want nerfed for engie now. Theyre throwing any and every skill out there for a nerf, but can’t decide whats so op about engies; they just want to roll over them.

Its pretty sad, really.

zinkz.7045:

Arken.3725:

Elixir C(superior version to Contemplation of Purity)

LOL, you think a skill with a 20 sec shorter cooldown without a stunbreak meaning running with no stun break in any viable engy build, is better than a skill with a 20 sec longer cooldown, but a stunbreak, can I have some of what you are smoking?

And to be realistic, that is going to be an 8 sec difference in cooldowns, because Contemplation of Purity is actually usable in a viable build, you know the most faceroll zerker build there is with passive healing, passive burning, passive boons, passively applied chill on crit, a disgusting instant teleport, more disgusting instant skills and so on.

Threads like these with people who have no objectivity are a prime example of why the devs should take no notice of the forums.

There is a difference between what people choose and have access to. I could play s/d fresh air without Arcane shield and complain about not having any defensive skills. The cooldown of shield block is too low without any arguments.

Laraley.7695:

zinkz.7045:

Arken.3725:

Elixir C(superior version to Contemplation of Purity)

LOL, you think a skill with a 20 sec shorter cooldown without a stunbreak meaning running with no stun break in any viable engy build, is better than a skill with a 20 sec longer cooldown, but a stunbreak, can I have some of what you are smoking?

And to be realistic, that is going to be an 8 sec difference in cooldowns, because Contemplation of Purity is actually usable in a viable build, you know the most faceroll zerker build there is with passive healing, passive burning, passive boons, passively applied chill on crit, a disgusting instant teleport, more disgusting instant skills and so on.

Threads like these with people who have no objectivity are a prime example of why the devs should take no notice of the forums.

There is a difference between what people choose and have access to. I could play s/d fresh air without Arcane shield and complain about not having any defensive skills.

Which is irrelevant to what I wrote and quoted, he claimed it is superior to Contemplation of Purity, it isn’t, which is why no one uses it, it is a waste of space.

zinkz.7045:

Laraley.7695:

zinkz.7045:

Arken.3725:

Elixir C(superior version to Contemplation of Purity)

LOL, you think a skill with a 20 sec shorter cooldown without a stunbreak meaning running with no stun break in any viable engy build, is better than a skill with a 20 sec longer cooldown, but a stunbreak, can I have some of what you are smoking?

And to be realistic, that is going to be an 8 sec difference in cooldowns, because Contemplation of Purity is actually usable in a viable build, you know the most faceroll zerker build there is with passive healing, passive burning, passive boons, passively applied chill on crit, a disgusting instant teleport, more disgusting instant skills and so on.

Threads like these with people who have no objectivity are a prime example of why the devs should take no notice of the forums.

There is a difference between what people choose and have access to. I could play s/d fresh air without Arcane shield and complain about not having any defensive skills

Which is irrelevant to what I wrote and quoted, he claimed it is superior to Contemplation of Purity, it isn’t, which is why no one uses it, it is a waste of space.

Yeah, sorry, wrong reply -__-

zinkz.7045:

Laraley.7695:

zinkz.7045:

Arken.3725:

Elixir C(superior version to Contemplation of Purity)

LOL, you think a skill with a 20 sec shorter cooldown without a stunbreak meaning running with no stun break in any viable engy build, is better than a skill with a 20 sec longer cooldown, but a stunbreak, can I have some of what you are smoking?

And to be realistic, that is going to be an 8 sec difference in cooldowns, because Contemplation of Purity is actually usable in a viable build, you know the most faceroll zerker build there is with passive healing, passive burning, passive boons, passively applied chill on crit, a disgusting instant teleport, more disgusting instant skills and so on.

Threads like these with people who have no objectivity are a prime example of why the devs should take no notice of the forums.

There is a difference between what people choose and have access to. I could play s/d fresh air without Arcane shield and complain about not having any defensive skills.

Which is irrelevant to what I wrote and quoted, he claimed it is superior to Contemplation of Purity, it isn’t, which is why no one uses it, it is a waste of space.

I meant in terms of it’s cd. It’s like when Engineer’s complain about not having condi-clear when it’s right there. I still find it to be superior since it’s on such a low cd but that’s just me. The only reason why you believe the opposite is because there’s no other option for the Guard to take and yet here’s an option for an Engineer to take…

Edit: Again, cherry picking at its finest.

Arken.3725:

zinkz.7045:

Laraley.7695:

zinkz.7045:

Arken.3725:

Elixir C(superior version to Contemplation of Purity)

LOL, you think a skill with a 20 sec shorter cooldown without a stunbreak meaning running with no stun break in any viable engy build, is better than a skill with a 20 sec longer cooldown, but a stunbreak, can I have some of what you are smoking?

And to be realistic, that is going to be an 8 sec difference in cooldowns, because Contemplation of Purity is actually usable in a viable build, you know the most faceroll zerker build there is with passive healing, passive burning, passive boons, passively applied chill on crit, a disgusting instant teleport, more disgusting instant skills and so on.

Threads like these with people who have no objectivity are a prime example of why the devs should take no notice of the forums.

There is a difference between what people choose and have access to. I could play s/d fresh air without Arcane shield and complain about not having any defensive skills.

Which is irrelevant to what I wrote and quoted, he claimed it is superior to Contemplation of Purity, it isn’t, which is why no one uses it, it is a waste of space.

I meant in terms of it’s cd. It’s like when Engineer’s complain about not having condi-clear when it’s right there. I still find it to be superior since it’s on such a low cd but that’s just me. The only reason why you believe the opposite is because there’s no other option for the Guard to take and yet here’s an option for an Engineer to take…

engi builds are forced to take minium of 2 kits for effectiveness. that leaves you with one utility choice, and if you don’t take Egun (i prefer it to TK, but im like the only one) it has to be a stunbreak. no room for the skill outside of HGH.

IP is being nerfed. gear shield nerf would be huge, idk if it’s even needed.
HT nerf could potentially break the class considering its the only good heal the class has, and often the only condi clear.
Overcharged Shot shouldn’t be nerfed unless the self cc is removed. if you make it easy to dodge the skill becomes bad and hurts the engi more than it helps. the attack still misses all the time of the enemy is rotating around you.

Arken.3725:

<snip>

1. Gear Shield Cele Rifle engineer, which is the problem, runs Tool Kit and situationally Elixir S in place of Slick Shoes. Given that typical load-out and considering that engineers have limited access to stability and protection (Protection Injection isn’t good in practice) and are a mid-range profession, the defenses are not far out of line compared with other professions.

The problem most people run into with Gear Shield is the Power Wrench trait, which reduces the CD of Gear Shield to 16sec. Such a short cooldown for a 3sec block is too good. The proposal for a 30sec base CD still ends up at 24sec traited. It doesn’t really accomplish much and hinders the untraited kit. If you wanted to better tune Gear Shield, you’d reduce the block duration back to 2sec. Still good enough to stop a burst, especially during immob, but doesn’t deny a large quantity of attacks, and it arguably fits engineer better.

We could spend hours going back and forth on soft CC. However, if you play an engineer you’ll quickly see that if you can’t keep opponents hard CC’ed, especially ranged opponents, you risk being trained down in seconds.

Gear shield isn’t even that overwhelming. The offense power of cele rifle has always been the strong point.

2. Overcharged Shot The self-knockback being overpowered is purely your opinion from being on the receiving end. Look at it from both sides and you’ll see it’s not a problem.

The sum of control effects put the engineer at 800-900 range from their target, which is near the max range of most engineer skills. Unless the engineer uses a stun break, they can get off one attack at best while the target is still CC’ed. For that reason, Overcharged Shot is usually a lead-in to stronger CC in a chain. If you know the setup, you can stop the rest of the chain, even causing the engineer to whiff on some CC.

Further, Overcharged Shot is only 400 range. If you’re ranged, it’s pretty obvious when the engineer runs up to you that they’re either going to use Blunderbuss or Overcharged shot, both of which you want to avoid. If you’re melee, you can’t easily time a one-shot ability to stop it, but duration abilities (stability, etc) delay when the engineer can use Overcharged Shot. Part of Overcharged Shot’s functionality is to peel melee, which it does while not being too good.

If the engineer stun breaks the self-CC in order to get one extra attack in, then for almost all builds, they’ve used their only stun break and can be punished hard by CC. The receiving player should have a stun break too in this case.

Further, using overcharged shot in a group fight requires awareness of your surroundings and positioning. If you end up knocking yourself back into the middle of a fight, expect to be severely punished for it.

By the way, Overcharged Shot is unchanged since launch. People only complain about it now because the cele rifle build uses it. It never was a problem through various incarnations of burst engineer builds. And Updraft (Ele Air Dagger #5) is pretty much the same effect as Overcharged Shot (instant launch with self-CC), yet hardly anyone mentioned it despite how popular d/d ele was.

3. Incendiary Powder I didn’t argue in favor of passive damage; I said it should be reduced as much as possible. I’ve been saying Incendiary Powder needs a significant nerf for over a year.

I said “no” to your proposed solution because it’s bad. It turns IP into an even bigger mess of luck, which is frustrating for engineers and their opposition. If the proc comes off cooldown when an attack is airborne and about to hit, you still can’t react. If it comes off cooldown when the engineer is auto-attacking while waiting out an opponent’s defense, it gets wasted and frustrates the engineer. You’re not going to be able to predict the exact end of that 10 second window.

The necessary change is simple, really. The damage increase needs to be reasonable when compared with similar traits. The application either needs to be distributed over time with multiple small applications or a burst tied to some infrequent event under player control which the opponent can avoid.

Another poster said that there are lot of small things which lead to celestial rifle engineer being too powerful. That’s accurate, but there are a few outliers. In my view, these are the major offenders and how the upcoming trait changes address them.

• Incendiary Powder Damage bonus is far too large for an unavoidable proc. It’s applied by anything, including ground-target abilities. This is 2000-2500 damage per proc for a cele rifle build. Most master level traits add only 10% damage and only under specific conditions.
  With the trait changes, burning is lower damage per application. Incendiary Powder is moving to a different trait line and will likely see further changes to smooth the damage and reign in its total damage.
• Grenade Kit + Grenadier Grenadier provides a 50% bonus to Grenade Kit skills #1-#5. In order to keep the untraited kit relevant, the traited kit ends up dealing more damage than melee weapons on top of spitting out multiple conditions and vulnerability stacks. The multitude of conditions make Incendiary Powder hard to remove, nearly guaranteeing it will deal its full damage.
  With the trait changes, the current Grenadier trait is baseline, allowing ANet to better tune the kit’s damage without having to worry about a lesser version of the kit being useless. Assuming the new grenade kit is dealing damage more comparable to a ranged weapon, it will significantly hinder cele rifle builds.
• Condition Duration from Explosives Trait Line Engineers get +30% condition duration from the explosives line, which makes Grenade Kit conditions more potent and makes movement impairing conditions stronger. For example, Net Shot’s immobilize goes up by 0.6 seconds, which allows another attack in the CC chain.
  With the trait changes, the condition duration increase is gone, which reduces the soft CC durations to their base values.

With the trait overhaul in a few months, engineer should be in a better spot. I wouldn’t get my hopes up for a balance patch before then, which does suck. It’s also somewhat counter-productive to propose changes knowing that the system will drastically change anyway.

when did i say it was about thief vs engi?
when did i say it was about 1v1?
i play warrior and necro as well, i play with friends that i would say are pretty good and play multiple classes, my BF is one of the best eles on EU and even they think engis need to be toned down… it is not just my opinion~

what does ability to teleport to enemy has to do with low CD?
what does stealth has to do with low CDs? especially considering how stealth is contra-productive in conquest
actually vs any decent team thief trying to stomp is dead thief because smart enemy will cleave… you are welcome to try to get stomp off in all the cleave w/o dying on thief

Arken.3725:

Elixir C(superior version to Contemplation of Purity)

Man, I’m lucky I put my drink down before I read that. This thread’s taken a detour through crazy town.

Cynz.9437:

when did i say it was about thief vs engi?
when did i say it was about 1v1?
i play warrior and necro as well, i play with friends that i would say are pretty good and play multiple classes, my BF is one of the best eles on EU and even they think engis need to be toned down… it is not just my opinion~

what does ability to teleport to enemy has to do with low CD?
what does stealth has to do with low CDs? especially considering how stealth is contra-productive in conquest
actually vs any decent team thief trying to stomp is dead thief because smart enemy will cleave… you are welcome to try to get stomp off in all the cleave w/o dying on thief

Well then why don’t you let your BF speak for himself. Perhaps we can let the EU players speak for themselves too, and you can stick to speaking for to yourself. Disingenuously claiming to speak for others in order to add weight to your personal opinion, suggest to me that you do not believe in the merits of your argument are enough.

I see complaints about skills such as slick shoes. What strikes me as odd about that, is that the skill functions precisely as it did on release. So why did no complaints about this skill arise until recently?

Arken.3725:

I meant in terms of it’s cd. It’s like when Engineer’s complain about not having condi-clear when it’s right there. I still find it to be superior since it’s on such a low cd but that’s just me. The only reason why you believe the opposite is because there’s no other option for the Guard to take and yet here’s an option for an Engineer to take…

Edit: Again, cherry picking at its finest.

LOL, talk about hypocrisy, “I meant in terms of it’s cd” that is “cherry picking at its finest”, just ignore the stunbreak, but then your whole argument is hypocritical cherry picking.

And no the reason I believe CoP>elixir C is as I stated and you conveniently ignored, is that elixir C has no stunbreak, which not only makes it inferior, but would also make viable engy builds which require two kits suicidal, which is why no one uses it, despite your delusions over how good it is, where as Contemplation of the Purity does have a stunbreak, and fits in a viable build where it also gives obnoxious uninterpretable healing and only has an 8 sec higher cooldown.

As for engies and condi-clear, the reason engies complain, is because they can do maths, apparently you can’t, Anet even stated weak condi cleanse is part of the design for engies, they aren’t lying. Engies also understand the quirks of their skills unlike a lot of other players (as conveniently demonstrated by the post below this from someone giving opinions when they do not even know how transmute works), take transmute for example it doesn’t remove a condi, it removes a stack, so if it hits a stack of 12 bleeds, it only reduces that stack to 11, WOW!

The reality is the lack of condi builds and the amount of condi clear on shoutbow & ele in the meta, help engy, if they made balance changes to make condi more viable and condi builds entered the meta, engy would be more effected than other meta builds including your passive, instant skills faceroll medi guard.

There is a reason engies are one of the first classes that get focused by teams, defensively they have big weaknesses, weak condi cleanse, only ever one stunbreak, no real stability and no teleports, it is also partly why engy has no viable or even close to viable zerker build.

Sky is falling!

But for reals, no one brought incredibly strong minor traits. Recharging healing skill and toolbelt skills below 25% once in 90secs seems kitten strong to me, actually same for transmute every 15secs. Whole ‘necro counters engi’ is myth with all cc, block, dodges and not so small condi clear afterall (turret pick up 2hard). Transmute can screw all your stacks of bleeding because you applied one more, it is stupid as hell. Not to mention when i have to fear quickly with counter cc -,- Still condi necro has generally upper hand in fight like this but not really such an overwhelming one as some say. I would rather send condi ranger to deal with engi with additional target and not condi cc in form of pet and ublockable entangle.

But now it is about engi being op, which engi is, no denying. But only thing op is CELE engi. I think engi has the biggest number of good builds. But we see nothing else than cele, simply because it is superior, superior too good is excellent and easily considered op. My settler healing bombs trolololo solo blocking 2-3 people on temple lower buff (one of my best actions, carrying so hard i got praises from enemy team, aaaageees ago) = RIP. Rabid condi fun = RIP. Zerk HGH = RIP. Trying to hard to fit Modified Ammo in = RIP. All because cele stats give better results wit easier access, mostly because of superior versality and no hard counters; rabid engi vs necro is whole different story than i wrote up, basicly engi get rekt; at the same time on rabid you might find yourself dealing with some other classes easier than on cele. Sadly i have no idea what to do with this Celestial is worst thing that could happen to engi class in general, it fits all to well, attracts lots of unjustified op statements and kills build variety.
Mentioned earlier minor traits are another thing. Healing one is apparently getting changed but other two remain. Maybe at least give transmute an icon? This trait kittenes me off without control, as engi enemy i always have to take it into account, and as engi i dont even remember i have such a powerful thing. It’s not simple condi clear it’s prevention giving you boon and if incoming condi was stacked it removes all stacks (or at least i think this is the clarification behind sudden dissapearing of stacks, i doubt in sigils being the case do often). Nevertheless it feels extremely wrong for me, just look up on wiki what engi can get for you landing certain condition on him. Toolbelt recharge is OP in one case in current meta – slickshoes. I don’t know what basic skill got changed, I feel like nothing got changed with it. Toolbelt though… it was longer cd than basic skill once, now is around half of it in baseline, and going in Tools upgrades it further. Cd on this stunbreak is so low that engi could suddenly afford this skill on utility bar. Furthermore it gives acces to very good buff such as super speed which helps you escape pressure even more. You can use it freely, it will recharge when you are screwed. I always thought of engi like this:
Strong suits:
– cc pressure (increased with viable slick shoes)
– adaptability (flourishing with cele)
Weak suits:
– weak to condi (not so real with bigger hp pool than previously used amulets and bigger outheal)
– suspectible to cc (denied very hard by slick shoes belt, especially combined with tools minor)
Basicly two changes, just two, made class so strong. Reworking celestial and changing slick shoes belt skill cd greatly. Maybe you can add inteligence to this, but this is general change that has counterplay to it unlike often stunbreak.
How to deal with it?
I say lets start with bringing super speed cd to something similiar to active part of the skill. Tone down healing turret – maybe just shave numbers and provide better scaling with healing power so settler might be usable again in comparision to cele and cleric not complete insanity. However i believe increased cd would work better, especially when blown up, so it gives some more depth to the skill. Nowadays people just roll engi and blow up even when they are already full hp. I think knowing your class should reward more and decision when to pickup or when to blow should have more meaning, with pick up giving more condi cleanse (obviously) and slightly more hps than blowing up. Cast could be increased to 3/4sec too, it is extremely good healing skill, always was. Rest lies within celestial being so good for engi perhaps that ~10% stat nerf will do just that and make happy both anti-engi crusaders and engis that are hungry for reinstating build variety.
Wall of text so much :P feel free to correct my data, i was writing from memory exclusively, and thanks if you read this

Aenye.2390:

Transmute can screw all your stacks of bleeding because you applied one more, it is stupid as hell.

Nope. Transmute is about the only exception to condi clears; it acts on a single condi application, not a stack. If you apply 3 bleeds, transmute converts one and you still apply 2.

The problem with transmute is that it affects CC conditions like immobilize and fear and you have no idea when it’s up. The simple fix is to make it not affect CC conditions, possibly with a lower ICD. Lessening damaging conditions is still pretty good for a minor trait.

coglin.1867:

Cynz.9437:

when did i say it was about thief vs engi?
when did i say it was about 1v1?
i play warrior and necro as well, i play with friends that i would say are pretty good and play multiple classes, my BF is one of the best eles on EU and even they think engis need to be toned down… it is not just my opinion~

what does ability to teleport to enemy has to do with low CD?
what does stealth has to do with low CDs? especially considering how stealth is contra-productive in conquest
actually vs any decent team thief trying to stomp is dead thief because smart enemy will cleave… you are welcome to try to get stomp off in all the cleave w/o dying on thief

Well then why don’t you let your BF speak for himself. Perhaps we can let the EU players speak for themselves too, and you can stick to speaking for to yourself. Disingenuously claiming to speak for others in order to add weight to your personal opinion, suggest to me that you do not believe in the merits of your argument are enough.

I see complaints about skills such as slick shoes. What strikes me as odd about that, is that the skill functions precisely as it did on release. So why did no complaints about this skill arise until recently?

i do speak for myself, i brought players i know and talked to as an example, that is…. the poster i responded to decided to use me personaly as argument…

As far as slick shoes goes, i already explained why functionality needs to be changed. Again for you specially, since apprently you can’t read: stability mechanics got changed and slick shoes became too strong with that change.

Exedore.6320:

Aenye.2390:

Transmute can screw all your stacks of bleeding because you applied one more, it is stupid as hell.

Nope. Transmute is about the only exception to condi clears; it acts on a single condi application, not a stack. If you apply 3 bleeds, transmute converts one and you still apply 2.

The problem with transmute is that it affects CC conditions like immobilize and fear and you have no idea when it’s up. The simple fix is to make it not affect CC conditions, possibly with a lower ICD. Lessening damaging conditions is still pretty good for a minor trait.

i think it would be helpful to have an icon for that too…. that way classes like necro for example wouldn’t waste their fear

Trevor Boyer.6524:

It is difficult to diagnose exactly what is OP about the Engineer in current meta because many factors contribute to this in small ways that when added together, create a class is just a bit too good at everything.

Here is what contributes to Engineers being a bit too good all around:
~ Celestial “It’s so good on Engi that there is no reason to use anything else”
~ Convenient and easily traited condi splash to go with that Cele “Incendiary Powder”
~ INT sigils in conjunction with Jump Shot/Blunder/Pry Bar
~ Too many blast finishers for a class that drops water fields
~ Questionably low recharge times for some of the best skills in the game
~ Multiple attack methods/Ability to switch up rhythm “this is powerful in pvp”
~ Multiple attack types: WoR can’t stop Jump Shot “that’s just one example”
~ Best block in the game
~ Best ranged pull in the game
~ Best consistent, practical and easy to land DPS in the game
~ Best CC rotations in the game “immobs, knockdowns, knockbacks, pulls, everything”
~ Arguably best peeler in the game, 2nd only to D/D Cele Ele
~ 100% swiftness/vigor uptime, not even a single skill needs to be clicked to do this
~ Ect… list go on in to smaller details. The above are what’s important

So you see it’s not so easy to “patch the engi”
The class actually needs to be overhauled entirely to fit back in correctly
But if I had to say 2x things that were the main culprits
It would definitely be INT sigils and Cele Amulet
If you weren’t for those two things, the build wouldn’t even be viable

man i’d love to play that 6/6/6/6/6 4 turrets 2 kits, mainhand rifle with offhand pistol and shield engineer where do i unlock it?

Aenye.2390:

Transmute can screw all your stacks of bleeding because you applied one more, it is stupid as hell.

What in the hell is going on in this thread anymore?

Engineers received very little buffs in the past 12 months. But suddenly went from “garbage tier” where it was a very unpopular profession because of how poorly it performed, to “amagad please destroy! its so op!”

Engineers didnt actually change, the meta did. And when it changes again it could very likely kick them out again like the first 2 years.

The suggested changes are completely over the top. It’s entirely aimed at completely destroying the profession as a whole. Making them weak in the moment where they fit best in the meta, and when the Pendulum of Meta swings again?

This games pvp community is unimaginitive. To small and they cannot imagine their way into a new meta without anet stepping in and buff/nerfing everything for them.
Instead of taking the literally tens of thousands of builds and finding a new way to beat the meta, people cry to anet to change the meta for them. Preferably something that fits them best.

Terrahero.9358:

Engineers received very little buffs in the past 12 months. But suddenly went from “garbage tier” where it was a very unpopular profession because of how poorly it performed, to “amagad please destroy! its so op!”

Engineers didnt actually change, the meta did. And when it changes again it could very likely kick them out again like the first 2 years.

The suggested changes are completely over the top. It’s entirely aimed at completely destroying the profession as a whole. Making them weak in the moment where they fit best in the meta, and when the Pendulum of Meta swings again?

This games pvp community is unimaginitive. To small and they cannot imagine their way into a new meta without anet stepping in and buff/nerfing everything for them.
Instead of taking the literally tens of thousands of builds and finding a new way to beat the meta, people cry to anet to change the meta for them. Preferably something that fits them best.

^ this person just hit the nail in the head

People defending slick shoes and instant cast over-charge shot are BAD at landing reasonable cast times. ANET should not be balancing on making bad play viable.

One of those things need to get nerfed, period. Learn to play, get better at landing reasonable skills so that if slick shoes/overcharge gets nerfed properly then it would still be useful, stop defending cheese just because your mechanics are low. Frame-eater slick shoes is NOT BALANCED specially when vampirism runes exist.

If they’re going to keep the “frame-eater” part of slick shoes, then at least lets start by making the OIL SLICK utility into THE stun break instead of the tool belt skill as an immediate fix. CC should counter engi, but right now? You don’t even need to land 1200 range grenades because of how forgiving 23 second + reset stun break is on Engi with vampirism and 16-20 second gear shield. It takes no skill.

P.S Not only slick shoes deserves a nerf.
Shoutbow, D/D ele, Cele Engi, all specifically needs nerfs specially with what they shown on the specializations.

BlackTruth.6813:

People defending slick shoes and instant cast over-charge shot are BAD at landing reasonable cast times. ANET should not be balancing on making bad play viable.

One of those things need to get nerfed, period. Learn to play, get better at landing reasonable skills so that if slick shoes/overcharge gets nerfed properly then it would still be useful, stop defending cheese just because your mechanics are low. Frame-eater slick shoes is NOT BALANCED specially when vampirism runes exist.

If they’re going to keep the “frame-eater” part of slick shoes, then at least lets start by making the OIL SLICK utility into THE stun break instead of the tool belt skill as an immediate fix. CC should counter engi, but right now? You don’t even need to land 1200 range grenades because of how forgiving 23 second + reset stun break is on Engi with vampirism and 16-20 second gear shield. It takes no skill.

P.S Not only slick shoes deserves a nerf.
Shoutbow, D/D ele, Cele Engi, all specifically needs nerfs specially with what they shown on the specializations.

I can agree with on d/d ele requiring nerfs, the passive elements of the ..elementalist should be reduced or removed in favour of far stronger active defenses that benefit wise and skillful gameplay.

The major problem of slick shoe is the revamped stability which now is not enough to counter these multiple sources of CC, maybe they should give some small buffs to stability

@Terrahero.9358: you forgot all the nerfs other classes received, runes and amys added and stability changes…. but yeah let’s ignore the game and see engis in vacuum.

Half of the changes proposed don’t even change mechanics but just indicator for better visibility of traits/skills. How is it over the top, please explain. You can see eles attunments, you can see revealed debuff on thieves, you can see warrior stances, but omg seeing engi kits would actually make them unplayable?

Supreme.3164:

BlackTruth.6813:

People defending slick shoes and instant cast over-charge shot are BAD at landing reasonable cast times. ANET should not be balancing on making bad play viable.

One of those things need to get nerfed, period. Learn to play, get better at landing reasonable skills so that if slick shoes/overcharge gets nerfed properly then it would still be useful, stop defending cheese just because your mechanics are low. Frame-eater slick shoes is NOT BALANCED specially when vampirism runes exist.

If they’re going to keep the “frame-eater” part of slick shoes, then at least lets start by making the OIL SLICK utility into THE stun break instead of the tool belt skill as an immediate fix. CC should counter engi, but right now? You don’t even need to land 1200 range grenades because of how forgiving 23 second + reset stun break is on Engi with vampirism and 16-20 second gear shield. It takes no skill.

P.S Not only slick shoes deserves a nerf.
Shoutbow, D/D ele, Cele Engi, all specifically needs nerfs specially with what they shown on the specializations.

I can agree with on d/d ele requiring nerfs, the passive elements of the ..elementalist should be reduced or removed in favour of far stronger active defenses that benefit wise and skillful gameplay.

The major problem of slick shoe is the revamped stability which now is not enough to counter these multiple sources of CC, maybe they should give some small buffs to stability

Lol, says you who thinks that the changes they’re making are good. Because losing EA’s for Geomancer’s defense will require much skillful play.

You should not talk about skill when you lack any understanding of gameplay and balance, on top of that you completely ignore basic principles of math.

You must be another one of those “heroes” who think geomancer’s defense is any different than a current ele speccing 30 in earth as you ofc don’t know that they’re removing stats from traitilines so I really don’t know how you of any others come to the conclusion that geomancer’s defense add anything in particular.

The elementalist is the only class that will retain the benefits of maxing a toughness line even before using any toughness based amulet this is your bone for the removal of EA from master take it or leave !

You and other wannabe PvPers completely ignore the concept of specialization vs versatility , one it’s not supposed to overtake the other like current d/d ele does; but I’m done explaining that, you and most other have this really thick skull..no words goes through it.

Nobody ever said that a d/d ele should not support or that they don’t deserve a defining mechanic, it’s just that EA is too strong to be the one…but that again is too kittening hard for you to get it

Supreme.3164:

You should not talk about skill when you lack any understanding of gameplay and balance, on top of that you completely ignore basic principles of math.

You must be another one of those “heroes” who think geomancer’s defense is any different than a current ele speccing 30 in earth as you ofc don’t know that they’re removing stats from traitilines so I really don’t know how you of any others come to the conclusion that geomancer’s defense add anything in particular.

The elementalist is the only class that will retain the benefits of maxing a toughness line even before using any toughness based amulet this is your bone for the removal of EA from master take it or leave !

You and other wannabe PvPers completely ignore the concept of specialization vs versatility , one it’s not supposed to overtake the other like current d/d ele does; but I’m done explaining that, you and most other have this really thick skull..no words goes through it.

Nobody ever said that a d/d ele should not support or that they don’t deserve a defining mechanic, it’s just that EA is too strong to be the one…but that again is too kittening hard for you to get it

Seeing as you’ve been proven wrong many and many times by several people, I would say it’s probably you who does not understand the class nor gameplay, balance or math (check other threads where your math was proven wrong).

Yeah, ofc I don’t know you will no longer have the stats tied to trait lines (check other threads to prove yourself wrong). It will actually add something, which is 20% damage reduction within 600 range. However, you fail at math again. Current ele can only use 14 points, therefore the ele having 30 in earth will lack the survability somewhere else. So current meta spec will lose 20 toughness, but gain Geomancer’s defense. I don’t think the trait is good, nor it promotes skillful play, but you have been praising the changes in so many threads. If you want ele to have more skillful play, then I seriously don’t understand why you think the changes are good.

‘’Me and all the other wanna be pvpers’’ actually do understand the concept of ‘’specialization vs versatility’‘. It’s you who has been claiming that once d/d is out of meta, ele will have different specs to play. It has been explained to you that it does not work like this.

As proven in other threads you do not understand the concept of d/d ele, nor its gamplay or anything remotely involving d/d ele. You do not understand why d/d ele is losing team support or why it won’t be a pick in the future and you still keep saying what should be done about the spec. If you do not understand, then please do not try to balance the class yourself.

But then again you’re the kind of person who thinks that:

1. ER is a good heal with trickery thieves around
2. Stop, Drop and Roll is a good trait
3. d/d ele should be out of meta
4. Fresh air can compete with thieves and mesmers because it has healing ripple, soothing mist and one of the EA’s

The community has been asking for more options when it comes to ele and all classes in general. The changes won’t create many viable builds, as ele will be forced to trait into survability even more. Making EA a baseline (a selfish, nerfed version) would not be too strong and would actually create wider build diversity. It has been explained how this could work and why it wouldn’t be too strong to you several times, maybe go read it again.

And you know, if I was at the point when 90% of people on the forums disagree with me, I would revaluate what I write again, just a hint.

Terrahero.9358:

Engineers received very little buffs in the past 12 months. But suddenly went from “garbage tier” where it was a very unpopular profession because of how poorly it performed, to “amagad please destroy! its so op!”

Engineers didnt actually change, the meta did. And when it changes again it could very likely kick them out again like the first 2 years.

Celestial Amulet was made viable + rune/sigil changes. Shortly after, cele rifle engineer is born. Cele rifle engi couldn’t have existed 2 years ago and been viable.

People asking for intelligent nerfs want the uncounterable passive damage toned down and select skills brought in line with their role. Most people just as for skills with obvious animations or effects to be nerfed, even though those are fine.

@Laraley.7695

For the last time you are not the community, you’re part of a whining small vocal ele minority, that has no real concept of balance. And unreasonable angry mob think they have the right to speak because of numbers…you should get a reality check

I suggest you to go and play all other profession…maybe then you’ll get an idea of what it means to face a cele d/d ele and what counterplay means

There is very little timeframe where you can actually harm the ele using a d/d cele build and that would be no problem at all if that small timeframe would be a direct consequence of the player skill level..which is not now

The ele community has grown too comfortable with the cele meta, all concepts of strafing, positioning, strategy, team play are all inevitably lost; your typical ele these days will just rush head first in the fight with perma protection/vigor, that’s too strong and I’m glad is gone.

No more words…you’re an incompetent player who completely ignore the meaning of the word: balance. You only see the world from your narrow d/d ele point of view…it’s hopeless trying to get some sense into you

And still talking about geomancer’s defense, it’s clear that you lack any notion of “logical thinking”, including the math behind it.

Edit- as I know that you’re incapable of any sort of lateral thinking when I was talking about perma protection/vigor finally gone, I was referring to overall self-sustain and don’t even worry about soothing ice because it’s getting nerfed at 200%, possible along with geomancer ‘s defense (of which you still don’t understand the simple math behind it)

Supreme.3164:

@Laraley.7695

For the last time you are not the community, you’re part of a whining small vocal ele minority, that has no real concept of balance. And unreasonable angry mob think they have the right to speak because of numbers…you should get a reality check

I suggest you to go and play all other profession…maybe then you’ll get an idea of what it means to face a cele d/d ele and what counterplay means

There is very little timeframe where you can actually harm the ele using a d/d cele build and that would be no problem at all if that small timeframe would be a direct consequence of the player skill level..which is not now

The ele community has grown too comfortable with the cele meta, all concepts of strafing, positioning, strategy, team play are all inevitably lost; your typical ele these days will just rush head first in the fight with perma protection/vigor, that’s too strong and I’m glad is gone.

No more words…you’re an incompetent player who completely ignore the meaning of the word: balance. You only see the world from your narrow d/d ele point of view…it’s hopeless trying to get some sense into you

And still talking about geomancer’s defense, it’s clear that you lack any notion of “logical thinking”, including the math behind it.

Edit- as I know that you’re incapable of any sort of lateral thinking when I was talking about perma protection/vigor finally gone, I was referring to overall self-sustain and don’t even worry about soothing ice because it’s getting nerfed at 200%, possible along with geomancer ‘s defense (of which you still don’t understand the simple math behind it)

You’re really funny.

Your ‘’whining small vocal ele minority’’ actually includes majority of people playing ele and many top players, too. You think your opinion matters more because what?

I actually do play other professions, thank you very much for the advice. Let me also state that most of my playtime on ele is fresh air, but I do care about the class and its apperance in top teams, too unlike you.

You have some weird idea of a d/d ele being unkillable spec, which is totally not. Also, you cannot comprehend what the changes will bring and why ele players are actually worried about the changes. Newsflash, the perma protection (which it is not atm) is not gone, neither is the vigor. You’re screaming about a d/d ele being unkillable, while the survability of a d/d ele won’t change after the patch, but it will lose team support, which you cannot understand.

I’m an incompetent player…After the stuff you suggested, I wouldn’t ever dare to call anyone incompetent if I were you.

I am talking about Geomancer’s defense, because you fail at logic and math in your statement, so I corrected you.

Nice edit, makes no sense. ‘’Perma vigor and protection is gone’’ >> ‘’Oh I meant less self sustain.’’

Is it too hard too keep the “OMG I died to an Engi today, plz nerf!” contained in one thread? I mean seriously, do you think any of your nerf ideas are original? Heck, most of them aren’t even logical. Not to mention everything is changing with HoT anways. Just……wow. People really hate losing.

Cynz.9437:

@Terrahero.9358: you forgot all the nerfs other classes received, runes and amys added and stability changes…. but yeah let’s ignore the game and see engis in vacuum.

Half of the changes proposed don’t even change mechanics but just indicator for better visibility of traits/skills. How is it over the top, please explain. You can see eles attunments, you can see revealed debuff on thieves, you can see warrior stances, but omg seeing engi kits would actually make them unplayable?

You make it sound like professions got destroyed, which of course never really happend. Underused traits got buffed, some over used stuff got a little nerf (MAYBE). Biggest nerf Warriors got f.e. was the Adrenaline change, and theyre still in the meta just fine. So nothing earthshattering really happend.

But you’re right, we shouldnt look at a vaccuum. But explain to me this then, if you believe the nerfs to other professions are the reason engineers prevail:

We have profession, A, B and C.
A and B are good, C sucks.
Patch time!
C remains relatively unchanged, A and B are nerfed so hard they are now worst than C.

Why is your solution to the problem, if you believe this is what happend, “Nerf C”, rather than “buff A and B again”?

This thread is fascinating. You have people crying about nerfs and you have people making lists of what should be boosted amazing. /grabs popcorn

Terrahero.9358:

Cynz.9437:

@Terrahero.9358: you forgot all the nerfs other classes received, runes and amys added and stability changes…. but yeah let’s ignore the game and see engis in vacuum.

Half of the changes proposed don’t even change mechanics but just indicator for better visibility of traits/skills. How is it over the top, please explain. You can see eles attunments, you can see revealed debuff on thieves, you can see warrior stances, but omg seeing engi kits would actually make them unplayable?

You make it sound like professions got destroyed, which of course never really happend. Underused traits got buffed, some over used stuff got a little nerf (MAYBE). Biggest nerf Warriors got f.e. was the Adrenaline change, and theyre still in the meta just fine. So nothing earthshattering really happend.

But you’re right, we shouldnt look at a vaccuum. But explain to me this then, if you believe the nerfs to other professions are the reason engineers prevail:

We have profession, A, B and C.
A and B are good, C sucks.
Patch time!
C remains relatively unchanged, A and B are nerfed so hard they are now worst than C.

Why is your solution to the problem, if you believe this is what happend, “Nerf C”, rather than “buff A and B again”?

except there is D, E, F that were worse than A, B and C from begin with and remain worse
so devs would have to buff A,B,D,E,F just to put them on same line with C….

Exedore.6320:

Another poster said that there are lot of small things which lead to celestial rifle engineer being too powerful. That’s accurate, but there are a few outliers. In my view, these are the major offenders and how the upcoming trait changes address them.

• Incendiary Powder Damage bonus is far too large for an unavoidable proc. It’s applied by anything, including ground-target abilities. This is 2000-2500 damage per proc for a cele rifle build. Most master level traits add only 10% damage and only under specific conditions.
  With the trait changes, burning is lower damage per application. Incendiary Powder is moving to a different trait line and will likely see further changes to smooth the damage and reign in its total damage.
• Grenade Kit + Grenadier Grenadier provides a 50% bonus to Grenade Kit skills #1-#5. In order to keep the untraited kit relevant, the traited kit ends up dealing more damage than melee weapons on top of spitting out multiple conditions and vulnerability stacks. The multitude of conditions make Incendiary Powder hard to remove, nearly guaranteeing it will deal its full damage.
  With the trait changes, the current Grenadier trait is baseline, allowing ANet to better tune the kit’s damage without having to worry about a lesser version of the kit being useless. Assuming the new grenade kit is dealing damage more comparable to a ranged weapon, it will significantly hinder cele rifle builds.
• Condition Duration from Explosives Trait Line Engineers get +30% condition duration from the explosives line, which makes Grenade Kit conditions more potent and makes movement impairing conditions stronger. For example, Net Shot’s immobilize goes up by 0.6 seconds, which allows another attack in the CC chain.
  With the trait changes, the condition duration increase is gone, which reduces the soft CC durations to their base values.

With the trait overhaul in a few months, engineer should be in a better spot. I wouldn’t get my hopes up for a balance patch before then, which does suck. It’s also somewhat counter-productive to propose changes knowing that the system will drastically change anyway.

I agree with this, accept for grenadier, fine as is, its definitely not a 50% improvement.

GrandHaven.1052:

I agree with this, accept for grenadier, fine as is, its definitely not a 50% improvement.

Yep. They always balanced the whole kit over the grenadier-traited version, anyway. The untraited version just had no way of being relevant in the slightest since they choose to give such a big bonus to a trait (or since they designed a grandmaster trait to give a bonus to a single kit/utility).
I wouldn’t even call it an improvement, anyway. If anything, it is a given – if it was considered the baseline for balancing purposes, it should be baseline even in practice.

Anyway, i can’t understand how people still compare the engineer with other classes. I always see comparisons about its traits and skills, but people never consider that something has to make up for the lack of the second weapon set, be it skills or traits. It is merely logical.

Manuhell.2759:

GrandHaven.1052:

I agree with this, accept for grenadier, fine as is, its definitely not a 50% improvement.

Yep. They always balanced the whole kit over the grenadier-traited version, anyway. The untraited version just had no way of being relevant in the slightest since they choose to give such a big bonus to a trait (or since they designed a grandmaster trait to give a bonus to a single kit/utility).
I wouldn’t even call it an improvement, anyway. If anything, it is a given – if it was considered the baseline for balancing purposes, it should be baseline even in practice.

Anyway, i can’t understand how people still compare the engineer with other classes. I always see comparisons about its traits and skills, but people never consider that something has to make up for the lack of the second weapon set, be it skills or traits. It is merely logical.

Common problem in the PvP forum. Comparing apples with elephants.

Manuhell.2759:

but people never consider that something has to make up for the lack of the second weapon set, be it skills or traits. It is merely logical.

They have this. It’s called kits.

And before you start talking about how they have to take up a utility slot, consider the following:
Double kit is standard. With a double kit engi, you are trading , you are trading 4 weapon skills (I’m not going to count auto attacks here) and 2 utility slots for 10 skills (if you don’t include kit auto attacks but include toolbelt skills). Only 6 of these 10 skills need to be useful for the trade to be worth it.

Random Weird Guy.3528:

They have this. It’s called kits.

And before you start talking about how they have to take up a utility slot, consider the following:
Double kit is standard. With a double kit engi, you are trading , you are trading 4 weapon skills (I’m not going to count auto attacks here) and 2 utility slots for 10 skills (if you don’t include kit auto attacks but include toolbelt skills). Only 6 of these 10 skills need to be useful for the trade to be worth it.

It may be a de facto standard, but kits are still an optional type of utilities. Unless you want to say they designed and balanced the whole class upon the assumption that every engineer would use 2 kits (something that, trait-wise, doesn’t even make sense – why do we even have grandmaster traits related to other utility types then, if we aren’t supposed to specialize in those ones? It would be a waste of points).
Even then, taking in account toolbelt slots isn’t exactly correct – while they do depend on our utilities, they are still a class mechanic. Unless you bring other class mechanics on the equation as well, they shouldn’t be accounted for.
But ultimately, it doesn’t even make sense from a design standpoint – why put the supposed cornerstone of our balancing as something optional? It would have made more sense to put them as the proper class mechanic then, instead of the toolbelt, like they did with attunements. But they didn’t do it – they made them optional.

If anything, a more logical approach could have been to make the other utilities “as strong” as a kit. And it means that, on average, they would be better than other classes’ utility skills.
It makes sense. If “weapon skills 1(A) + weapon skills 2(A) + traits(A) + utilities(A) + class mechanics (A)” must be equal to “weapon skills 1(E) + traits(E) + utilities(E) + class mechanics (E)”, with A=“Another class” and E=“Engineer”, one way to accomplish that is to have utilities(E) comparatively bigger than utilities(A) and the other factors somehow equal. The same could be accomplished with a combination of factors. As they’re lesser in numbers they could even be all better than the average to achieve that result.
And that’s why the comparisons with other classes can’t make sense. They achieve the same result with a different formula, and thus using other factors in their calculations. Using the same factors in the engineers’ formula just wouldn’t work, and using the engineers’ factors in their formulas wouldn’t work either.
The same is true with elementalists, by the way, albeit with different formulas.

Cynz.9437:

Terrahero.9358:

Cynz.9437:

@Terrahero.9358: you forgot all the nerfs other classes received, runes and amys added and stability changes…. but yeah let’s ignore the game and see engis in vacuum.

Half of the changes proposed don’t even change mechanics but just indicator for better visibility of traits/skills. How is it over the top, please explain. You can see eles attunments, you can see revealed debuff on thieves, you can see warrior stances, but omg seeing engi kits would actually make them unplayable?

You make it sound like professions got destroyed, which of course never really happend. Underused traits got buffed, some over used stuff got a little nerf (MAYBE). Biggest nerf Warriors got f.e. was the Adrenaline change, and theyre still in the meta just fine. So nothing earthshattering really happend.

But you’re right, we shouldnt look at a vaccuum. But explain to me this then, if you believe the nerfs to other professions are the reason engineers prevail:

We have profession, A, B and C.
A and B are good, C sucks.
Patch time!
C remains relatively unchanged, A and B are nerfed so hard they are now worst than C.

Why is your solution to the problem, if you believe this is what happend, “Nerf C”, rather than “buff A and B again”?

except there is D, E, F that were worse than A, B and C from begin with and remain worse
so devs would have to buff A,B,D,E,F just to put them on same line with C….

Except D, E and F were better as well. I used a simple example, but if you want to get the full picture.

There was A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H.
Only H shunned slightly more than C, everyone else was much more popular then either C and H. (H being Mesmers incase you hadnt figured it out)

GrandHaven.1052:

I agree with this, accept for grenadier, fine as is, its definitely not a 50% improvement.

2 grenades baseline and 3 traited, therefore it’s a 50% increase. You can argue that not all the grenades hit on every toss, but that’s true on the untraited version as well.

The issue is that when all the grenades hit, which isn’t hard when you’re at mid range or against a CC’ed opponent, the traited basic attack is doing more damage than a melee weapon. Traited Shrapnel and Frost grenades are better than a lot of melee and mid-range burst abilities.

Exedore.6320:

GrandHaven.1052:

I agree with this, accept for grenadier, fine as is, its definitely not a 50% improvement.

2 grenades baseline and 3 traited, therefore it’s a 50% increase. You can argue that not all the grenades hit on every toss, but that’s true on the untraited version as well.

The issue is that when all the grenades hit, which isn’t hard when you’re at mid range or against a CC’ed opponent, the traited basic attack is doing more damage than a melee weapon. Traited Shrapnel and Frost grenades are better than a lot of melee and mid-range burst abilities.

The spread on 3 increases dramatically with the trait vs 2 without, its definitely a great improvement, but not 50% since you are almost going to miss many of them, more so than when only 2 are being thrown.
If you are using grenade kit at anything over 600 range, you are doing it wrong, in 90% of cases you are using them at near melee anyway.

Freeze grenades larger AoE is a bit rediculous however, but the trait isn’t influencing that to a significant degree.
As someone else mentioned, kits and weapons are balanced around the “improvement” trait, not around the base.