Guild Wars 2

….
First my stats:

Toughness: 2279
Armor: 3199
Condition dmg: 1239
Health Points: 11805

A thief takes almost 10k from life in just 3 hits……. And when I watch my dmg I just giggle with the slow ticking conditions. If you want higher HP for your character you loose toughness and die almost in the same speed but with higher dmg ouput from your opponents.

Fix your game, this is 2012 and not 2001 where companies were more new to find out an acceptable class balance…the standard of this game is rather beta, very disappointed and this is only one example out of others.

are you a Guardian? Considering low hp and high armor.

Well, I will mention the class later but at the moment stats are only important.

agree my engi have a little more armor than you and 23k hp ,they hit me for 7 and 8 k im like, that god im bunker build 0>0 they need nerf , they dont one shot me but hit me so hard at the end they just kill me after i use all my dodge roll and defensive cd they just reset and another 5k follow by a 8k then 2 hs of 4k …..

i disagree if you would say your class i could easily throw you a decent build.
Because atm you are having a problem and its low hp there are multiple options for fixing that starting from proper amulets whit more health while sacrificing other stats but you will survive burst and be able to actually play your spec

It is about dmg absorbing with high defensive stats and not high hp.

cough Retaliation
cough Protection
cough absorb bubbles
cough knockbacks
cough not standing still
cough dodging
cough Aegis
cough block abilities
L2P loogey

i don’t really feel like explaining the worth of stats and how the value shifts when you acquire too much of a stat. Because atm your stats are actually worse then if you got some hp instead of toughness. You can think ouh i`ll go 1 billion toughness and sit on 2hp but mister there are base values, diminishing returns that will roflstomp your 11805hp

Knyx, these are only excuses, which cover the issues ingame currently.
Ottigan, it is about high defensive values against incomming dmg. That the subject here nothing else. If you raise the HP your defensive values goes down and the incomming dmg will increase.

Well if this is your stance then cya, i see no reason to try and help here.

Cya, you wont help here since its a problem case for the company. And they know it.

the thing is i do all of the above a gor prot , ret, dodge and i live long , sometimes they just leave that not ,the point the point is that they still hit really hard and no matter if you move or do all of the above they can still like 3 kitten you when you prot is down and you CD are down is just a matter of time and pls dont start with the is a l2p thing just please

@ Ricky prove it

I am sorry but I laughed yet again because you are not the first person to claim something that is impossible even in wvwvw with 3 orbs.

You are not getting 3 shotted if you had protection up even for a second.
You are not getting 3 shotted if you dodged (think how long dodges are in relation to spammable abilities)
You are not getting 3 shotted if you had retaliation up against a burst thief, in fact he would be dead or running away
You are not getting 3 shotted if you did ANYTHING other then stand still

Aside everything else you can do, or can not, I often wonder as well what the real benefit of toughness is.

In theory it should give you point per point the equivalent of stripping your opponent of power points.
But still I don’t often ‘feel’ the difference between medium and high toughness.

By itself, it seems a rather weak defense.

Here are some screenshots and I have one problem I cant follow, maybe someone can help me out here:

It was a 1v1 situation so no other player did hit me or was around:

1. incomming dmg like described already
http://img6.imagebanana.com/img/fhaonb1a/gw073.jpg

2. this shows the screenshot I took after I died and where I have a question about it:

Like you see, my toughness did decrease by a higher amount, but aswell other stats, including my armor values and HP:

Toughness down, from 2279 down to 1889 !
http://img6.imagebanana.com/img/uhtkdjw0/gw074.jpg

Which ability or what is the reason that my toughness, my armor values and my HP did lower ? Thank you. Back in the mist my defence and HP values are back to normal, or before the fight.

Toughness without something to compliment it is non-existent. No protection? You still die in a few bursts. Simply working as intended. No dodge or decency to predict? Yep working as intended.

Moxrox, my guess is that the stats lowered to your base stats (gear armor included) because none of your traits were counted when dead.

It’s how they were before you died that matters, not after.
Were they lower than too?

Power wins vs Toughness because the damage formula double-dips into power.
Let’s say an attack deals a base 100 damage and has a 0.2 Power ratio.
Let’s also say, for argument’s sake, that a character has a base of 1000 Power and 1000 Thoughness.
The damage of the attack executed by an average character against another average character is given by the formula:
(skill damage + Power ratio) * (Power/Thoughness), and so the attack deals 300 damage.
Now let’s let both characters choose a stat and increase it by 500. The attacker chooses Power, the defender chooses Thoughness. Now, in an ideal case, the opposing attributes should cancel each other out, however…
(100 + 300) * (1500/1500) = 400
The damage has increased.
And that’s just one of the two problems. Damage scales by multiplying three attributes: Power (twice), Precision and Critical Damage. Survivability scales by multiplying two attributes: Toughness and Vitality.
I could go on, but I think I’ve made my point.

On a related note what I have come to discover is the following:

Want to go high toughness? Build with healing, , and full aborbs in mind.

Want to go high vitality? Build with tanking boons and block based weapon abilities in mind

- Dodging and CC is beneficial to both

Kimbald.2697:

Moxrox, my guess is that the stats lowered to your base stats (gear armor included) because none of your traits were counted when dead.

It’s how they were before you died that matters, not after.
Were they lower than too?

I see, well the stats were normal back in the mist and are normal before fights. Will check this in the next rounds. I thought this is some ability mechanic I didnt notice. Thank you.

@Knyx.5926
after i did all like a said if you read, after that then i get 3 shoted im mean come on man after i did all that and not standin still lol ,then he reset and bye to my engi of course a long fight he dint kill me that easy but then he did lol

The Boz.2038:

Power wins vs Toughness because the damage formula double-dips into power.
Let’s say an attack deals a base 100 damage and has a 0.2 Power ratio.
Let’s also say, for argument’s sake, that a character has a base of 1000 Power and 1000 Thoughness.
The damage of the attack executed by an average character against another average character is given by the formula:
(skill damage + Power ratio) * (Power/Thoughness), and so the attack deals 300 damage.
Now let’s let both characters choose a stat and increase it by 500. The attacker chooses Power, the defender chooses Thoughness. Now, in an ideal case, the opposing attributes should cancel each other out, however…
(100 + 300) * (1500/1500) = 400
The damage has increased.
And that’s just one of the two problems. Damage scales by multiplying three attributes: Power (twice), Precision and Critical Damage. Survivability scales by multiplying two attributes: Toughness and Vitality.
I could go on, but I think I’ve made my point.

I see your point, but when you have to increase Vitality you loose toughness again and aswell your dmg output, or you loose almost all of the dmg output. It depends of the amulet. Something is miss calculated here for certain builds.

@The Boz

thanks for that, always interested in the mechanics.
My own info came from combining a few things on the Wiki, but I didn’t take the formula you posted into account.

With the carrion Amulet you get around 1560 toughness with an additional ability . It is an alternative of course if , yeah but the dmg ouput is higher aswell and your survival is way lower in general fights. But this doesnt change the toughness vs burst issues… the current pvp doesnt feel right.

The question is when is the most effective moment mixing vitality and toughness. You can see this when you build classes with very high HP but your amount of toughness is low, the enemy will go through you like butter.

@Boz: According to wiki the damage formula is:
Damage done = (weapon damage) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)
Based on that there is no double power. And doubling the power and armor should keep damage same. However the thing is that starting power is much lower than starting armor. You need more toughness to double your armor than power to double your power.

Didn’t read thread, but those stats are pretty low imo
Maybe you are playing like some light armor class or something, because that’s pretty ridiculously low for a guardian, or even engi or warrior.
Post screenshot of your equip and traits, it is very surprising to me you have such low stats

The class should not play a role since it is about armor and toughness values, this is not a class discussion. But I will tell you the secret, it is an Elmentalist in this case. And there is not much difference to a tank warrior when it comes to toughness and armor values i.e. 3487 armor and 2215 toughness has my warrior if I use him as a tank.

Wethospu.6437:

@Boz: According to wiki the damage formula is:
Damage done = (weapon damage) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)
Based on that there is no double power. And doubling the power and armor should keep damage same. However the thing is that starting power is much lower than starting armor. You need more toughness to double your armor than power to double your power.

I see now. In that case, it’s either my own understanding that is outdated, or someone edited the article wrong. Will try to test.

Wow not another whine thread…
Burst dmg is totally fine and that’s the only thing a BS thief/100B warrior or whatsoever has.
You want burst damage nerfed? Fine but then nerf survivability of certain classes/builds as well.
1on1 against bunker builds and be happy to never kill them with conditions or any other form of sustained dps. Trying to burst them is often the only viable option which usually fails anyway due to burst counters or insufficient damage.

Inb4 “LULZ u glass cannon thief”
I play a condition/survival build myself

I agree, it needs to be fixed…and it needs to be talked about. Balance, especially thieves and mesmers is ATROCIOUS right now.

I doubt that you even tried all classes and builds in this game over a while and collecting data.

Iam testing currently a build with 2404 toughness and 3700 armor around and hammer + mace/shield, will check back with some screenshots. The only difference here is that the class has significant more HP and is one of the weakest classes I played so far. Crazy weak but high armor and toughness and annoying abilites.

Highest incomming dmg so far with 2404 toughness and 3615 armor as a tank W.:
~ 4.6k eviscerate
~ 3k heartseeker
~ 3k Wildstrike combo (1k+/- per hit )
~ 2.2 Mind Wrack x XX
~ 1.2 100B per hit

I’ve been running an Engineer with around 1900 toughness lately. I can still keep 20 points in Power stats… haven’t been 1 shot yet, except when I was already occupied fighting someone else, and my CDs were gone and no endurance.

But I mean… Thieves annoy people with that in every game. They are sneaky like that. In this particular case I just waited until he was busy trying to backstab instagib someone, and one overcharged shot while he tried to spike, then net shot, blunderbuss, then jump shot and he was already dead before the animations were finished.

Most of those backstab thieves go down FAST. I mean really fast, even if you play bunker you can finish them off in a matter of seconds, you can pretty much load one or two conditions on them and just avoid them until they die.

Knyx.5926:

cough Retaliation
cough Protection
cough absorb bubbles
cough knockbacks
cough not standing still
cough dodging
cough Aegis
cough block abilities
L2P loogey

thief is coming! better put up retaliation because it’s pretty OP
Retaliation!
CnD – 3k
retaliation – 320
Steal – 3k
retaliation – 320
Backstab – 6k
retaliation – 320

You showed him!

l2effectivehp kthxbuy

And i am not exactly sure Vitality is worse that Toughtness , as u afraid
For example do a little test like i do

Go the Mist and try to find the <<Thief>> Npc
Equip the ur Shamans Amulet
Hit once the Thief > die > write down the stats from the Pop up death window
Equip the Carrion Amulet and do the same

For example :
Shamans Amulet > Unload = 8 hits/5330 damage
Carrion Amulet > Unload = 8 hits/7156 damage
(+300 toughtness from traits , in both cases)

Shamans Amulet : 5330 : 8 hits= 666 dps/per hit
Carrion Amulet : 7156 : 8 hits = 895 dps /per hit

Shamans Amulet : 10805 hp : 666 dps = the enemy needs 16 Unloads to kill u
Carrion Amulet : 17245 hp : 895 dps = the enemy needs 19 unloads to kill u

As u can see , the Vitality offers a little better <<defence>> as the Toughness
But Conditions are not reduced by Toughness . So Vitality is superior vs Conditions

Last time I did any calculations, Vitality came on top of Toughness in almost every scenario. The only saving grace of toughness is the effective healing buff.

Pray.9751:

l2effectivehp kthxbuy

I’m guessing you didn’t read a bit of the math thats being discussed here which is dedicated to exactly that, ehp.

Match is (weapeon damage*power*skill coeficient)/armor=damage of skill before aplying traits/crit.

1 power is neglected by 1 toughness easy and simple ok ? no need to make up stupid theories.

Stin.9781:

Match is (weapeon damage*power*skill coeficient)/armor=damage of skill before aplying traits/crit.

1 power is neglected by 1 toughness easy and simple ok ? no need to make up stupid theories.

Do you know what neglected means? Your “match” is not correct, nor is your english.

I do not care about my writing, if it is perfect or not. I just gave you the formula for counting skill damage. The formula reflects truth that attack damage gained from power, is directly affected by toughness.

If you know how to do basic math’s you understood that allready, since i allready gave you the formula.

Everyone but 1st time mmo nubs who think they are actually that good know that thieves are broken. Want to know the most common reply from thieves in game when talking to them about it? “Dont be a hater, just roll one and profit.” Problem is if you nerf them now you prolly kitten off HALF your players. Better to do it now than later before 3/4’s of your players are thieves. Or players say screw this game. Not really that far fetched, SWtoR being a prime example of players who will not tolerate this crap.

Engineer here. 1340 toughness, 24k hp. I got killed in exactly under one second and no..I didn’t use elixir U..

backstab 10k.

There should be no kills under 1 second in this game regardless if they have full toughness or full crit gear. This isn’t a FPS game.

Otherwise, roll a thief and one shot anyone who doesn’t have toughness, 1-2 shot anyone with toughness.

Krustydog.1043:

Everyone but 1st time mmo nubs who think they are actually that good know that thieves are broken. Want to know the most common reply from thieves in game when talking to them about it? “Dont be a hater, just roll one and profit.” Problem is if you nerf them now you prolly kitten off HALF your players. Better to do it now than later before 3/4’s of your players are thieves. Or players say screw this game. Not really that far fetched, SWtoR being a prime example of players who will not tolerate this crap.

No you won’t..people who like the game will stay..this isn’t thief wars 2. Most of the people who play thieves will move on to the next OP classes. Some will actually stay and learn how to fight an equal level class.

Yeah I got about half way through this and just can’t keep reading… this game doesn’t work just based off stats. So while you may be pointing out that a SMALL fix is needed in scaling of defense vs. offense (which I’m not sure I agree with considering how absurd bunkers are right now), you are missing the big picture- this games runs off of knowing your class, working with your team, and using what you have at your disposal to escape situations. You not sharing your class/saying it doesn’t matter is just stupid because you are presenting thief as the representation for offense, and yet saying the defensive class doesn’t mean anything… clearly it does, and if you did, people could help you with ways to survive against thieves. I have it pretty down on my Engi and I have 916 toughness and would get 2 shot if I didn’t react properly…

XII.9401:

Engineer here. 1340 toughness, 24k hp. I got killed in exactly under one second and no..I didn’t use elixir U..

backstab 10k.

There should be no kills under 1 second in this game regardless if they have full toughness or full crit gear. This isn’t a FPS game.

Otherwise, roll a thief and one shot anyone who doesn’t have toughness, 1-2 shot anyone with toughness.

My engi has 2900 toughness and about as much health as you. That’s when I’m bunkering and I still manage to have a reasonable power stat for my rifle. If I’m roaming I try not to go below 2200 toughness. 1340 is just completely asking to be one-shotted.

milo.6942:

XII.9401:

Engineer here. 1340 toughness, 24k hp. I got killed in exactly under one second and no..I didn’t use elixir U..

backstab 10k.

There should be no kills under 1 second in this game regardless if they have full toughness or full crit gear. This isn’t a FPS game.

Otherwise, roll a thief and one shot anyone who doesn’t have toughness, 1-2 shot anyone with toughness.

My engi has 2900 toughness and about as much health as you. That’s when I’m bunkering and I still manage to have a reasonable power stat for my rifle. If I’m roaming I try not to go below 2200 toughness. 1340 is just completely asking to be one-shotted.

Wow 2900 toughness, didn’t even think I could reach that on my engineer in pvp.
2394 is the highest I gotten till now I think, amulet, traits and runes.

2200 toughness for a roamer is superb as well, rather surprised you keep enough damage to be a roamer after that.

I’m going to take a wild guess here Milo: I think you’re confusing toughness with armor.
Armor = toughness + defense

When he said 1340 toughness, that results in 2k + armor.

wow you’re right man. I mixed up the two
The numbers I was saying are in fact armor values, sorry
I’ve got 1939 attack, 1016 precision, 1875 toughness, and 1760 vitality right now on my bunker-spec engi (3144 attack, 2939 armor, 23,522 health). I’ve actually started roaming around with this spec as well since it handles thieves so well but still has reasonable ranged damage + ton of cc.

Strange, that mostly in Tpvp bs thieves are not a problem to anyone and usually I rarely meet them further than the first map… But the current way to create a topic in this forum is probably:

If you’re relying on base stats to protect you from a thief you’re doing it wrong. You have defensive abilities for a reason… use them correctly and you should come out on top. I’m not saying that it’s easy but laying out some numbers claiming that you shouldnt get killed fast because of it isn’t going to get you anywhere.

P.S. I do not play a thief nor have i ever created one. I find their playstyle to be rather irritable. But should they catch you off guard, they deserve to kill you no matter how tank you are, simply because they’re using abilities and you’re not.

If a thief leaves you enough time to use defensive abilities, he’s doing it wrong. By the time he appears next to you, without the stealth bug/lag/whatever, you’re down at least 13k health.