Guild Wars 2

Wall of Reflection
Summon a barrier of mystic power that reflects projectiles.
Duration: 10 seconds (12 seconds traited)
Combo field: light
Recharge: 40 seconds (32 seconds traited)

Not only does this skill completely negate all ranged damage, it reflects those attacks right back at their source. The wall also lasts absurdly long time. This skill is toxic, because as a ranged class there is nothing I can do about zerg guardians casting this skill and making my contributions to fight nonexistent.

Suggestions for balance:

• Reduce duration significantly (to 3-5 seconds). Look at how League of Legends handles its game balance. There are extremely powerful skills but they never last a long time, because fights in general are fast-paced and reactive. There’s nothing reactive about casting Wall of Reflection and sitting 12 long seconds behind it.

• Remove projectile reflect. Completely negating ranged damage is good enough, but why would it also have to make opponents kill themselves? Casters and ranged attackers are often “glass cannons” which makes this ability absurdly powerful.

• Increase cooldown to 120 seconds. Being the ultimate answer and hard counter to all ranged attacks, surely its cooldown should reflect the fact that it should be used sparingly and not spammed every time it comes off cooldown for 37.5% uptime!

Stealth
Turning invisible is pretty good ability. Only way turning invisible could be better is if it would also turn you invulnerable. It makes your opponent lose targeting and if they have autotargeting setting on, aggro another target instead. During stealth you have full privacy to position yourself properly, escape, waypoint out, prepare your skills and launch attacks on your foes. This is the kind of fantasy that’s half the appeal of thief class. Other half is instakilling enemies. However, playing against stealth is not very fun. Everyone has probably experienced thieves repeatedly turning invisible and jumping around the map while you’re left wondering what you should do about it.

Again League of Legends had a champion that could turn invisible and instantly kill enemies (Rengar). Turning invisible is Rengar’s ultimate ability and has rather long cooldown. There’s indicator (exclamation mark above character’s head) when Rengar is about it kill you. League also had the kind of hygiene to not allow people to just leave during games.

Suggestions:

• Add a marker when stealthed enemy is in certain radius around you.
• Differentiate stealth from porting out / leaving the game.
• Break stealth when player does significant actions such as launch attack or blink out.

Zenith.6403:

Wall of Reflection
Summon a barrier of mystic power that reflects projectiles.
Duration: 10 seconds (12 seconds traited)
Combo field: light
Recharge: 40 seconds (32 seconds traited)

Not only does this skill completely negate all ranged damage, it reflects those attacks right back at their source. The wall also lasts absurdly long time. This skill is toxic, because as a ranged class there is nothing I can do about zerg guardians casting this skill and making my contributions to fight nonexistent.

Suggestions for balance:

• Reduce duration significantly (to 3-5 seconds). Look at how League of Legends handles its game balance. There are extremely powerful skills but they never last a long time, because fights in general are fast-paced and reactive. There’s nothing reactive about casting Wall of Reflection and sitting 12 long seconds behind it.

• Remove projectile reflect. Completely negating ranged damage is good enough, but why would it also have to make opponents kill themselves? Casters and ranged attackers are often “glass cannons” which makes this ability absurdly powerful.

• Increase cooldown to 120 seconds. Being the ultimate answer and hard counter to all ranged attacks, surely its cooldown should reflect the fact that it should be used sparingly and not spammed every time it comes off cooldown for 37.5% uptime!

Or just leave it alone; it doesn’t as you say "completely negate ranged damage. Beam attacks (mesmer great sword, ele scepter) go right through. as do MANY field/area type attacks (eles lava font, rangers longbow 5).

Zenith.6403:

Stealth
Turning invisible is pretty good ability. Only way turning invisible could be better is if it would also turn you invulnerable. It makes your opponent lose targeting and if they have autotargeting setting on, aggro another target instead. During stealth you have full privacy to position yourself properly, escape, waypoint out, prepare your skills and launch attacks on your foes. This is the kind of fantasy that’s half the appeal of thief class. Other half is instakilling enemies. However, playing against stealth is not very fun. Everyone has probably experienced thieves repeatedly turning invisible and jumping around the map while you’re left wondering what you should do about it.

Again League of Legends had a champion that could turn invisible and instantly kill enemies (Rengar). Turning invisible is Rengar’s ultimate ability is rather high cooldown. There’s indicator (exclamation mark above character’s head) when Rengar is about it kill you. League also had the kind of hygiene to not allow people to just leave during games.

Suggestions:

• Add a marker when stealthed enemy is in certain radius around you.
• Differentiate stealth from porting out / leaving the game.
• Break stealth when player does significant actions such as launch attack or blink out.

This isn’t league and I’m really glad of that. If that game is what you think is the most balanced/fun why not play it?

As far as the stealth thing goes, I’m lost what do you mean makes them agro another target instead… first you are talking about PVP but that sounds more like PVE; most wvw stuff is PvD or PVP.

As far as a marker is that’s really not needed, if you see a thief drop a smoke field mid fight do you really need a indicator to tell you he probably stealthed?

Stealth is allready quite different from porting out and leaving the game, the stealthed player is still in the area, they are still hitable with area effect attacks, you can even mash 1 and hit them…

Most stealths DO break when you attack. So I’m not really sure what you are asking for here.

Over all neither mechanic you have posted are really Toxic, or OP… Stealth is slightly anoying but not game breaking op.

Miku.6297:

I’m lost what do you mean makes them agro another target instead… first you are talking about PVP but that sounds more like PVE; most wvw stuff is PvD or PVP.

In WvW autoattacks often aggro neutral monsters when fighting stealth classes in open field.

Miku.6297:

Stealth is allready quite different from porting out and leaving the game, the stealthed player is still in the area, they are still hitable with area effect attacks, you can even mash 1 and hit them…

Problem is I don’t know that. Mesmer is near ledge and disappears. Did she use torch 4 and drop down ledge? Should I go check that? Maybe I should start frantically swinging my sword to thin air in case that Mesmer turned invisible and blinked on top of me. Maybe that Mesmer instead ported and I’m a fool for doing the above. In any case if she catches me off-guard I will die.

I’m not saying stealth is OP, it’s just not fun to play against and could be fixed.

It appears you are 4 years late to the party mate. Both mechanics have been revised several times. They remain in the same because they fit the games combat mechanic. If they were such unstoppable and game breaking mechanics we would have heard a bigger outcry. As it stands there are counters for both. Revealed springs to mind. You see a refi wall? Take a step left vor stop fireing. Both mechanics are far beyond uncounterable. One has to geht used to it, yes, but one can learn and maybe even use the complacency of the enemy to your advantage. Use unblockable attacks, with regards to stealth, two words: channeling skills.

Zenith.6403:

In WvW autoattacks often aggro neutral monsters when fighting stealth classes in open field.

If neutral monsters in wvw are killing you… It’s not stealth/reflects that are causing you to have a hard time.

Zenith.6403:

Problem is I don’t know that. Mesmer is near ledge and disappears. Did she use torch 4 and drop down ledge? Should I go check that? Maybe I should start frantically swinging my sword to thin air in case that Mesmer turned invisible and blinked on top of me. Maybe that Mesmer instead ported and I’m a fool for doing the above. In any case if she catches me off-guard I will die.

I’m not saying stealth is OP, it’s just not fun to play against and could be fixed.

That’s sorta the point of stealth, you know to be able to hide your movement/position from the enemy? If the mesmer ported, shes probably not going to catch you off guard if you mean Waypointed out… If you mean portaled, I’d strongly suggest looking on the ground it’s really not hard to see the portal entry.

As for frantic swings. Watch the animation, if you have a multi-stage 1 (many are) you will notice it tends to stick to the first swing till it connects with something (visable or invisable) then moves to the second.

Wall of Reflection acts as a “brain check”.

If you see the giant glowy wall, stop shooting at it.

BrotherBelial.3094:

These skills are not toxic, you just need to learn to play. Unloading on a player hiding behind a WoR is your mistake. You did it no one else. Stealth is fine as it is. if you went invulnerable while in stealth, Thieves would be OP.

This just seems like one players QQ thread because he’s getting owned.

That’s exactly what I’m seeing, and I don’t even PvP. It’s that obvious.

I don’t have any comments on stealth one way or the other, but when an enemy is reflecting your attacks, hold off and switch to attacks that won’t reflect. With my staff ele, I switch to skills like Lava Font and Earthquake, while my Ranger switches to melee. If it’s just a wall of reflection, run past or around it. Skills like that can make for interesting gameplay decisions if you’re paying attention.

How difficult can it be to discuss skill balance without insulting other players? I don’t need to learn to play. I know what these skills do and how to counter them also. This is a topic discussing how to balance these skills so that their power is more in line with combat flow.

Zenith.6403:

I know what these skills do and how to counter them also.

Forgive me, but…

Zenith.6403:

Not only does this skill completely negate all ranged damage, it reflects those attacks right back at their source. The wall also lasts absurdly long time. This skill is toxic, because as a ranged class there is nothing I can do about zerg guardians casting this skill and making my contributions to fight nonexistent.

Is there something you can do to counter reflects, or is there nothing you can do about zerg guardians casting it and making your contributions to the fight nonexistent?

Zenith.6403:

How difficult can it be to discuss skill balance without insulting other players? I don’t need to learn to play. I know what these skills do and how to counter them also. This is a topic discussing how to balance these skills so that their power is more in line with combat flow.

And we are telling you that you do need to learn to play because they ARE in line with combat flow. I mean how much easier a counter do you need than “step 2 feet to the side”. You are complaining about one of the most easily countered skills in the entire game. There are also the other options of “walk through it” or “don’t use projectiles” as only about 50% of this games ranged attacks are projectiles. Then of course there is the ever reliable “take 3 steps back so you are out of range of the wall” forcing the guard to either do nothing or move past it.

There are so many counters to this ability that I am actually starting to think it needs to be buffed after thinking about it.

Bring rev or scrapper, stealth problem solved.

Zenith.6403:

How difficult can it be to discuss skill balance without insulting other players? I don’t need to learn to play. I know what these skills do and how to counter them also. This is a topic discussing how to balance these skills so that their power is more in line with combat flow.

Honestly, I thought this was a troll post at first. Don’t mean to be rude but this is definitely a learn to play issue.

Also if you’re coming at this from a wvw large scale fights perspective with a longbow build (yuck) you shouldn’t be targeting the guardians in the first place. You need to be targeting the backline.

Does core guardian really need nerfs though?

Nerfing it would further the pirate ship meta. Its one of the few things sustaining frontline these days.

mtpelion.4562:

Wall of Reflection acts as a “brain check”.

If you see the giant glowy wall, stop shooting at it.

I dont disagree but at the same time reflection is currently over the top in the game, making projectiles almost useless. Guardian isn’t the main problem though, it’s Scrapper and Ele. Magnetic Aura needs to reduce projectile damage instead of reflect, and Defense Field needs to have its CD increased (or at least make it so that such bubble effects don’t work against projectiles from inside the bubble).

Zenith.6403:

Problem is I don’t know that. Mesmer is near ledge and disappears. Did she use torch 4 and drop down ledge? Should I go check that? Maybe I should start frantically swinging my sword to thin air in case that Mesmer turned invisible and blinked on top of me. Maybe that Mesmer instead ported and I’m a fool for doing the above. In any case if she catches me off-guard I will die.

I’m not saying stealth is OP, it’s just not fun to play against and could be fixed.

If the target (enemy hp bar) disappears its stealthed, if it doesnt its not.

big l2p

roamzero.9486:

mtpelion.4562:

Wall of Reflection acts as a “brain check”.

If you see the giant glowy wall, stop shooting at it.

I dont disagree but at the same time reflection is currently over the top in the game, making projectiles almost useless. Guardian isn’t the main problem though, it’s Scrapper and Ele. Magnetic Aura needs to reduce projectile damage instead of reflect, and Defense Field needs to have its CD increased (or at least make it so that such bubble effects don’t work against projectiles from inside the bubble).

If elementalist didn’t have magnetic aura, they would be insta-killed by projectiles. A reminder that even though projectile reflection is over the top, projectiles themselves are even more over the top.

Pew Pew Projectiles (PPPs) fire high damaging shots from bows and pistols like a kittening machine gun, one every 1/6th of a second. There is nothing underpowered about projectiles from thief and ranger. If you want to make magnetic aura reduce projectile damage, then make projectiles from Thief and Ranger fire at 1 per second and do realistic damage.

Zenith.6403:

How difficult can it be to discuss skill balance without insulting other players? I don’t need to learn to play. I know what these skills do and how to counter them also. This is a topic discussing how to balance these skills so that their power is more in line with combat flow.

Clearly you don’t.

Zenith.6403:

How difficult can it be to discuss skill balance without insulting other players? I don’t need to learn to play. I know what these skills do and how to counter them also. This is a topic discussing how to balance these skills so that their power is more in line with combat flow.

Hello, my friend. You do not know the skills. Torch 4 of mesmers can be seen, even if they are used in stealth, they have a obviuous animation AND sound. Pls play without auto-targetting, it is the worst, you can use. ^^
You can see, if the enemy runs away while in stealth, cause you are out of fight then. And tbh, stealth just goes for 3 seconds normally – so u need to count, dodge or doing something, it is not really hard. Thieves need to restealth after these 3 seconds, you can interrupt them. There are so many ways to counter stealth….if you are playing guard → use traps, if you are playing ele → use interrupts, while they want to stealth, if you are playing revenant → use ur mighty auto-attacks around you and time your dodges and blocks, if you are playing warrior → blocks, evade-dmg (gs3, etc..)…and so on……stealth is not op or hard to play against….

and please, the wall of reflection is, as said, just ez to counter: stop attacking. It just reflects projectiles, ele-staff-fields can be still used, fresh air can still attack, mesmer doesn’t have any reflectable skills (except staff-autoattack)…. the only thing you can hardcounter, are longbow-ranger, then jsut stop to pewpew for this time and start melee or use your pet…most classes doesn’t play with skills, that are affected by reflect….as i said, except longbow-pewpew-ranger, lich-form of necros … but please – reflection wall doesn’t kill anyone.

have a nice day!

greets
Apo

There are quite a few skills way more toxic then these. One in particular that comes to mind that some are whining about after it got a slight nerf is Moa.

Is this a joke? Of all the skills in the game you pick Wall of Reflection? lmao I hope this is a troll

BeepBoopBop.5403:

big l2p

And that’s not even joking. Also there are no ranged classes anymore since engi can now use a hammer too. Also come on you should be able to watch your enemy and figure out which of your attacks are actually reflectable, and if you die because of that, you deserve it. Same story about stealth.

The best way to understand some of these things is playing them yourself btw, so go out, play for a while and tell us if you actually still believe in what you just wrote.

dude WoR and stealth are fine.
maybe WoR could use a visibility boost like swirling winds, but its pretty much a decent ability. 120 second cd is ludicrous.

Zenith.6403:

I’m not saying stealth is OP, it’s just not fun to play against and could be fixed.

1200 range attacks aren’t fun to play against when you don’t have access to a 1200 range weapon. The ability to see your target or not has nothing to do with your ability to act on the target.

This is why stealth exists, and also why thieves, the class with the most access to stealth, can’t also use it to plink at range. Without stealth, what exactly is the thief to do in that situation? Eat damage while closing, waste initiative and cooldowns just to get within striking range, and basically be assured that no matter what, they engage you at a disadvantage. I suppose they could throw a scorpion wire and by some miracle the target doesn’t step five inches to the left.

They could also steal to teleport to your face, in the process dazing, blinding, damaging or doing a number of other customizable effects yet you don’t seem to think there’s anything wrong with that mechanic, which is a much more effective way to counter ranged builds.

Stealthing still requires the thief to spend initiative and cooldowns, but doesn’t require them to eat damage just to get the fight started. In addition, the way this game handles stealth, in order to use it at all the stealther pretty much has to stealth within visual range of his target, more often than not leaving a visual indicator of where that stealth began.

As for reflects, you as why they can completely nullify your input to a fight. Flip that around for a sec. If people can’t meaningfully halt attacks at range, then why would anyone ever play anything that wasn’t a max range build? It’s universally inferior at that point for the same reason stealth exists.

Ranged mitigation is there so that you have to pay attention not only to other ranged characters, but everybody else. it’s there not only for them to counterplay your damage, but to fore )you_ to counterplay the reflect. Turning your damage against you evens the ranged fight for that duration, meaning that ranged classes aren’t always apex predators because even at max range against melee they still have to fight on both the offensive and defensive.

Allowing any character the ability to just deal multiple attacks worth of damage with impunity to retaliation is bad design. That’s why stealth burst was nerfed until it couldn’t reliably kill people that were’nt already injured, why stunbreaks exist, and in general is healthy design.

There are a lot of problems with GW2 PvP, but ranged versus melee isn’t one of them. In that respect GW2’s pvp is actually quite fair.

It sounds to me like you have certain expectations of rock-paper-scissors balance, where the counter to range is range, and melee is damage hampered in order to gain enhanced survivability. That’s just not how GW2 is designed. Everyone is built with the potential for roughly equivalent amounts of damage, more often than not enough damage to spike down an opponent in less than ten seconds if not countered.

This is vastly different than league’s design, in which there are massive differences in the survivability or damage output of various champions to require specific synergies.

Zenith.6403:

In WvW autoattacks often aggro neutral monsters when fighting stealth classes in open field.

There is your first problem, you still have autotargeting on…this is like the training wheels options for PvE players to spam skills.

TBH, although some of it is personal preference, I believe everything under Combat/Movement should be unchecked other than Lock Target at Max Range (and if you play lololnecro, have Snap Ground Target to Current Target)

Wall of Reflect is perfectly manageable. You can 1) switch to melee, 2) switch to beam weapon (Druid staff, Mes GS), 3) reposition yourself to not eat your own projectiles, 4) wait it out. It’s fine. Ranged damage in GW2 is extremely oppressive at times so we really need stuff like WoR.

Stealth isn’t really a problem anymore since Rev, Dragonhunter, Engineer, Ranger reveals. It’s more sustainable on Thief to simply evade spam to survive the crazy damage in the game now. Probably the best stealth in the game comes from stealth gyro now, but this also has a very straight forward counter.

I dont think toxic means what you think it means, OP.