Guild Wars 2

Reading IGN this morning I saw an article about the upcoming patch. This part in particular had me scratching my head:

“The big news is the addition of new grandmaster traits, and the fact you’ll need to unlock major traits via the new trait guide items. These will be found by completing specific content, like dungeons, bosses and personal story, though some can also be bought from profession trainers. Each class will also be getting a new grandmaster trait in a bid to offer more varied build possibilities.”

I know it says, “like dungeons…etc” so I am not starting a crusade quite yet, but I still want clarification. To get these traits, do I HAVE to PvE. I hate PvE, and especially the PvE in this game, so that is a deal breaker for me.

You can spend money at the trainers to unlock them.

Reunen.7306:

You can spend money at the trainers to unlock them.

I saw that, but in this article it said, “though some can also be bought from profession trainers.”.

The word “some” concerned me. If it’s all traits, I’m cool with that..as long as it’s not crazy expensive; but I bet it will be very expensive.

felivear.1536:

Reunen.7306:

You can spend money at the trainers to unlock them.

I saw that, but in this article it said, “though some can also be bought from profession trainers.”.

The word “some” concerned me. If it’s all traits, I’m cool with that..as long as it’s not crazy expensive; but I bet it will be very expensive.

Very true ^^

They also mentioned something like: “existing characters will have all opd traits unlocked, but the new ones will be locked. Characters created after the patch will have all traits locked”.

… Does this mean I cant create a new character to fool around wih in pvp… But have to get 8 character slots, and unlock all traits on each profession and NEVER be allowed to delete and recreate one with different race/looks, because ill lose all traits?

That better not be the case…. I have alot of lvl2 haracters that are just there for pvp, and i occasionally recreate them :/.

Alissah.9281:

They also mentioned something like: “existing characters will have all opd traits unlocked, but the new ones will be locked. Characters created after the patch will have all traits locked”.

… Does this mean I cant create a new character to fool around wih in pvp… But have to get 8 character slots, and unlock all traits on each profession and NEVER be allowed to delete and recreate one with different race/looks, because ill lose all traits?

That better not be the case…. I have alot of lvl2 haracters that are just there for pvp, and i occasionally recreate them :/.

It probably means you have to buy it.

silvermember.8941:

Alissah.9281:

They also mentioned something like: “existing characters will have all opd traits unlocked, but the new ones will be locked. Characters created after the patch will have all traits locked”.

… Does this mean I cant create a new character to fool around wih in pvp… But have to get 8 character slots, and unlock all traits on each profession and NEVER be allowed to delete and recreate one with different race/looks, because ill lose all traits?

That better not be the case…. I have alot of lvl2 haracters that are just there for pvp, and i occasionally recreate them :/.

It probably means you have to buy it.

I just hope existing traits are unlocked by default for pvp… It would e rather unfair if a completely new player jumped in pvp to try it out… But had 0 traits :P

Alissah.9281:

silvermember.8941:

Alissah.9281:

They also mentioned something like: “existing characters will have all opd traits unlocked, but the new ones will be locked. Characters created after the patch will have all traits locked”.

… Does this mean I cant create a new character to fool around wih in pvp… But have to get 8 character slots, and unlock all traits on each profession and NEVER be allowed to delete and recreate one with different race/looks, because ill lose all traits?

That better not be the case…. I have alot of lvl2 haracters that are just there for pvp, and i occasionally recreate them :/.

It probably means you have to buy it.

I just hope existing traits are unlocked by default for pvp… It would e rather unfair if a completely new player jumped in pvp to try it out… But had 0 traits :P

There is a precedence though with the new heals. You had to unlock them with skill points (only earned in PvE), so I think with this addition, they are really working to pull PvPers out of the Mist. The problem with that? People like me don’t like PvE. I didn’t buy this game for PvE…and I won’t continue to play it if I’m forced to PvE.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

You can purchase any of the trait guides. Prices depend on tier and whether it’s new or not. So for every trait there will be an option to go out into the world and unlock it via specific content or just purchase it if you choose to go that route.

Wait what you seriously making us pay for traits too? This isn’t a PvE only change?

Roy Cronacher.1576:

You can purchase any of the trait guides. Prices depend on tier and whether it’s new or not. So for every trait there will be an option to go out into the world and unlock it via specific content or just purchase it if you choose to go that route.

Mind giving a ballpark?

We talking silvers, tens of silver, gold, tens of gold?

Roy Cronacher.1576:

You can purchase any of the trait guides. Prices depend on tier and whether it’s new or not. So for every trait there will be an option to go out into the world and unlock it via specific content or just purchase it if you choose to go that route.

I hope the moderators aren’t at lunch. They are going to have work clearing up all the rage which will ensue.

Fwiw, Karl and Roy are good guys who do a good job for this game. It isn’t their fault the game has a PvE direction.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

You can purchase any of the trait guides. Prices depend on tier and whether it’s new or not. So for every trait there will be an option to go out into the world and unlock it via specific content or just purchase it if you choose to go that route.

This is a terrible idea that goes directly against the founding principles of your PvP game.
It incentivizes netbuilding and flavour of the month, and decentivizes build creation and experimentation.

I strongly ask that you reconsider this in terms of the structured PvP game.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

You can purchase any of the trait guides. Prices depend on tier and whether it’s new or not. So for every trait there will be an option to go out into the world and unlock it via specific content or just purchase it if you choose to go that route.

What?? Do PvPers have to pay for their TRAITS? Are you serious? Isn’t SPVP supposed to let everyone play against everyone without gear issues?

Rickster.8752:

Fwiw, Karl and Roy are good guys who do a good job for this game. It isn’t their fault the game has a PvE direction.

Its not their fault that they cant change this awful meta for nearly a year now?

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Alissah.9281:

silvermember.8941:

Alissah.9281:

They also mentioned something like: “existing characters will have all opd traits unlocked, but the new ones will be locked. Characters created after the patch will have all traits locked”.

… Does this mean I cant create a new character to fool around wih in pvp… But have to get 8 character slots, and unlock all traits on each profession and NEVER be allowed to delete and recreate one with different race/looks, because ill lose all traits?

That better not be the case…. I have alot of lvl2 haracters that are just there for pvp, and i occasionally recreate them :/.

It probably means you have to buy it.

I just hope existing traits are unlocked by default for pvp… It would e rather unfair if a completely new player jumped in pvp to try it out… But had 0 traits :P

All current traits will be usable on a new character in PvP. New traits that are added to the game will need to be unlocked though, similar to how new skills work.

Roy, will we be able to buy said traits directly in the Heart of the Mists?

Rickster.8752:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

You can purchase any of the trait guides. Prices depend on tier and whether it’s new or not. So for every trait there will be an option to go out into the world and unlock it via specific content or just purchase it if you choose to go that route.

I hope the moderators aren’t at lunch. They are going to have work clearing up all the rage which will ensue.

Fwiw, Karl and Roy are good guys who do a good job for this game. It isn’t their fault the game has a PvE direction.

Seriously? I think if people would take a second to realize that you get gold from PvP now, they wouldn’t have the knee-jerk response of calling this anything related to PvE.

You can get all the trait stuff you need from doing nothing but PvP, so there’s no reason to get all up in arms.

GW1 was set up in a similar way and it worked out really well. Personally, I’m glad to see them picking up aspects of GW1 that worked and implementing them in GW2.

Dahkeus.8243:

Rickster.8752:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

You can purchase any of the trait guides. Prices depend on tier and whether it’s new or not. So for every trait there will be an option to go out into the world and unlock it via specific content or just purchase it if you choose to go that route.

I hope the moderators aren’t at lunch. They are going to have work clearing up all the rage which will ensue.

Fwiw, Karl and Roy are good guys who do a good job for this game. It isn’t their fault the game has a PvE direction.

Seriously? I think if people would take a second to realize that you get gold from PvP now, they wouldn’t have the knee-jerk response of calling this anything related to PvE.

You can get all the trait stuff you need from doing nothing but PvP, so there’s no reason to get all up in arms.

GW1 was set up in a similar way and it worked out really well. Personally, I’m glad to see them picking up aspects of GW1 that worked and implementing them in GW2.

It then becomes an issue of “Why can PvE players earn our PvP unlocks faster then we can?”

I dont understand why anet do this. The best part of pvp was the pick up and play aspect. you aint behind to anyone on gears or skills. why are you changing this? are we moving to a normal mmorpg progression system where newbies will get farmed by better geared veterans. i hope not.

Dahkeus.8243:

Rickster.8752:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

You can purchase any of the trait guides. Prices depend on tier and whether it’s new or not. So for every trait there will be an option to go out into the world and unlock it via specific content or just purchase it if you choose to go that route.

I hope the moderators aren’t at lunch. They are going to have work clearing up all the rage which will ensue.

Fwiw, Karl and Roy are good guys who do a good job for this game. It isn’t their fault the game has a PvE direction.

Seriously? I think if people would take a second to realize that you get gold from PvP now, they wouldn’t have the knee-jerk response of calling this anything related to PvE.

You can get all the trait stuff you need from doing nothing but PvP, so there’s no reason to get all up in arms.

GW1 was set up in a similar way and it worked out really well. Personally, I’m glad to see them picking up aspects of GW1 that worked and implementing them in GW2.

I’m definitely not up in arms, but I am very curious about the cost. I don’t like that they are heading in this direction with PvP (where each new addition needs to be “unlocked”) but I understand why. I just hope they realize something:

If you are going to add a price to the trait unlocks, it needs to be proportionate to the amount of gold a PvPer earns, not a PvE player. I have 30 or 40 gold whereas I know PvE players have much more. If it costs what would be reasonable to a PvE player, it would be a crap-ton for me.

Why the new revealed ranger GM trait is basically a bugfix and not an actual trait?

I agree that sPvP should be just “unlocked”. This is going to keep new players from being at the same place as vets and will discourage them trying to find the class that is right for them. I love the change for PvE though. You can spend gold or go do something fun to get it. It’s great for that. PvP should be unlocked though.

A good idea would be to tie these Traits into a tutorial though. New players could use it. I can’t tell you how many rank 20-40’s players who I have had to explain what Stillness does in Temple of the Silent Storm. I could see earning traits for playing different maps and completing objectives like, “Cap Stillness for your team to earn 2 points per tick of each capture point held by your team” and so on and so forth.

That wouldn’t be a bad idea.

OverlordOutpost.5961:

Dahkeus.8243:

Rickster.8752:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

You can purchase any of the trait guides. Prices depend on tier and whether it’s new or not. So for every trait there will be an option to go out into the world and unlock it via specific content or just purchase it if you choose to go that route.

I hope the moderators aren’t at lunch. They are going to have work clearing up all the rage which will ensue.

Fwiw, Karl and Roy are good guys who do a good job for this game. It isn’t their fault the game has a PvE direction.

Seriously? I think if people would take a second to realize that you get gold from PvP now, they wouldn’t have the knee-jerk response of calling this anything related to PvE.

You can get all the trait stuff you need from doing nothing but PvP, so there’s no reason to get all up in arms.

GW1 was set up in a similar way and it worked out really well. Personally, I’m glad to see them picking up aspects of GW1 that worked and implementing them in GW2.

It then becomes an issue of “Why can PvE players earn our PvP unlocks faster then we can?”

Simple: PvE has a lot more gold sinks than PvE. In other words, you may earn more as a PvE player, but being a PvE player costs more than being a PvP player,

This is counter the very premises of spvp laid out in the beginning of the game, and what made spvp such a wonderful departure from other mmos. Spvp should be completely even playing field, even access across the board.

On the otherhand, this type of change reinforces my concepts on how they are approaching the spvp feature(ette) in this game anyhow.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Quickfoot Katana.8642:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Alissah.9281:

silvermember.8941:

Alissah.9281:

They also mentioned something like: “existing characters will have all opd traits unlocked, but the new ones will be locked. Characters created after the patch will have all traits locked”.

… Does this mean I cant create a new character to fool around wih in pvp… But have to get 8 character slots, and unlock all traits on each profession and NEVER be allowed to delete and recreate one with different race/looks, because ill lose all traits?

That better not be the case…. I have alot of lvl2 haracters that are just there for pvp, and i occasionally recreate them :/.

It probably means you have to buy it.

I just hope existing traits are unlocked by default for pvp… It would e rather unfair if a completely new player jumped in pvp to try it out… But had 0 traits :P

All current traits will be usable on a new character in PvP. New traits that are added to the game will need to be unlocked though, similar to how new skills work.

Roy, will we be able to buy said traits directly in the Heart of the Mists?

Yup!

That’s really good to hear! That means our beloved HotM is getting some new NPCs, lets hope for a bank/trading post aswell

Whit.2385:

This is counter the very premises of spvp laid out in the beginning of the game, and what made spvp such a wonderful departure from other mmos. Spvp should be completely even playing field, even access across the board.

On the otherhand, this type of change reinforces my concepts on how they are approaching the spvp feature(ette) in this game anyhow.

It’s actually a quite elegant fix if you think about it:

GW2 solved the issue of PvP players being at a disadvantage to PvE players by separating PvP and PvE gear. However, the problem it created was a lack of rewards to strive for.

By attaching new talents as rewards, it allows players to still PvP without being at a gear disadvantage while still giving them something to work towards.

Yes, newer players will have less traits to compete with, but newer players are also learning the game/their profession, so a limit of options isn’t that problematic.

A similar system existed in GW1 and it was one of the reasons that GW1 PvP has such a strong legacy.

Dahkeus.8243:

It’s actually a quite elegant fix if you think about it:

GW2 solved the issue of PvP players being at a disadvantage to PvE players by separating PvP and PvE gear. However, the problem it created was a lack of rewards to strive for.

By attaching new talents as rewards, it allows players to still PvP without being at a gear disadvantage while still giving them something to work towards.

Yes, newer players will have less traits to compete with, but newer players are also learning the game/their profession, so a limit of options isn’t that problematic.

A similar system existed in GW1 and it was one of the reasons that GW1 PvP has such a strong legacy.

No, this is not the type of “reward” PVP players want. No one wants to have to unlock new traits and skills as a “reward”. That is no reward that is making you work for something that you should have in the first place. This is going backwards, NOT an “elegant fix” at all.

Now if they want to make it so that we can unlock these traits for PVE in PVP, that’s fine by me, but access to skills/gear/traits/etc etc in PVP should not be restricted by unlocks. That’s not the type of progression PVP players want.

Roy, have you considered a unique title or some other reward for players who go the more effortful way of the adventure?

Why do I get the feeling that each and every single one of these new traits will be at least as much of a grind as the 25 SP healing skills?

Being disadvantaged in terms of trait/skill build options is no better than being disadvantaged in terms of gear/stats.

All sPvP had going for it was the fact that everybody had access to the same build options regardless of how much or little time you had to spend grinding. This simple ideal is at the foundation of any truly competitive e-sports game.

Well, if sPvP wasn’t already a joke before, it certainly is now. Very funny, ANet.

Dahkeus.8243:

Whit.2385:

This is counter the very premises of spvp laid out in the beginning of the game, and what made spvp such a wonderful departure from other mmos. Spvp should be completely even playing field, even access across the board.

On the otherhand, this type of change reinforces my concepts on how they are approaching the spvp feature(ette) in this game anyhow.

It’s actually a quite elegant fix if you think about it:

GW2 solved the issue of PvP players being at a disadvantage to PvE players by separating PvP and PvE gear. However, the problem it created was a lack of rewards to strive for.

By attaching new talents as rewards, it allows players to still PvP without being at a gear disadvantage while still giving them something to work towards.

Yes, newer players will have less traits to compete with, but newer players are also learning the game/their profession, so a limit of options isn’t that problematic.

A similar system existed in GW1 and it was one of the reasons that GW1 PvP has such a strong legacy.

I find it an elegant fix, as I believe it marginalizes pvp further, and reinforces the company’s justified core dedication to the pve side of the game.

I don’t think that having traits as unlocks is what made gw1 pvp loved by many.

A limit of options most certainly is a problem if it locks them out of useful builds. If they cannot play that useful build, they will not learn it.

But honestly – new players?? lol.. sure… they will come soon I suppose.

Kaon.7192:

Why do I get the feeling that each and every single one of these new traits will be at least as much of a grind as the 25 SP healing skills?

I hope the traits cost tons of a certain currency – preferable karma since you’d still have to play the game for that.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

You can purchase any of the trait guides. Prices depend on tier and whether it’s new or not. So for every trait there will be an option to go out into the world and unlock it via specific content or just purchase it if you choose to go that route.

Here is a question that I already know the answer to (based on past history). Does, “traits will be an option to go out into the world and unlock it via specific content” include specific pvp content? Why is it that only pve specific content unlocks the traits? Shouldn’t some of the content, to encourage pve players to play pvp, be to unlock some of those traits strictly through pvp. I don’t mean gaining gold through pvp to purchase them either.

isolatedchimp.2510:

Dahkeus.8243:

It’s actually a quite elegant fix if you think about it:

GW2 solved the issue of PvP players being at a disadvantage to PvE players by separating PvP and PvE gear. However, the problem it created was a lack of rewards to strive for.

By attaching new talents as rewards, it allows players to still PvP without being at a gear disadvantage while still giving them something to work towards.

Yes, newer players will have less traits to compete with, but newer players are also learning the game/their profession, so a limit of options isn’t that problematic.

A similar system existed in GW1 and it was one of the reasons that GW1 PvP has such a strong legacy.

No, this is not the type of “reward” PVP players want. No one wants to have to unlock new traits and skills as a “reward”. That is no reward that is making you work for something that you should have in the first place. This is going backwards, NOT an “elegant fix” at all.

Now if they want to make it so that we can unlock these traits for PVE in PVP, that’s fine by me, but access to skills/gear/traits/etc etc in PVP should not be restricted by unlocks. That’s not the type of progression PVP players want.

its the same like in gw1.. my only problem with this:

all the unlocks are characterbound! at least make them accountbound.

Encouraging players to pvp would be detrimental to the game. It is better to encourage pvpers to pve.

So I have to level my character now so I dont have to pay for them?

Much has been done since this game’s release to ignore the pridefully advertised absence of obligatory grind. Of course, it was never true to claims even on Day 1. When we reached 80 on our first character, to our disbelief, we still needed to grind dungeons endlessly to gear it up—obligatory grind.

However, sPVP has always been true to the marketing claims, their manifesto (there’s even that Manifesto video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FU1JUwPqzQY). It has also been immune to the rapidly growing, obligatory grind/gear progression in the rest of the game—first the time-intensive and gated acquisition of Ascended trinkets, and now, the unfathomably time-intensive and expensive acquisition of Ascended armor and the extremely rare loot-dependent acquisition of Ascended weapons, if you don’t find crafting eminently exciting.

Arena Net can no longer claim there is no obligatory grind in any part of their game.

There are things that make Guild Wars 2 distinctively different and appealing to present and new players. One of the most unique is the (formerly) grind-free sPVP. To be able to tell friends who like MMORPGS but are fatigued by the time investment (i.e., grind) or friends who hate them them because of the time investment, to try Guild Wars 2, because there’s this one part of the game that has none of it, is a singularly compelling argument. No MMORPG out there, or maybe ever, can claim to have something like this.

Why would you wish to toss out such an amazing differentiator?

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Roy, have you considered a unique title or some other reward for players who go the more effortful way of the adventure?

Yeah there is one. Not wasting gold.

Dahkeus.8243:

^ Pure gold. I think some people forget how good they have it as a PvP-centric player in GW2 compared to other MMOs.

Yeah, those months without meaningful updates were great. I’m just loving how now I get to play 3 weeks without the one currency so even if I reach Bear rank I have no way to use the tokens until the feature patch (presumably).

Nettle.9025:

Complains about having to spend some tourney winnings to unlock 5 new traits….

Decides to pvp in a different game with both pvp gear and amp (trait) grind.

:)

There is a slight difference as this goes straight against what sPvP was supposed to be,
if the new ‘traits’ are supposed to be any kind of gold sink then I can guarantee you that your “tournament winnings” won’t be nearly enough to unlock them in a reasonable timeframe simply because the sheer amount of gold you get from PvP is far inferior to that you can get from playing some blob vs enviroment.

But by all means, there were locked skills in GW1s pvp aswell.

Dahkeus.8243:

Nettle.9025:

TainoFuerte.8136:

Rofl, just like I thought. Selling out sPvPers who got the game on the premise that we wouldn’t have to grind skills and other such nonsense to play the sPvP. I knew it was too good to be true.

Frankly, F you. F you, and F you some more. I’m going to Wildstar. GG.

Complains about having to spend some tourney winnings to unlock 5 new traits….

Decides to pvp in a different game with both pvp gear and amp (trait) grind.

:)

^ Pure gold. I think some people forget how good they have it as a PvP-centric player in GW2 compared to other MMOs.

Umm, being a pvp-centric in GW2 is foolish. Pvp is a side project mini-game here, that realistically should be receiving no further development (as it is not a worthwhile investment). I find Taino’s post hysterical for other reasons, but not because GW2 is a good pvp game. 6 months without much more then “soon” … that’s not good, that’s crap.

I actually don’t mind having to unlock new traits USING A CURRENCY THAT IS OBTAINABLE THROUGH PvP.

This is not the same as when they added the healing skills that required skill points. I definitely disagreed with that. But you won’t even have to play PvE to unlock these new traits because PvP will reward gold. This honestly won’t even be a big inconvenience to anyone who takes PvP seriously after the first day.

When I first began playing GW1, it was exciting to unlock new skills using Balthazar Faction. So in this aspect I completely agree with Arenanet. I know it may seem like a pain to older players, but trust me when I say it is way better for newer players. In the end, this actually benefits everyone, because newer players won’t have as much stuff thrown at them. And I repeat this is nothing like the healing skills that cost SKILL POINTS.

Are we really crying over a few gold when this type of system improves the progression for players who are new? Seems like people are complaining about not getting instant gratification at the sacrifice of forming a better community long term.

TL;DR

This really won’t have much effect on veteran players because they should easily afford them. But it will allow better progression for new players which will improve the transition and also grow the community.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

All current traits will be usable on a new character in PvP. New traits that are added to the game will need to be unlocked though, similar to how new skills work.

Which goes against anything sPvP was supposed to stand for. Even as recently as your second Looking Ahead for 2013:

The addition of new skills and traits on a regular basis will of course mean expanded variety of abilities, builds, and tactics in PvP as well. As these additional skills and traits are added, they’ll be automatically unlocked and available for competitive PvP just like all existing skills/traits work today.

What happened? Another mass-layoff of the old PvP dev order?

Dahkeus.8243:

GW1 was set up in a similar way and it worked out really well. Personally, I’m glad to see them picking up aspects of GW1 that worked and implementing them in GW2.

It’s nothing like GW1. In GW1, your other characters and new alts come with all the skills or equipment unlocked after you did that once on your account.

Whit.2385:

I find Taino’s post hysterical for other reasons,

Actually, you’re right. No sense in wasting more money when I can just stick with DOTA and wait and see if this miraculous Jesus patch fixes the game. Perhaps Anet going back on what the post directly above mine states will be worth it.

I like to think reasonable people don’t appreciate it when others blatantly do exactly what they say they won’t do but at this point, why bother caring?

Jamais vu.5284:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

All current traits will be usable on a new character in PvP. New traits that are added to the game will need to be unlocked though, similar to how new skills work.

Which goes against anything sPvP was supposed to stand for. Even as recently as your second Looking Ahead for 2013:

The addition of new skills and traits on a regular basis will of course mean expanded variety of abilities, builds, and tactics in PvP as well. As these additional skills and traits are added, they’ll be automatically unlocked and available for competitive PvP just like all existing skills/traits work today.

What happened? Another mass-layoff of the old PvP dev order?

Dahkeus.8243:

GW1 was set up in a similar way and it worked out really well. Personally, I’m glad to see them picking up aspects of GW1 that worked and implementing them in GW2.

It’s nothing like GW1. In GW1, your other characters and new alts come with all the skills or equipment unlocked after you did that once on your account.

Ya, that’s one of the things that many PvPers get frustrated about. Not only do we get little to no information, ever…it’s done under the notion that, “we don’t want to say things that end up changing”. It’s interesting the tiny amount of info still sometimes ends up being false.

/shrug

Terrible. I thought everyone should be equal in sPvP

Malediktus.9250:

Terrible. I thought everyone should be equal in sPvP

They are. Some are just more equal.

coming soon: ascended gear grind for spvp

Whit.2385:

Malediktus.9250:

Terrible. I thought everyone should be equal in sPvP

They are. Some are just more equal.

And I thought being more equal than somebody is only a problem you encounter in the real world