Guild Wars 2

As bland as it gets – a question for players whether they rocked a Turret engi build or not.. now that turrets are affected by critical hits and conditions:

For Turret Engies:

- has this change impacted you at all?
- are you still rockin’ your turret builds?

For everyone/anyone else:

- has the change to turrets impacted you at all?
- do you encounter turret engies as much since the patch?
- are you finding it easier to deal with turrets due to this change?

Feel free to discuss this topic amongst yourselves.

Turrets are dead in seconds vs condis

/spec

Got on my zerk GS war for giggles in ranked and turrets absolutely MELT right after they drop. Melt. It’s great.

Next thing that needs a nerf is D/D ele and Cele Engi. Lets start by making slick shoes oil evade-able.

Lets nerf warrior condition removal and healing

Yeaaaah. Instead of balancing the build out it killed it.

just a question…

aren’t turrets supposed to be on different places? and also out of fighting spot? so if all turrets will be on different place outside of point for example, enemies wont be able to nuke them down all at once (except for maybe ele meteor shower and other huge aoes), they will have to kill one by one or attack engi, that is how it should be or? it should require tactic and positioning…

but until now engineers were quite used to almost indestructible turrets even when they were in the middle of the fight, so I’m not surprised… I remember every turret engi staying in the middle of the point and all turrets just around him in a radius of small aoe skill…

The issue is maxi that in order to put enough pressure on for them to be useful they need to be fairly close. Or atleast the flame and thumper turret do. The flame turret was ALREADY squishy and now even the thumper turret dies in less than 4-5 seconds on point.

Also NOT counting that the fact that they can be hit by things like chill and weakness puts a pretty massive damper on there theoretical pressure (which as mentioned before isn’t even possible anymore). Not to mention that there death effect if youve traited for it can now be ignored by spamming blind fields.

This didn’t just nerf there survivability. This made them incredibly impractical to use. And made there theoretical maximum almost impossible to obtain. This didn’t increase the skill requirement at all. Because there theoretical cap isn’t even obtainable in a practical game. Far more so infact than any other build I can think of at this time.

so you must choose, dead turrets or strategically positioned turrets with less pressure but alive… you were just abusing their survivability, I think turrets were never meant to be in the middle of the battle but on strategic spots out of combat field… but that’s just my opinion…

MaXi thats just it. I agree with you as far as that goes. But they dont do ENOUGH on the field in order to be worth the placement requirements at this time.

I understand your opinion from your view point. But I think if you looked at the larger perspective and from the turret engineers perspective. Instead of this build being balanced now. It requires disproportionately MORE work than the result it provides is worth. In other words we have the exact opposite problem we had before. A disproportionately high reward.

BOTH need to be considered equal problems. Even turret engineers fealt the same. Which is why many suggested changes designed to force active decision making and planning on the turret engis parts beyond placement.

LIke removing all damage from thumper turrets. And the lowering the damage of the rocket turrets over charge. Giving turrets defined roles so that each turret HAD to be used in the right sequence at the right times or else they weren’t effective. Thumper would be an area CC weapon. Rocket turret would be a long ranged aoe weapon. Flame turret would be a cleave weapon. Rifle turret would be that sustained single target dps option as it is now.

Now we have an issue. You said we had to choose between dead turrets or strategically positioned turrets. Ive already said that thumper and flame turrets NEED to be close to the point….They HAVE to be or they litteraly do nothing at all.

As it is right now the thumper will die to accidental cleave in less than 5 seconds. Meaning the thumper turret simply doesn’t live long enough to do its job of controling the area around it. It can’t. Flame turret lasts even less time. ive seen one die ot a single phantasmal beserker cast….ONE SKILL CAST which is a cleaving line based aoe.

Now even there death effects which was a last ditch attempt to survive. Like a ranger using signet of stone or a guard popping that last virtue. Is safely ignored by any class with a blind. Or there popped so early in the fight they don’t matter.

It WAS disproportionate before in offering too much reward for too little play. Now its the EXACT same thing in the other direction. Offering too little reward for too much play.

It isn’t balanced.

isn’t phantasmal berserker the strongest skill of power based (usually zerker) mesmers? if this one shouldn’t one shot a turret, I’m not sure what would you like… how about builds which aren’t zerker? they should be killing a turret for 10 seconds? and how about other turrets? and the main target, engineer? even if turret die in 5 seconds, it’s 5 seconds when your enemy don’t attack you, that’s good imo, I would like my lesser elemental to be enough of a threat to be targeted before me and still survive for 5 seconds…

maybe they could increase range of some turret or something like that, but making them unkillable for lower damage builds and also able to kill a glassy player without an engineer even around is just stupid…

Maxi what you say would make sense if it (as I mentioned) wasn’t an ACCIDENTAL cleave. The same thing which is a big part of why celestial builds are meta. Youl notice both cele engi and cele ele both feature many aoe abilties. Infact those two have more aoe effects in there build than most CLASSES can reliably put out. (necro wellomancer being the only exception and its well known that necro is being held back by aspects of there core design)

And the phantasmal beserker I mentioned earlier was just an example theres no need to latch onto it. Hammer warriors clear them just as quickly. As do engis in grenade kit. Elementalists do it slightly slower in most of there builds but not by much. (A large portion of there damage is a combo of different effects)

So no. There NOT enough of a threat to be targeted before me. Because they die just by being near me. Meaning the only way for me to save them is to….be far away form them where I can’t benefit from having them? Making the cc aspects of there abilities pointless? Or the blind effect on flame turret not being useable because I have to fight OFF THE POINT where the turret is positioned to hit?

Surely your starting to see the issue. Its not just zerker builds that kill them that fast. Nearly EVERY non bunker build can kill them nearly as fast if not JUST as fast.

Also THUMPER turret is the TANKIEST turret we have. It’s entire purpose is to sit in the middle of enemy fire and soak it as it dishes out its effects. Thats the entire reason behind its existence. It can’t do that now. Which means its lost its reason to exist. Thumper turret in its current form simply shouldn’t be in the game. It does NOTHING compared to the cost of taking it in an actual fight on point. At no point should that one specific turret. The entire CORE of our on point control style. The one thing thats most iconic of the turret engineer’s effect on a node. Be killed within the first few moments of a fight.

Edit: to address your last line. Thats why so many TURRET ENGINEERS suggested that damage focused turrets should by nature be squishy and CC/Soak focused turrets should be tanky as a baseling yet deal NO damage.

Fully separating turrets into clear groups. And giving players fighting them clear targets (do I kill the thumper turret that wont deal any damage at all to me but will CC me regularly. or do I kill the turrets that are easy to kill and won’t have as much cc but do high damage to me if they hit.

Instead. they made it so that turrets can be effected by conditions and critical hits WITHOUT EVEN GIVING US THE OPPORTUNITY TO ATTEMPT TO BOON THEM.

It was a flat GUTTING of the build without even the illusion of compensation they usually provide.

Edit 2: corrected an exaggeration in the interest of honesty.

People should stop comparing turrets to other minions to start with. Engineers are different from other classes on a fundamental level.
Having a single weapon set puts a lot more strain on the importance of utilities.
A turret build can’t even have more than 10 skills available at a time – and that’s counting autoattack, healing and the elite skill. Toolbelts destroy the related turret, so either you use one or the other.
If those utilities get destroyed easily, all the engineer can do is relying on some toolbelt and the main weapon. Having few skills means those will be in cooldown quite often, leaving the engineer with the autoattack most of the time.

Take any class, leave the second weapon set out, ignore your class mechanic and use just the main weapon and the utilities. Then tell me how effective you can be. People seriously understate how limitating having few skills can be.

Meh next you will want mesmer builds that use phantasmal utilities and stånd and spam skills off cooldown.

Just wait Quadox. Soon the hunt for the “evil ai” will turn to the professions themselves. And rangers find there leash range reduced to 300 range to “promote active play” and mesmers lose the ability to create clones (because causing an enemy to attack another target other than yourself is unfair).

Just like they absolutely destroyed spirits, they do it again to turrets.

I’m not too unhappy though cuz I play condition specs as engi mostly. Now my condition engi can melt all turrets XD.

Haha toxsa just remember. When all the ai builds are gone. The majority of players that run power builds will be on you next.

Shadelang.3012:

Yeaaaah. Instead of balancing the build out it killed it.

Eliminate the problem: you are correct!

Shadelang.3012:

Just wait Quadox. Soon the hunt for the “evil ai” will turn to the professions themselves. And rangers find there leash range reduced to 300 range to “promote active play” and mesmers lose the ability to create clones (because causing an enemy to attack another target other than yourself is unfair).

Before they look at things like mesmer or ranger, they really need to go look at the newly overbuffed thief, guardian and warrior first…

DarkSyze.8627:

Shadelang.3012:

Yeaaaah. Instead of balancing the build out it killed it.

Eliminate the problem: you are correct!

Sounds like shelling a village where a single terrorist is hiding with heavy artillery…
Or removing the entire jaw because of one sore tooth.

naphack.9346:

DarkSyze.8627:

Shadelang.3012:

Yeaaaah. Instead of balancing the build out it killed it.

Eliminate the problem: you are correct!

Sounds like shelling a village where a single terrorist is hiding with heavy artillery…
Or removing the entire jaw because of one sore tooth.

Just like they did to Ranger’s pet and Spirits. (Gotta miss the spirit master and beastmaster. Both of those specs are dead thanks to the community)

While I agree something needed to be done about how tanky turrets were(running into 3 turret engi’s in ranked makes it hard to out rotate) it does seem a little over board. That said, welcome to the party!!!! You may now join Mesmers and rangers in having horribly squishy AI.
Mesmers have been asking for improved illusion health for a long time due to how easily cleaved they are and nothing will be done about it so I doubt this would be looked at again.

Shadelang.3012:

Yeaaaah. Instead of balancing the build out it killed it.

turret engi didn’t deserve to exist in first place….

Shadelang.3012:

Yeaaaah. Instead of balancing the build out it killed it.

“Killing it” means it’s balanced now. Considering the risk/reward factor this build is in the right place now in terms of viability (elohell), maybe even stronger than it should be but only with the flying turret exploit.

The only thing i’m wondering now is what the next community project will be.
Remove which spec?

serenke.4806:

The only thing i’m wondering now is what the next community project will be.
Remove which spec?

community wants zerk amulets only so they can measure their kitten

(fighting non zerkers too hard all players must die in 2 hits pls)

choovanski.5462:

serenke.4806:

The only thing i’m wondering now is what the next community project will be.
Remove which spec?

community wants zerk amulets only so they can measure their kitten

(fighting non zerkers too hard all players must die in 2 hits pls)

Worst part of the pvp community’s mindset by far.

Turrets got sbooned! This is why Anet should never listen the masses! All they do is whine and moan and wield pitchforks and torches and have no sense of anything because they are bad at the game! Hey we think this build is annoying to fight against so let’s make it worthless in all game modes! Hey this build uses AI and even though unlike other forms of AI they are immobile, can’t receive boons, can’t crit, have really, really, really long cooldowns and make the user completely defenseless and worthless without any extra dodges or weapon swaps, let’s “make it in line with other forms of AI”! #logic

You fudged up Anet and I know this will never get reverted because you guys never revert terrible changes for unknown reasons! Goshdarn it Anet you’ve made me defend turret Engis! TURRET ENGIS! WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO ME!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

naphack.9346:

DarkSyze.8627:

Shadelang.3012:

Yeaaaah. Instead of balancing the build out it killed it.

Eliminate the problem: you are correct!

Sounds like shelling a village where a single terrorist is hiding with heavy artillery…
Or removing the entire jaw because of one sore tooth.

Perfectly reasonable because those people know the terrorist is there and are hiding him.

If the engineers yapping on about turrets can’t play without them then I’m actually wondering how good they were at the profession in the first place, before the massive turret buffs happened.

Looks like it’s time to get good hey.

I don’t think machines should bleed. but burning, poison (corrosion), and vulnerability make sense. honestly it would have been enough to make them crit-able. rest was unnecessary. I know this isn’t the popular opinion, but I never had too many issues with turret engies. but I did get annoyed watching my baddie teammates get instagibbed by their turrets and cc. people are just bads in general though.

I would have rather they killed the d/d cele ele or d/p thief =)

It’s a stupid build that shouldn’t even exist in PvP environment. AI builds have no place in competitive PvP. I for one am glad the build is dead – just like Spirit Ranger and MM Necro.

It was a really dumb change, if they were going to take the easiest possible way to remove turret engi from the game they should have done it months ago.

Can they replace them with “skillful” utilities now? If it’s useless everywhere why is it there in the first place?

Oh no! You mean turret engi’s can no longer brainlessly plop all thier turrets down on the same spot where they can easily be AOE’d at the same time!? What ever shall they do?!

In all seriousness, turret engi’s will now have to play smarter, that is all. They will have to use terrain to their advantage to place their turrets tactically so they don’t all die at once. Or, be smart about when they put down their turrets instead of just placing all of them down at the start of a fight.

It’s not the end of the world guys, if you truly love your turret engi, you will find a way to make it work. I have faith in you guys, you are smarter than this.

Saying they should “play smart” to overcome the nerf is simply idiotic, if not downright trolling.

The only way to not see them destroyed is either not using them at all or detonating them yourself. And relying on a single weapon and some toolbelt while they are on cooldown (that is, a large majority of the time).
I’ll copypaste what i’ve written in another thread (there was also a suggestion for a change in their design there, but we aren’t discussing of that here).

Tell me, what did this nerf accomplish in that regard? It only made them far, far easier to destroy. Even assuming one picks’em up before they die, how do you expect one to “play smart” with a total of 10 skills (including autoattack, healing skill, other utility overcharges and/or toolbelt – since you can’t have both at the same time – and the elite)? There are just not enough instruments to work with. It even ends up being really predictable, since there aren’t many ways you can chain attacks. Let alone that it ends up on relying on the autoattack for most of the time.
Get any other class (beside thieves, that would be cheating in the context of this example) and try playing with a single weapon (or attunement) and just their utilities. Tell me how much they can “play smart”, how much they’re effective.
They won’t.

As far as their current design go, using turrets as proper turrets requires them to be tanky enough to deal damage to the opponent and fire some overcharge every now and then; because it has to offset the lack of offensive capabilities engineers get by default.
Is it terribly passive and “braindead”? Sure, and it is also extremely boring. But with the current design, it is either that or nothing.
Did they do anything to change such a design? No, absolutely nothing.
And unless they start doing something in that regard, they’ll just continue to be useless, as far as being a turret goes.

I have noticed a surplus of absolute kittened people playing as of late and have suffered for it greatly. Funnily enough my solo queue was going much better when there were turrets because now all the turret rejects have to play something else and that something else ends up my team it seems.

I can’t help but notice that most of the people rejoicing turret Engineer nerfs are posting completely childish, ill-informed, and otherwise rude comments while those who simply wanted turrets to be reworked are still posting modestly and attempting to outline why this was not the proper way to go with turret changes.

And Anet sided with……….the rude children. Way to go…….

Good job Anet, don’t worry, this reflects very highly on your decision making skills. ;P

Should go through and report all the rude attacking comments because, for one, it’s against forum rules and, two, Anet needs a good look at their supporters.

Edit: Looks like someone beat me to reporting some of these comments as they’ve already been deleted.

Manuhell.2759:

Saying they should “play smart” to overcome the nerf is simply idiotic, if not downright trolling.

The only way to not see them destroyed is either not using them at all or detonating them yourself. ….

You play smart by not putting all your turrets on the same spot, but rather spread them around the point you are defending so the person you are fighting has to run around killing your turrets or eat their damage. The fact that you are asking how you can not expect them to be destroyed shows how broken they were. The fact that engi’s used to expect their turrets to be up for the majority of a fight, despite placing them all on top of each other, shows how broken they were. So yes, you can now fully expect your turrets to die in a fight. But, so long as you don’t put them all on top of each other, or close enough to all be aoe’d at the same time, your opponent has to waste time running around DPSing your turrets instead of DPSing you.

Turret builds were a pretty brain dead way to play an engi before, now they require thought and tactics like other builds.

Shaogin.2679:

I can’t help but notice that most of the people rejoicing turret Engineer nerfs are posting completely childish, ill-informed, and otherwise rude comments while those who simply wanted turrets to be reworked are still posting modestly and attempting to outline why this was not the proper way to go with turret changes.

And Anet sided with……….the rude children. clap………*clap…….

Good job Anet, don’t worry, this reflects very highly on your decision making skills. ;P

Should go through and report all the rude attacking comments because, for one, it’s against forum rules and, two, Anet needs a good look at their supporters.

Edit: Looks like someone beat me to reporting some of these comments as they’ve already been deleted.

Sounds a lot like the incoming Celestial nerf. The amulet that had to be buffed to be worth using, and only became OP on 3 classes that received many buffs (Shouts, Ele, Engineer in general because they have so much hybrid potency).

Guess what, with the new trait system Eles are getting nerfed, Engineers will have to go into both the power and condi line to work for both, leaving only warrior with some questionable Cele scaling. But yeah, after the 6% much needed cele buff, it needs a 10% nerf.

d(‘-’d) Keep up the smart ideas.

Old Celestial = 421 stats. Now 438 (4% above before).
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Celestial_Amulet – Never used
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Celestial_Jewel

Now being nerfed from 438 to 394 per stat (supposedly), when most classes already suck with it, one or two more WILL suck with it, and one to be fixed.

It has everything to do with might stacking and/or power weapons that can double over as condition weapons (SwordBow warrior, Grenades, Dagger). And burning which is being changed… Why not WAIT to see effects before nerfing things.

I swear, 0 insight. :/

Tibs.2783:

I have noticed a surplus of absolute kittened people playing as of late and have suffered for it greatly. Funnily enough my solo queue was going much better when there were turrets because now all the turret rejects have to play something else and that something else ends up my team it seems.

This is the irony of everything about the state of turret engineers. Were they difficult to deal with on point? Yes. Were you always fighting against one of them? No. The same thing occurs with any of the meta builds. It would certainly suck to go up against a team of celestial eles, engis, and warriors wouldn’kitten Why, exactly, were turrets any different if you could also have them on your team? There’s so much hatred for this build that it’s become comical. I do still have a turret build, but I also run a FT/EG build and a celestial build on my engineer. I’m going to try out a SD build to make up for the potentially dead turret build (haven’t played enough games to verify yet), but who knows.

I still feel that turrets have a chance to be viable, in some sense of the word, but certain turrets (like thumper and even healing) have become nearly useless for anything other than a blast finisher on they self-destruction. This change really is far too sweeping. The only seemingly outburst reaction are coming from the numbers of people begging for salty, Turreteer tears. It really speaks volumes about the community.

It’s a pity they don’t fix builds. I would have really enjoyed a viable PvE turret build for HoT, but this is literally impossible. If they are going to change turrets to what they are now, they really should reconsider the entire concept of turrets and adjust them, especially since almost an entire trait line is dedicated to them.

BlackTruth.6813:

Next thing that needs a nerf is D/D ele and Cele Engi. Lets start by making slick shoes oil evade-able.

it is lol. I have evaded it multiple times, well the evade thing popped up and I was like you know outside of it. crazy huh? well, I do think it shouldn’t knock you down when you stay still- but that’s the only nerf cele needs. only reason cele engi seems good is the lack of stability and condi in the meta. not running the counters makes the build seem strong, but it’s utter kitten when the opponent is condi.

ronpierce.2760:

Guess what, with the new trait system … Engineers will have to go into both the power and condi line to work for both, ….

No, they wont, because there will no longer be any such thing as a condi trait line, or a power trait line, or any other trait line devoted to any stat. Stats are being removed from trait lines, and are instead being entirely placed on gear and base stats.

choovanski.5462:

BlackTruth.6813:

Next thing that needs a nerf is D/D ele and Cele Engi. Lets start by making slick shoes oil evade-able.

it is lol. I have evaded it multiple times, well the evade thing popped up and I was like you know outside of it. crazy huh? well, I do think it shouldn’t knock you down when you stay still- but that’s the only nerf cele needs. only reason cele engi seems good is the lack of stability and condi in the meta. not running the counters makes the build seem strong, but it’s utter kitten when the opponent is condi.

Pure condition spec are driven to instinct BECAUSE celestial ele, celestial shoutbow war are so good at dealing with conditions… What’re you talking about man. It’s the other way round. You need heavy raw power to kill celestial ele and shoutbow.

Gern.2978:

You play smart by not putting all your turrets on the same spot, but rather spread them around the point you are defending so the person you are fighting has to run around killing your turrets or eat their damage.

Cause people didn’t do that already, right?
Also, never heard of arcane concepts like “range”. Where do you expect one to put a thumper turret, outside a point? Close range turrets have to be relatively near the point, can’t be otherwise.

Gern.2978:

The fact that you are asking how you can not expect them to be destroyed shows how broken they were. The fact that engi’s used to expect their turrets to be up for the majority of a fight, despite placing them all on top of each other, shows how broken they were. So yes, you can now fully expect your turrets to die in a fight. But, so long as you don’t put them all on top of each other, or close enough to all be aoe’d at the same time, your opponent has to waste time running around DPSing your turrets instead of DPSing you.

Broken because they’re supposed to stay alive to do what they’re supposed for, hah.
If it wasn’t clear – the engineer depends on his utilities, since he lacks that second weapon. Whatever they are, be it kits or whatever.
And once those turrets are gone, the engineer has a single weapon, some toolbelts and an elite at most. Not two weapons like most classes. And that makes a lot of difference.

Gern.2978:

Turret builds were a pretty brain dead way to play an engi before, now they require thought and tactics like other builds.

I agree that they were quite braindead. But saying they now require “thought and tactics” is just idiotic. They can’t be used as turrets, because they just die too fast and an AI minion that is on cooldown almost all the time is useless, and that’s all.

Gern.2978:

Manuhell.2759:

Saying they should “play smart” to overcome the nerf is simply idiotic, if not downright trolling.

The only way to not see them destroyed is either not using them at all or detonating them yourself. ….

You play smart by not putting all your turrets on the same spot, but rather spread them around the point you are defending so the person you are fighting has to run around killing your turrets or eat their damage. The fact that you are asking how you can not expect them to be destroyed shows how broken they were. The fact that engi’s used to expect their turrets to be up for the majority of a fight, despite placing them all on top of each other, shows how broken they were. So yes, you can now fully expect your turrets to die in a fight. But, so long as you don’t put them all on top of each other, or close enough to all be aoe’d at the same time, your opponent has to waste time running around DPSing your turrets instead of DPSing you.

Turret builds were a pretty brain dead way to play an engi before, now they require thought and tactics like other builds.

Good Turret Engineers never placed them on top of each other to start with. There is no “added skill.” We just went from, “Turret Engineer is incredibly easy to play” to, “turrets are now useless in every build in every game mode excluding the healing turret.”

And everyone keeps talking as if players have to run around and melee each turret 1 by 1. Do none of you have ranged attacks? Before the nerf I could easily shut down a Turret Engi by destroying his rocket turret and then focusing down the Engi. Or if I was running condi build I just LoS the Rocket Turret andburst the Engi down with condis.

Now though, I can pew pew each turret effortlessly from range, and then burn down the now completely defenseless Engi. No amount of “skill” from the Engineer will be able to make his turrets effective anymore, and no amount of “skill” will will be required to defeat a Turret Engi.

Gern.2978:

ronpierce.2760:

Guess what, with the new trait system … Engineers will have to go into both the power and condi line to work for both, ….

No, they wont, because there will no longer be any such thing as a condi trait line, or a power trait line, or any other trait line devoted to any stat. Stats are being removed from trait lines, and are instead being entirely placed on gear and base stats.

I was referring to the move of IP to merge with Napalm Specialist in Firearms, they will generally have slightly less access to both in one tree (including less condi duration as the case may be).

Step back and look at what you are all arguing for: Essentially you want turret engi’s to be an easy faceroll class. Made evident by statements like this:

… It only made them far, far easier to destroy. Even assuming one picks’em up before they die, how do you expect one to “play smart” with a total of 10 skills (including autoattack, healing skill, other utility overcharges and/or toolbelt – since you can’t have both at the same time – and the elite)? There are just not enough instruments to work with….

Those are all you had as your own personal abilities with turret builds before the nerf. Most of your damage and attacks came from turrets. A turrent engi would just sit amongst thier turrets and let them do most of the work.

Manuhell.2759:

Gern.2978:

You play smart by not putting all your turrets on the same spot, but rather spread them around the point you are defending so the person you are fighting has to run around killing your turrets or eat their damage.

Cause people didn’t do that already, right?
Also, never heard of arcane concepts like “range”. Where do you expect one to put a thumper turret, outside a point? Close range turrets have to be relatively near the point, can’t be otherwise.

Yes, I do. Very few points have more than 2 access points, and they all have places where you can place that thumper turret by an access point where it is out of LOS, but will still effect an enemy that is approaching. Like I said, you have to tactically place your turrets. And yes, good turret engineers were already doing this, and they wont feel the nerf nearly as badly. bad turret engineers however, could and did just place all their turrets on point, and were still almost as effective as the "good’ turret engineers. Those bad turret engineers are the ones who will feel this nerf the most.

Manuhell.2759:

Broken because they’re supposed to stay alive to do what they’re supposed for, hah.
If it wasn’t clear – the engineer depends on his utilities, since he lacks that second weapon. Whatever they are, be it kits or whatever.
And once those turrets are gone, the engineer has a single weapon, some toolbelts and an elite at most. Not two weapons like most classes. And that makes a lot of difference.

And that is why all of our weapons have some form of CC for survival while you wait for your turret to come off cooldown. Like I have said: you have to play smart, know all of your abilities and when to use them. If all your turrets are dead, you move off point, CC your enemy and use your terrain to get out of LOS, this is a tactic all non-turret engi’s are very aware of and experienced doing. Non-turret engi’s have never been a “fight on point” class. Now turret engi’s have to play similarly.

Manuhell.2759:

I agree that they were quite braindead. But saying they now require “thought and tactics” is just idiotic. They can’t be used as turrets, because they just die too fast and an AI minion that is on cooldown almost all the time is useless, and that’s all.

They can be used as turrets, in the manner that I have just described: You place them around tactically, forcing your enemy to either run around killing your turrets while eating your damage, or eat the damage from your turrets while focusing on you. Yes, ranged is difficult to contend with as a turret engi, but it has always been difficult to deal with as a turret engi and frankly that’s fine. Every class/build should have another class/build that is it’s hard counter. Turret engi’s have always been very hard for melee builds to deal with, and fairly easy for ranged builds to deal with, and that dynamic hasn’t changed if you play your turret intelligently.

Sagat.3285:

Can they replace them with “skillful” utilities now? If it’s useless everywhere why is it there in the first place?

Gern.2978:

Cut to eliminate the huge waste of space.

No one is arguing for Turret Engies to be an easy faceroll class. In fact Engineers themselves have been arguing that turrets need to be reworked to promote a more active play style. Turret Engies were easy to kill before, now they are a free kill. You have to realize one MAJOR factor now.

All Turrets can now be destroyed from range in a matter of seconds now. There is no amount of “skill” in this game that can prevent that from happening.

In case you’re still confused and feeling a little clueless, this means that in a turret build, you pull out a turret, place them in the most strategic locations possible, and one ranged pew pew later you are left standing there with no Utility skills at all.

So you say well run to another point. That sounds great, you can now be that Engi that is capable of dong nothing but attempting to run away all match while contributing absolutely nothing.

What’s even worse is, sure, Turret Engies are destroyed and no longer exist as a viable PvP build, but now any other build in any other game mode that ever even dreamed of making use of a turret, can’t. Reason is, there is no scenario aside from just blatantly ignoring the turret in which Engineer turrets can now survive.

A UTILITY THAT IS ALWAYS ON COOLDOWN IS NOT A UTILITY WORTH TAKING!

Ok, got all that out. I don’t think it is possible to break it down into any more basic information than that. >.<