Guild Wars 2

This has nothing to do with bugs or exploits, I just have no clue what else to call it.

After playing Spvp and tournaments in particular, I can’t help but think that PvP would be much more competitive if we didn’t have these cheap ways of finishing off players of the other team. I’ve done it many times to players and vice versa. Anytime there’s a even battle with the enemy team, once a player goes down they immediately get finished in a unstoppable manner. The fight is then lost because they have a man advantage and you basically have to retreat to a new point.

Quickness Finishes is a main one. I’ve played a ranger for a good chunk of my PvP time and it is ridiculous. It’s not skillful or tactical. It’s literally not giving the other team a chance to react to the finish.

Invulnerable Finishes are another fight breaking stomps. Such as the Elementalist Mist Form stomps (I do this too, again not skillful, just a gimmicky way of finishing the player), Engineer invulnerable finish etc. Any class that can make them self immune to anything to guarantee a finish ruins a lot of the team based competitive edge.

Another extremely irritating finishes are the from Stealth finishes. Almost as bad as the invulnerable stomps but occasionally like maybe 10% of the time you can stop the finisher.

I can’t think of any others off the top of my head but those are the main 3 combos I’m use to. It’s hard to take PvP competitively when it’s almost pointless to try to revive your teammates. In tournaments especially probably 90% of my downed team mates will be finished with cheap combos. We do the same to the enemy team as well. But it’s not tactical, and it’s not team work.

I’ve read on the forums lately that apparently double Elementalists are a real nuisance, one reason being 2x Mist finishes. The only acceptable skill I consider actually skillful is Stability when finishing. But mist form, quickness etc are all fight breaking combos.

I don’t mind the stability/immune/quickness stomps because you’re sacrificing a long cooldown to do so. ele mist form stomps? focus him after then. warrior quickness stomps? that means someone on your team isn’t potentially eating a 12k 100b. although rangers having a 5 point talent for a skill better than a utility slot seems off.

Only thing that bothers me is stealth stomp because there is no cooldown, but, if you know he’s there atleast your team mates can use aoe knockdowns so it’s not that bad.. adds a bit of strategy.

I rather this than requiring to be a full bunker to survive more than 10 seconds vs 2 players dps, some classes even 1 spike class can put you on defensive and worthless within seconds

The team with people down first are likely to lose anyway, so it’s not really the method of stomping that lost the fight – it’s one team being better than the other.

I don’t think that true necessarily Geopro. I have a few utilities and skills to revive my team mates fairly quickly but quickness stomps makes any skills like that just not worth taking. I almost never get the chance to actually use them. Especially when one team quickness stomps and instantly rallies their whole team when they realistically should not of won the fight.

Dejay, Rangers are ridiculous with quickness stomps because of the 5 talent for sure. My job was to just switch pets and quick stomp people on my tournament team. That was my entire purpose, stack quickness based procs/utilities and swap pets for easy cheap finishes.

And the Ele Mist form finish is pretty ridiculous too in my opinion. I’ve switched over to an ele mainly because it’s a challenging class to play and I think its way to unfair. I’m immune to damage, any knockbacks etc and can still finish someone in the form. There’s literally no counter to it.

It’s the only reliable way to finish someone off. I guess it’s much more “fair” in your opinion to down an opponent in a 1v2 situation just to die / have him instantly revived by his ally while you can only watch, right?

MarcusKilgannon.5048:

There’s literally no counter to it.

There is: don’t get downed.

MarcusKilgannon.5048:

And the Ele Mist form finish is pretty ridiculous too in my opinion. I’ve switched over to an ele mainly because it’s a challenging class to play and I think its way to unfair. I’m immune to damage, any knockbacks etc and can still finish someone in the form. There’s literally no counter to it.

Ele mist form stomp is certainly good (I find it is the best use of the skill), but there are certainly counters to it. It will not work if the person you are trying to stomp can break with downstate skills (thief, mesmer, ele), if the person you are trying to stomp is rezzed before your stomp finishes (not hard without supporting damage considering no quickness), or if the person you are trying to stomp is stealthed by an ally at the correct time.

Personally, I think these “unfair” finishers are needed as I find nothing more aggravating in this game than being unable to finish an opponent because their team is built in a way that makes rezzing easy, almost entirely counter-acting all of the strategy that went into downing an opponent in the first place.

as much as this forum cries about eles being op, realistically, without RTL nobody would say much. Most of my games are on ele, sure it’s almost impossible to die if you run away as full bunker but damage is non-existant. Having a 3-4k burst on a long cooldown with no sustained is worthless. It’s almost entirely because of the capture the point mode they are so good. Trap ranger – “mine has 2 need help” Ele – “kk lol be there in 5 seconds from keep” even if you lose the fight it will stay contested a few minutes before help from either team comes while still filling a good support role with heals/buffs. Nobody complains about eng invul because they are deemed low-tier and they get 2 of them in most specs.

all that said, I don’t play full bunker because it’s boring. all of my utilities are defensive, and atleast 50-60% of traits are defensive and I still get gibbed by thiefs/mesmers if my reaction time isn’t perfect while providing middle tier burst. still decent team utility though.

also mist form stomp doesn’t work vs thieves and mesmers (ofc)

@razor I specifically said even team fights. So your 1 vs 2 comment, really doesn’t apply to anything I said. Try reading again maybe?

@Dejay ya thief/mesmer would break it but is anyone naive enough to mist stomp first time until they do their first stealth? lol. I’m not so it doesn’t really apply to me.

MarcusKilgannon.5048:

@razor I specifically said even team fights. So your 1 vs 2 comment, really doesn’t apply to anything I said. Try reading again maybe?

@Dejay ya thief/mesmer would break it but is anyone naive enough to mist stomp first time until they do their first stealth? lol. I’m not so it doesn’t really apply to me.

If you’re talking about changing global mechanics, you don’t get to pick and choose which scenarios are relevant to the conversation. Any change to stop mechanics will impact every kind of fight, not just even matches.

All of these “cheesy” ways to stomp can also be used to rez, or dps or avoid damage. Are those mechanics also unfair in the other situations?

As a mes if I blow my invuln to stomp, that’s all my illusions and a 60 sec cooldown on my best defensive move. Choices on when to use skills and what for are good, not bad.

OP makes it sound as if these moves were easily available to everyone.

They usually have ridiculous cooldowns. Capitalize on that and stop whining.

The downed mechanic itself is lame and broken, god mode finishers are just the icing.

Personally I’ll rather have no downed state in this game at all its just annoying and no fun imo. Still this is better than the other alternate and I’ll rather take unfair finishes over unfair down state abilities that prolong the fight any day.

The only finishers that are broken are stealth and invulnerability finishers. Quickness finishers you can easily react to, and stability stomps u can just focus fire. So ele mesmer thief and engie are the problen

I think downed state can be a lot of fun at times. It adds a whole new dimension

nerva.7940:

The only finishers that are broken are stealth and invulnerability finishers. Quickness finishers you can easily react to, and stability stomps u can just focus fire. So ele mesmer thief and engie are the problen

I think downed state can be a lot of fun at times. It adds a whole new dimension

^plays a class with a quickness finisher.

The only professions that allow you to “easily react” to a quickness finisher would be ele, ranger and guardian. Every other one has a delay.

Quickness if anything is the only “unfair finish” that may surprise a downed thief, mesmer or ele. Stability or invulnerability will still be worthless against those 3 (the first cast that is).

It’s easy to interrupt a quickness finish if u have an inkling of awareness and speed. Your mates should be focusing him in turn. Whats the problem?

Razor.6392:

OP makes it sound as if these moves were easily available to everyone.

They usually have ridiculous cooldowns. Capitalize on that and stop whining.

How about you learn to fully read posts. If you read what we had said about the Ranger, having an almost unlimited amount of quickness stomps is pretty ridiculous. One is a talent, not even a cooldown. Get your facts straight.

Razor.6392:

nerva.7940:

The only finishers that are broken are stealth and invulnerability finishers. Quickness finishers you can easily react to, and stability stomps u can just focus fire. So ele mesmer thief and engie are the problen

I think downed state can be a lot of fun at times. It adds a whole new dimension

^plays a class with a quickness finisher.

The only professions that allow you to “easily react” to a quickness finisher would be ele, ranger and guardian. Every other one has a delay.

Quickness if anything is the only “unfair finish” that may surprise a downed thief, mesmer or ele. Stability or invulnerability will still be worthless against those 3 (the first cast that is).

I sorta agree with this guy. Every class should have an AoE/cone interrupt on down to save themselves.

And to clarify a little more. I’m not actually complaining that any skill/combo is “overpowered” or needs “nerfing” so preferably, let’s get away from that discussion.

My issue is I feel these skills & combos for guaranteed or fast finishes make PvP much less competitive than it could be. I think it removes a lot of team work ( i.e. reviving team mates, timing knockbacks to save team mates etc).

MarcusKilgannon.5048:

My issue is I feel these skills & combos for guaranteed or fast finishes make PvP much less competitive than it could be. I think it removes a lot of team work ( i.e. reviving team mates, timing knockbacks to save team mates etc).

Because never ending battles where people constantly save each other are so fun right?

The thing about these safe finishers, is that they allow you to make a choice. Your common sense tells you when it’s worth it to blow your really high cooldown utility spell so that problematic target goes down without having their mes / guardian playing ping pong (all while taking free hits) with you while you try to channel the stomp.

Edit: of course you can just DPS someone down instead of doing the channel, but that takes longer, and a single revive regeneration can outdamage up to 3 people.

Downed system is already pretty silly, let’s not make it worse.

Like I said, if you want to witness epic teamwork then keep your attention on the battle before people goes into downed mode. Usually it’s more interesting while they’re on their feet.

As I said the only finishers that are broken are the ones you cant do anything about. So ele mist, mesmer distortion, engie elixir, thief invis. Things you cant do anything about dont belong in competitive pvp

i agree. stability stompers can still take a lot of dmg and quick stompers can be interrupted.

you can’t do anything if you can’t see someone stomping, or can’t hit the person stomping.

@nerva
broken is what i say is broken and what i say is broken is what my class /build lacks at the momet
The whole point of not being able to do anything about would be if you were fighting in the downed state from the very beggining.Since thats not the case then balance can be found by taking account the first part of the fight (where you werenet down and the enemy didnt use his invuln to save himself from your burst) or the next part of the team fight were the user has no stunbreaker/ invuln to save him from the burst of your teammates.
Do you get my point?(You dont have to agree just understand you are wrong with your logic :P)

nerva.7940:

thief invis

your bias is showing.

Razor.6392:

nerva.7940:

thief invis

your bias is showing.

Your troll is showing. Perhaps you can try using reason to contribute to the discussion and explain why mist distortion and stealth stomps are less powerful than quickness stomps.

@kostbabis
Not sure what youre saying. In a team fight, someone always has an invuln or stealth. If a thief downed you in a teamfight his defensive cds will always be up. Distortion is always available. Mist form and elixir may not be available but it depends on how the fight was going.

vespers.1759:

i agree. stability stompers can still take a lot of dmg and quick stompers can be interrupted.

you can’t do anything if you can’t see someone stomping, or can’t hit the person stomping.

Invisible thieves can be knocked back.
Mist stomp and other invuln stomps are fair game for 2 reasons:
1.) You are wasting a long-CD skill in order to insure a stomp.
2.) It keeps the enemy team on their toes. If you know a mist stomp is coming, you can counter it by double resing the downed player, by haste resing them, or by knocking the elementalist away prior to the target going down.

The mechanic is fine and allows for equally viable counter play.

I wouldnt really consider them unfair, its class based after all every class is good in its own way.

TBH I hate finishing necros because they just going to fear you. And that takes away invulnerable finishers. You do different things on different professions.. The necromancer has the best down state finisher block that I would like.

Another thing, whenever I do hotjoin and fighting 2v2 and warrior health is really low in down state, I hate it when people use finishers on them if not right away because they just going to get back up before the finisher ends… A lot of hotjoin peeps just dont know this.

As an experienced player myself I think the issue with downed states in teamfights is the rally mechanic. Whenever a player from each team goes into downed state in a teamfight, the winning team is always that which manages to stomp/kill the downed enemy faster than the other, so that it becomes an unfair 4v5 due to the rally mechanic.

I think the rally mechanic doesn’t make sense, cause it makes the meta totally depend on how overpowered the downed state of a particular class is or how strong of an ability you are using to stomp a guy in downed state. As it is, a teamfight turns from a 5v5 to a 4v5 due to the rally mechanic. If rallying was removed, it would turn a team fight from a 5v5 to a 4v4(+1 downed player) once a player from a team is is stomped, rather than turning into a 4v5. This would give each team more strategies to adopt and accustom to.

Forexample, the team with a stomped player can decide to focus the enemy downed player (which doesn’t rally) and make the game even more balanced and fair. On the other hand, the team with a downed player will have to focus on rezzing the downed person because he wouldn’t have rallied after they manage a stomp. This would reduce the QQ about burst in teamfights and will also change the strategy on which targets to focus first in a team fight due to OP downed states or abilities.

nerva.7940:

Razor.6392:

nerva.7940:

thief invis

your bias is showing.

Your troll is showing. Perhaps you can try using reason to contribute to the discussion and explain why mist distortion and stealth stomps are less powerful than quickness stomps.

@kostbabis
Not sure what youre saying. In a team fight, someone always has an invuln or stealth. If a thief downed you in a teamfight his defensive cds will always be up. Distortion is always available. Mist form and elixir may not be available but it depends on how the fight was going.

Because stealth stomps CAN be interrupted lol. Perhaps not by the downed guy, but by his teammates.

Can your teammates interrupt, or even damage / kill an invulnerable stomp? No, then why do you put them in the same league? Obviously because you hate thieves.

It never fails, in every one of these threads there is someone claiming thief stealth stomps are OP. Thieves really have almost no access to stability, and all stealth does is prevent single target skills from hitting you. In a team fight, all it requires is that someone on the other team use one of their knockbacks / interrupts / fears / or just DPS the guy on the ground with cleave / melee. Also, rangers can daze thieves even when stealthed when they are down, even in a 1v1. I don’t know how stealth can even be considered in the same league as an invuln / stability / quickness stomp.

If it is just a 1v1 scenario with no chance of team help, there isn’t too much that’s going to help anyways, as every class has some way of securing a stomp.

Akira.3798:

As an experienced player myself I think the issue with downed states in teamfights is the rally mechanic. Whenever a player from each team goes into downed state in a teamfight, the winning team is always that which manages to stomp/kill the downed enemy faster than the other, so that it becomes an unfair 4v5 due to the rally mechanic.

I think the rally mechanic doesn’t make sense, cause it makes the meta totally depend on how overpowered the downed state of a particular class is or how strong of an ability you are using to stomp a guy in downed state. As it is, a teamfight turns from a 5v5 to a 4v5 due to the rally mechanic. If rallying was removed, it would turn a team fight from a 5v5 to a 4v4(+1 downed player) once a player from a team is is stomped, rather than turning into a 4v5. This would give each team more strategies to adopt and accustom to.

Forexample, the team with a stomped player can decide to focus the enemy downed player (which doesn’t rally) and make the game even more balanced and fair. On the other hand, the team with a downed player will have to focus on rezzing the downed person because he wouldn’t have rallied after they manage a stomp. This would reduce the QQ about burst in teamfights and will also change the strategy on which targets to focus first in a team fight due to OP downed states or abilities.

I agree with this. It is fairly uneven. I like the rally idea and the system works…mostly. But I really don’t support rallying when you have say a 5vs5 fight, one team has 3 downed players the other has one and just because you can finish off the other team’s single player, your entire 3 get to rally?

Not exactly fair. I would be happy if one finish would rally one team mate (first one down) rather than the entire group downed.

vespers.1759:

i agree. stability stompers can still take a lot of dmg and quick stompers can be interrupted.

you can’t do anything if you can’t see someone stomping, or can’t hit the person stomping.

Exactly, at least stability/quickness has a counter. I don’t like the finishers that you or team mates have nothing they can do to stop you.

inb4 OP also claims that setting up a blinding aoe on top of a downed player is also broken.

Razor.6392:

inb4 OP also claims that setting up a blinding aoe on top of a downed player is also broken.

I have no idea what your going for here. inb4?

stomping and reviving is part of the Team mechanics, it emphasizes teamwork. Build your strategy around it, and for crying out loud revive your teammates. 95% of players never try to do this, they just tunnel vision. so yes it adds a dynamic that separates good teams from scrubs and forces you to play as a team.

Personally I’ve had some freaking amazing back n forths where we would get downed, revived, down them, they get revived and so forth. It was quite enjoyable and intense.

In a game where theives can down people in 2 seconds, the downed mechanic is great because that alone almost counters theives. Stealth finishers only work on some classes and they’re still vulnerable to interrupt or aoe. It also helps keep guardians viable in Spvp as great finishers/healers.

and if you’re in a 5v5 and you have 3 downed and somehow still manage to land a finisher against 1 of those 5 people, your team ABSOLUTELY deserves the rally. not broken at all.

The real problem are just rangers quickness stomps. The cd is too short, or at least it should require more investment to get than the first 5 points in a trait line. Otherwise it’s fine.

Thief, Mesmer and Ele can all break these stomps with their downed 2 skill.

Stealth finish can be countered by damaging the area.

All the invulnerable stomps are otherwise useful and on long-ish cooldown.

Ranger quickness swap is really the most OP one. Almost all rangers get this 5 point minor trait, that gives DPS boost when needed AND quick stomp on a short cooldown. As if switching pets was hard. Although if they don’t have stability, you can still use your 2 skill if you are quick about it.

No other class has such a good trait as a 5 point minor.

Oareo.1604:

Thief, Mesmer and Ele can all break these stomps with their downed 2 skill.

Stealth finish can be countered by damaging the area.

All the invulnerable stomps are otherwise useful and on long-ish cooldown.

Ranger quickness swap is really the most OP one. Almost all rangers get this 5 point minor trait, that gives DPS boost when needed AND quick stomp on a short cooldown. As if switching pets was hard. Although if they don’t have stability, you can still use your 2 skill if you are quick about it.

No other class has such a good trait as a 5 point minor.

ya that Ranger talent seems flawed. It’s not a slot skill or cooldown (really) so it’s a little odd being there. I’d be fine with it if maybe it was tweaked to effect their skill usage but not interactions (so revives, finishes etc).

That talent point seemed a little broke when I’m on my ranger. They could even make it a trait higher into beast mastery to balance it. Demand a stronger trait line into beast, but 5 points is a little low.