Guild Wars 2

If you’re going to nerf the boon removal from 2 —> 1, please lower the init cost from 2 -->1. If you would recall, it was 1 init to start with but it was increase to 2 because it was “too good.” Revert it back to 1 init please. Thanks.

No.

Lolno.

How to balance thief S/D

1) nerf #3 chain
2) improve dagger oh
3) nerf the insane amount of dodge/evade

Increase damage on auto attack to compensate.

If it was boon removal, then I would agree with you. But it’s boon stealing, so no.

So instead of making other weapon sets worth a kitten , they’re just going to bring the really good set thieves have and put it “back in line” with other less desirable sets, kinda like D/D and P/P – P/D.

A few more patches like this and thief will be undesirable in tpvp. Not that I play tpvp anyway … always the same boring crap over and over and over again, no variety, because balance is just … eh … sub-par.

I certainly won’t use S/D anymore if it remains the same init cost with only 1 boon stolen, that’s the whole reason it’s even worth using, the utility of disabling a boon heavy class.

How about just adding more weapon sets, or buffing the sets that truly suck? D/D could use two tweaks that would make it killer for condition setup. Cut the duration of Death Blossom in half and add 2x stacks of bleed for each hit, (6x for one DB if all three hits land) then it only takes two DB’s to achieve the amount of damage burning does, which some classes PASSIVELY get (unavoidably, no kittening less) on crit!!

And how about adding one stack of torment to dagger offhand, #4. It wouldn’t be gamebreaking by any means, especially considering that skill isn’t even worth using anymore. <—- And just by saying that really should say a lot about Arenanet’s ability, or lack there of, to balance this game out (especially in a timely manner).

And Pistol mainhand … still absolute trash. I wonder if their way of making it seem worth half a cent would be to just continually nerf every other set until it’s comparable to everything else, instead of just bringing it in line with the other mainhand weapons. ‘Cause as it is, it’s absolutely useless. Who needs a 3 second duration of 10 stacks of vulnerability when engineers can spam 1 and stack vuln to the roof? Seriously?

I’d much rather them play “Whack a mole” with balance, with all classes, all the time, than have this trickling kitten ant method of “balancing” the game with absolutely atrocious and absurd changes that happen MONTHS between at a time, with their lame excuses to be lax about it because PAX and ESPORTS.

LOL

This game’s already dead. What did PAX have again, 5k viewers? GG WP Arenanubs.

Oi, they are just making it steal 1 boon instead of 2, they are not changing damages, ini or the dodge frame. It’s will still be a powerful set.
Can this forum only whine about everything? stop crying already

I wouldn’t honestly care if it felt like thieves had more than two weapon sets that were truly useful in spvp, and seeing one of the sets get nerf after nerf really is disheartening when we all would like to see the viability of other sets get raised.

Not just receive more nerfs. Nerfing something to make other weapon sets seem appealing is really a garbage way to go about doing things.

I’m quite positive if you were in the same situation, let alone actually understood instead of having an ill-thought out / mindless response that takes 0 brain power, you would be singing a different tune. ^^

Jesiah.2457:

I wouldn’t honestly care if it felt like thieves had more than two weapon sets that were truly useful in spvp, and seeing one of the sets get nerf after nerf really is disheartening when we all would like to see the viability of other sets get raised.

Not just receive more nerfs. Nerfing something to make other weapon sets seem appealing is really a garbage way to go about doing things.

I’m quite positive if you were in the same situation, let alone actually understood instead of having an ill-thought out / mindless response that takes 0 brain power, you would be singing a different tune. ^^

I’m quite sure if you had any kind of perspective beyond that of a thief player, you would know that this won’t change kitten. S/D thieves have amazing burst, great mobility, great damage avoidance, and the ability to disengage countless times. This is all a glass cannon needs to carry out its work. ON TOP OF THAT it steals boons. Now they reduce the effectiveness of that part. Nothing more. You still dodge around like a kittened monkey dealing 3k crits without having to deal with the same risk other glass cannons have to suffer.

“You would know that this won’t change kitten.”

Maybe that’s the whole godkitten problem? Perhaps if you weren’t just anti-thief because you have lrn2play issues and can’t counter stealth like so many other players I’ve seen that actually can, you’d be much less biased and could actually see that I, as well as others, hate the fact that there aren’t many options for thieves to choose outside of S/D. Perhaps if we had more viable options that were on par with S/D being a useful utility, then I wouldn’t even be complaining.

But considering the viable / good options … the only thoroughly good option thieves really have are being nerfed again, while at the same time other classes are being buffed again, as well as the fact our other, lack-luster and completely trashy weapon sets, (Pistol Mainhand????) are STILL garbage just like they have been since day one … yeah, I think we are starting to have room to complain here.

And really, S/D is amazing burst? LOL … maybe great damage avoidance due to it’s “mobility” which I won’t argue, is pretty stupid and incredibly annoying to fight against (like most of this game’s gimmicky trash), but to say that S/D is amazing burst is a friggin’ joke. It has good stable damage, but not bursty, definitely not amazing burst.

Even without S/D thieves can dodge around ridiculously stupid-like, but so do spirit rangers and they’re easily more tanky in that regard & have insanely strong team support, kitten near a free rez, and good damage on top of that. Yet here you are, one of the many crying babies on the forum just out there to get the class you don’t know how to win against nerfed, hoping to see it get to the bottom rung of the ladder.

Which don’t worry. Judging by Arenanet’s capabilities, your wish will probably come true. You won’t actually have to lrn2play, nerfs will take care of it for you.

Gunlaugr.2716:

You still dodge around like a kittened monkey dealing 3k crits without having to deal with the same risk other glass cannons have to suffer.

^ Then QQ to Arenanet about Infilatrator Strike, not Larcenous Strike. Inf Strike is the main culprit in thieves being able to do these horrible godawful overpowered 3k crits without “all the risk involved”! (Lawl, complaining about a 3k crit … that makes me teehee XD)

You want to see thieves have a higher risk for the reward? Push for changes to Infiltrator Strike and then you would notice a difference. Otherwise nerfing Larcenous Strike by 1 boon strip is going to do nothing but help boon spamming classes to be “good” through boons, rather than having their core mechanics fixed.

Some people just can’t grasp a bigger picture other than “Omg grr I hate this class, pro-nerf all the way!!” because they simply can’t hack it in PvP. :/ Why I even bother responding to thoughtless posts? I’m not even sure … :/

MarkPhilips.5169:

How to balance thief S/D

1) nerf #3 chain
2) improve dagger oh
3) nerf the insane amount of dodge/evade

Read – Thieves should just stand still and die, nobody likes having to try, pay attention, or time their skills – if my fire and forget abilities can’t beat it, it’s broken.

It has been said numerous times by top players that S/D thieves need a nerf to evasion, not boon steal. Quite the opposite actually, boon hate is good and needed.

I really don’t know what was ANet thinking with this one, it’s a good thing these changes aren’t final and they are still taking feedback.

So if anyone from ANet is reading this, please nerf S/D thief evasion but leave the boon removal as it is.

I think the change is good as it will improve thieves skill cap.
With all the L2P I see in their forum, I am pretty sure they have all the necessary skill to succeed in this new ambitious challenge.
Or maybe it will be time for them to start seeing what is L2P.

But I agree with hrkljus: evade need also to be toned down (increase initiative cost would be a solution) to avoid spammy skill. This will also enhance the skill cap and drive thieves step by step to use a second button more often.

Kicast.1459:

I think the change is good as it will improve thieves skill cap.
With all the L2P I see in their forum, I am pretty sure they have all the necessary skill to succeed in this new ambitious challenge.
Or maybe it will be time for them to start seeing what is L2P.

What’s the point of sticking with thief if warrior and necro is better? It’s not going to improve anyone’s skillcap, they’re just going to move to the next FotM. If they haven’t already that is.

Jesiah.2457:

“You would know that this won’t change kitten.”

Maybe that’s the whole godkitten problem? Perhaps if kitten baderp kitten …

Where did I complain about stealth? I enjoy playing against d/p thieves. It’s a great challenge, and you have a fair shot at winning if you catch them in the brief moment they are visible, or if you can predict where they are while stealthed/when they are going to backstab. I have no issues with stealth. I certainly do hope Arenanet manages to increase thief build variety, just as we see with warriors, where longbow/hammer and various viable condition builds are played with in soloQ at least. I don’t have any problem with warriors being challenging either.

The only reason I posted was because you made a big deal out of this nerf in your first post, which is completely uncalled for. Boon-dependant classes will still struggle to keep boons up due to the abundance of necros corrupting boons. This change to S/d thieves is of minor importance.

Excalibur.9748:

Kicast.1459:

I think the change is good as it will improve thieves skill cap.
With all the L2P I see in their forum, I am pretty sure they have all the necessary skill to succeed in this new ambitious challenge.
Or maybe it will be time for them to start seeing what is L2P.

What’s the point of sticking with thief if warrior and necro is better? It’s not going to improve anyone’s skillcap, they’re just going to move to the next FotM. If they haven’t already that is.

Well currently, thieves are recognized as a real value in tPvP and are considered in a good spot: High burst, high dps, high survivability thanks to spammy evades and stealth, high mobility and even good support with boon stripping.
Changes coming were unavoidable to try to come back to a kind of balance. I think also that further steps are required and coming. Good new is that devs proceed carrefully step by step. This will let thieves try other powerfull builds and have time to adapt to new diversity.

We have been facing same situation on mesmer side. This is a long (very long) process that will sometime hurt but has to be taken as a challenge. What a satisfaction to be able sometime to beat a stronger profession and not always being at the favorite position.
I am not really affraid for thieves as I am sure they love their profession for its gameplay and not its current opness. In the end it will be a perfect opportunity for them to show that thieves required skill & strategy.

Guts just explained a few things on stream:

Feline Grace
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Feline_Grace
Dodging returns some of the endurance used.
User recovers 15% endurance after dodging, effectively lowering the cost dodging to 35% endurance.

This makes the thief effectively be able to dodge 3 times with a full endurance.

Withdraw
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Withdraw

Heal with 3/4 sec evade, 15 second cooldown, aaand…

Vigorous Recovery
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vigorous_Recovery
Gain vigor when using a healing skill.
Vigor granted lasts 8 seconds.

…it grants 8 seconds of Vigor.
Which is even more powerful on an S/D thief, since full endurance = 3 dodges as opposed to 2.

Signet of Agility
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Agility

And if you run out of dodges, you use signet of agility, refill all your endurance and suddenly you have 3 more dodges.

I know ANet wants the thief to be the best dodging class thematically, but it can’t have both dodges, damage, and boon steal in one spec.

If these things get somehow nerfed S/D thief should be fine.
Perhaps a rework for Feline Grace (the minor trait) would fix most of the problems.

Kicast.1459:

Well currently, thieves are recognized as a real value in tPvP and are considered in a good spot: High burst, high dps, high survivability thanks to spammy evades and stealth, high mobility and even good support with boon stripping.
.

You’re mixing and matching the strengths from 2 different specs and presenting them as if they were contained all in 1 spec.

S/D has no burst, solid sustained DPS (if you’re running Zerkers) and high survivability through evades. S/D has short-range high mobility and boon stripping.
D/P has high burst, low sustained, and mediocre surviability through stealth (If you can’t guess where I thief in TPvP might be headed when in stealth, I don’t know what to tell you)

evilapprentice.6379:

Kicast.1459:

Well currently, thieves are recognized as a real value in tPvP and are considered in a good spot: High burst, high dps, high survivability thanks to spammy evades and stealth, high mobility and even good support with boon stripping.
.

You’re mixing and matching the strengths from 2 different specs and presenting them as if they were contained all in 1 spec.

S/D has no burst, solid sustained DPS (if you’re running Zerkers) and high survivability through evades. S/D has short-range high mobility and boon stripping.
D/P has high burst, low sustained, and mediocre surviability through stealth (If you can’t guess where I thief in TPvP might be headed when in stealth, I don’t know what to tell you)

Yeah, the S/D thief doesn’t burst for squadoosh.

The “Short-Range” mobility is debatable, but only because it is over-simplified. S/D thief has UNPARALLELED in combat mobility (due mostly to Sword #2) and very solid mobility that only other thieves can really exceed.

Stealing Boons > Stripping Boons. Fine distinction, but worth pointing out. There is not enough boon stripping/stealing/converting available in the game and even only stealing 1 at a time thief is still the best option of all professions for sustained boon removal.

Really Sword #2 and/or S/D #3 do need a bit of a shave. Specifically the combo of instant teleport + evade spamming is out of hand. With that said, Thief isn’t the only offender with regards to this kind of design flaw but that is off-topic for this thread I suppose. I just really hope that they put some effort into compensating other thief sets with buffs to give thief a bit of variety. MH Pistol has been God awful forever, and OH Dagger has been subpar for quite some time too; those are 2 good opportunities to give thieves a new toy to play with.

i always felt the op thing about thief sword was the (2) skill

i`m doing it wrong i think – perma teleport+condi cleanse + immob + dmg YOLO!

hrkljus.1243:

Guts just explained a few things on stream:

Feline Grace
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Feline_Grace
Dodging returns some of the endurance used.
User recovers 15% endurance after dodging, effectively lowering the cost dodging to 35% endurance.

This makes the thief effectively be able to dodge 3 times with a full endurance.

Withdraw
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Withdraw

Heal with 3/4 sec evade, 15 second cooldown, aaand…

Vigorous Recovery
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vigorous_Recovery
Gain vigor when using a healing skill.
Vigor granted lasts 8 seconds.

…it grants 8 seconds of Vigor.
Which is even more powerful on an S/D thief, since full endurance = 3 dodges as opposed to 2.

Signet of Agility
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Agility

And if you run out of dodges, you use signet of agility, refill all your endurance and suddenly you have 3 more dodges.

I know ANet wants the thief to be the best dodging class thematically, but it can’t have both dodges, damage, and boon steal in one spec.

If these things get somehow nerfed S/D thief should be fine.
Perhaps a rework for Feline Grace (the minor trait) would fix most of the problems.

I find the biggest contributor to perma-dodge is actually Sigil of Energy, especially for Thieves that use S/D on both sets.

Without the extra 1.5 dodges every 9 seconds, the dodging isn’t nearly as rampant.

Not sure how this could be fixed without affecting other classes and builds that use them though…

hrkljus.1243:

I know ANet wants the thief to be the best dodging class thematically, but it can’t have both dodges, damage, and boon steal in one spec.

Then we should be fine then – S/D doesn’t have strong damage (I assume by ‘damage’ you meant ‘strong damage’, because you can’t design a weaponset that does no damage at all) . With the exceptions of crippling strike and larcenous strike, every skill in S/D hits for low DPS in comparison to a thief’s other possible weaponsets using the same DPS stat values.

Crippling Strike comes at the end of a slow AA chain, and is highly telegraphed – Dodging/interrupting/retaliating (as in hitting the thief, not using the boon retaliate) while he’s attempting to land Crippling Strike will either severely neuter his damage or make him pay for landing CS by hitting him hard while he can’t dodge.

Larcenous strike can only follow a Flanking strike, is again highly telegraphed, and can be countered in much the same way as Crippling strike (except that it can’t be blocked.)