Very tired of double guardian/mesmer teams.....
When I see a guardian or Mesmer I cringe at the ensuing stalemate or defeat, while not being able to budge them from a point. Everyday I see more and more people switching to these classes, more games filled with mostly 3 classes… I’ve switched as well… feels dirty but less grief.
Or instead of sending 3 people to kill the guardian that isn’t a threat, send one person. Either they spend long enough to burn through his CDs and kill him, or the enemy reinforces the guardian in which case it should be an easy cap at the other two points. On a condition build retaliation doesn’t do enough damage to kill me, and I can essentially 1v1 the Guardian until he dies or is reinforced.
Just some food for thought.
They run it because they know almost everyone is running a PUG tournament build with no supportive skills, stuns, coordination, or focus to any one target, and guardians and mesmers that aren’t focused and build for survival will outlast you all until you get wise to it.
And be careful who you call below average, there are some really good Mesmers out there who will make you look silly because while I don’t think they are OP, they have a LOT of tools to affect the fight, and if you are the type to blast through all your offensive CDs they will laugh at you. Know this and realize you won’t burn a good mesmer or guardian down fast 1v1.
Jumzi (Ranger), Tarnished Coast
i dont think your losing because of their comp :P
i dont think your losing because of their comp :P
I’m waiting for your video to show a champion magus how to play ele…because of course you’re talking our of experience and not out of your ownkitten.am I right?!
Mesmers will always be bad if they don’t have their phantasms. Just remember that.
CD
There is no way to balance this. Im actually tired of 2thief and 3 guardians setup. But.. even after some nerf there will be different setups that will be “on top” so.. at this point.. live with it and adapt. If you dont, then after balance patch notes you will have probably 1-2 week before the new meta will settle ant then you will be tiered of something else..
Its neverending circle
Mesmers will always be bad if they don’t have their phantasms. Just remember that.
Sadly they spawn them faster then you can say mesmer :P
Timeraider- 80 Norn Elementalist – 80 Norn Engineer
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Mesmers are not that hard to kill. You just dont know how.. and the best you can do actually is play one.. then you will have clear overview what skills are illusions and where your real oponent is.
Double guardian teams are easy to deal with. Condition damage tears them apart, even if they run smite condition with contemplation of purity..any decently built bleed setup can stack them 10x faster than they can cleanse them.
Mesmers are strong in 1v1, in a team fight situation they die just as easily as the other casters if you pay attention to which is the real one.
If you think mesmers shatters are broken, you need to retake a look at the balancing in this game. Everything is broken so it can be qualified as balanced when you two hit someone. It’s the way it is intended to play, I actually heard players saying “let’s be honest balanced isn’t any fun”.
It’s this type of game, it’s kinda like fps for example. If a gun one shots someone it’s not op when everyone is one shotting everyone (like a sniper). However if you want to pull out a pistol for a 5 shot kill, but faster and more accurate shots and try to dodge his sniper that is possible.
The best mmorpg example I can give for how this was before they tried balancing it was the way rift was designed, everything two or three hitting eachother, except a few classes that were just kinda bad, plus that game had a gear based system.
I must’ve missed the sign that said it was a fire sale.
(edited by R E F L H E X.8413)
Rift also coincidentally used the same formats, the formats allow this type of game to be possible where you don’t really need balance or combative teamplay and can have things dieing left and right with a respawn in ten seconds or so.
Now gvg on the otherhand would be bad right now, it would require something like a 25% overall damage reduction buff (that isn’t visible) for that format to work properly, same goes for arenas.
I have a video where I talk about gvg being added into the game, and what should be done etc.
I must’ve missed the sign that said it was a fire sale.
I just wish Anet would take a look at Phantasm recharge and retalation stacking .
For the first the CD on illusions is just ridicolously short, we go from tactical choice by the mesmer to mindless spamming, if by destroying an illusion you actively reduce the effectivness of a mesmer, then the CD on them shouldn’t be 8s or less, right now a mesmer can rotate between 3 of them every 8s and it takes you at least 4s to destroy one, meaning no matter what they’ll always have an illusion up
For the second, it’s just too hard to keep conditions on both guardians, they can cleanse conditions faster then you guys think and they can cleanse conditions with alternation..a nightmare
mesmers are simple once you understand the class and stop being bad, if the mesmer strafes,backpedals,dodge rolls,jumps, uses any ability other than auto attack..then thats the real 1…just train him and he will die.
“they can summon 2 phantasms every 8s -_- on top of 3-4 shatter clones and going stealth” – that just shows how little you understand the class.
no they cant summon 2 phantasms every 8 seconds aswell as 3-4 clones, infact they can’t summon 2 phantasms every 8 seconds by itself(even fully traited), and they can’t summon 4 clones at once by itself let alone both together.
+1 for dueling in the mists.
+1 for 3v3 or 2v2 deathmatch
+1 for 3v3 or 2v2 deathmatch
If you think mesmers shatters are broken, you need to retake a look at the balancing in this game. Everything is broken so it can be qualified as balanced when you two hit someone. It’s the way it is intended to play, I actually heard players saying “let’s be honest balanced isn’t any fun”.
It’s this type of game, it’s kinda like fps for example. If a gun one shots someone it’s not op when everyone is one shotting everyone (like a sniper). However if you want to pull out a pistol for a 5 shot kill, but faster and more accurate shots and try to dodge his sniper that is possible.
The best mmorpg example I can give for how this was before they tried balancing it was the way rift was designed, everything two or three hitting eachother, except a few classes that were just kinda bad, plus that game had a gear based system.
Yeah and then loads of people left when they did balance the game…it’s the same reason why many people are vocal against any balance change, the majority of people need hidden advantages in order to win anything
mesmers are simple once you understand the class and stop being bad, if the mesmer strafes,backpedals,dodge rolls,jumps, uses any ability other than auto attack..then thats the real 1…just train him and he will die.
“they can summon 2 phantasms every 8s -_- on top of 3-4 shatter clones and going stealth” – that just shows how little you understand the class.
no they cant summon 2 phantasms every 8 seconds aswell as 3-4 clones, infact they can’t summon 2 phantasms every 8 seconds by itself(even fully traited), and they can’t summon 4 clones at once by itself let alone both together.
They can rotate between illusionist duellist/bersker/rogue at the death of each one and have still 3-4 clones for shatter -_-.
Wtf do you dodge if the shatter clones daze you everytime? Those shattering clones come from all directions and you get crippled/dazed in the meantime by the real mesmer…but let’s stop here, good luck to you trying to teach a champion magus/wolf rank how to play ele….auto-attack spamm on dagger/dagger ele?..lol yeah sure..NEXT!
They can rotate between illusionist duellist/bersker/rogue at the death of each one and have still 3-4 clones for shatter -_-.
Wtf do you dodge if the shatter clones daze you everytime? Those shattering clones come from all directions and you get crippled/dazed in the meantime by the real mesmer…but let’s stop here, good luck to you trying to teach a champion magus/wolf rank how to play ele….auto-attack spamm on dagger/dagger ele?..lol yeah sure..NEXT!
…everything you said is wrong, mesmer can’t have 3 different dps phantasms up at once, also phantasm rogue is a downed state ability lol…also mesmer can’t shatter 4 clones(they can only have 3 clones/phantasm up at once). Phantasm mesmers will not use shatter, and shatter mesmers will not spam phantasm’s.
also shatter clones don’t daze you everytime, one of the shatter abilities is daze and its only 1 second and doesn’t stack regardless of how many you shatter and does NO damage(is the weakest of all the shatters).
its obvious you have no idea how mesmers work, so its no wonder you have no idea how to fight them.
+1 for dueling in the mists.
+1 for 3v3 or 2v2 deathmatch
+1 for 3v3 or 2v2 deathmatch
illusions AI was greatly improved since bwes’ , now they are not puppets but hounds!.
if you don’t have aoes (a lot or still useless against a signet of illusion’s mesmer), it is very difficult to beat a decent mesmer.
probably anet should play a bit with stats of mesmer to find a better balancing.
don’t know. i think they know what they do.
As a mesmer, I’ll put in my two cents, and clear up some mechanics. Please correct any errors, but only if you know for sure.
Firstly, mesmers can only have 3 illusions up at one time. When they shatter, they have to walk up to you and explode. Daze doesn’t seem to work as optimally as it should, as sometimes I’ve not even seen the debuff icon come up, but that’s a different issue. The point is, you can see the daze+cripple coming. Mesmers can only cripple when an illusion is killed/shattered (if traited), or with the wall. In other words, the ‘real’ mesmer can NOT unavoidably cripple you.
All illusions do NOT do damage; only phantasms (and staff clones, because they add conditions) deal damage, and these have a 10+ second cooldowns (I can’t remember duelist or swordsman cooldown, but the rest are 10+, warden going to 15-20!). Phantasms look and behave completely different from the real mesmer; the mesmer has no animation resembling any of these phantasms’ animations. these are what you can destroy.
A mesmer cannot daze and damage with shatter at the same time. The daze has no damage, and has a moderate cooldown (15-20). Shatters stack confusion on trait only; single stack per illusion. Note that because of cooldown, every shatter cannot daze you. They can, however, cripple and/or confuse if traited.
You cannot rotate 3 different phantasms. Each weapon set has only 1 phantasm. Offhands and 2 handers produce phantasms. Every phantasm has an AA cooldown of about 4-5 seconds traited, except warden which seems to be attacking far more often than intended, but is PBAOE does not move while doing so.
Also, clones will stand stock-still, and will attempt to attack from maximum range.
Moa morph is very powerful. HOWEVER, there is no slow attached. You can run and LOS as a bird (-.-); mesmers have a stun on signet, stun on OH pistol, crippling wall on OH wall, and crippling-on-shatter illusions that run at base movespeed (you can run away forever). As you can imagine, a mesmer can’t have all of these at the same time, so they have some trouble catching people, so you can run away. Also, the mesmer e cannot move while casting moa, and it has a distinct animation which clones will never do. It can also be roll-dodged. The cast time is 2 seconds, interruptable to put into FULL CD (I have never seen it go into reduced cd), that being 3 minutes.
The mesmer is completely based on mind-games; don’t get suckered into the mesmer’s pace. You need to get a feel for the various tricks a mesmer will try to play with you. I am not saying you will never lose to a mesmer, and that confusing illusion cheese vs 2 mesmers is not incredibly annoying, but I hope that clearing up some mechanics will make it easier to develop counter-play. After a while, when everykitten starts playing mesmer and these bad players give good players ideas as to how they can work around mesmer tricks (like warrior charge as soon as a staff mesmer phase retreats; the clone dies instantly, and the real mesmer will be right there), they will be able to use that against the good mesmer players as well.
@madfad: assuming the goal of tourney is to hold caps, you can see that the fight area is smaller than you declare, and you can understand how easier is to shatter in the face of opponents. killing illusion force opponent to take conditions(i know there are a lot of build around the internet, but hoping someone is building his mesmer using his brain, he will put some conditions on his killed illusions?), if you use sword OH and u parry an hit, you spawn another phantasm. everyone knows phantasm are the true damage output of mesmer. so you can understand how much damage you can do leaving phantasm “alive”.
i was a mesmer player. i contributed to make the mesmer the class it is now, and i can say it is a bit too much compared to 3 months ago.
Shukran: I really didn’t want to make any comment as to whether the class was OP or UP, as I mentioned in my final paragraph. I only want to discuss the mechanics and clear them up, as many people are severely misinformed and making baseless statements. I understand that in small spaces, it is easier to take all shatters to the face if you are stunned or MOA’ed (as you can’t roll), but isn’t that more to the credit of the mesmer player, rather than the class? It might be elementary, but he still needed to summon illusions, cc, shatter, then summon phantasms/weapon swap so that they can do damage while shatter is on CD. I also mentioned that ‘phantasms’ are what need to be killed; you can afford to take an extra condition to take out an important source of dps for the mesmer.
I am in no way, shape, or form, saying that mesmers suck, or can be countered extremely easily. In fact, I feel they do take a lot more work and thinking to kill than other professions, which in other people’s eyes may be the definition of ‘OP’.
To be honest I am not sure why everyone is complaining about the Mesmer here… they are the least played class and actually take a modicum of skill. Guardians are the real OP class, they take almost no thought and can hold points forever/rez teammates too easily. Look at most of the threads about silly team comps, they all rely on multiple Guards.
Domination maps are ALWAYS going to be too good for classes that want to bunker down and just tank. ANet needs multiple map types if we ever want to see balanced teams.
displacedTitan i assume you didn’t play so many tourney these days don’t you?
MadFad: i agree mesmers are not op, just their mechanic in the right hands is more painful than a thief (sbrofl at who think HS is strong).
yesterday i was lucky enough to be againsta a team of 3 guardians 2 mesmers hahahaha. noone died that day…of their team (well i was in pug but w.e).
i have never met that combo jet doing 2/3 tourments almost every day with my guild. guess we are lucky.
Woudn’t just 1 good aoe class kitten up all the mesmars by killing their illusions?
People seem to forget that phantasms are actually the Mesmer’s “DoTs/Hexes”, but manifested in the real world and killable, they’re supposed to do damage – it is the Mesmer’s damage (in combination with the “Direct Damage” Mesmer’s can also deal).
I want several ultra bursty copies of me when I’m downed.
When I see a guardian or Mesmer I cringe at the ensuing stalemate or defeat, while not being able to budge them from a point. Everyday I see more and more people switching to these classes, more games filled with mostly 3 classes… I’ve switched as well… feels dirty but less grief.
Yep, feel the same (except for the last part, I will not give swap just to be competitive)
Guardians? Condition Necro is your friend.
Mesmer is a bit trickier, I’ll admit. I had to play one quite a bit to start seeing where the weaknesses are and what I can to shut them down quickly.
Mesmers cannot mindlessly spam phantasms…they have 12-15 second cd’s. They do an attack once every 4-5 seconds. Pay attention and dodge it or destroy them if you can. Spotting the real mesmer with phantasms is easy, they look like ghosts and only ever do 1 move.
I run a glass cannon 4 mantra build. We’re not all the same.
Also Time Warp>Moa all day.
Let’s do the Time Warp agaaaain! It’s so good.
Finally someone had the courage to said what needed to be said, thank you Original Poster. I’m tired of fighting 2(3) guardian & 2(3) mesmer teams as well – it’s always the team composition I encounter on the final tournament matches (battle of khylo). These two professions are ridiculously overpowered. When is Arenanet going to nerf them?
AoE and Cleaves deal with Phantasm Mesmers. Shatter Mesmers aren’t much of an issue assuming you have the perception to notice an incoming shatter.
Condi-Dmg with Poison uptime is what deals with a Guardian. If Retaliation is a specific issue, then bring boon removal somewhere in your team composition.
Quit complaining that your glass cannon builds can’t beat everything and think a little. A team with an Ele and/or Engi for AoE alongside an Engi, Thief, Necro, and/or Ranger for condition damage with poison would do very well against these kinds of teams. In general, stop equipping the Berserker’s Amulet and complaining that you die a lot.
Virydia – Hearld
Tirydia – Scrapper
Tirydia – Scrapper
One shatter mesmer is usually not the problem when you add 1 or 2 more its hard to dodge all of them. The sheer utility of mesmers right now is just broken. In Khylo everyone takes mesmer just for the portal “exploit” or “clever use of game mechanics” to instantly repair the treb. They have Moa which by all means needs a nerf, it removes 1 player from the fight instantly, dead or alive. The berserker phantasm requires no los on target to cast and it casts on top of you. My main beef with mesmers though is the treb repair portals.
Guardians are not op, very easy and straightforward classes. To be honest i would say they’re one of the few balanced professions in the game, with of course a few tweaks for the other under powered professions. Full support Elementalists are actually harder to kill, 2 hasted PW thieves with thieves guild have a hard time bringing one down and all you have to do is roll your face on the keyboard.
Rank 35
LvL80 Condi Necromancer
LvL35 Engineer
LvL80 Condi Necromancer
LvL35 Engineer
Yeah nerf mesmers, only like half their skill set is either garbage or bugged crap instead of nearly all of it like everyone else.
The mesmers just chain the clone shatter to perma daze you and fill you up with confusion..and if everything fail they use MoA form and use sword set, right now being this broken you need very specific build to beat a mesmer and there’s no build able to beat a decent mesmer thx to those broken phantasms.
Your argument would hold a lot more weight if you were talking about real skills and not some fantasy world skills you came up with.
Mesmer daze shatter at best has a 30second cooldown. That means he’s 100% spec’d into the illusions tree, that mean’s he’s not running a core phantasm build so his phantasms are a pile of kitten OR he die’s faster than a thief.
To be honest, the longer time goes on the less and less mesmer’s I’m seeing. The whole of tonight after about 30/40 game’s mesmer is the ONLY class I’ve not seen anyone else playing. Every other class has been represented at least 5 times and there were to many warriors to count. Equally in tourney’s I often find that the final 2 rounds don’t have these “overwhelming” numbers of “overpowered” mesmer’s I hear everyone talking about. I mean basically every team has at least one thief and one guardian as well as normally having a warrior as well but In most of the tourney’s I find I’m the only mesmer I meet the whole 3 games.
Also ele’s are complete trash atm, using them as a baseline for working out the power level of other classes is like asking an illiterate mentally handicaped person to work out the relative intelligence levels of a bunch of normal people.
EDIT:
Stop Speaking Out Of Your (Aszs) people , i play a mesmer and i rarely die the whole game blink illusion stealth moa-morph and the health of a 25k , yeah we are overpowered
and we better get balanced before ruining the whole class later on so just admit it
You apparently run a bunker build then wonder why your not dieing…..Most classes have at least one bunker build that doesn’t die. Either that or you don’t play mesmer.
EDIT2:
If you dont, then after balance patch notes you will have probably 1-2 week before the new meta will settle ant then you will be tiered of something else..
Its neverending circle
Actually depending on how close the game is to balanced you get what I’ve heard someone call a player nerf. The best place you can see this is in SC2 but it happens in other games as well. Essentially one build is worked out to be “overpowered” and becomes so common it’s everywhere, players the begin working on ways to specifically counter this build to the point where they become so good at it that the build just stops working. The problem with MMO’s nomally is that
1) players are whiney kittenes who want everything here and now while
2) The balance isn’t actually close enough or tight enough that
3) There isn’t enough variety so
4) The nerf’s/balances changes happen to quickly to allow players to learn to counter something.
(edited by Malakree.5912)
The mesmers just chain the clone shatter to perma daze you and fill you up with confusion..and if everything fail they use MoA form and use sword set, right now being this broken you need very specific build to beat a mesmer and there’s no build able to beat a decent mesmer thx to those broken phantasms.
Your argument would hold a lot more weight if you were talking about real skills and not some fantasy world skills you came up with.
Mesmer daze shatter at best has a 30second cooldown. That means he’s 100% spec’d into the illusions tree, that mean’s he’s not running a core phantasm build so his phantasms are a pile of kitten OR he die’s faster than a thief.
To be honest, the longer time goes on the less and less mesmer’s I’m seeing. The whole of tonight after about 30/40 game’s mesmer is the ONLY class I’ve not seen anyone else playing. Every other class has been represented at least 5 times and there were to many warriors to count. Equally in tourney’s I often find that the final 2 rounds don’t have these “overwhelming” numbers of “overpowered” mesmer’s I hear everyone talking about. I mean basically every team has at least one thief and one guardian as well as normally having a warrior as well but In most of the tourney’s I find I’m the only mesmer I meet the whole 3 games.
Also ele’s are complete trash atm, using them as a baseline for working out the power level of other classes is like asking an illiterate mentally handicaped person to work out the relative intelligence levels of a bunch of normal people.
Eles are trash?..coming from a fotm player with no clue about PvP this is quite hilarious, I’m talking about team composition balance..read the title of the thread before posting non-sense
The problem with MMO’s nomally is that
1) players are whiney kittenes who want everything here and now while
2) The balance isn’t actually close enough or tight enough that
3) There isn’t enough variety so
4) The nerf’s/balances changes happen to quickly to allow players to learn to counter something.
SO much this.
I can understand some quality of life buffs, like bug fixes and adjustments to spefcific build routes that are just not working as they should be. But for the most part, let the Meta play out. I’m already starting to see people trying to hard counter Mesmers, and I’ve had to adjust my builds to compensate.
But I’m seeing a trend here of complainers and quitters who are realizing that dicerolls was the system they really wanted all along. That they’d rather not have to be adaptable and skillful.
I love mesmer because I love it’s concept. What adjustments it gets, it gets. It won’t prevent me playing the class or enjoying it, because I enjoy it’s premise. But a lot of people are speaking out of ignorance of their own classes, let alone ignorance of the classes they are calling nerfs for.
Again, I cannot reccomend this enough to people: If you’re having particular problems against one class, play that class a while to get familiar with it, so you get knowledge of the class when you fight it as your main.
Eles are trash?..coming from a fotm player with no clue about PvP this is quite hilarious, I’m talking about team composition balance..read the title of the thread before posting non-sense
Team composition balance….without thieves in it? Also….I played mesmer since bw2 and feel in love with it, I don’t fotm or I wouldn’t have played feral in wow for 5 years.
Oh and yes eles are trash, the whole profession is basically useless in SPvP and seems to have been since launch. Maybe somewhere out there exists 1 ele who has some how managed to master the elementalist and get it to do thing’s it shouldn’t be able to but personal experience from tourneys and HJ tells me that if I see an ele I can laugh and collect my free kill, it is the only profession which appears to have 0 impact on a 1v2 when I fight it, has THE worst downed state abilities and I have never met a player using it that wow’d me. Every other profession I’ve met at least one who really made me feel like the player behind it was good and the class had at least some potential.
EDIT:
The only whiner here would be you, who go around playing the fotm profession and tell other to l2p.
I tell you what..you reach champion magus title and then maybe I can start reading your posts without laughing…but in the meantime GTFO
Scans post….sees no L2P statements. Although that said, the one thing I do find funny is the fact you think having champion magus makes you a good player, an average player would achieve a 50% win ratio meaning if you play enough then you get it for free. It’s like basing your idea of skill off achievement points, basically meaningless.
(edited by Malakree.5912)
This thread has derailed into a flamewar.
This thread is closed