View-ability as an ESport.

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Posted by: TwoBit.5903

TwoBit.5903

Greetings GW2 PvPers. It’s Sunday and I’m bored, so I’ve taken the liberty of writing another long rant, this time about the viewability of GW2 as an ESport. What better way to start off a long rant than with a long tangent?

A long tangent about complexity, Starcraft and Esports viewability

Before I go on, I should probably explain what I believe to be complexity in a videogame. Yes, this will be a tangent within a tangent. When I’m speaking about complexity I’m referring to the various factors and conditions that add up impact to gameplay. In an RPG much of this boils down to builds and statistics that create an effect; the complexities of dealing 10000 damage to an enemy exist not in the number itself, but in the conditions and statistics required for it. In the context of a viewed sport I believe it helps to look at these conditions in terms of a dramatic arc where each condition is a part of the rising action, and the payoff is the climax.

Veritable ESports games such as Starcraft and the DotA clones spoon-feed their viewers the build process from the beginning to the end of each match. It’s literally built into the game’s structure itself. In any Starcraft match, a Terran player starts off just as any other Terran player until they begin to make complex decisions that would result in a build. The same player could have completely different capabilities several minutes later into the game depending on series of decisions that occur throughout the match. In short it’s a dynamic and complex series of decisions and payoffs that build up from zero.

Much of the decision-making is actually balanced outside of the match in language and math that would likely give average people aneurysms, but Starcraft’s ability to telegraph the result of that complexity into a viewable build process is its greatest strength. It turns what would have otherwise been the game’s self-contained logic into drama that even newcomers could enjoy, while its complexity leaves room for emergent styles of play. I wouldn’t be doing the game justice if I said it was pretty darn amazing.

Because this tangent isn’t all that aimless, here’s how it relates to Guild Wars 2

If a match in Starcraft would encompass a complete dramatic arc, a match in Guild Wars 2 would spam from near the end of that arc, from somewhere right before the climax to the denouement, and then drag on somewhat. In other words, it doesn’t really start from zero and there are fewer decisions to be viewed. This is the irritating result of the MMO PvP format, where most of the decision-making happens backstage and the actual fight is mostly a matter of execution. I say mostly because maps often impose one or two mechanics that try to promote choice, but abusing those mechanics often become formulaic (Elementalist on Treb, anyone?).

Watching the execution of each build can be fun to players who are already invested in the game, but because much of the actual build process is hidden, viewership excludes everyone else. Guild Wars 2 is a game that requires viewers to understand the intricacies of the hidden profession traits and utilities chosen before the match even begins. Non-GW2 players watching a GW2 steam are not going to know that the Elemenalist who’s dodging in Earth Attunement into a lava font is actually stacking might because he’s happens to be carrying Evasive Arcana or that his Guardian friend is pounding aimlessly into the field to buff the team with more might stacks. The decisions behind those actions aren’t visible to these viewers. When you factor in the speed at which combat takes place, each fight is like the game is yelling a thick and foreign language at these viewer without first priming them; it can be incomprehensible and even disorienting.

Edit: Grammar and typos.

(edited by TwoBit.5903)

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Posted by: TwoBit.5903

TwoBit.5903

Some vague suggestions that may or may not help

Since I’ve yet again gone out of my way to criticize GW2’s PvP, I may as well turn that criticism into something constructive.

1. Telegraphing and presentation are of the utmost importance in a sport. Poker was almost unwatchable until someone figured out a way to broadcast it that gave a bit of drama to each draw of from deck.
If the game is to include an observer mode, take into account things that would help the viewer better understand the match. Things like player statistics (attack, health, etc), weapons and utilities may be factors that the viewer should know. This will help ease the fact that most of the decision making is done through traits and utilities.

2. Get rid of needless complexity. Many of the traits and skills in the game have their own subset of rules, and thenthere are rules on top of those rules that to restrict them. Abilities like these are intrinsically difficult to telegraph and difficult to understand during the course of the fight. For instance the numerous Elementalist speed abilities should either be consolidated into one trait or be done away with altogether. They don’t even work with swiftness! Just remember to keep the traits simple but meaningful and logically intuitive.

4. Redesign your conquest mode to include deeper decisions (plural). The way matches play out is obviously not interesting enough to retain viewers much less the players themselves. Dividing members to stand on nodes and fight others is only one isolated decision, because combat is really only one decision. There should be some sort of build-up.

5. If your current MMO PvP/Conquest format isn’t working as a viewable sport, don’t force it to work. If you abandon it you’ll only be kitten off up to the few hundred people who are still playing it.

6. On that note, if you do abandon the format don’t follow a template with your new one. It may be tempting to copy games like StarCraft now that I’ve played them up, but don’t do it. If you copy and succeed, GW2 will be a clone. If you copy and fail, GW2 will be a derivative clone.

(edited by TwoBit.5903)

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Posted by: Coopers.4376

Coopers.4376

^this whole heartedly

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Posted by: Zodian.6597

Zodian.6597

Very informative, and well written thread. It’s nice to find gems like this hidden through all the garbage that accumulates in this sub-forum. -Neglekt

Neglekt

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Posted by: condiments.8043

condiments.8043

I think having the fixed weaponset abilities mitigates some of the issues that come up with a viewer not understanding the underlying subtleties of traits. With any sort of regular viewership, someone watching may come to understand some of the key abilities associated with each class when they play a certain weaponset. Like for example, the viewer watching a warrior with a greatsword will quickly come to understand the fight changing performance of landing hundred blades on someone.

Not all classes have such distinctive abilities for their weaponsets, but its certainly a better situation for viewing then a completely malleable skill bar ala GW1.

Cretius-Elementalist
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Posted by: Magnus Pym.2356

Magnus Pym.2356

If it’s inspired from GW1’s observer mode in any way; you will be able to switch between players PoV, will have a party status interface to watch health and the score will show, as well as the individual points.

You will quickly pick up on said intricacies by watching your favorite pro players.

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Posted by: MarcusGood.5270

MarcusGood.5270

Yea, if there isnt a change to make gw2 esports viable soon i will quit for a game that can feed my hunger for it, Counterstrike or Bf3 … Maybe league of legends?

I Kurupt I NecrO
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Posted by: Wanderer.5471

Wanderer.5471

This is a fascinating point about how in starcraft you see the decisions that lead to the end result, whereas here the build process is hidden.

I used to watch sc2 replays when i played, but sometimes when i hadn’t played for months. I even saw people post on the videos that they never played starcraft 2 but like watching it!!!

I think one way this could be fixed with GW2 is first of all REPLAYS they are the bread and butter of an e-sport you can’t commentate on one if it doesn’t exist. The replays need to contain the build information of all the players, then before the match, the commentator can spend 10 seconds on each of the 5 players of each team. They will make broad analyses based on their builds e.g:

- strong in melee
-weak to conditions
-no stun breaker

then do the same for the team as a whole. It won’t matter whether their predictions are 100% correct, sometimes if it plays out differently e.g. a build actually does well vs burst when they said they’d be weak etc, what matters is the spectator gets some sort of expectations beforehand, they get some sense of why thing played out the way they did – even if the commentator is changing their analysis halfway through.

Post-game analysis would also be great, utilising footage from the match, maybe name an MVP each time etc – I would love to watch this, can’t believe Anet haven’t added replays yet…

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Posted by: Sylosi.6503

Sylosi.6503

Guild Wars 2 is a game that requires viewers to understand the intricacies of the hidden profession traits and utilities chosen before the match even begins. Non-GW2 players watching a GW2 steam are not going to know that the Elemenalist who’s dodging in Earth Attunement into a lava font is actually stacking might because he’s happens to be carrying Evasive Arcana or that his Guardian friend is pounding aimlessly into the field to buff the team with more might stacks. The decisions behind those actions isn’t visible to these viewers. When you factor in the speed at which combat takes place, each fight is like the game is yelling a thick and foreign language at these viewer without first priming them; it can be incomprehensible and even disorienting.

Sorry, but your post makes no sense, if I put someone in front of SC2 who has never played they will be just as clueless about the decisions as they would for GW2, they don’t know why a player uses one type of unit against a certain type of unit of his opponent, they would need knowledge of the game, the decisions behind the actions of players in SC2 (or LoL) are no more visible to players than they are in GW2.

In fact I’d suggest GW2 as a match is easier to understand than a MOBA, the maps in GW2 are simpler, capture / hold the points, get points for the NPCs (the new viewer may miss that they also buff), compare that to LoL map for a new viewer who has no knowledge of the game, it is much more complicated, and even though they can see certain build aspects they will not understand them without knowledge of the game (e.g – they won’t understand the choice of composition of heros / bans before the gaems start, they will learn nothing from when the player spends gold, not they they will even see the choices much of the time as teh player will make those choices too fast).

But perhaps most importantly, your whole theory is predicated on a false premise, that games are watched by people with no interest or knowledge of the game, even the most popular “e-sport” LoL only gets figures equivalent to about 25% of its active userbase (and that is for finals, normal viewing figures for LoL are much less), when you factor in ex-players who may watch, how many of its viewers do you think have zero knowledge of the game, I’d suggest very, very few and most of those few will not be watching it as an “e-sport”, but merely to see if it is game they might try.

(edited by Sylosi.6503)

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Posted by: Pharexys.4280

Pharexys.4280

Yep this is how i want evry player to speak about GW2, not stupid attention kitten threads.
+1 from me and <3

Devils Inside for life.
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Posted by: Kasama.8941

Kasama.8941

While I agree with your points, Guild Wars 2 is much more comparable to a first person shooter, then it is to a real-time strategy game. It’s about the player to player action. The build up can be conveyed through commentators, before the game starts. Talking about the current meta-game, what each player is playing, and how their builds work together.

80 Ranger | 80 Mesmer | 80 Thief | 80 Guardian | 40 Engineer
“The learned is happy, nature to explore. The fool is happy, that he knows no more.”
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Posted by: madatom.5218

madatom.5218

your entire post could have been summarized with this

your current MMO PvP/Conquest format isn’t working as a viewable sport, don’t force it to work. If you abandon it you’ll only be kitten off up to the few hundred people who are still playing it.

everything else is secondary as they will follow suit as soon as the rather abysmal bunker/support/roamer meta is done away with

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Posted by: Obly.9243

Obly.9243

I simply still can’t understand why they made an MMORPG with such an awesome seperation regarding pvp and pve (Gear advantage) then pick a game mode that has PROVEN on various occasions that simply does not work nor wants to work.

UT tried it (numerous times), LOL (league of legends) tried it with Domination (that;s a abandoned game-mode) only a few ever play it just to break the boredom. Now ANet tries it.

Won’t work, ANet made a secondary fatal flaw with their PvP design to double the effect of this game-mode, the way the point system works. Guarding points yield nothing unless you kill a player near it, zerging around retaking node after node and killing people along the way yields triple or more points and thus rank/glory.
So the OP is right, If you people really want to turn this into an e-sport, you got a lot of work to do, for the masses, this simply is not worth the time.

wtf…skyham….all is vain

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Posted by: Pickmansmodel.1298

Pickmansmodel.1298

Personally, I can’t think of a more entertaining way of spending an evening than watching bunkers stand on bases.

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Posted by: Mrbig.8019

Mrbig.8019

Personally, i like conquest, and ,overall, objectives based gameplay.

What i don’t like is being able to kill ( and being killed) in less than a sec ( guess what, i’m a thief), or whatching a toon being able to tank 1-2 people for more than a minute unless they focus burst ( hoping they’re 2 dps proffs) him.

If class balancing was different, the game would have been a lot more entertaining: just try running a team without a single bunker ( maybe even without double ranger/ele broken cheese) and you’ll notice the difference.

personally i find it very entertaining, altough you can lose a lot of times to cheese comps ( but when you beat them, it’s indeed very rewarding).

If PvP was also more rewarding ( and more attractive for PvE players), we would have a more healthy PvP playerbase.

Conquest is fine, the only thing is that PvP system and class balance need to be severely adjusted.

(edited by Mrbig.8019)

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Posted by: Fourth.1567

Fourth.1567

The only matchup in this game that has viewability includes a balanced s/d ele (not a bunker) or a shout warrrior. Just because of the setup required as there are stages to the gameplay. The other matchups all lack this with time to kill being many times too short, or not existing.

I might go into this in more detail later when I have time.

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Posted by: TwoBit.5903

TwoBit.5903

Guild Wars 2 is a game that requires viewers to understand the intricacies of the hidden profession traits and utilities chosen before the match even begins. Non-GW2 players watching a GW2 steam are not going to know that the Elemenalist who’s dodging in Earth Attunement into a lava font is actually stacking might because he’s happens to be carrying Evasive Arcana or that his Guardian friend is pounding aimlessly into the field to buff the team with more might stacks. The decisions behind those actions isn’t visible to these viewers. When you factor in the speed at which combat takes place, each fight is like the game is yelling a thick and foreign language at these viewer without first priming them; it can be incomprehensible and even disorienting.

Sorry, but your post makes no sense, if I put someone in front of SC2 who has never played they will be just as clueless about the decisions as they would for GW2, they don’t know why a player uses one type of unit against a certain type of unit of his opponent, they would need knowledge of the game, the decisions behind the actions of players in SC2 (or LoL) are no more visible to players than they are in GW2.

In fact I’d suggest GW2 as a match is easier to understand than a MOBA, the maps in GW2 are simpler, capture / hold the points, get points for the NPCs (the new viewer may miss that they also buff), compare that to LoL map for a new viewer who has no knowledge of the game, it is much more complicated, and even though they can see certain build aspects they will not understand them without knowledge of the game (e.g – they won’t understand the choice of composition of heros / bans before the gaems start, they will learn nothing from when the player spends gold, not they they will even see the choices much of the time as teh player will make those choices too fast).

But perhaps most importantly, your whole theory is predicated on a false premise, that games are watched by people with no interest or knowledge of the game, even the most popular “e-sport” LoL only gets figures equivalent to about 25% of its active userbase (and that is for finals, normal viewing figures for LoL are much less), when you factor in ex-players who may watch, how many of its viewers do you think have zero knowledge of the game, I’d suggest very, very few and most of those few will not be watching it as an “e-sport”, but merely to see if it is game they might try.

You seem misunderstand my post. The point isn’t that viewers would understand everything presented to them all the time. The point is that SC in all its complexity is able to presented itself as drama.

But ignoring that, decisions in SC (I never mentioned SCII, but this kind of applies as well) are still very easy to understand as the little intricacies of unit choice, build order and upgrades can be explained in no more than one sentence. It’s the same deal with MOBAs. The complexities like laning, fog of war, buffs, wards in maps are easy to understand when you’re watching the game because they’re intuitive. The intricacies are these games are no more difficult to understand than football. If anything both games, like football, have announcers and broadcasters that make it even easier to understand and usually more exciting. Guild Wars 2 has no such luxury.

It’s true that overall strategies in GW2 are indeed easy to understand because conquest is simple, but that’s not a strength. Because conquest is so simple there’s little room for interesting decisions. Most of the interesting decisions occur with profession matchups, but as I’ve previously mentioned combat in GW2 is very fast and complex. Because the build process and premises behind them are hidden from viewers, they’ll be less likely to understand the skills used during fights and therefore less likely to understand the reasoning behind strategy. These intricacies are not easy to explain nor are they always intuitive.

Assuming that people with no interest at all in the videogame is absurd. That’s why it’s not my premise of my statements. The premise was that eSports like SC and the Dota clones are exciting to watch and easy to understand. That helps to bring new viewers in and that’s intrinsically good for them because it makes them popular to watch and the promise of popularity brings in sponsorships, and so forth. And, as you said, this also helps bring in new players who want to try the game. Intrinsically good.

I haven’t been keeping track, but what’s the raw number of active LoL players? And how big is 25% of that? Seeing as how LoL is the most casual of the clones, 25% of the entire active player base being interested in watching high level play may not be unsurprising. Maybe the other 75% aren’t interested in high level play. Does this take into account the Korean base where the eSports scene is at its largest?

(edited by TwoBit.5903)

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Posted by: Sylosi.6503

Sylosi.6503

You seem misunderstand my post. The point isn’t that viewers would understand everything presented to them all the time. The point is that SC in all its complexity is able to presented itself as drama.

This seems very subjective to me, I don’t see any more drama in SC than GW2 (or numerous other games), if the game is getting near the end and the score is close in a GW2 game and mid is being contested, far is being contested, then svanir pops, the outcomes of which will decide the result, that is drama.

But ignoring that, decisions in SC (I never mentioned SCII, but this kind of applies as well) are still very easy to understand as the little intricacies of unit choice, build order and upgrades can be explained in no more than one sentence. It’s the same deal with MOBAs. The complexities like laning, fog of war, buffs, wards in maps are easy to understand when you’re watching the game because they’re intuitive. The intricacies are these games are no more difficult to understand than football. If anything both games, like football, have announcers and broadcasters that make it even easier to understand and usually more exciting. Guild Wars 2 has no such luxury.

I entirely disagree, I know people who quit SC because of the level of knowledge required to be good at it, the notion that those uneducated in the game will have a clue to the intricacies of a match is ludricous.

In regard to real sport, there is no comparision, all but the simplist of video games need to be played to be understood to any real extent (certainly the lieks of LoL, DOTA, SC, etc), where as a lot of sports are beyond simple in comparision (they are also far more visual and provide info to the viewer in a far more accessible form), sports also have other things that engage people like atomsphere, athleticism, artistry, personalities / emotions (newsflash – a camera showing 4 teens staring at screens does not cut it).

As for announcers / broadcasters, all I can say is mute button, they are terrible, but then that goes for a lot of real sports commentators as well.

Assuming that people with no interest at all in the videogame is absurd. That’s why it’s not my premise of my statements. The premise was that eSports like SC and the Dota clones are exciting to watch and easy to understand. That helps to bring new viewers in and that’s intrinsically good for them because it makes them popular to watch and the promise of popularity brings in sponsorships, and so forth. And, as you said, this also helps bring in new players who want to try the game. Intrinsically good.

Your premise is still absurd, they are not easy to understand, which is why watching them is only of interest to those who play the game (or previously played it) and have knowledge of the game.

I haven’t been keeping track, but what’s the raw number of active LoL players? And how big is 25% of that? Seeing as how LoL is the most casual of the clones, 25% of the entire active player base being interested in watching high level play may not be unsurprising. Maybe the other 75% aren’t interested in high level play. Does this take into account the Korean base where the eSports scene is at its largest?

I don’t keep track either, I just remember last year Riot announced about 8m people watched their finals, and Riot stated they have about 32 million active accounts.

Hence why I think your premise is incorrect, the reality is the vast majority of people that watch “e-sports” have knowledge of the games they watch / play the game, that some games have some aspects that are a bit easier to understand are irrelevant, the vast majority of the audience already understands the game as I’d suggest the vast majority of the audience play (or have played) the game.

(edited by Sylosi.6503)

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Posted by: Antipode.2518

Antipode.2518

Sorry, but your post makes no sense, if I put someone in front of SC2 who has never played they will be just as clueless about the decisions as they would for GW2, they don’t know why a player uses one type of unit against a certain type of unit of his opponent, they would need knowledge of the game, the decisions behind the actions of players in SC2 (or LoL) are no more visible to players than they are in GW2.

Nope. SC2 is far easier to understand at a basic level. A large part of that has to do with the fixed overhead camera angle. Another is that people can get a rough idea of how powerful a unit or spell is based on the size/graphic. It’s obvious that Zerglings are weaker per unit than the Ultralisk. Lastly, there’s more phases in a SC2 game that allow the commentators time to explain what will happen or what has happened.

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Posted by: Angry Flying Squirrel.3041

Angry Flying Squirrel.3041

Sorry, but your post makes no sense, if I put someone in front of SC2 who has never played they will be just as clueless about the decisions as they would for GW2, they don’t know why a player uses one type of unit against a certain type of unit of his opponent, they would need knowledge of the game, the decisions behind the actions of players in SC2 (or LoL) are no more visible to players than they are in GW2.

Nope. SC2 is far easier to understand at a basic level. A large part of that has to do with the fixed overhead camera angle. Another is that people can get a rough idea of how powerful a unit or spell is based on the size/graphic. It’s obvious that Zerglings are weaker per unit than the Ultralisk. Lastly, there’s more phases in a SC2 game that allow the commentators time to explain what will happen or what has happened.

There is also no game effecting stats or build outside the match. In other words what you see is everything that will affect the match. This is just not true in GW2. Even LoL which does in fact have talent tree’s and gems(stat boosters) that affect damage and such, the commentators don’t care, or really even talk about them. Why? because they are a set item, they are always there, when you build for a role you always have the same talents and the same stat boosters, so in the end it has no real affect on the match.

Players builds and the meta game outside of a match has way to much of an effect on the match, this creates a distancing effect on the people watching the match.

Setnnex-Necro