Guild Wars 2

Okay, so, rating changes are now visible, which is wonderful (especially in the API, so rating changes during placement matches are also technically visible).

It’s time to include individual player MMR in the post-match results (before and/or after rating changes). I get that it can be used as a way to point fingers, but the benefits of visible player MMRs (at the end of a match) outweighs the negatives (which are already happening, just requires more steps by adding players to friend’s list). This will allow players to determine exactly what’s going on with matchmaking, and why a match ended the way it did.

If that’s not done, at the very least, average team MMR should be included in the post-match result (before rating changes, as that’s what will be used to determine odds of victory). We need a bit more transparency.

Everyone knows what is going on with MM, making it more visible won’t solve the issue of 1. lack of players 2. MM built around quantity instead of quality.

Simply no…let’s not give new tools to abuse for trolls and unstable people. We know how seasons 1-4 looked like.

Mr Godlike.6098:

Simply no…let’s not give new tools to abuse for trolls and unstable people. We know how seasons 1-4 looked like.

I disagree it would be a good sanity check. People already act nasty based on what they see in a match anyway it can’t get much worse. Not showing it takes away some incentive for A-net to do a better job also the player base might be able to find bugs with the matchmaking if the results are not what A-net expects and its pointed out to them. They won’t do it though and use what you are saying as an excuse but I believe the real reason is they don’t want us to see the very large MMR spreads that are in many matches together. I will always be for more not less knowledge for the player. The answer to what you are so afraid of is called the block feature or maybe not getting bent out of shape by what someone says. Both work surprisingly well.

steelheart.7386:

Mr Godlike.6098:

Simply no…let’s not give new tools to abuse for trolls and unstable people. We know how seasons 1-4 looked like.

I disagree it would be a good sanity check. People already act nasty based on what they see in a match anyway it can’t get much worse. Not showing it takes away some incentive for A-net to do a better job also the player base might be able to find bugs with the matchmaking if the results are not what A-net expects and its pointed out to them. They won’t do it though and use what you are saying as an excuse but I believe the real reason is they don’t want us to see the very large MMR spreads that are in many matches together. I will always be for more not less knowledge for the player. The answer to what you are so afraid of is called the block feature or maybe not getting bent out of shape by what someone says. Both work surprisingly well.

Anet already has data I don’t know what that would improve. Most blowouts can be explained by checking hour of match, player population, class stacking and such.

We could see divisions in seasons 1-4 and that didn’t have worth in checking how mmr behaves.

Like I sad we shouldn’t give more tools for trolls. Your talking about block and I talk about more things than post match team/map chat.

Mr Godlike.6098:

steelheart.7386:

Mr Godlike.6098:

Simply no…let’s not give new tools to abuse for trolls and unstable people. We know how seasons 1-4 looked like.

I disagree it would be a good sanity check. People already act nasty based on what they see in a match anyway it can’t get much worse. Not showing it takes away some incentive for A-net to do a better job also the player base might be able to find bugs with the matchmaking if the results are not what A-net expects and its pointed out to them. They won’t do it though and use what you are saying as an excuse but I believe the real reason is they don’t want us to see the very large MMR spreads that are in many matches together. I will always be for more not less knowledge for the player. The answer to what you are so afraid of is called the block feature or maybe not getting bent out of shape by what someone says. Both work surprisingly well.

Anet already has data I don’t know what that would improve. Most blowouts can be explained by checking hour of match, player population, class stacking and such.

We could see divisions in seasons 1-4 and that didn’t have worth in checking how mmr behaves.

Like I sad we shouldn’t give more tools for trolls. Your talking about block and I talk about more things than post match team/map chat.

Proportion of trolls is probably minimal compared to the players who can judge things for themselves, with enough information. Sure, ANet has all of the information, and they may reveal it on a case by case basis (as seen on these forums repeatedly), but that requires players asking for that information, and maybe getting a response back.

Having that information transparent (the information needed to explain WHY a match turned out the way it did) cuts down on all of those topics. Sure, trolls will abuse it. As they already do with visible MMR (they have to go about it as equally a roundabout way to get information as players trying to determine why a match ended a particular way).

With more information available, more logical conclusions can be made. This increases learning opportunities, as well as knowing (with certainty) that some matches are simply unwinnable/unloseable depending on the outcome of a match. Among many other conclusions that can be drawn from that information.

I’m all for discouraging whiny cry-baby behaviour too, if that’s what ANet is catering to by keeping that information hidden. The world isn’t a safe place. Neither is the internet.

No matter what that info would be it’s only distraction from one simple question:

Why I couldn’t carry?

If we can rule out toxic players argument still there is no value of this info. People will try even more to put blame on mmr/other players rather then their inability to improve.

Mr Godlike.6098:

No matter what that info would be it’s only distraction from one simple question:

Why I couldn’t carry?

If we can rule out toxic players argument still there is no value of this info. People will try even more to put blame on mmr/other players rather then their inability to improve.

GW2 PvP isn’t the easiest to carry all by yourself. Communication is possible, but cumbersome, and relies on teammates actually listening (which isn’t a guarantee). If one player is more experienced, and the others follow their lead, then it’s possible to carry a match (frankly, I did so myself on one match due to a mix of poor decisions made by the opposing team, and my teammates wanted to make the same decisions themselves; my input stopped them from doing so).

You can certainly attempt to carry a match, but with limited means to do so, it’s not a guarantee.

they will never do this because it will show how broken the matchmaking is.

Matchmaking puts 2 ESL players with 3 silvers to fight 5 Gold…. We then tell those 5 Gold players they are where they belong because they couldn’t fight off ESL players, that rating is accurate and matchmaking is working fine because the match was even-ish…..

Most people only know the matchmaking is broken because they take the time to check the players/leaderboards, if a tool came out to show EVERYONE how broken the match making is, it would be really bad for us players and the company.

Mr Godlike.6098:

No matter what that info would be it’s only distraction from one simple question:

Why I couldn’t carry?

If we can rule out toxic players argument still there is no value of this info. People will try even more to put blame on mmr/other players rather then their inability to improve.

Players already blame everyone else on the team when they lose. Toxic players will be toxic, that is no excuse to hold back on useful features.

As for saying there is no use for us having this information, I disagree. During the last season, I would add all the players in a match to my friend’s list and check everyone’s ratings before and after the match. Through this method, myself and others noted that the matchmaker was stacking teams in an odd manner. Anet took a look at the issue, and then made changes to how the matchmaker formed teams. Had this issue never been noticed by us, changes may have never been made. The problem with this method though was that the Leaderboards update very slowly and I could only use this method once per day.

Point is, that information is useful, and should very well be displayed at the end of every match.

visible mmrs positives outweigh the negatives? can you prove that or can we assume it to be the conjecture it is?

Stand The Wall.6987:

visible mmrs positives outweigh the negatives? can you prove that or can we assume it to be the conjecture it is?

Can you prove the opposite? What is the purpose of such a question? The best I can do would be to lay everything out and provide personal experience and opinions.

So far from what I’ve read:
Pros

• Players can provide better feedback about the matchmaking system.

Cons

• Showing player ratings at the end of a match would encourage players to blame others every time they lose.

That was actually a pretty short list. Did I miss anything? So for the pros, people against it say that extra information won’t help at all. I disagree with this since myself and others actually used this exact information last season to highlight a problem that prompted anet to fix it.

For the cons, I state that in my personal experience, players already blame eachother every time they lose. Hardly ever am I in a match where we lost and everyone was like, “Well guys, we did our best, it was a great match.” Even in matches where we lose by less than 100 points, there is always those players telling everyone else on the team that they suck. If we have visible mmrs, they will still be just as toxic, just in a different manner.

Shaogin.2679:

Stand The Wall.6987:

visible mmrs positives outweigh the negatives? can you prove that or can we assume it to be the conjecture it is?

Can you prove the opposite? What is the purpose of such a question? The best I can do would be to lay everything out and provide personal experience and opinions.

So far from what I’ve read:
Pros

• Players can provide better feedback about the matchmaking system.

Cons

• Showing player ratings at the end of a match would encourage players to blame others every time they lose.

That was actually a pretty short list. Did I miss anything? So for the pros, people against it say that extra information won’t help at all. I disagree with this since myself and others actually used this exact information last season to highlight a problem that prompted anet to fix it.

For the cons, I state that in my personal experience, players already blame eachother every time they lose. Hardly ever am I in a match where we lost and everyone was like, “Well guys, we did our best, it was a great match.” Even in matches where we lose by less than 100 points, there is always those players telling everyone else on the team that they suck. If we have visible mmrs, they will still be just as toxic, just in a different manner.

Or we find out that the flamers are the ones with the bad MMR! XD

Shaogin.2679:

Stand The Wall.6987:

visible mmrs positives outweigh the negatives? can you prove that or can we assume it to be the conjecture it is?

Can you prove the opposite? What is the purpose of such a question? The best I can do would be to lay everything out and provide personal experience and opinions.

So far from what I’ve read:
Pros

• Players can provide better feedback about the matchmaking system.

Cons

• Showing player ratings at the end of a match would encourage players to blame others every time they lose.

That was actually a pretty short list. Did I miss anything? So for the pros, people against it say that extra information won’t help at all. I disagree with this since myself and others actually used this exact information last season to highlight a problem that prompted anet to fix it.

For the cons, I state that in my personal experience, players already blame eachother every time they lose. Hardly ever am I in a match where we lost and everyone was like, “Well guys, we did our best, it was a great match.” Even in matches where we lose by less than 100 points, there is always those players telling everyone else on the team that they suck. If we have visible mmrs, they will still be just as toxic, just in a different manner.

if mmr have to be seen it have to be at the begining, in this manner team knows who is the theoric weakest link and who needs more to be +1ed im an 1v1 regardless of their class and rival class, and not doing in this manner is “team” fault, not less mmr one fault

Rashy.4165:

Okay, so, rating changes are now visible, which is wonderful (especially in the API, so rating changes during placement matches are also technically visible).

It’s time to include individual player MMR in the post-match results (before and/or after rating changes). I get that it can be used as a way to point fingers, but the benefits of visible player MMRs (at the end of a match) outweighs the negatives (which are already happening, just requires more steps by adding players to friend’s list). This will allow players to determine exactly what’s going on with matchmaking, and why a match ended the way it did.

If that’s not done, at the very least, average team MMR should be included in the post-match result (before rating changes, as that’s what will be used to determine odds of victory). We need a bit more transparency.

You get a measure of team MMR at the end of the match. Once you have played enough matches for your MMR to stabilize, your matches should all return about the same rating gain/loss. If you win and have a smaller gain than normal, you know it is a team you should beat. If you win and have a larger gain than normal you know you beat a team that was rated higher. Same with losses. Small losses mean you were playing a better team, large losses mean you were playing a lower rated team.

In may case the +8 and +18 were outlier matches. Typically I’m in the 12-14 range.

megilandil.7506:

Shaogin.2679:

Stand The Wall.6987:

visible mmrs positives outweigh the negatives? can you prove that or can we assume it to be the conjecture it is?

Can you prove the opposite? What is the purpose of such a question? The best I can do would be to lay everything out and provide personal experience and opinions.

So far from what I’ve read:
Pros

• Players can provide better feedback about the matchmaking system.

Cons

• Showing player ratings at the end of a match would encourage players to blame others every time they lose.

That was actually a pretty short list. Did I miss anything? So for the pros, people against it say that extra information won’t help at all. I disagree with this since myself and others actually used this exact information last season to highlight a problem that prompted anet to fix it.

For the cons, I state that in my personal experience, players already blame eachother every time they lose. Hardly ever am I in a match where we lost and everyone was like, “Well guys, we did our best, it was a great match.” Even in matches where we lose by less than 100 points, there is always those players telling everyone else on the team that they suck. If we have visible mmrs, they will still be just as toxic, just in a different manner.

if mmr have to be seen it have to be at the begining, in this manner team knows who is the theoric weakest link and who needs more to be +1ed im an 1v1 regardless of their class and rival class, and not doing in this manner is “team” fault, not less mmr one fault

No, if you show everyone’s ratings at the start of the match, you create an entirely new problem. People start complaining right off the bat and would possibly afk more if they deem the match-up to be bad.

megilandil.7506:

Shaogin.2679:

Stand The Wall.6987:

visible mmrs positives outweigh the negatives? can you prove that or can we assume it to be the conjecture it is?

Can you prove the opposite? What is the purpose of such a question? The best I can do would be to lay everything out and provide personal experience and opinions.

So far from what I’ve read:
Pros

• Players can provide better feedback about the matchmaking system.

Cons

• Showing player ratings at the end of a match would encourage players to blame others every time they lose.

That was actually a pretty short list. Did I miss anything? So for the pros, people against it say that extra information won’t help at all. I disagree with this since myself and others actually used this exact information last season to highlight a problem that prompted anet to fix it.

For the cons, I state that in my personal experience, players already blame eachother every time they lose. Hardly ever am I in a match where we lost and everyone was like, “Well guys, we did our best, it was a great match.” Even in matches where we lose by less than 100 points, there is always those players telling everyone else on the team that they suck. If we have visible mmrs, they will still be just as toxic, just in a different manner.

if mmr have to be seen it have to be at the begining, in this manner team knows who is the theoric weakest link and who needs more to be +1ed im an 1v1 regardless of their class and rival class, and not doing in this manner is “team” fault, not less mmr one fault

I agree. It also would imply who should be leading.

Shaogin.2679:

megilandil.7506:

Shaogin.2679:

Stand The Wall.6987:

visible mmrs positives outweigh the negatives? can you prove that or can we assume it to be the conjecture it is?

Can you prove the opposite? What is the purpose of such a question? The best I can do would be to lay everything out and provide personal experience and opinions.

So far from what I’ve read:
Pros

• Players can provide better feedback about the matchmaking system.

Cons

• Showing player ratings at the end of a match would encourage players to blame others every time they lose.

That was actually a pretty short list. Did I miss anything? So for the pros, people against it say that extra information won’t help at all. I disagree with this since myself and others actually used this exact information last season to highlight a problem that prompted anet to fix it.

For the cons, I state that in my personal experience, players already blame eachother every time they lose. Hardly ever am I in a match where we lost and everyone was like, “Well guys, we did our best, it was a great match.” Even in matches where we lose by less than 100 points, there is always those players telling everyone else on the team that they suck. If we have visible mmrs, they will still be just as toxic, just in a different manner.

if mmr have to be seen it have to be at the begining, in this manner team knows who is the theoric weakest link and who needs more to be +1ed im an 1v1 regardless of their class and rival class, and not doing in this manner is “team” fault, not less mmr one fault

No, if you show everyone’s ratings at the start of the match, you create an entirely new problem. People start complaining right off the bat and would possibly afk more if they deem the match-up to be bad.

toxic ones will be in any system, but random pug teams dont have idea of who is their strong one and their weak one, and if we are in matcht to push for victory and will try it those information is of big value(teams know it and use in their favour x player is a good duelist and can handle the duel, we dont have to run to asist and uncover other base, y player is more weak assist as soon is possible etc etc, if we are only for doing “our” part and hope the other do their and game be a perfect rock papper scisor(x class ever beat y class) this information is not relevant.
and of course not everyones only teammates, info on rivals at the end and in aproximate way (sub-divisions are suficient mmr tight for giving and idea of it)

How about showing the ratings without the players names. Christ there are ways around this. It would be useful information period. Just have a tab it would list the five ratings on both teams without names. Some of you are such awful anet white knighters it kills me. More info = good. They know this they are not doing it because they dont want it to be so easy expose there match making.

Shaogin.2679:

snipples

the purpose is to get the OP to actually talk about the cons instead of dismissing them. they said “oh well its already happening so not much will change”, and youre saying the same thing. its a really dumb argument. giving people more precise tools to use against each other isn’t going to make things go along “the same as it was”. its going to make it a lot easier for people to misuse them, on a grander scale. its a lot like the dps meter issue in pve.

Stand The Wall.6987:

Shaogin.2679:

snipples

the purpose is to get the OP to actually talk about the cons instead of dismissing them. they said “oh well its already happening so not much will change”, and youre saying the same thing. its a really dumb argument. giving people more precise tools to use against each other isn’t going to make things go along “the same as it was”. its going to make it a lot easier for people to misuse them, on a grander scale. its a lot like the dps meter issue in pve.

So best case scenario, matchmaker is putting together great matches with even teams and people can’t complain about other player’s ratings because they’re around the same rating. Awesome.

Worst case scenario, matchmaker is putting together horrible matches and players complain that they are get stuck with low rated players while the other team gets high rated players. Well, still awesome, we are now addressing an issue and have facts to present instead of just claiming everyone sucks.

We’re not dismissing the fact that toxic players will use this tool to be toxic, that’s what toxic players do. Wanna hear a dumb argument? Saying hey let’s not implement useful features because we’re scared of toxic players. That’s a dumb argument.

Just put the rating at the end like other competitive games, it’s already possible by adding everyone in the game so why not just do it for research purposes?

In the case of toxicity, there’s already toxic people that call you out for being trash which might actually be a fair point, if they weren’t -300 rating away from you. It is not their fault that the matchmaker put them there but you wouldn’t know because there’s nothing telling you.

tl;dr Toxic will be toxic regardless, might as well give people more information to work on improving matchmaking

I also want to see ratings after the match. It makes it transparent. digging in the leaderboard or seting temporary friends is anoying ;-).

BTW, the rating is not the MMR.

It’s kinda of a problem when we have a good MMR but our Rating is undervalued because of bad placement matches.

This kind of things, don’t help veteran players playing the game at all.

We should see both, MMR and Rating.

Jourdelune.7456:

BTW, the rating is not the MMR.

Your leaderboard rating is your glicko2 rating, the exact same glicko2 rating that is used by the matchmaker.