WHY MATCHMAKING IS BROKEN
You sum up one of the core problems quite well. Entering as a soloq atm in gw2 just doesnt work.
What you said about the mmr, well thats basically how it is. Some ignorant people out there beg to differ tho.
This is the best explanation I’ve heard yet and very accurate.
I was expecting the OP to shout during this video.
Solo queue does work and has worked. The entry is based on MMR, available players and within a variance of yours.
Forced 5 man groups is just a ridiculous way of going about fixing the core problem with GW2 pvp. You really run a high risk of dwindling the population down even more.
I post from a phone so please excuse any references to ducks or any other auto corrections.
I was expecting the OP to shout during this video.
Solo queue does work and has worked. The entry is based on MMR, available players and within a variance of yours.
Forced 5 man groups is just a ridiculous way of going about fixing the core problem with GW2 pvp. You really run a high risk of dwindling the population down even more.
im not saying that we should force ppl to que with full parties lol. what i meant to say is just that this is what the system is intended to be ranking with. this is how it will work optimally.
You’re right the game has no way to calculate individual skill. That was realized during all the beta ladders during Fall2015 leading up to HoT 2016.
You’re also right in terms of being on a consistent team. That would yield a more accurate mmr, resulting in more fair matches. But as you said it’s unrealistic for any game to do because casuals, specifically soloQ players, will always be the minority.
Why your point of view is an over-exaggeration of matchmaking
I know you’re making a point but from just your background video I could see how you’ve gotten only as far as Ruby or Diamond. Let me explain without trying to sound like an insult.
No doubt MM will place you on an unfavorable team and no doubt you’ll likely get placed on that team back to back like some kind of bad dream. That said your overall sucess rate in Leagues will be governed by rotations, class type, and build type. Neither of which matchmaking knows how to accommodate in its system. See my quote back in Nov 2015 or my thread back in December explainimg the need of a smarter matchmaking system. Because of this, it requires hundreds of games for mmr to be anywhere near accurate
So that said, we have to be smarter than matchmaking. Rangers are a heavy team dependant class because they do best on side nodes rather than mid fights. They can offer good focus target bursts but it’s only worth wild if they have that +1 cc burst class like Rev or Thief. Rangers complementary heal/cleanses/blinds is not good enough to “carry” in a team fight like Ele. You have Search & Rescue but thats a hit or miss.
TR;DR
We’re all ever more reliant on our rotations, some more than others because of class type but judging from the video, you made a few poor decisions. A lot of players are at matchmakings mercy; we’ve all been there but many have gotten through by working the map and playing efficiently.
- There is no downward “mmr hell” spiral.
- Friend players you don’t want to queue with.
- /team chat to call targets, set targets yourself.
- Be smarter than the bad matchmaking system.
aka FalseLights
Rank: Top 250 since Season 2
#5 best gerdien in wurld
Rank: Top 250 since Season 2
#5 best gerdien in wurld
(edited by Saiyan.1704)
The landslide scores have two explanations:
1 – MM isn’t effective, creating unbalanced teams for a multitude of reasons: classes are unbalanced, skill levels are unbalanced, premades vs soloers and some others.
2 – The game mode promotes landslides. Even with balanced teams very close matches aren’t the rule.
These two don’t indicate an elo hell, just that the system is flawed, but it’s flawed both ways so in theory it’s 50/50.
You’re right the game has no way to calculate individual skill. That was realized during all the beta ladders during Fall2015 leading up to HoT 2016.
You’re also right in terms of being on a consistent team. That would yield a more accurate mmr, resulting in more fair matches. But as you said it’s unrealistic for any game to do because casuals, specifically soloQ players, will always be the minority.
Why your point of view is an over-exaggeration of matchmaking
I know you’re making a point but from just your background video I could see how you’ve gotten only as far as Ruby or Diamond. Let me explain without trying to sound like an insult.No doubt MM will place you on an unfavorable team and no doubt you’ll likely get placed on that team back to back like some kind of bad dream. That said your overall sucess rate in Leagues will be governed by rotations, class type, and build type. Neither of which matchmaking knows how to accommodate in its system. See my quote back in Nov 2015 or my thread back in December explainimg the need of a smarter matchmaking system. Because of this, it requires hundreds of games for mmr to be anywhere near accurate
So that said, we have to be smarter than matchmaking. Rangers are a heavy team dependant class because they do best on side nodes rather than mid fights. They can offer good focus target bursts but it’s only worth wild if they have that +1 cc burst class like Rev or Thief. Rangers complementary heal/cleanses/blinds is not good enough to “carry” in a team fight like Ele. You have Search & Rescue but thats a hit or miss.
TR;DR
We’re all ever more reliant on our rotations, some more than others because of class type but judging from the video, you made a few poor decisions. A lot of players are at matchmakings mercy; we’ve all been there but many have gotten through by working the map and playing efficiently.
- There is no downward “mmr hell” spiral.
- Friend players you don’t want to queue with.
- /team chat to call targets, set targets yourself.
- Be smarter than the bad matchmaking system.
appreciate the feedback but.. ( ok sry i havent actually read the quote from 2015 you posted lol ) what are you trying to say? the mmr spiral doesnt exist? yes it does… i explained it perfectly in the video. sure it might take more matches for that to happen but you get the idea. over a long period of time this could happen. also the "being smarter than matchmaking " tips you listed are more of a common practice that nearly everyone uses..
and no i never said that im ruby / diamond. that was just an example so it would be easier to understand. i was on a huge winstreak from sapphire to legendary and i hardly ever lost at all. i mean.. it was so easy that i couldve gone afk in the game and my team wouldve won for me. like i said, its always 50 – 500 or 500 – 50. ( obviously it can vary with a hundred points or so but you get the idea )
so like.. if its THAT easy.. i can just winstreak for free.. imagine if i wasnt actually good enough to beat the opponent team? i wouldnt be deserving the pip and mmr boost. thats my point. soloq is just not working, and i dont think it was meant to.
The landslide scores have two explanations:
1 – MM isn’t effective, creating unbalanced teams for a multitude of reasons: classes are unbalanced, skill levels are unbalanced, premades vs soloers and some others.
2 – The game mode promotes landslides. Even with balanced teams very close matches aren’t the rule.These two don’t indicate an elo hell, just that the system is flawed, but it’s flawed both ways so in theory it’s 50/50.
that might be true yes. but either way, its sort of the same end result.
also, i realize the game mode can promote blowout or landslide games like you said.. but its worse than that. in the games you are winning, you are literally farming the enemy team on their close point / their base. youre gonna have a 3 cap most of the game.. running from point to point and killing any opponent alive. its not just the score.. everything is just complete.. well i dont even know what to call it lol.
and its not even any fun at all.. when i wanna get back my pips and feel annoyed cus i lost a few games in a row.. i wanna earn the pips back. i dont want to be given compensation. that sucks. its like anet telling you " aww here you go, sorry that you lost a few games" … nobody wants that.
(edited by bigo.9037)
You’re right the game has no way to calculate individual skill. That was realized during all the beta ladders during Fall2015 leading up to HoT 2016.
You’re also right in terms of being on a consistent team. That would yield a more accurate mmr, resulting in more fair matches. But as you said it’s unrealistic for any game to do because casuals, specifically soloQ players, will always be the minority.
Why your point of view is an over-exaggeration of matchmaking
I know you’re making a point but from just your background video I could see how you’ve gotten only as far as Ruby or Diamond. Let me explain without trying to sound like an insult.No doubt MM will place you on an unfavorable team and no doubt you’ll likely get placed on that team back to back like some kind of bad dream. That said your overall sucess rate in Leagues will be governed by rotations, class type, and build type. Neither of which matchmaking knows how to accommodate in its system. See my quote back in Nov 2015 or my thread back in December explainimg the need of a smarter matchmaking system. Because of this, it requires hundreds of games for mmr to be anywhere near accurate
So that said, we have to be smarter than matchmaking. Rangers are a heavy team dependant class because they do best on side nodes rather than mid fights. They can offer good focus target bursts but it’s only worth wild if they have that +1 cc burst class like Rev or Thief. Rangers complementary heal/cleanses/blinds is not good enough to “carry” in a team fight like Ele. You have Search & Rescue but thats a hit or miss.
TR;DR
We’re all ever more reliant on our rotations, some more than others because of class type but judging from the video, you made a few poor decisions. A lot of players are at matchmakings mercy; we’ve all been there but many have gotten through by working the map and playing efficiently.
- There is no downward “mmr hell” spiral.
- Friend players you don’t want to queue with.
- /team chat to call targets, set targets yourself.
- Be smarter than the bad matchmaking system.
appreciate the feedback but.. ( ok sry i havent actually read the quote from 2015 you posted lol ) what are you trying to say? the mmr spiral doesnt exist? yes it does… i explained it perfectly in the video. sure it might take more matches for that to happen but you get the idea. over a long period of time this could happen. also the "being smarter than matchmaking " tips you listed are more of a common practice that nearly everyone uses..
You’ve stated with “MMR spiral” is that; paraphrasing, your mmr will continue to lower to the point where matchmaking will deliberately place you on the worse team, essentially creating an “mmr hell” for the player.
Lets say a player gets extremely unlucky and loses 7 games straight. His 8th game is not going to be worse than any of his previous 7 games simply because he’s on a losing streak. He has just as good of a chance to be the highest mmr player on the next team than being lowest mmr player. Likewise, he also has the same chance to be placed on a higher team mmr averaged than the other.
The only thing that changes is the player pool when a player enters a new 15 pip +/- range. If you lower your pip range, you’ll no doubt play with lesser skilled players but the mmr algorithm & matchmaking that sets the teams up will always remain the same. Mmr is so inaccurate that the number difference between two individual players are barely noticeable. OR they’re very different, it’s why you’re getting so many blowouts. It’s why Anet (the player base) wanted a Division system because the skill difference of Diamond players over Amber players is like night and day compared to a pure mmr system.
It’s entirely Anet’s fault for not making a smarter matchmaking algorithm (what my links were referring to.) if they did, mmr would be more accurate because games would be more balanced in the long run (80+ games).
aka FalseLights
Rank: Top 250 since Season 2
#5 best gerdien in wurld
Rank: Top 250 since Season 2
#5 best gerdien in wurld
I have to disagree for a few reasons.
1- The skill range in this game is vastly different. I have a friend who is in sapphire right now and he is destroying people in there with thief in 1 vs 1 and even at times winning 1 vs 2. Yet he is super frustrated about losing these games. I brought him into legendary with me and 1 other player who played shout ele who is also in sapphire. We went 1-2 vs the diamonds/legendarys we faced. So now for me to move forward i have to find 4 other players who play at the same time as me/ who i get along with/ and who want to que up together with just to find my correct MMR.
2- Yes ESL level players and above average players will lose sometimes. Yet i would like to point out that when i was getting into legendary. I was stuck in T7 diamond for a good 4-5 days. 1 day i kept seeing tarcis and trackstar on the other team after i would win 1. I didnt win 1 game against them and we lost big everytime. I made a thread about it because when i had a match against zoose. I knew he was the better player and he made the big play at the end to win the game.
3- We had a solo que, the best players in the game then are still the best players in the game now. Seriously why do people think that if there was a solo que that they have a better chance? If you see these guys streaming, for the most part they are solo queing. Heck Helselth in season 1 showed his wins/losses on the top right corner with him solo/duo queing during the season.
Now dont get me wrong, i dont think the MM is all that fair. I find it could be better. I simply believe that having a league system based around PiPs is one of the worst ideas ever. Season 2 was horrible when i saw 2-3 ESL players on my team and then the other team was a bunch of nobodys and the score was 500-0. That was a terrible system. I think they should really look at the % on what team should win.
Nothing worse then players losing PiPs when they had a 25% chance to win a match, yet they dont get to see which team was suppose to win.
Lets say a player gets extremely unlucky and loses 7 games straight. His 8th game is not going to be worse than any of his previous 7 games simply because he’s on a losing streak. He has just as good of a chance to be the highest mmr player on the next team than being lowest mmr player. Likewise, he also has the same chance to be placed on a higher team mmr averaged than the other.
Untrue. The chance will depend on how big a pool of available players below him is compared to those above him. The further you shift away from the average MMR, the more likely the system is to consistently put you on the same (winning/losing) side.
It’s why Anet (the player base) wanted a Division system because the skill difference of Diamond players over Amber players is like night and day compared to a pure mmr system.
You might think so, and then you see people in higher divisions, that would be considered baddies even in amber…
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
The gane is based on Team Play and Teams, then the game is based on Premades.
All the other things are to try to make a little balance on random casual players.
But there’s a large amount of things that can go wrong with the MM:
1) can’t find players of the same levels fast enough, then pull together higher and/or lower ranks to make the wait acceptable.
2) You’re 3 friends of different levels that want to play together and then the MM go crazy to find a way to make you able to fight with and against players of your same levels, frequently making you fight against player of higher level why the reference is teh higher classification of the players you’re with.
3) You find a premade but is hard/impossible to balance a premade against a 2-3 player + pugs or even against full pugs
4) you find players of your same or higher level but that are there why they’re lucky and play much more time than you but they’re bad and don’t follow the team, making you lose. And more and more things related to the players.
There’s only 3 things that ANet can do to make the game a little more balanced:
1) Make Solo queue and Team queue separated, with Different Arenas and Different Tournaments. Ranked both for Solo and for Team. And forcing them to be single plauyers or full teams to join the tournaments. teams of 2-3-4 players are not allowed to enter.
2) maker that all the classes have to be Different, both in the Teams and in the MM system of the solo, making impossible the class stacking of OP classes.
3) if not possible, make that the teams have to be of different classes, both if they’re solo, 2-3-4, or a full team, but the MM had to force them to be all different classes.
This way a lot of things are fixed without any pain.
But ANet will never do that.