Made you click huh?
Baiting Title aside, I wanted to take a step back away from the current E-Drama around the vast majority of players having a reality crisis about where they actually stand in SPvP and talk about an actual issue that’s relevant to PvP and Balance as a whole.
If you couldn’t tell from the title, I want to talk to you guys about Vengeance and WHY IS THIS STILL A THING?
It’s been years, there have been slight changes to it to help ‘balance’ it here and there. But the skill itself is woefully outdated and awful right this second. The niche cases where it can be used will punish the Warrior 75% of the time, and the trait placement to only remove this penalty in these niche cases shares the same line as Warrior’s Sprint…which means nobody runs Vengeful Return.
From a Warrior Perspective, from a PvP balance perspective, from a down-state perspective this one skill manages to hit all the asinine design decisions from this game’s launch at the same time! It’ll be like if a Pro streamed Portal-playing his own lord at Foefire, it’s that stupid!
But, I believe the ‘spirit’ around the ability needs to stay intact. The skill itself can pull off some amazing upsets, but the RNG around the untraited skill makes the Warrior feel awful even if he killed the entire enemy team without a rally proc, it makes the enemy feel awful if it DOES proc because they lost against RNG, and it is used SO little compared to every other downstate skill. There are some pretty bad downstate skills out there, but every other profession has a theme to their downstate which requires a bit of thought and strategy. Warrior’s got a hammer it pulled from who knows where and a bunch of rocks.
Here’s my suggestion,
Vengeance: Rally and fighting for your life! Rapidly loses life over time until an enemy is killed. Healing received is drastically reduced.
Vengeance lasts until you defeat a foe, it is now a VERY PAINFUL DEBUFF that after 1 second while you rally, you lose a percentage of your health every second. Personally? 10% per second. Any Healing you receive as the Vengeance Warrior is cut in half, and stacks additively with poison (meaning 83% healing reduction, yep).
The current duration of the Vengeance is 15 seconds relying on an RNG rally proc. I’ve now turned it into around 6 seconds without support but ZERO rally RNG, any kill, debuff goes bye-bye.
Let’s take it a bit further, that trait about the rally chance? Garbage, we could look into tossing another trait in there or my rework would be:
Vengeful Return: Vengeance now recovers you for 100% of your life upon activation.
Untraited Vengeance has you around 50% life, a traited Vengeance has you come back at full to live longer and perhaps really turn the fight around. It’s probably not going to be the same as the current 15s duration, but it’ll be close.
So why are these changes cool? Because the Warrior already has perhaps one of the weakest 1 and 2 downstate skills in the game, and the profession 3 skills are at least potent. And this change would bring the Warrior 3 skill in line with others, likely giving you a few more seconds extra time, or in this case making players definitely finish the Warrior off before he gets a chance to activate it.
There’s also the possibility you can try supporting the Warrior’s rapidly diminishing health with healing, but that’s quite a lot with that debuff active. It creates more consistent scenarios for downstate with Warrior, and it doesn’t distract from how most players could handle one to begin with, kiting and CC!
Let me know what you think, but you can’t honestly tell me this relic of a skill isn’t in need of help.
You forget that bringing warrior in downstate on first place takes like 3 years (due to all passives and utilities) and all resources and you suggest to prolong that time?….
You forget that bringing warrior in downstate on first place takes like 3 years (due to all passives and utilities) and all resources and you suggest to prolong that time?….
Excusing your internal bias towards Warriors for a moment, is there any justification for a mechanic with an effect of rally or defeat, built around RNG rather than being controlled?
I actually agree with OP… to a certain degree.
IMO an easier fix would be to simply make Vengeful Return baseline minus the increased HP and endurance gain on rally, then rework Vengeful Return.
I actually agree with OP… to a certain degree.
IMO an easier fix would be to simply make Vengeful Return baseline minus the increased HP and endurance gain on rally, then rework Vengeful Return.
I considered that, but it would be too strong. Currently Vengeance lasts 15 seconds. That’s way too long for something that mimics downstate, it would win a lot of scenarios with multiple downed folks.
My solution still gives enemies plenty of options, such as kiting the Warrior’s health out like before. I believe the health degen is particularly useful here.
I forgot to add, I chose my words carefully about this degen not being damage so the Warrior can’t immune the damage or a Rebound saving the Warrior. It’s strictly a ‘loss in health’.
I actually agree with OP… to a certain degree.
IMO an easier fix would be to simply make Vengeful Return baseline minus the increased HP and endurance gain on rally, then rework Vengeful Return.
I considered that, but it would be too strong. Currently Vengeance lasts 15 seconds. That’s way too long for something that mimics downstate, it would win a lot of scenarios with multiple downed folks.
My solution still gives enemies plenty of options, such as kiting the Warrior’s health out like before. I believe the health degen is particularly useful here.
I forgot to add, I chose my words carefully about this degen not being damage so the Warrior can’t immune the damage or a Rebound saving the Warrior. It’s strictly a ‘loss in health’.
I do not see it as being too strong. Making Vengeful Return baseline merely removes the RNG aspect of Vengeance and changes nothing else. All existing ways to counter it will still work. So I personally do not see any issues.
Why not just remove the chance to full-revive from a Vengeance kill without the trait?
Even better, skillsplit here so that PvP/WvW is 0/100% and PvE is unchanged.
You’re complaining about one of the most useful downstate skills? If you’re down you’re probably either dead or a burden to your team if it happens too often. So get up and drop all your skills on the enemy team and die. I see no problem here you can time it and change the fight for your team and get a full rally.
You’re complaining about one of the most useful downstate skills? If you’re down you’re probably either dead or a burden to your team if it happens too often. So get up and drop all your skills on the enemy team and die. I see no problem here you can time it and change the fight for your team and get a full rally.
Completely agree, esp with the either dead or a burden aspect. However I think OP’s main issue is the RNG aspect of the rally.
OP’s proposed ‘fix’ though, is a lil far fetched.
Made you click huh?
It’ll be like if a Pro streamed Portal-playing his own lord at Foefire, it’s that stupid!
This alone was worth the price of admission XD
IMO they should remove the whole rally mechanic and all that and replacing the skill with with a short-term rampage revive. Thinking something along the lines of Sion’s passive from League of Legends, where upon death he rezzes with full HP but can only auto attack, but those attacks are massively buffed. Meanwhile health degens at a rapid rate and can be prodded further with attacks/abilities. In this case, the warrior will revive with full or increased HP and the rampage toolbar, no utilities, no heal, no elite. Just massively buffed attacks with the utilities of the rampage elite, but health draining at an exceptional rate (1-3k per second or 5-7% of max HP) giving the warrior a hard time limit and increased pressure aside from the opponents chipping away at them already.
However, when compared to, basically every other downed skill 3 (aside from maybe ranger skill 3) this would be massively overpowered. So secondary though, maybe the warrior can drop a random banner or a specific banner for nearby allies.
Personally something I would love to see with the game is racial skills in downed state, perhaps replacing the downed 3 skill since those are always such weird skills that you rarely ever can get off. Could give some reason to pick certain races for certain classes or certain situations. These could perhaps include a secondary CC ability to help you survive, or increased healing, or something that will essentially keep you alive.
Just tossing out ideas for these.
Human: Summons an avatar of Dwayna to help you heal. (similar to ranger downed 3)
Norn: Assumes Bear Form (Anyone else remember that Norn lore wise and through racial abilities can transform? Because I rarely remember that) which increases toughness significantly, perhaps transforms the downed 2 skill into a maul-type skill which stuns.
Asura: drops a large defensive golem which stuns on landing and forms a reflective barrier (similar to guardian’s revive skill)
Charr: Calls reinforcements from the legion you chose to side with during character creation. These could all effectively do the same thing or maybe even have some differences based on the legion itself. But maybe it summons 2 “minions” to help fight whoever is around. If OOC maybe they can even help you res?
Sylvari: A large healing aoe, perhaps cripples or immobilizes enemies in the area as well. Not sure what to do there that fits balance and flavor wise as I don’t like vegetables, but you get what I’m driving at.
Just some random loritab-filled thoughts on downed skills.
You’re complaining about one of the most useful downstate skills? If you’re down you’re probably either dead or a burden to your team if it happens too often. So get up and drop all your skills on the enemy team and die. I see no problem here you can time it and change the fight for your team and get a full rally.
Oh yes, Vengeance is used all the time much like Symbol of Judgement or Lick Wounds. Clearly I missed the competitive level plays where every warrior was popping Vengeance when they could to turn around fights.
You do realize a Vengeanced Warrior doesn’t have point contestion with this skill right? If the Warrior downs first or even if the Warrior goes into downstate shortly after his opponent did, popping Vengeance actually hurts you because even if you stomp you will the majority of the time, not get the rally proc, and you effectively die on top of a point that you probably allowed the enemy to decap or full cap. And you spawn LATER, which is the in-game equivalent to downing yourself outside a point.
I want you to do me a favor, list at least one scenario where even if you pop Vengeance you are likely to make it useful for once whether you rally proc or not.
Back to Balian, sorry for not combining posts, but with all due respect if your solution was implemented Warriors would have even more 1v1 potential if they can pull off Vengeance. It would be easy for me to Vengeance and either stomp or cleave for the free rally with all that time, I think it needs to be shorter in order to make the Warrior carefully consider when and if to pop the skill.
Bump….
…For Great Justice!
People keep recharging skills, traits, sigils and weapon swap while in downed state. So when warriors do vengeance its from a position that is better than the person who put them there.
That same reasoning can be applied to any profession that is downed, with exception if I were to think about it certain builds that gain an effect or access to an ability while staying in a certain ‘state’ like Tempest’s Attunements for Overloads.
The only difference is, Vengeance is statistically likely to outright kill the Warrior and causes several disadvantaged cases. The closest related profession in terms of down-state inferiority is Rev as although the displacement with the 2 skill is slightly better than Warrior, the change to how slow and quickness affect stomps puts the 1 skill on Rev just as pointless as the Warrior’s Rocks. Vengeful Blast, the Rev Downed State 3, is an AoE nuke pure and simple, but that at least isn’t going to help the revenant kill his/herself or cause Point Cap Negation.
um…except warriors don’t need to be rezed to access all their stuff if they can last long enough to vengeance.
um…except warriors don’t need to be rezed to access all their stuff if they can last long enough to vengeance.
If you are aiming to Vengeance all the time as a Warrior every time you get downed, you deserve to stay in Bronze. I’ve already made it painfully clear why the access to skills doesn’t matter, no other profession’s skill 3 makes them do worse in the long run like Warrior’s can.
um…except warriors don’t need to be rezed to access all their stuff if they can last long enough to vengeance.
If you are aiming to Vengeance all the time as a Warrior every time you get downed, you deserve to stay in Bronze. I’ve already made it painfully clear why the access to skills doesn’t matter, no other profession’s skill 3 makes them do worse in the long run like Warrior’s can.
so remove vengeance for something more basic like an unblockable, blind removing, stability stripping aoe kd.
Aftershock:
Remove stability from foes and cause knockdown.
targets:5
radius:450
knockdown: 2 sec
unblockable
removes:blind
um…except warriors don’t need to be rezed to access all their stuff if they can last long enough to vengeance.
If you are aiming to Vengeance all the time as a Warrior every time you get downed, you deserve to stay in Bronze. I’ve already made it painfully clear why the access to skills doesn’t matter, no other profession’s skill 3 makes them do worse in the long run like Warrior’s can.
so remove vengeance for something more basic like an unblockable, blind removing, stability stripping aoe kd.
Aftershock:
Remove stability from foes and cause knockdown.
targets:5
radius:450
knockdown: 2 sec
unblockable
removes:blind
Top troll 10/10.
Anyone else with obviously broken suggestions?
um…except warriors don’t need to be rezed to access all their stuff if they can last long enough to vengeance.
If you are aiming to Vengeance all the time as a Warrior every time you get downed, you deserve to stay in Bronze. I’ve already made it painfully clear why the access to skills doesn’t matter, no other profession’s skill 3 makes them do worse in the long run like Warrior’s can.
so remove vengeance for something more basic like an unblockable, blind removing, stability stripping aoe kd.
Aftershock:
Remove stability from foes and cause knockdown.
targets:5
radius:450
knockdown: 2 sec
unblockable
removes:blindTop troll 10/10.
Anyone else with obviously broken suggestions?
Or anyone with an actual good suggestion?
um…except warriors don’t need to be rezed to access all their stuff if they can last long enough to vengeance.
If you are aiming to Vengeance all the time as a Warrior every time you get downed, you deserve to stay in Bronze. I’ve already made it painfully clear why the access to skills doesn’t matter, no other profession’s skill 3 makes them do worse in the long run like Warrior’s can.
so remove vengeance for something more basic like an unblockable, blind removing, stability stripping aoe kd.
Aftershock:
Remove stability from foes and cause knockdown.
targets:5
radius:450
knockdown: 2 sec
unblockable
removes:blindTop troll 10/10.
Anyone else with obviously broken suggestions?
Or anyone with an actual good suggestion?
Mind explaining what is the problem with my suggestion?
Or explaining why you think the current 3 skill is fair compared to other professions?
You have simply dodged all of it at this point.
um…except warriors don’t need to be rezed to access all their stuff if they can last long enough to vengeance.
If you are aiming to Vengeance all the time as a Warrior every time you get downed, you deserve to stay in Bronze. I’ve already made it painfully clear why the access to skills doesn’t matter, no other profession’s skill 3 makes them do worse in the long run like Warrior’s can.
so remove vengeance for something more basic like an unblockable, blind removing, stability stripping aoe kd.
Aftershock:
Remove stability from foes and cause knockdown.
targets:5
radius:450
knockdown: 2 sec
unblockable
removes:blindTop troll 10/10.
Anyone else with obviously broken suggestions?
Or anyone with an actual good suggestion?
Mind explaining what is the problem with my suggestion?
Or explaining why you think the current 3 skill is fair compared to other professions?
You have simply dodged all of it at this point.
Your suggestion takes a warrior who is at 1% health coming up with recharged skills blowing everything to chop someone down who is at a disadvantage and getting easy rally. Even if the warrior doesn’t actually attack anyone, if some one gets a kill he rallies. Like what’s hard to understand how hard-preventing a stomp for an extra 6 seconds isn’t going to turn out well. People are already carried by downed state as is.
Vengeance is wonky in its nature. I don’t really think there is a balance to it as it can indeed be very disappointing or very upsetting. Making it always useful is nice and all but look at just how rediculous it would be in comparison to everyone else’s 3 skill if it was. I don’t think anyone’s 3 skill gives them an extra 6 seconds of life while also making them a serious threat.
If they actually feel the need to rebalance vengeance then they should just scrap it for a new skill that can be balanced.
Your suggestion takes a warrior who is at 1% health coming up with recharged skills blowing everything to chop someone down who is at a disadvantage and getting easy rally. Even if the warrior doesn’t actually attack anyone, if some one gets a kill he rallies. Like what’s hard to understand how hard-preventing a stomp for an extra 6 seconds isn’t going to turn out well. People are already carried by downed state as is.
Vengeance is wonky in its nature. I don’t really think there is a balance to it as it can indeed be very disappointing or very upsetting. Making it always useful is nice and all but look at just how rediculous it would be in comparison to everyone else’s 3 skill if it was. I don’t think anyone’s 3 skill gives them an extra 6 seconds of life while also making them a serious threat.
If they actually feel the need to rebalance vengeance then they should just scrap it for a new skill that can be balanced.
Thank you for properly responding. It is very important that you lay your counter-arguments clear, not everyone is posting arbitrary nonsense. There are particular reasons why I make the new Vengeance in such a manner.
Now, let’s propose your first statement that said Warrior undergoing Veng is going to attempt to pop everything at 1% to survive. The cooldowns he pops at this stage will carry into his next respawn, current balancing has many of the common utilities at 30+ second cooldowns MEANING there’s a gambit to the Warrior trying to Stance-dance hoping for a rally.
This would be in the Warrior’s favor IF said Warrior could mitigate the damage from the revamped Vengeance I suggested. That’s not true. If you want some basic math a Warrior with 20k life in my system untraited Vengeances and rallies to 10k, and takes 2000 loss in health every second after the first second. Endure Pain won’t stop this, Berserker Stance won’t stop this, there is no mechanic in this game that would stop this health degen while the Vengeance debuff is on the Warrior. Furthermore all healing is reduced by 50%, Sustain in this state is reduced by a flat 50% ALONE unless the Warrior gets a credit for a rally.
I was being generous with 6 seconds, that implies the Warrior is in combat taking no heat after the first second. That 2000 damage per second per my example of a 20k health Warrior is on top of any damage the enemy team decides to do to the Vengeance Warrior.
The Warrior will last less than a second popping the revamped skill under all the pressure in say a 4v4, downed state health is triple the maximum health after all if you weren’t aware. Ultimately, the only point both you and I agree on is that Vengeance as it currently is, is broken beyond belief.
If you want, I can elaborate more on the perks of my proposition in keeping in the same spirit as the current Vengeance, as right now Warrior has the weakest 1 and 2 downed state skills in the game.
I’m not a fan of downed state. I’m even less of a fan of downed state skills that flatout prevent stomping.
I just can’t understand the want to improve a mode that supports tryhards, that forces players to put themselves in complete volunerability to spike and gives downed state skills that 100% won’t even allow stomping. And to make things more embarrassing, have downed state bars on some classes that are so bad that it’s just the same to lay there and die.
Honest I don’t completely agree with removing down state 100% or gankers will be nuts in modes like wvw (another consideration) but I also think downed state skills should be either culled in effect or standardized for all 9 professions.
Sick of,
Vapor form
Shadow escape/smoke bomb
Deception
And with your proposed change I’d dislike vengeance the same/more.
The one thing I like about your change is the reduction from 15 to 6 seconds so I don’t need to dance around so long because I didn’t have a safe stomp. That alone begs the question of what is the point of this change at all then? I see it being more useful in pve and wvw zerging with your changes. Is the change really just a way to trim a noobs uselessness from 15sec to 6sec while randomly rewarding them with 100% rally chance for being a lucky noob?
That’s a fair stance. Elementalists, thieves and mesmers have their best downed abilities at delaying the inevitable as soon as they get downed. And although elementalist’s vapor form is the best for positioning yourself for a good rally or forcing enemies off the node, I believe thief is probably the worst offender for what you describe as not only can the thief teleport away during your first stop, it’s insanely likely the thief will stealth on your second attempt.
These are the classes most would rather just cleave down, especially thief, but I can see the fear with wanting to make Warrior not have the same issue.
The only thing I can say for certain is that Warrior is uniquely different from these other professions as his only delay tactic to stopping a stomp for the cooldown for Vengeance to come up, is a 1 second projectile stun with a major tell. The projectile part of this attack makes it one of the most defended against attacks in the game, literally anything can stop it and you can still safely stomp the warrior with plenty of time left.
Under that notion, I think the Warrior case is quite different, it can’t do the same things Elementalists, Thieves and Mesmers can. And especially since Warrior has all these flaws during downstate compared to the potent abilities you see from the three professions you described, do I want Warriors to have a more consistent downstate ability they can rely on always if they somehow managed to stay in downstate for that long.
Warriors are the weakest of the professions who can’t truly delay their downstate such as Guardians and Necromancers, and their 3 ability is cripplingly awful as of right now.
The only issue I can see with this is in a 1v1 situation where me and the warrior down each other at the same time. In that situation, it would be an automatic win for the Warrior every time.
Outside of that, I don’t see a problem with your suggestions OP. It’s true, Warrior downstate 2 skill is insanely weak. You can currently get a safe stomp on a warrior by simply body blocking, reflects, stability, blind, stealth, or invuln. It has more counters than any other downstate 2 skill I believe, unless Rev’s is also a projectile.
Anyways, point being is that it is insanely easy to secure a stomp on a Warrior. This reworked Vengeance skill would take away the rng aspect of it, which is always a good thing, and also reduce the amount of time you have to deal with the Warrior when he pops Vengeance. I like it.
The only issue I can see with this is in a 1v1 situation where me and the warrior down each other at the same time. In that situation, it would be an automatic win for the Warrior every time.
Outside of that, I don’t see a problem with your suggestions OP. It’s true, Warrior downstate 2 skill is insanely weak. You can currently get a safe stomp on a warrior by simply body blocking, reflects, stability, blind, stealth, or invuln. It has more counters than any other downstate 2 skill I believe, unless Rev’s is also a projectile.
Anyways, point being is that it is insanely easy to secure a stomp on a Warrior. This reworked Vengeance skill would take away the rng aspect of it, which is always a good thing, and also reduce the amount of time you have to deal with the Warrior when he pops Vengeance. I like it.
My thought is that the reworked has a few good matchups, such as Necro or Guardian potentially. But Stomps have a long channel, a Warrior will only have one shot at the stomp, a thief will probably win even if it goes to Vengeance as the Warrior 1 skill does so little damage in down-state, and the Thief simply needs to use his skills to avoid getting cleaved or stomped for a few seconds.
ALTHOUGH, I will say that if the Warrior traits for the revamped Veng Trait, the minor trait’s purpose in giving the Warrior more time effectively guarantees a victory in all the downstate 1v1s. That’s a neat little thing to think about if a Warrior has to choose between that capability and Warrior’s Sprint. We are also considering the fact there are two downed opponents on a point in an SPvP game, we haven’t factored in a rotation from a teammate or enemy yet. Both players being downed and fighting in downstate isn’t a common occurrence.
I’m looking at the bigger picture of increasing the depth of Warrior while at the same time removing a much despised RNG element no one likes.
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