Guild Wars 2

Can we please have 1 clean, straight-forward discussion about the Warrior in sPvP?
thank you. I’m tired of people saying “Oh, you just need to learn the class”

*NOTE I am an experienced player and have put time into “learning the class”
This is NOT a discussion about PvE, or WvW, this is sPvP
Also, please read the ENTIRE article if you wish to comment. Thx!

Is the Warrior underpowered?
From what I seem to understand, people who play warrior constantly say yes, people who play other classes constantly say no, you just need to “learn to play the class”.

But why hasn’t anyone “learned” to play the class yet? Where is the build that can 1v1 thieves and mesmers yet still be able to hold out in drawn out group fights? Where’s the build that isn’t a glass cannon or a useless shout healer with no dps whatsoever.
_______________________________________
At the moment, I’ve tried every build that’s out there, I mean it. The most successful I’ve been with is the Hammer Greatsword build, using the greatsword to build up might and burst damage and switching to CC. It’s been ok. I’m able to 1v1 thieves and mesmers, but in group fights I’m useless.

Here’s the problem:
Every class has the versatility to counter a straight up melee class. At the moment, anyone experienced player knows that a ranged warrior is NOT a viable option, which forces Warriors to go duel melee. The Warrior has no skills or utility to evade attacks, with exception to the Signet of Stamina, which is constantly used to counter conditions. So how do you solve this? Crowd Control. Hammer. Problem? Skill 4 is stationary and can be dodged easily, Skill 5 can be interrupted easily and has a long cooldown. Skill 2 is useless b/c classes can still stun/chill/knockdown you. Skill 3 is also stationary and only causes cripple. Burst skill is great.

So the hammer is ok for CC, but it creates a lack of dps. Bleeding atm is not reliable because 1 condition removal removes the entire stack, so swords are out. Shield is out b/c although skill 5 is great in unison with the trait to receive might, you need dps, not a CC Tank with none at all. So that leaves Axe/Axe and Greatsword. What’s the problem now, 100b and skill 5 for axe are easily dodged. A melee Warrior is built around staying in someones face all the time and other classes are built to kite that Warrior ALL the time. It’s like expecting scissors to beat rock.

Other classes are built to counter and evade the build that Warriors are forced to play due to imbalances in the game
_____________________________________________

I know it kind of turned into a rant, but w/e what do you guys think? I just want to be able to play a class that can be stacked against the thief and mesmer in terms of usefulness for the team. Instead of saying “You need to learn to play the class” …
TELL ME HOW, because if no one has figured out the Warrior when it seems everyone has figured out everyone other class, there is clearly a problem. Don’t tell me I’m doing something wrong and not be able to tell me how to improve.

Please, if you comment and haven’t played Warrior regularly in sPvP yet, please keep that in mind and don’t make careless comments.

i play a shouts (heal) gs/rifle war. i wouldn’t say the dps is superb, but short of hard bunkers, i don’t find myself not being able to kill people. that said, im running permanent fury and basically permanent 11 stacks of might. i saw a hammer/longbow build the other day that was wrecking my sword/dagger thief, but on anything other than my thief, i wouldn’t see it being a problem. outside of having to use frenzy or going all glass cannon axe/axe or glass cannon rifle (which wouldn’t win a 1v1), i do agree with you that warriors aren’t that overwhelming. However, though I wouldn’t say they’re weak, I don’t have anyone openly crying about my warrior being op either.

I guess you could say warriors are right where other classes need to be, balance-wise.

Idk, when GW2 first came out, I think ANet overreacted to all the double eviscerate combo’s and everything and just over-nerfed the class entirely… All burst skills except the hammer’s is useless now. the GS burst skill is at 3 adrenaline, you get a 20% crit chance… horrible.

I remember a video displaying the Warrior’s Longbow in comparison to the Ranger’s longbow. I remember the dev saying that the Warrior’s skill set should feel more powerful while the Ranger’s was more versatile. I just never feel powerful playing Warrior unless it’s a 1v1.

Warrior primary. 600+ hours, or however many I have now.

Yes and no. Obviously newbies will rant about HB, or complain about how a Warrior used Vengeance one time. Experienced players may even look at our most min-maxed builds and decide, based on those one or two kinds of players, that the whole class is fine.

I’ll tell you now, most of the problem with the class isn’t that we’re underpowered. It’s a problem with the concept of melee in the entire game. It’s an issue both with ANet trying to remove tanking from the game and an issue with CCs dominating gameplay without a dedicated healer to remove conditions on a regular basis.

I think ANet is basing too much of their ideas off GW1, yet not understanding how some of them worked. Every team had more than one monk, and usually one was a Restore Condition monk in PvP. That monk could essentially get rid of all your conditions every other cast, which enabled you, a melee player, to weave in and out of the front lines, trying to disrupt and spike backline players.

Now look to GW2. There is no direct healing. There’s certainly not any direct condition removal. As a result, the Warrior (or any melee-centric build) has to support itself. The Warrior doesn’t have any native condition removal. Just a 45 recharge signet that doesn’t understand that you need sustained minor condition removal, not spike condition removal. And Shake It Off, which obviously everyone uses. This is also why everyone runs healing shouts. It’s not necessarily for the healing, but just because it synergizes well with the point of the build – soldier runes. These alone enable a Warrior to do his job, as there’s not enough native condition negation for you to be a threat to anyone.

If – and only if – Warriors had far more innate condition removal, and not just from one or two sources for one or two builds, but all melee builds, then I imagine you’d find that Warriors are very balanced right now, and not too weak.

Obviously some secondary skills are worthless, because they either focus on adrenaline gain we neither need nor want (burst is worthless) or they’re just worse options for better skills. It’s a class that needs a lot of work, but don’t they all?

So short answer: yeah, Warriors are weak. But because of one flaw in the whole game design, which is a relic of early alphas.

I believe warriors need a tuneup vs conditions and on banners.

Chilled, Cripple, and Immo destroy nearly all builds especially Axe. They have no good ways to cure conditions either and usually must trait for removing immo or cripple on heal or take a 45 sec signet. Evis may also need a look at in my opinion cause I tend to get a “miss” even though I could pretty much see the opponent touch the axe.

On the other side, Haste needs to be looked at if not Hundred Blades itself.

Oracle Fefe.5078:

I believe warriors need a tuneup vs conditions and on banners.

Chilled, Cripple, and Immo destroy nearly all builds especially Axe. They have no good ways to cure conditions either and usually must trait for removing immo or cripple on heal or take a 45 sec signet. Evis may also need a look at in my opinion cause I tend to get a “miss” even though I could pretty much see the opponent touch the axe.

On the other side, Haste needs to be looked at if not Hundred Blades itself.

Use a Warhorn ?

Greatsword + axe/shield + bull rush with “movement breaks immobilize” + “last stand” traits and I’m almost never rooted. The most annoying thing that happens to me is being crippled, but I’d feel very overpowered if some professions couldn’t cripple me. My only real issues are thieves killing me within one basilisk stun, and bunkers with what feels like endless full heals who can survive through an unmitigated perfect burst combo. I’d rather see thieves and bunkers nerfed than warriors buffed.

Well, I’m glad to see that I’m not alone, and Plague summed it up rather well. I wouldn’t mind an all melee warrior as long as they did it well. Thanks for the feedback guys. I just hope ANet buffs the warrior or nerfs other classes.

Nothing can be done against basilisk without a stun breaker, and when you regain control of your character to pop whatever other defensive ability you have it’s already too late. This does not happen with any other glass canon professions. I usually manage to reactively mitigate at least half the damage from mesmers trying to burst me or other warriors trying to HB me so these fights tend to be a lot more balanced. Thief basilisk + burst combo is simply not counterable without a stun breaker. Being forced into selecting a utility slot ONLY because of thief damage is unacceptable. I can accept losing half my health because I choose to run without a stun breaker, but not 90%+ of my health at 22k hps with 20 points in defense traits.

Warriors are not underpowered
they just get kited around easily

Professor Munchies.8472:

Warriors are not underpowered
they just get kited around easily

Usually enemies can’t kite me. My GS has 2 gap closers and there’s always dodge roll to help close distance. I have a useful cripple and immobilize too. Worst case scenario i just pull out my rifle and start shooting. When my weapon switch recharges i close in for a rifle butt attack, switch to melee, and charge them (or if i’m using longbow immoblize them, switch, and go for a 100b)

Play axe mace build its beast i can hold my own just as well as any of my other classes.

The main problems warriors have is that all other classes abilities have been designed with some pve in mind, and since pve mobs are nearly all melee, these abilities revolve around avoiding melee damage/keeping distance/snaring off melee etc….

Since the only really effective warrior is melee (gtfo rifle/longbow..they’re a joke to face), all these abilities will have far more effect on you than on anyone else. There’s no other class that loses so much dps due to cripple/chilled/immobilise.

The number of conditions being applied in fights is relentless, so abilities like ‘shake it off’ which only remove 1 condition are pretty pointless.

Alot of the guardian abilities would have made more sense on the warrior, and guardians are better when defensive specced, and have more sustained damage when dps specced.

The adrenal abilities are all pretty poor, or easily negated by stability (which there seems to be tonnes of in pvp).

Also…playing a warrior myself, i’ve never ever lost to another warrior, no matter what spec they run. I’m a pretty average player, so this says what sort of state they’re in.

The main issue I see with your post OP is that you compare warrior with mesmer and thief and say warriors are UP in relation to them, or because you need a certain build to counter them (note this is the same for all other classes!). Those are the two most OP classes in the game, so if they are the main problem then warrior is in third spot after the 2 outliers. Sounds like warrior is in a good spot.

Also on kiting-warrior is one of the most mobile classes in the game, especially with greatsword.

devs said warrior is balanced and is where it should be. that said, its maybe not about warrior, but everything else. they need to balance other classes around warrior and its gonna be ok.

yes, warrior is underpowered compared to some classes atm.

PetricaKerempuh.7958:

devs said warrior is balanced and is where it should be. that said, its maybe not about warrior, but everything else. they need to balance other classes around warrior and its gonna be ok.

yes, warrior is underpowered compared to some classes atm.

I think this is the crux of the issue.

When the outlying builds get fixed to be on par with everything else, warrior will automatically gain relevance. That being said, we still have awful condition removal and it would be nice to see something on this front…

I have to disagree – warriors probably are the best balanced class at the moment. They can do melee dps, they can do range dps, they can play as a support, or they can be a tank. But on every build you have to have something that you become weak against.

Other classes are unbalanced, war does not need a buff or a nerf.

Wait, warriors can tank? I’ve never seen it. Range dps is also a joke, we have one skill that hits for 6k+ and it can easily be blocked. If you don’t roll some variation of glass cannon with a GS you’re pretty much screwed.

Now I didn’t start playing a Warrior because I want to tank, or to shoot from a range. I just want some other kitten weapons to be viable. The only melee option other than GS I’ve found good is Axe/Shield, and I only switch to that for the F1 skill, then I wait till swap is done cooldown so I can stun then switch back..

Danny.1594:

…. another one of these warrior needs a buff post?… god… my only character in this game is a warrior i only play a warrior… and i do not have any problems in pvp its really not that bad… and 1 v 1 a theif? you can do that… just requires a little skill again its not hard and you really havent tried all the builds please stop over exagerating… and yes i am gona say this

L2P

thiefs are really not that hard….

You’re one of the insert insult that I describe in my topic. You say it’s easy and never say WHY. All you’ve said is that 1v1’ing a thief is easy. I SAID THAT. I’m saying warriors have no condition removal, no evasion, lack of ranged dps, etc. Read the F’in article before you comment. Nothing you’ve said is constructive to this discussion.
_________________________________________________________
If the devs say that the warrior is where is should be, that worries me. They need far superior condition removal, or CC/evasion skills. Also, they have arguable the worst downed state skills and elite skills, and to the people saying ranged dps as a warrior is a viable option, I would honestly love to see the build, because as far as I know, there are none.

As a 100% warrior, I can say that besides our condition removal problems, unless you are running shouts, we are balanced. It’s things like super bunker ele, engi, and guards along with super spike thief and mes that give the game the appearance of lack of balance.

If these builds were toned down, notice I say toned down, not nerfed into uselessness, the game would be better as a whole balance wise.

BurrTheKing.8571:

As a 100% warrior, I can say that besides our condition removal problems, unless you are running shouts, we are balanced. It’s things like super bunker ele, engi, and guards along with super spike thief and mes that give the game the appearance of lack of balance.

If these builds were toned down, notice I say toned down, not nerfed into uselessness, the game would be better as a whole balance wise.

Still, Warrior burst skills were over-nerfed. The only viable burst skills are Hammer and Sword, but bleeding isn’t an option in sPvP because 1 condition removal removes all the bleeds. Personally I think bleeds should stack to 3 and count as additional conditions.

that would make caltrop and dagdag 3 spamming thieves unbeatable……. same with rangers who can stack like 20 bleeds in 4 seconds. loll i do think rangers need a buff but not like that. as for warriors, unless you’re running the same glass cannon gs axe/shield build that everyone else runs… you will probably only find some success with healing shouts… two builds…. real.

EchenSketch.9142:

BurrTheKing.8571:

As a 100% warrior, I can say that besides our condition removal problems, unless you are running shouts, we are balanced. It’s things like super bunker ele, engi, and guards along with super spike thief and mes that give the game the appearance of lack of balance.

If these builds were toned down, notice I say toned down, not nerfed into uselessness, the game would be better as a whole balance wise.

Still, Warrior burst skills were over-nerfed. The only viable burst skills are Hammer and Sword, but bleeding isn’t an option in sPvP because 1 condition removal removes all the bleeds. Personally I think bleeds should stack to 3 and count as additional conditions.

I think it’s more an issue that ranged and especially evasive classes have far too much condition removal. Melee obviously require them in order to actually be a threat to anyone. A part of that is also how incredibly powerful some condition based builds would be if condition removal was less common.

Any way you try rebalance it, it’s a very pervasive problem that has its roots in every part of the game.

I personally think the best solution to have would be that some conditional removal abilities remove everything, some remove only one full stack of a single condition (up to 25), and some remove up to five stacks, possibly across multiple condition types, and so on. The functionality of condition removal probably needs a little more depth than just getting rid of whole stacks some classes have to accumulate over a long period of time, while others can literally pile up to 25 in a couple of seconds.

Project Shrine Maiden.9623:

that would make caltrop and dagdag 3 spamming thieves unbeatable……. same with rangers who can stack like 20 bleeds in 4 seconds. loll i do think rangers need a buff but not like that. as for warriors, unless you’re running the same glass cannon gs axe/shield build that everyone else runs… you will probably only find some success with healing shouts… two builds…. real.

I’ve tried healing shouts, and it’s a support build. Using shouts for all your utilities is a waste. The Warrior is supposed to be a jack of all trades, but ranged weapons, sword, mace, etc are not viable options in sPvP

Melee Weapons:

GS
In relation to the builds for PvP, I have not seeing more than 10 a warrs not running 100b. I mean, 100b is a hell of skills…..if it hits, wish seems like it’s getting harder to do day by day xD
The whole Bull’s Charge+Frenzy+100b, is all about timing it right and luck. If the player sees u and dodges, u just waste 2 utilities, or if the player decides to dodge at that moment, u got unlucky.
And that is not including the block/blind/invulnerability/knockbacks that some classess do
Plus, u are going to get rabbits with that burst, forget about getting wolfs with that, they are going to bite back, and hard.

Hammer
Yes, sounds great, however, it’s not. The burst is the only great thing about it and that is it. Even the burst, in not wholly effective because u need to keep adrenaline levels up with traits and utilities. The weapon itself is slow, the skills are poor and easy to dodge, and damage is little and easy to shrug off.

Maze
I consider this weapon a team weapon. I mean, with the right build and co-ordinated team, u get get a lot done. U stun them, ur team burst them down, simple as that. otherwise, not viable to pug ur way in tournaments. And like the hammer, damage is easy to ignore.

Axe
Chop-Double Chop-Triple Chop! 2nd choice weapon when u r going all mighty glass cannon with 3.1k+ attack. Not much to say about the weapon, just that Eviscerate is another powerful skill, if it hits >.<

Shield
1 stun and 1 block. What does anet think about 25 and 30 seconds cool-down respectively? I accomplish little with the shield. By the time a thief is bursting me down, i have 1/4 health left, (or dead) or when eles/engis decide to turn up and toss me around like paper there is little I can do with a shield. I use it only when I’m in a real struggle for survival, otherwise, I block and hope for the best after that.

Overall:
Get real, if u step/immobilized/KD/stun and u get hit by the wells of a necro (or traps from rangers, or hell, any kind of condition spikes) , u r pretty much a dead warrior. And u know pretty well how u get to hate those rangers that just fill u up with bleeds and cripple u making u useless.
To the core, CC are the let down to warrs, since u can’t take them fast enough compared how fast they can put them back into u. And the best part, u can’t do NADA about the conditions xD every (pretty sure) single class has conditions or a build to stuck up conditions like crazy.

EchenSketch.9142:

Project Shrine Maiden.9623:

that would make caltrop and dagdag 3 spamming thieves unbeatable……. same with rangers who can stack like 20 bleeds in 4 seconds. loll i do think rangers need a buff but not like that. as for warriors, unless you’re running the same glass cannon gs axe/shield build that everyone else runs… you will probably only find some success with healing shouts… two builds…. real.

I’ve tried healing shouts, and it’s a support build. Using shouts for all your utilities is a waste. The Warrior is supposed to be a jack of all trades, but ranged weapons, sword, mace, etc are not viable options in sPvP

I disagree, if you are using Fear Me, FGJ, and SiO you have a self buff, a powerful CC that is good at setting up your hammer combo, and a stunbreak that doubles as condition removal. Traited you can use Fear Me every 64 sec which may seem long but it can totally screw a zerg over in a SPvP glory farm because that’s 4 seconds you aren’t attacking not to mention it spreads you out. Thief starting his combo? FM will make him helpless to all your CC. not to mention with soldiers it negates the condition removal problem. The bad thing is that this means abandoning a lot of dmg.

You’ll kill glass cannons easy, but other bunkers? Without help good luck, even as a “bunker war” you’re not a good at surviving.

EchenSketch.9142:

Project Shrine Maiden.9623:

that would make caltrop and dagdag 3 spamming thieves unbeatable……. same with rangers who can stack like 20 bleeds in 4 seconds. loll i do think rangers need a buff but not like that. as for warriors, unless you’re running the same glass cannon gs axe/shield build that everyone else runs… you will probably only find some success with healing shouts… two builds…. real.

I’ve tried healing shouts, and it’s a support build. Using shouts for all your utilities is a waste. The Warrior is supposed to be a jack of all trades, but ranged weapons, sword, mace, etc are not viable options in sPvP

It is if your primary weapons have no utility. Which means no Greatsword, no Axe, maybe Sword, but who honestly cares about Sword? It’s a condition-based weapon on a class that deals almost no condition damage, so it’s limited to its features as a mobility and immobilizing weapon.

This of course rules out the ever popular glass cannon builds of any Warrior spec. Why would you be using healing shouts for minor sustained healing on a build specced to deliver a single burst of damage, after all? So I imagine many players who don’t value anything but glass builds won’t ever find a use for healing shouts.

Of course, Fear Me I’ll point out is one of the best secondary utility skills in the game. The others? Not so much. They’re just generic skills that do what they say, and that’s all they do.

Plague.5329:

EchenSketch.9142:

Project Shrine Maiden.9623:

that would make caltrop and dagdag 3 spamming thieves unbeatable……. same with rangers who can stack like 20 bleeds in 4 seconds. loll i do think rangers need a buff but not like that. as for warriors, unless you’re running the same glass cannon gs axe/shield build that everyone else runs… you will probably only find some success with healing shouts… two builds…. real.

I’ve tried healing shouts, and it’s a support build. Using shouts for all your utilities is a waste. The Warrior is supposed to be a jack of all trades, but ranged weapons, sword, mace, etc are not viable options in sPvP

It is if your primary weapons have no utility. Which means no Greatsword, no Axe, maybe Sword, but who honestly cares about Sword? It’s a condition-based weapon on a class that deals almost no condition damage, so it’s limited to its features as a mobility and immobilizing weapon.

This of course rules out the ever popular glass cannon builds of any Warrior spec. Why would you be using healing shouts for minor sustained healing on a build specced to deliver a single burst of damage, after all? So I imagine many players who don’t value anything but glass builds won’t ever find a use for healing shouts.

Of course, Fear Me I’ll point out is one of the best secondary utility skills in the game. The others? Not so much. They’re just generic skills that do what they say, and that’s all they do.

Totally agree, which is why I think shout Warrior is not worth it, there are better builds out there

Also, how do you guys feel about the healing skills for Warrior?
I’m running adrenal surge atm b/c it just heals so kitten much, people make the arguemnet that mending is better b/c it removes 2 conditions, but AS healing more than Mending at just tier 1 adrenaline. 9k+ Health I believe at tier 3

Healing Signet is worthless in PvP, obviously. Since Warriors can’t tank in a traditional sense, and can’t really stealth out or have clones up or what have you to mitigate long enough for the sustained healing to do anything. The active heal then is so pathetic that the obvious point of the build is to never use your heal at all, as the passive healing actually beats the active healing over time. It has to be a dire emergency to actually use it (which there are plenty of in hotjoins), and even then it heals for so little that a single attack will render it worthless. A terrible, worthless skill in PvP. Absolutely awful. In PvE, though? Pretty kitten good, since you can avoid most hits there.

Mending is basically just a build for people who aren’t running healing shouts with solider runes. (By the way, the main point of healing shouts isn’t the healing, it’s the constant condition removal, which can’t be eclipsed by any other Warrior build in the game, by any stretch.) The actual two condition removal is fairly pointless, since the main problem with Warriors is the necessity of constant passive condition removal due to the abundance of immobilizes, freezes, cripples, blah blah blah. You aren’t going to burn your heal to get rid of a three second immobilize or freeze. So it’s basically just there as a counter to big condition stacks, which of course a healing shouts build destroys without even worrying about it.

Healing Surge is basically your only real choice. As Warriors don’t shrug damage very well, don’t mitigate very well, don’t evade very well and so on, you need to be able to heal back quite an amount in addition to having high toughness, if you aren’t running a glass build.

So I’d basically say Healing Surge is always better, on most sane builds. For trick glass cannons (read: HB Warriors), Mending, since you won’t be doing much real fighting anyway, just trying to spike people that aren’t paying much attention to you.

Well, I trust ANet in balancing this game. Most of the feedback is what I expected, which is great, except for the “Learn The Class” trolls.

Now if only you could use racial elites in PvP, i’d run Hounds of Balthazaar all day long