Guild Wars 2

The warrior form post.

For too long Warriors have been FORCED into the Discipline line in order to get Fast Hands. I dare you, name ONE viable build available to Warriors that doesn’t use this Specialization that doesn’t lose out to a build that does. Not going to happen. The way Warrior weapons work, swapping frequently is a must.

Making Fast Hands baseline would open Warriors to several new build options. We could replace Discipline With Tactics and take a Warhorn to make up for Warrior’s Sprint and Brawler’s Recovery. This would also let us bring Shouts and the Defense line but also be able to bring Strength or Arms so we can have damage and support.

While they are different classes, if Mesmer can get a GM like Illusionary Persona made baseline because it was such an important trait, I see no reason why Warrior can’t get a minor trait made baseline. Fast Hands is arguably more important to Warrior than IP is to Mesmer.

We should nerf warrior because it’s too stronk.

I think we always need to be really careful to give strong stuff baseline (see Mesmer status now).

I think FH baseline make sense for warrior but historically Anet has an amazing tendence to overbuff profession.

We see this with Necro Dhummfire, Warrior hambow for a long time and now with Mesmer.

I think the real problem is not the Warrior but other professions too strong right now.

philheat.3956:

I think we always need to be really carefull to give strong stuff baseline (see Mesmer status now).

I think FH baseline make sense for warrior but historically Anet has an amazing tendence to overbuff profession.

We see this with Necro Dhummfire, Warrior hambow for a long time and now with Mesmer.

I think the real problem is not the Warrior but other professions too strong right now.

Fast Hands not being baseline means Warriors are basically forced to have Discipline. The general power of the Defense line all but necessitates it as well.

In the past, we could spec just partly into the mandatory lines and put the other points elsewhere. It wasn’t uncommon to see Wars using 4 lines. That isn’t possible anymore. We can’t just go 15 into Discipline, we gotta go all the way. Defense will probably always be a most for many builds just because it’s a good line. Making FH baseline however means we could drop Disc for another line.

I for one am tired of having 2/3 of my Specs chosen for me.

Honestly in the past, only pve warrior went for 3 pts for FH and maximize power and critical line

Hambow and Shoutbow (the true warrior tanky pvp build) always went for the entire discipline line, to take Burst Mastery

Discipline line is not bad, it has really good traits.

Lets diminish the value of making a choice further and also hand out a baseline third weapon to swap to so it goes well with fast hands. A true master of arms should surely utilize 3 weapons in combat.

next on the menu: Cleansing Ire baseline! go go go

philheat.3956:

Honestly in the past, only pve warrior went for 3 pts for FH and maximize power and critical line

Hambow and Shoutbow (the true warrior tanky pvp build) always went for the entire discipline line, to take Burst Mastery

Discipline line is not bad, it has really good traits.

It’s not that Discipline is bad, it’s that we’re FORCED into taking it just to get one minor trait. I have several build ideas using Strength – Defense – Tactics or Arms – Defense – Tactics but none of them work right now because they don’t work without the fast weapon swaps. So many combos rely on fast swaps.

Oslaf Beinir.5842:

Lets diminish the value of making a choice further and also hand out a baseline third weapon to swap to so it goes well with fast hands. A true master of arms should surely utilize 3 weapons in combat.

next on the menu: Cleansing Ire baseline! go go go

Good job trying to distract from what we’re ACTUALLY asking for by bringing up something that no one here is asking for.

This isn’t about choice, because there’s not much choice to be made. Again, post me a build that is worth using that doesn’t use the Discipline line. Actually, for extra credit give me one that is viable and doesn’t use both Defense and Discipline.

Why do warriors need fast hands any more than guardians do?

Belial.9350:

Why do warriors need fast hands any more than guardians do?

Guardian weapons tend to have a very obvious and strong combo that is self contained on that weapon. For example:

On Greatsword: Binding Blade → Symbol of Wrath → Pull → Whirling Wrath → Leap of Faith

On Hammer: Zealots Embrace → Ring of Warding → Banish → Mighty Blow

Now, you can shorten this or slightly alter the order depending on the situation, but the fact remains that these combos are generally contained on the weapon.

On Warrior, you’re often dependent on cross-weapon combos to do damage. Outside of PvE or cleaving on a downed body, Hundred Blades will not connect on any decent player unless you set it up somehow with Skull Crack, Tremor, Backbreaker/Earthshaker, Pin down, or Bull’s Charge. Warrior’s only combo field comes from LB and being able to reliably swap to your other set after Combustive Shot to make use of the field is important. Oh, not to mention many autos on Warrior tend to be pretty bad.

That’s why weapon swapping is so important to Warriors.

I agree with this.

Mesmer were in a similar position with Illusionary Persona (Shatter effects occur on the mesmer as well). While not every Mesmer grabbed the trait, it was the one trait that not only allowed you to efficiently use other on-shatter traits (heal on-shatter, blind on-shatter, ECT) and made shatter mesmer so much more viable than every other spec. Alternatively, nearly every Mesmer had to take Deceptive Evasion (clone on dodge) just to have a stable build.

Once it was made baseline, Mesmer build diversity skyrocketed (though, of course, meta builds will still be limited to 1 or 2) without breaking the class in any way. Since this was a trait nearly every Mesmer had to take anyway, the only difference is that now we have he opportunity to experiment with different lines without feeling like our builds are only half-complete.

TL;DR Warriors need an improvement, and if fast hands is already practically mandatory as it is, then making it baseline would only help the class’s diversity without overpowering it.

(Take this with a grain of salt. I barely play Warrior but I understand the struggle.)

Fast Hands completely defines the warrior profession. You can’t balance both with and without it. ANet needs to either remove and re-balance the weapons or make Fast Hands baseline.

I vote remove it and make 5 second swap baseline across the game! 5 second just has a nicer flow, and everyone has combos between weapons, let’s behonest. Then balance accordingly!

Fast Hands won’t really change much and even if it happens it won’t break the profession.

I don’t believe Warrior is in a bad spot atm, it’s more of the fact that burn and blind spam just needs to be toned down in general. The Rampage nerf was somewhat a slap to the wrist but it was a good shave. People complaining about Warriors right now will legit look like Bronze ELO players.

Burning just needs to be toned down though, from ALL classes and the game will be fine.

So we making Soothing disruption, Cleansing water, EA, and EA baseline for ele too? cause I’m kittening sick of being arcane/water/X IDC if you think cele d/d is OP right now, (burning needs a nerf) we have no other viable specs because of these traits and our reliance on cantrips and protection to stay alive. It’s been this way since release.

At least you guys haven’t been stuck in the same build since release.

I’m all for making class mechanics that have become core to the class itself baseline (and obviously reworking/nerfing to compensate the gains) But it needs to either be done to all classes to account for power creep equally or each class individually tweaked (like mes)

ANet tried to make Arcane not so overwhelmingly powerful by making Elemental Attunement and Evasive Arcana mutually exclusive. By the elementalists cried a flood of tears. Elementalists have to realize that if they want variety, then the few extremely powerful traits and abilities need to be toned down in order to buff others.

Exedore.6320:

Elementalists have to realize that if they want variety, then the few extremely powerful traits and abilities need to be toned down in order to buff others.

Why? If they buff other line to reach the same level,dont see the reason why they should nerf water/arcane, because u will pick other line instead. As evry classe, we cant go 5 trait line.
Btw arcane/water will be always a must because we need them to survive, as lowest hp pool and light armor. So until we will have active difensive on weapon skills we will never leave them.
And we will never get active defense on weapon skill, outside burning speed evade, so..

BurrTheKing.8571:

philheat.3956:

Honestly in the past, only pve warrior went for 3 pts for FH and maximize power and critical line

Hambow and Shoutbow (the true warrior tanky pvp build) always went for the entire discipline line, to take Burst Mastery

Discipline line is not bad, it has really good traits.

It’s not that Discipline is bad, it’s that we’re FORCED into taking it just to get one minor trait. I have several build ideas using Strength – Defense – Tactics or Arms – Defense – Tactics but none of them work right now because they don’t work without the fast weapon swaps. So many combos rely on fast swaps.

Sounds like eles with the arcane line, which they are FORCED into for Elemental Attunement. Or thieves being FORCED into the Steal line to make Steal actually do something in PVP. Probably a lot of other classes also have this problem.

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

BurrTheKing.8571:

philheat.3956:

Honestly in the past, only pve warrior went for 3 pts for FH and maximize power and critical line

Hambow and Shoutbow (the true warrior tanky pvp build) always went for the entire discipline line, to take Burst Mastery

Discipline line is not bad, it has really good traits.

It’s not that Discipline is bad, it’s that we’re FORCED into taking it just to get one minor trait. I have several build ideas using Strength – Defense – Tactics or Arms – Defense – Tactics but none of them work right now because they don’t work without the fast weapon swaps. So many combos rely on fast swaps.

Sounds like eles with the arcane line, which they are FORCED into for Elemental Attunement. Or thieves being FORCED into the Steal line to make Steal actually do something in PVP. Probably a lot of other classes also have this problem.

Or mesmers with the illusions line, which they are FORCED into for illusionary persona. Oh wait…

Using mesmer might not be the best example. Illusionary Elasticity was made baseline because it was taken pretty much only for Mirror Blade, but it was also taken in pretty much every build that could afford it. Now, Mirror Blade is back to 3 bounces baseline and you can’t trait for the 4th again even if you wanted to. So it’s literally worse than it was pre-patch.

iPersona was made baseline because Anet said they wanted all mesmers to utilize shatters since it was the class mechanic. And also to probably kill the clone death builds that just keep making clones and not doing anything with them.

I dont see the problem of making fast hands baseline. Just do it and put a bad minor trait at his place, like we have in defence and tactics.
What we gain? Any buff? we only get the chance of build diversity. Aniway many warriors in pvp will still chose Discipline for the chance to get brawler recovery (the best warrior cleanse actualy, cuz CI is a total fail).

Comparing ele/guardian/mesmer is not a way to see the reason of needing Fast Hands to be baseline, i mean those classes have minor traits that alone can obliterate an entire warrior line (see tactics and defence again), i dont see why you shouldnt want warrior at least have some decent build diversity.

Necrotize.2974:

Using mesmer might not be the best example. Illusionary Elasticity was made baseline because it was taken pretty much only for Mirror Blade, but it was also taken in pretty much every build that could afford it.

No it wasn’t. Watch any EU Go4 stream during May and June before the patch and tell me how many mesmers were running Illusionary Elasticity. Nobody running gs + s/t (the most popular build pre-patch) ran Illusionary Elasticity.

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Necrotize.2974:

Using mesmer might not be the best example. Illusionary Elasticity was made baseline because it was taken pretty much only for Mirror Blade, but it was also taken in pretty much every build that could afford it.

No it wasn’t. Watch any EU Go4 stream during May and June before the patch and tell me how many mesmers were running Illusionary Elasticity. Nobody running gs + s/t (the most popular build pre-patch) ran Illusionary Elasticity.

I don’t play on EU so I never took much of an interest, so I guess sorry for the mistake. But for the longest time, Metabattle listed two popular builds for mesmer(double ranged shatter and Sw/T Shatter), both of which took iElasticity to boost GS burst. Even if it wasn’t as popular on EU, my point still stands. Mirror Blade took one step forward when iElasticity became baselined, then took two steps back when it was reverted because now you couldn’t get the 4th bounce even if you wanted to. That’s just a simple comparison.

Totaly agree with FH becoming baseline. I dont remember any viable warrior build without it.
It seems that ANet always balanced warriors taking FH in acount.
Make it baseline as Warriors already sugested before specialization changes.

I’m a little surprised they didn’t give Warriors anything baseline.

As a Mesmer, I feel like we got more than we should have so I wouldn’t mind spreading a little love to Warriors.

tbh, warrior would still take discipline line, just because it’s that good.
either you buff arms and tactic line..or still taking discipline even without fasthand.

BurrTheKing.8571:

The warrior form post.

For too long Warriors have been FORCED into the Discipline line in order to get Fast Hands. I dare you, name ONE viable build available to Warriors that doesn’t use this Specialization that doesn’t lose out to a build that does. Not going to happen. The way Warrior weapons work, swapping frequently is a must.

Making Fast Hands baseline would open Warriors to several new build options. We could replace Discipline With Tactics and take a Warhorn to make up for Warrior’s Sprint and Brawler’s Recovery. This would also let us bring Shouts and the Defense line but also be able to bring Strength or Arms so we can have damage and support.

While they are different classes, if Mesmer can get a GM like Illusionary Persona made baseline because it was such an important trait, I see no reason why Warrior can’t get a minor trait made baseline. Fast Hands is arguably more important to Warrior than IP is to Mesmer.

Elementalists are in a worst spot than warriors right now, cause they have to take Water and Arcana for any viable PvP build… If ANet has to do a rework with warriors, it also has to rework Ele traits, and if they rework it like mesmer traits… Holy crap… Hopefully they will do it better (if done)

every class has a trait line that they HAVE to take. thieves have to take trickery, maybe they should get the steal cooldown and boon rip/ party buffs from the line as baseline too!

Sure, as long as they make wilderness knowledge baseline for rangers. I can pretty much make the exact same argument you are using to justify this.

All guardians have to spec into virtues.
All thieves have to spec into trickery.
All elementalists have to spec into water and arcana.
All necros have to spec into soul reaping.

If fast hands if to become baseline, all of these classes would also require extra baseline traits.

I have no problems with a change like this, but I disagree on principle. Should eles get everything in water or arcane baseline? They need that to be viable. Or should Mesmers get DE baseline as well? After mantra changes there will be few viable builds that don’t run DE.

Mesmers getting a few things baseline is everyone’s excuse for baseline traits.

Mes pre patch was objectively (I don’t care how many times you got rekt 1v1 because you couldn’t doge a shatter) in a bad spot.

What was made baseline was c/d reductions on utilites (that are still not taken) that were not viable and would punish you for running them. (except maybe portal) Blink getting its range buffed to the range of other non damaging shadow step like skills, and a little bit more armor that was virtually negligible to any standard glass spec while casting a mantra.

The things that were a big deal were:
Elasticity which was THE ONLY way staff was viable and they recently took it off GS, Illusionary persona, a class mechanic based buff that without it made the default mechanic clunky and the entire f1-4 skills unappealing, not to mention should have been default since release. And Phant dmg which was needed due to the disposable nature and the innate amount of counter play built into phants esp post patch, it also made the domination line’s Phant buff trait more appealing since it’s now a significantly more powerful choice (that ppl still take the the other options for lol)

Weapon swap for war is the same as for everyone else who has 2 weapon sets, it is neither a base class mechanic related nor making one specific weapon or utility useless if not taken. It is ultimately a combo related trait as is DE for Mesmers or take your pick of arcane/water for ele, which is about build synergy thus It is a good trait yes but there is no reason for it to be baseline.

Wars may be struggling a little bit right now, but they have their place in the 5v5 meta as well as rampage being a nice carry with enough counter play to justify its strength.

If a change like this was made however it would not justify tears. But it is not needed and is a slippery slope.

I’m not as competitive on my war as I am other proffs so I may be mistaken, but I see no need.

This isn’t really directed at any class really(especially not warrior since I’m not familiar enough with it) so just keep that in mind.

No matter how things get balanced, some things are bound to be more effective than others, that’s why meta builds even become so. Just because something is better than the other options doesn’t mean it should be baselined. Have to find that line I guess between something that is integral to the class and something that’s just really good in the current meta. It’s a big grey area and there is no simple, one size fits all classes answer.

Daishi.6027:

I have no problems with a change like this, but I disagree on principle. Should eles get everything in water or arcane baseline? They need that to be viable. Or should Mesmers get DE baseline as well? After mantra changes there will be few viable builds that don’t run DE.

Mesmers getting a few things baseline is everyone’s excuse for baseline traits.

Mes pre patch was objectively (I don’t care how many times you got rekt 1v1 because you couldn’t doge a shatter) in a bad spot.

What was made baseline was c/d reductions on utilites (that are still not taken) that were not viable and would punish you for running them. (except maybe portal) Blink getting its range buffed to the range of other non damaging shadow step like skills, and a little bit more armor that was virtually negligible to any standard glass spec while casting a mantra.

The things that were a big deal were:
Elasticity which was THE ONLY way staff was viable and they recently took it off GS, Illusionary persona, a class mechanic based buff that without it made the default mechanic clunky and the entire f1-4 skills unappealing, not to mention should have been default since release. And Phant dmg which was needed due to the disposable nature and the innate amount of counter play built into phants esp post patch, it also made the domination line’s Phant buff trait more appealing since it’s now a significantly more powerful choice (that ppl still take the the other options for lol)

Weapon swap for war is the same as for everyone else who has 2 weapon sets, it is neither a base class mechanic related nor making one specific weapon or utility useless if not taken. It is ultimately a combo related trait as is DE for Mesmers or take your pick of arcane/water for ele, which is about build synergy thus It is a good trait yes but there is no reason for it to be baseline.

Wars may be struggling a little bit right now, but they have their place in the 5v5 meta as well as rampage being a nice carry with enough counter play to justify its strength.

If a change like this was made however it would not justify tears. But it is not needed and is a slippery slope.

I’m not as competitive on my war as I am other proffs so I may be mistaken, but I see no need.

You go on to justify the baseline buffs the mesmer received and then disagree with the OP because Fast Hand isn’t part of the class mechanic. Lolz?

Random Weird Guy.3528:

All guardians have to spec into virtues.
All thieves have to spec into trickery.
All elementalists have to spec into WATER AND ARCANA.
All necros have to spec into soul reaping.

I’m the only one that see the problem here?

Random Weird Guy.3528:

All guardians have to spec into virtues.
All thieves have to spec into trickery.
All elementalists have to spec into water and arcana.
All necros have to spec into soul reaping.

If fast hands if to become baseline, all of these classes would also require extra baseline traits.

All warrior builds have to spec into Defense and Discipline. If Fast Hands becomes baseline, then all warriors would have to spec into Defense.

runeblade.7514:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

All guardians have to spec into virtues.
All thieves have to spec into trickery.
All elementalists have to spec into water and arcana.
All necros have to spec into soul reaping.

If fast hands if to become baseline, all of these classes would also require extra baseline traits.

All warrior builds have to spec into Defense and Discipline. If Fast Hands becomes baseline, then all warriors would have to spec into Defense.

Defense isn’t mandatory. CI is hair very powerful as a trait, but it’s less mandatory than it used to be. Especially with the new brawlers Recovery, you can get by. CI is only mandatory when you feel the sense of obligation to max out your condition removal.

Fast hands is mandatory because it’s literally one of the most potent traits in the game… Who doesn’t want that baseline for everyone, honestly? Of course anyone would happily take FH baseline of they had the chance, doesn’t mean it should be.

Though, I’m still for making it a global baseline because 5 sec swaps feel more fun in combat than 10, and balance around it, but that’s a lot of work that isn’t likely to happen.

Can we please stop bringing Eles into this? I only mentioned Illusionary Persona because it’s a trait that got made baseline because it was seen as an essential part of the class to make them function properly.

If you think Ele needs stuff made baseline, please make your own post. I’m focusing on Warrior because I’m the most familiar with how they work/don’t work. They are also just a few minor changes away from having more than double the number of viable builds they currently have.

I am aware that other classes suffer from this, however, now that ANet has set a standard that says that traits can be made baseline if they are needed, now is the time to ask for changes like this.

I tryed several times to play builds without fast hands, warrior is just UNPLAYABLE without it, so i dont wanna hear anyone telling me that a build without this trait does even exist. He is like a dummy running around waiting for that swap to be available.
The main reason have already been said, but is not only that you cant land specific skills without combo between weapon sets.
The warrior dummy is happening mainly because the autoattack cleave is kinda bad in almost all warrior weapons (except maybe axe, but still is a melee attack). Melee autoattack is already a deficit, if you add that to the fact most autoattack of the warrior are so slow in animation, the result will be in warrior running out of skills very quickly and needing that swap faster than other classes. This happens also cuz of the bad utility warrior has, in fact is the class suffering more for the non existing defence traits, forcing him to not having decent offensive utilities. But even with decent defensive traits, all the offensive utilities are bad designed (see stomp kick) or non existing. This is what bring warrior back to be a dummy doing nothing for half the time he would wait for those 9 seconds swap.
If warrior is supposed to be a tanky class then he needs a total remake of tactics and defence line. But with the actualy traits he is not, even necros are way better tank than warrior. So i am assuming arenanet want warrior as a burst class.
To be a burst class you need decent offensive utilities, or ability like shatter mesmers or thief stealth to compensate the time when he is not able to burst. I understand would be stupid warrior to have stealth, so the only way to put him in line with other burst classes is to give him fast hands baseline.
This would be aniway be compensate in comparison from the other burst classes by his easy animation readable skills. In fact, warrior skill animation is the second main reason for FH to be baseline, cuz this trait is the only way for warrior to mess up a bit the opponent read.

People comparing eles traits: your problem with arcana and water is not even close to fast hands warrior problem, in fact you are not loosing any kind of skill rotation or loosing possibility to skills to land by dropping those trait lines, you are not loosing chance to be unpredictable, you not lose chance to drop burst or combos while dropping arcana.
You only lose survivability and ability to regenerate and substain capacity in general.
Is a really different issue that is not affecting your gameplay. You should compare your need of pick water or arcana to the warrior been forced to pick stance utilities, not compare it to fast hands, cuz is a totaly different need.

Shala.8352:

*You only lose survivability and ability to regenerate and substain capacity in general./8
Is a really different issue that is not affecting your gameplay. You should compare your need of pick water or arcana to the warrior been forced to pick stance utilities, not compare it to fast hands, cuz is a totaly different need.

I’m not sure if you understand how bad the ele class is without water/arcane. The need of cantrips would compare to stance utilities and we hadn’t even brought that up…

We literally can not survive in a competitive sense without these two lines. The base of our class, has no built in defense mechs on their weapons or class mechanics. Unlike war, we don’t have the highest HP and Armor, we have the lowest. With the damage the way it is in both condi, and power build if people sneeze in our direction we will die. If we don’t drop condis off yourself in 1-2 seconds we’ve lost half of our hp pool, if we don’t have prot up we just died instantly, and this is with a kittening celestial amulet on, were not even talking about the fact we cant leave the celestial amulet because of the fact our weps are all hybrid, and our only defense is healing and sustain. With the loss of stat custimization our builds were further destroyed into the current state.

Yeah, it’s not just a make it baseline problem, there’s a lot of rework of utilites/elites/traitlines/baselines/weapons basically the entire class. But A-net doesn’t have time for that kitten they gotta sell us stronghold! (seriously a waste of time) so lets just make all the traits classes are locked into baseline and yolo the next patch like they always do.

Lets say baseline fast hands does happen though? You lose out on Warrior sprint and you won’t rotate as fast if you don’t use Discipline.

So in theory STR ARMS DEF would make Soldier Amulet Warrior happen. What weapon set are you going to use to make the most out of STR ARMS DEF Soldier? Mace Shield + Hammer? It has way too many ridiculous casting times, I don’t see how this build will be strong when baseline fast hands happen. Hambow? Learn to count dodges, when the Warrior is using Hammer and Long Bow, it becomes so easy to catch it with something. Skull Crack + GS? Okay, if you go soldiers amulet with this build you DO NOT have any threat unless you stun someone. A good player can just save dodges for Skull Crack and your stuns because you don’t deal damage on GS with soldiers amulet. Not even your hundred blades is gonna bait dodges at point blank. And people are gonna res through your damage if you do manage to down someone in a team fight.

It doesn’t help that you don’t have Warrior sprint to the point where you’ll get kited way easier with but if you take Travelers then you are losing out on a better rune set. Signet of Rage isn’t better than Rampage even with the nerf either, or Banner cause of the meta change.

Baseline Fast Hands ARMS DEF TACTICS with Long Bow, seriously? Who is going to get worked up about this type of spec? There’s a good reason why Long Bow isn’t even good at this meta and it is because the damage that Long Bow puts out can’t out-damage the burst that other classes puts out, yet there are some people who are worked up over a change like baseline fast hands? In what world will ARMS DEF TACTICS even work? ARMS is such a bad trait line with condition builds that baseline fast hands won’t even do anything.

STR DEF TACTICS, what? So you only get tactics for the leg specialist if you try a zerker spec with this combination? I don’t even know what weapons you’re going to use for this trait line. And in what world will “berserker shouts” even work? Even with Zealot’s Amulet it’s still kinda crappy. Don’t tell me Mace + Bow is going to work, the confusion trait is bad. It’s not that good. And Mace is already hard to use.

C’mon people, name me a build that you’re so scared of if baseline fast hands ever happens. I will find a counter argument for that. And don’t tell me “it shouldn’t be baseline because it’s not part of the Warrior mechanics,” name me something that you are afraid of happening with baseline fast hands in practice.

But yeah I don’t believe baseline fast hands will do much. Even if “Soldiers” Warrior comes back, which is probably the thing the OP wants to come back, Zerker Warrior with discipline, D/D Ele or Guardian will still be better.

@BlackTruth I’m actually looking for builds like this or this that are mostly support focused but also bring decent damage, like Guardian currently can.

Those builds might not have the best ammy/rune setups, but as a concept you can get the idea. I really like the idea of the Crusader ammy.

BurrTheKing.8571:

@BlackTruth I’m actually looking for builds like this or this that are mostly support focused but also bring decent damage, like Guardian currently can.

Those builds might not have the best ammy/rune setups, but as a concept you can get the idea. I really like the idea of the Crusader ammy.

None of those builds can compete with Guardian or Ele. None. There is no incentive to pick any of your non-discipline builds over d/d ele or guardian even with baseline fast hands.

A better solution would be to just nerf D/D ele (specifically burning) instead of baseline fast hands and maybe the meta won’t be so enforced.

At the game’s current state, the best role that Warrior will fulfill even with baseline fast hands is “melee carry dps roamer” just because discipline is just too good to not have AND that zerker specs are actually rewarding now.

You can say Thief and Mes “does that better” but that just means you aren’t good at landing long casting times.

BlackTruth.6813:

BurrTheKing.8571:

@BlackTruth I’m actually looking for builds like this or this that are mostly support focused but also bring decent damage, like Guardian currently can.

Those builds might not have the best ammy/rune setups, but as a concept you can get the idea. I really like the idea of the Crusader ammy.

None of those builds can compete with Guardian or Ele. None. There is no incentive to pick any of your non-discipline builds over d/d ele or guardian even with baseline fast hands.

A better solution would be to just nerf D/D ele (specifically burning) instead of baseline fast hands and maybe the meta won’t be so enforced.

At the game’s current state, the best role that Warrior will fulfill even with baseline fast hands is “melee carry dps roamer” just because discipline is just too good to not have AND that zerker specs are actually rewarding now.

I’m not saying that I’m not for a D/D nerf, most players are. That being said, those builds would bring a totally different kind of support than Guardian. Bunker guards have almost no significant damage, while MediGuard support is Aegis, occasional condi cleanse, and occasional Stab. Shout Wars bing consistent healing, condi removal, and might.

Just having access to Berserker’s Power will mean having higher damage than Shout Wars currently have/had. Btw I think that Shouts should be reverted to their old values.

Also, not everyone plays Warrior to be just TPvP meta viable. Some like to run different builds just for fun. Fast Hands not being baseline limits the number of those fun builds dramatically.

ronpierce.2760:

I vote remove it and make 5 second swap baseline across the game! 5 second just has a nicer flow, and everyone has combos between weapons, let’s behonest. Then balance accordingly!

no you are just out to ruin the warrior if not the whole game, mesmer thief ranger dont need fast hands for sure….the warrior does, it’s about build diversty not childish “what he has I want tooooooooo”…srsly. also are you suggesting warrior is OP now… not even close to like a handfull of other classes

Darksteel.8412:

ronpierce.2760:

I vote remove it and make 5 second swap baseline across the game! 5 second just has a nicer flow, and everyone has combos between weapons, let’s behonest. Then balance accordingly!

no you are just out to ruin the warrior if not the whole game, mesmer thief ranger dont need fast hands for sure….the warrior does, it’s about build diversty not childish “what he has I want tooooooooo”…srsly. also are you suggesting warrior is OP now… not even close to like a handfull of other classes

It’s pretty safe to say that a 5 second swap on Guard/Ranger/Thief/Etc would lead to some massively OP combos because the weapons weren’t designed around that being possible, Warrior was.

warrior sprint doesnt even matter compare to the rest of the traits on this line..

Every single minor is strong on discipline.
not as mandatory as fast hand but they are all strong compare to what arms and tactic have to offer, another line with good minors is strength, defense gives ok minors.
line with weakest minors has to be tactic. not even talking about major traits.

all discipline grandmaster traits are strong compare to arms or tactic
doesn’t matter the build, tanky or DPS or condi or anything, there’s just no way to give up discipline even with fast hand baselined.

lighter.2708:

warrior sprint doesnt even matter compare to the rest of the traits on this line..

Every single minor is strong on discipline.
not as mandatory as fast hand but they are all strong compare to what arms and tactic have to offer, another line with good minors is strength, defense gives ok minors.
line with weakest minors has to be tactic. not even talking about major traits.

all discipline grandmaster traits are strong compare to arms or tactic
doesn’t matter the build, tanky or DPS or condi or anything, there’s just no way to give up discipline even with fast hand baselined.

That just means it’ll be time to start brainstorming new minor traits for those weak lines once we get FH baseline.

One battle at a time.