Guild Wars 2

This thread is about trying to understand why the PvP as eSport reception has been poor/difficult for the game for an external audience (audience not necessarily committed to the game).

I was just watching the “Guild Wars 2 – World Tournament Series Finals, Beijing” earlier.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1xGvbYnmbo

I personally enjoy watching it – but I couldn’t help noticing some of the comments below the video: people saying it is boring to watch.

I see where these people are coming from. I don’t think it is boring in the sense that the players are doing very little… On the contrary, they are always busy, always running somewhere and always trying to shift the situation in combat.

And I think this is in fact the problem: there is just too much happening all the time. Even though the game are in fact quite fast paced (you can see the two poor hosts – who do a great job – are still struggling to keep up because the game is so fast).
But because it never changes pace it actually seems “boring” and “repetitive” for an external viewer who cannot appreciate all the different nuances and intricacies in each fight.

In music, you put a drop for your audience to rest, before going full on again to generate some excitement for the next bit coming. GW2 is always “fast paced, full on” and thus fails to generate this excitement.

Compare it to eSport games like DOTA or SC2. These games have “building” phases, where you collect, gather, etc. Generally the pacing is more obvious (regroup/rebuild/attack).
There is very intense combat for a few seconds where the pacing accelerate and spectators are on the edge of their seats.
People feel they’ve watched a defining moment in a game.
Then it drops/slows down again, and get people can get all hyped up for the next phase of the game.

Now, it’s not a criticism of the game as such, as I understand MMORPG and current mechanics make it more difficult to pace a fight.
One of the mechanics that perhaps goes in this direction of “pacing” is the Lords in foefire, where a decisive, higher stake fight can happen there.
The other mechanics (orb, trebuchet, miniboss) are a lot less defining than this.

Well, any thoughts perhaps?

I think one of the main issues is if you do not play this game it is almost impossible to understand anything – Class mechanics

MOBA/FPS games do not have that problem IMO

Narkodx.1472:

I think one of the main issues is if you do not play this game it is almost impossible to understand anything – Class mechanics

MOBA/FPS games do not have that problem IMO

Flamfloz.6732:

And I think this is in fact the problem: there is just too much happening all the time. Even though the game are in fact quite fast paced (you can see the two poor hosts – who do a great job – are still struggling to keep up because the game is so fast).
But because it never changes pace it actually seems “boring” and “repetitive” for an external viewer who cannot appreciate all the different nuances and intricacies in each fight.

In music, you put a drop for your audience to rest, before going full on again to generate some excitement for the next bit coming. GW2 is always “fast paced, full on” and thus fails to generate this excitement.

Compare it to eSport games like DOTA or SC2. These games have “building” phases, where you collect, gather, etc. Generally the pacing is more obvious (regroup/rebuild/attack).
There is very intense combat for a few seconds where the pacing accelerate and spectators are on the edge of their seats.
People feel they’ve watched a defining moment in a game.
Then it drops/slows down again, and get people can get all hyped up for the next phase of the game.

Now, it’s not a criticism of the game as such, as I understand MMORPG and current mechanics make it more difficult to pace a fight.
One of the mechanics that perhaps goes in this direction of “pacing” is the Lords in foefire, where a decisive, higher stake fight can happen there.
The other mechanics (orb, trebuchet, miniboss) are a lot less defining than this.

Well, any thoughts perhaps?

Both of you are right.

Guild Wars 2 is an MMORPG that will attract only people, who are into RPG.
For the rest this game will appear as too complex.

Abaddon.2105:

Guild Wars 2 is an MMORPG that will attract only people, who are into RPG.
For the rest this game will appear as too complex.

Disagree.
You can sell GW2 as PvP game, which has nothing with other MMORPGs, since you can ignore PvE side of it completly and still compete. However to do so, GW2 needs some improvements like voice commands or team voice chat implemented to Arenas etc.

I think it’s an issue that could be resolved by adding different (easier to follow) game modes and adjusting respawn times.

Game modes -

In a conquest mode, where every second counts (b/c points are ticking), you’re not going to see a whole lot of downtime. Any time you spend regrouping is a sacrifice in points. Moreover, it’s harder to follow because there’s often a constant battle going on at two-three different points of the map (which are usually as far from each other as possible). The very nature of conquest discourages single, large group fights, because each team then runs the risk of losing the side points.

A related issue with Conquest is that the strategies involved there are based on rotations, which are generally not obvious to the average viewer. And shoutcasters generally don’t draw much attention to this point, probably because there’s not enough time to explain it all.

I can imagine other GW2 game modes where the fights are more concentrated, and the strategies and pacing are a lot more obvious to the casual viewer. For example, consider a “Guild Wars” type mode, where the objective is to breach the other team’s keep and kill their guild lord, and where respawn times are increased. There’d be positioning and a build-up to engage in the battlefield for control of siege weapons. The team that wins would advance on the other team’s keep and prepare to breach it, then there’d be a conflict at the point of entry, building up towards a fight at the lord’s room.

A true CTF-like game mode would also be pretty easy to follow, b/c you know where the combat will be focused ahead of time.

Respawn times —

If respawn times are too short, then the “build-up phase” between fights becomes a lot shorter — until at some point the fights just seem like a constant grind. For example, if everyone is running bunkers and the TTK is very long compared to the respawn time, then you can reach a situation where 2 players can hold a point indefinitely because when one player goes down, he can respawn and return to the fight before the other player goes down. The result is that the fight becomes less exciting, because it seems like neither side will ever be able to make any progress.

On the other hand, increasing respawn times too much would drastically increase the snowball effect of winning. This may make individual fights more exciting to watch (b/c the consequences of winning or losing are greater), but the overall match may be less exciting after a team fight b/c there’d literally be nothing going on except uncontested point-capping.

It doesn’t help that the optimal respawn time probably varies based on team comps and maps.

Narkodx.1472:

I think one of the main issues is if you do not play this game it is almost impossible to understand anything – Class mechanics

MOBA/FPS games do not have that problem IMO

Even if viewers don’t fully understand all the class mechanics, I think they can still enjoy watching a PvP match if they were able to understand the strategy and pacing of the game.

For example, I know almost nothing about the LoL heroes, yet I am able to enjoy watching LoL matches because it’s very easy to follow the fights and the team’s strategies. Conversely, many GW2 PvPers — who presumably understand the mechanics of the game — don’t seem to enjoy watching PvP matches (if the forum posts and viewer counts are any indication). One reason might be that they don’t perceive the strategy involved in the rotations and how teams work to force favorable matchups.

This was discussed in another thread several weeks/month ago and I really liked one of the responses in that thread. Really wish I remember who it was who said it…

But ultimately it came down to the fact that this game doesn’t have any easily identifiable big plays that are easy to spot and exciting to watch. The main reason for this is because we’re always stuck in this bunker and condi meta. It’s not fun to watch, it’s hard to tell what’s going on, and its even harder to tell at what point in battle shifted into the other player’s favor.

It just has to be casted in a broader perspective. Paying attention to individual skills like is done in LoL is impossible with what is going on. Understanding the big picture of why they did things and good moves for them to do next in a match is better for viewership.

ResJudicator.7916:

I think it’s an issue that could be resolved by adding different (easier to follow) game modes and adjusting respawn times.
…
A true CTF-like game mode would also be pretty easy to follow, b/c you know where the combat will be focused ahead of time.

I’ve always loved CTF, and I would love to see this mode implemented in GW2 – even if it never becomes a competitive mode for balance reasons.
But yes, I agree that new game modes could definitely help.

Spirit Watch is basically CTF. Thing i’d consider “BIG” moments.

1.)Knockback to Point neutralized/captured
2.)Thieves decapping far…. sneaky sneaky
3.) Clutch revives this can be seen many ways. Banners/Knockback enemy to full revive etc….
4.)Instant kills think mesmer/thief combo for example #REKT
5.)Clutch lord/buffs
6.)portals/speed buffs to keep point captured (think for example “omg is that d/d ele going to be fast enough to get to point A before warrior neutralizes it! OMG yes he did he got there with a tick left to neutralize! omg clutch #d/deleop”)
7.) Epic team fights. Similar to clutch revive. 5v5 (for example) team A downs 2 player from team B while A has 1 down. Team B plays clutch is able to either down another person, revive or kill the 1 downed team A member and snowball fight into a win! omg clutch team B!

this is just 7 but I can give you a more detailed list if you’d like. The thing right now with GW2 people don’t understand the game yet. Shoutcasters are the main solution to this by better explaining situations and following players who they think have a high chance at that time to create a clutch play (see list for examples). Shoutcasters need dedicated camera men who follow each play smoothly and coordinate well with the shoutcasters for each play (optional but will increase performance overall because each is focused on their role not multi roles). Shoutcasters have to direct peoples attention to the situation with the highest chance of clutch play while simultaneously letting everyone know what is going on in other parts of the maps. Follow biggest chance of clutch while keeping tabs on map (map awareness) to change to other location depending on situation.

I really like the shoutcasters for GW2 but their is room for improvement I think. But I do agree that since pace can be so fast and so many things happen it gets hard to focus in on one thing. Personally I really liked the way the camera guys/gals for DPS handled their stream. They had main screen on fights and mini screen on potential good fights.

Abaddon.2105:

Narkodx.1472:

I think one of the main issues is if you do not play this game it is almost impossible to understand anything – Class mechanics

MOBA/FPS games do not have that problem IMO

Flamfloz.6732:

And I think this is in fact the problem: there is just too much happening all the time. Even though the game are in fact quite fast paced (you can see the two poor hosts – who do a great job – are still struggling to keep up because the game is so fast).
But because it never changes pace it actually seems “boring” and “repetitive” for an external viewer who cannot appreciate all the different nuances and intricacies in each fight.

In music, you put a drop for your audience to rest, before going full on again to generate some excitement for the next bit coming. GW2 is always “fast paced, full on” and thus fails to generate this excitement.

Compare it to eSport games like DOTA or SC2. These games have “building” phases, where you collect, gather, etc. Generally the pacing is more obvious (regroup/rebuild/attack).
There is very intense combat for a few seconds where the pacing accelerate and spectators are on the edge of their seats.
People feel they’ve watched a defining moment in a game.
Then it drops/slows down again, and get people can get all hyped up for the next phase of the game.

Now, it’s not a criticism of the game as such, as I understand MMORPG and current mechanics make it more difficult to pace a fight.
One of the mechanics that perhaps goes in this direction of “pacing” is the Lords in foefire, where a decisive, higher stake fight can happen there.
The other mechanics (orb, trebuchet, miniboss) are a lot less defining than this.

Well, any thoughts perhaps?

Both of you are right.

Guild Wars 2 is an MMORPG that will attract only people, who are into RPG.
For the rest this game will appear as too complex.

Exactly. Gw2 is an mmorpg. We don’t need to focus in becoming esport because that will result in oversimplifying all the skills, mechanics and reduce the customization.

Look at other mobas, they have basically 1 map with 1 game mode, less customization and few skills. Gw2 need more pvp modes like: death match, gvg, etc. But as long as the game keeps pusing the wannabe esport philosophy we will never get new features or new game modes for pvp.

The lack of new pvp options makes the playerbase move towards dungeons/wvw/living story/other content.

Narkodx.1472:

I think one of the main issues is if you do not play this game it is almost impossible to understand anything – Class mechanics

MOBA/FPS games do not have that problem IMO

Really?

I dislike watching FPS esport vids, because often I dunno what killed whom and from where. Killing someone through wall or w/e. I can grasp the feeling when actually playing, but I can’t understand the whole thing about it when just watching.

MOBA – yeah, because it’s not a problem for newbie to grasp the idea on first looks what char does what and what minion does what and when….

Same with RTS games.

Every single eSport game has the same problem – people when watching tournament videos, know what’s going on(experienced players) or dunno kitten is going on but like it because it’s flashy(newbies/gonna download soon© ).

GW2 problem is lack of serious advertisement just like F2P games have.
All adds I see, is LoL, Dota, Starcraft(not anymore tho), sometimes CS.

For past 1 year, I didn’t see a single Guild Wars 2 add, even on yt.
That’s the first and biggest problem Gw2 is facing.
Without serious advertisements, Gw2 has no chance for bigger in-game population and no chance for higher popularity and interest from eSport point of view.

And F2P model or B2P model has nothing to do with it.

It is the game mode.

Thinks of it this way, if you never played LOL, Dota or FPS, how long would it take you to understand their gamemode without commenter explaining thing to you every second?

Class mechanics? No, it is not the big deal here.
Not everyone who is watching the stream is a pro Esport player that he want to understand Class mechanics by watching Tournament stream. Most of the time when people are watching Tournament Stream they want to see something cool like awesome fight between players or team. But do they see that in our stream? And instead they have to learn about our new unexciting gamemode instead.

I think the problem is more with the shoutcaster presentation of the game than the game itself.

Part of the reason conquest was chosen was that it’s more obvious to a spectator who is ahead or who has the momentum at any given point. And that’s true when you look at the map level. You can see the score, who has more nodes, which are in conflict, and who’s pushing their opponents back.

However, most shoutcasting of GW2 focuses on individual battles where it’s very hard to tell what is going on or who has the advantage. The scope of the game as a whole is lost. You don’t see the thief sneaking away for a decap or moving up to a teamfight in anticipation of picking someone off. You can’t easily tell where the DPS players are and where the bunkers are.

I think DPS had the best shoutcasting approach to GW2. They had a split screen and each commentator would look at a section of the map or a node. When the action picked up at one place or there was a key move, it was conveyed immediately. They could switch between screens to focus on that key move. None of those “oh hey look, they decapped this other node while we were watching this fight”. And that decap was just as important as the clutter of particle effects we were watching for the last 2 minutes.

GW2 combat is face paced but fights are constantly interrupted by controls, stealth and movements skills.

Passives are certainly not helping for the show aswell.

But for the viewer i think the main issue is the absence of body block . Melee fights look messy when both players are on the exact same spot trying to stay on the “skill cancelling zone” of each others.

it’s a shame cause combat animations are among the best i’ve seen and
they can fix it just by enabling the melee assist option for everyone in pvp.

Siva Mira.3546:

It is the game mode.

Every Tournament game mode is the same.

-Three Nodes to capture.
(Extremely simple to grasp)

-Something that effects these Nodes
(treb/stillness/tranquility)

The game mechanics… along with its pvp cheststyle ways, is what makes this game ever so complicated. Even pvp players don’t fully grasp it

Example
I roam far all game… 1v1 and cap the node. Wiped due to a double respawn. 1v1’d again and capped a node. A player from mid leaves to 2v2 me at far. I wipe.
I respawn and a team member decides to follow me at far.
Yelled in map chat that he’s not needed at far, but mid or home instead. We start arguing about me continually dying at far, we need mid, etc etc. A second team member argues against me.
(all the while we’ve had mid and home… but later lose mid)

After we both wiped, I continued to pressure far and 1v1 and decapping it efficiently. Every time my team members looked up, they probably saw me dying or respawning. What they didn’t know was that the hunter I continually rolled died twice as much as I did. My pressure at far always brought two people there, giving my team a better chance. Hardly anyone roamed to our home. My actions helped my team tremendously.

This is why commentators have a hard time keeping up. They talk about the game as a whole. They can’t focus on both, far and home and mid. They talk about rotations, score board, which node just got taken, and stillness/tranq/treb/lord.

What Tournaments need
Tournament highlights. The NFL has it after every football game. We never hear about a “special move” that Wakkey did at far or Phantaram 1v2ing home. No replay video of how Abjured captured three nodes, nearly winning round two in the tournament. There’s never talk about strategies used.

More excitement must be had!